Indian Roads Thread

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 22 Apr 2013 10:24

RamaY wrote:

A Road in Hyderabad. If we can solve the Parking and pedestrian problem, the roads should be reasonably un-congested.

Look at the one and half lane each way bridge. It can atmost fit a bus and an auto at one time. The bridge was laid during CBN's first term. The idea was to not have any signals at any crossing. If the motorist has to go straight, he took the bridge. If he has to go left or right, he took the part of the road to the left of the bridge and made a left or right under the bridge, again no signals. Similar bridges were constructed all over hyd. At the time of construction of the bridges (I think > 14), the traffic was very light and it made sense. Now it is a night mare. Neither the bridge is sufficient for the straight traffic nor the other road is sufficient for traffic turning under the bridge. Oh, and now there are traffic signals under the bridge. Another well intentioned project but a failure of epic proportions. It shows how no body in India had any frigging idea of what was coming. I think hyderabad should bite the bullet, just raze the bridges and make them all a regular crossing.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 22 Apr 2013 19:43

Hyderabad has wide swaths of land they can expand outwards right, better start on a plan to decongest the city and give incentives in terms of better infra for people to start moving away. There is only so much density all our cities can take.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 22 Apr 2013 21:25

Bade wrote:There is only so much density all our cities can take.

Agree. Our cities need to reduce the occupant load from 50,000 to 100,000 per sqkm to 10,000 to 20,000 per sqkm. Though I'm not sure how we get there...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Apr 2013 22:23

for that divert development to villages. ask abdul kalam ji, he has answers.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 22 Apr 2013 22:27

villages are just outside of indian cities, at least most.

So keep developing the cities. Leave the villages alone. I support increasing the city foot print, it is easier to provide for first class infra that way than to spread it around.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 01 May 2013 21:33

Did Kol-Del-Hyd-Kol. ORR and DGE are excellant. I think our highways are going to reach global stds if the NHAI program is pursued with and expressway programs started in right earnest. However, if I were to compare Indian cities to international stds the main issue boils down to congestion. Except for premium housing, the rest are extremely congested and poorly planned with Gurgaon doing slightly better than Hyd and Kol the worst. It shows non-existent urban planning. Don't know when local governance will become aspirational and adhere to international stds.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 02 May 2013 09:42

Bade wrote:If this is the attitude of the educated and well to do, what reforms is going to help with road etiquette and safety. People look at all these as birthrights and matter of privilege.

The father of the boy who did this stunt has been now charge sheeted by the police. I know the fine would be a paltry amount, bu the police was forced to to take action. 100% literate state and the typical neo-rich Gelf wheeler-dealer mentality, that is all was here to see.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 03 May 2013 22:42

X-post from A nation on the march thread.

Slideshow: Delhi's Kashmere Gate ISBT gets airport like feel.

I used to board buses from this ISBT 10 years back when I was in college. It is truly remarkable that they've been able to clean up to a standard befitting the national capital. Love the stainless steel pillars and wall covers - much better than those generic white tiles that stain so easily.
Kudos!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 May 2013 23:12

blur rto b@$turds must be stinking rich now with all their baksheesh
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/325 ... chaos.html

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 06 May 2013 11:17

Honestly, how is RTO at fault here?

Motorcyclists switching to cars, car-owners shifting to gas-guzzling SUVs, and SUV drivers graduating to more fancy wheels. Hardly sustainable, this heady cocktail might be. But caught up in their aspirational islands of power and money, the riders will just not stop. “This aspiration (to flaunt wealth, cars as status symbols) is a cultural and social issue. You cannot stop it. Even if a person stays bang opposite a bus stand, he will still buy that car and drive it.” The man making this telling observation is M A Saleem himself, the city’s Additional Commissioner of Police (Traffic and Security).

Tasked with the responsibility of handling the city’s humungous traffic, giving it a semblance of order against mounting odds, Saleem knows the issues of that aspiration too well. “Even if the Namma Metro work is completed, I don’t see a substantial reduction in the vehicular population. Only about 10 to 20 per cent of the vehicles will be off the roads, particulary on the main arterial roads,” says he.

But as the relatively poor response to the Bangalore Metropolitan Transport Service (BMTC)’s monthly Bus Days have shown, public transport is generally not the first choice.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 06 May 2013 11:38

Bade wrote:http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/k ... ostpopular
If this is the attitude of the educated and well to do, what reforms is going to help with road etiquette and safety. People look at all these as birthrights and matter of privilege.

True phata abduls live in massa while TFTAs live in Bangalore, Kerala.

Btw is that a real Ferrari...it looks a bit fake.

vina · Post by **vina** » 06 May 2013 11:57

Btw is that a real Ferrari...it looks a bit fake.

In addition to the Ferrari, they also are said to own a couple of Maseratis and Porsches and Bentleys as well.

Also, 'Umble Farmer's Vaaris' house used to have a Maserati and a Porsche parked inside , visible most times. Also see a red Audi R8 and Porsche Cayman S trundling around a lot in the JP Nagar/Jayanagar areas in Bangalore Kerala.

But that said, these oomph car guys are mostly these real estate /politico / ejjukashunal entrepreneur types, who in turn are politicos. The real big ones (like the "Corporate Jarnails" .. Sun TV owners, IT Vity Field Marshals -Most Revered, 85 Percenter, and others) don't drive around in Oomph cars much, but a couple of the Industry Jarnails have private planes. They tend to be more discreet with Merc/BMW/Jag saloons (7L and S class level are preferred vahans)

See a R8 or a Porsche kind of sports car, you know it is a real estate type or a politico. The Audi Q7 types are wanna be Jarnails, mostly Karnails or lesser ranks, with a smaller Wang to flaunt in the first place.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 May 2013 13:19

mass leaders usually ride in white scorpios, ford endeavours, cr-v to get around and meet and greet the people. chauffer driven. on long tours they rent TT or bigger vans and buses with bathrooms and executive seating.

the fancy kit like sports cars & superbikes are given as birthday gifts to sons and grandsons. almost 0% of politicians sons are in salaried jobs. almost 100% are running some business or just lying around burning money.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 06 May 2013 17:05

Marten wrote:If Mr Saleem had to travel each morning by the BMTC buses (even the Volvos if he so chose), he would know everything gets crushed. There is absolutely no space. Some of us have indeed switched to public transportation, but the additional cost is that of time and lack of physical comfort. It compares about the same with Mumbai locals, so I'm used to it. Many from other cities are not. Public transport in BLR is decent, and yet inadequate. If they want folks to switch over, the frequency of the more comfortable buses needs to be higher.

Well, if more people travel by bus, BMTC will automatically deploy more buses. The real problem is the last mile connectivity- between bus stop and home, and bus stop and workplace. If someone comes up with an innovative solution for this, most of the two wheelers will opt for buses. Cannot comment on cars though.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 06 May 2013 18:23

Marten wrote:It's not easy but there is no alternative.

Looks like there is a solution. But not widely publicised or encouraged.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/288 ... metro.html

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 06 May 2013 21:14

Raja Bose wrote:True phata abduls live in massa while TFTAs live in Bangalore, Kerala. Btw is that a real Ferrari...it looks a bit fake.

I wouldn't know the difference, they all look like horses with four wheels to me.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 May 2013 21:28

Buses don’t have the carry capacity to deal with the needs of a super dense city like most of India.
For public transport to be effective it has to remain cheap.
Buses simply can not do this. The numbers do not pencil out.
They can only act as localized feeders to a proper mass transport system.

Only a proper mass transportation system can deal with these loads.
Namma metro is the only way forward. The present route is only a down payment.
Bengluru Kerala will eventually need something on the order of 400-500 km of metro lines.

Investment of Rs 100,000+ crore will be necessary.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 06 May 2013 22:01

What do you do in a City like Chennai where one sweats like a paquee politician before a army jihadi? just 2 minutes of walk even at around 10 am and you are toast. No matter how many AC buses you introduce here you will still have a very physically uncomfortable journed to office and back. At least with the 2 wheeler you will only feel the pain in the signal.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 07 May 2013 11:10

Marten wrote:Some of us have indeed switched to public transportation, but the additional cost is that of time and lack of physical comfort
....
Public transport in BLR is decent, and yet inadequate

I personally feel that BMTC is doing all the best things it can. On that line I also appreciate the Traffic Police (which Mr. Saleem commands) struggling to some how get the vehicles moving. But I guess it is the way Bangalore has grown which is also now causing problems. Mumbai had the advantage of having a good railway network even during 1950s. The city just developed on both sides of the railway lines. So a kind of trunk route is already available (the branches going in all directions from the Railway Station on the trunk route). Where as in Bangalore people are spread out (home wise and job wise) all around, and need to criss-cross the city as well.

prashanth wrote:The real problem is the last mile connectivity- between bus stop and home, and bus stop and workplace

Agree with you. Another aspect which I feel make people use two wheelers or cars are the irregular working hours (partly because of the office work culture, or because the lack of discipline of the individual). The advantage of having a vehicle is that you can march out the moment you decide to close down for the day. Where as if the person has to rely on public transport then he would have to wait for a convenient bus to come up and also plan for the various connecting buses as well (if he has to change buses). If most of the private big-wig companies (mainly IT-Vity) can gurantee that their employees can move out a certain fixed time (or allow work from home options) many people would plan their day well and opt for BMTC. BTW, BMTC now rakes a good profit by running large number of buses on the Electronics City->Madiwala/BTM route. Lots of techies now opt for this. Again the biggest advantage being that the techie knows that every 5 min there is a bus out on this route.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 07 May 2013 21:02

Marten,

Forgive me if I wrote that poorly.
Buses will be required as well. Public transport must be integrated.

Metro is good for long distance 3-4-20km+ type commutes. Bus is good for short 2 km runs.
Metro is like a road. It is capital investment. Such investment is unlikely to directly pay back.
But it will be one step to making Bengluru livable. City can decongest and spread out a bit better.
Property values all along routes will increase significantly.
IMO much more than the 100,000 crore capital investment.

100,000 crore seems like a lot of money but it will be spent over 25-40 years.
So annual investment will only be 2000 to 3000 crore.
IMO by 2025 it will be a rounding error type number.
KA budget this year, Rs 118,000 Crore.

Keep in mind this idea. Even projections 15 years back showed Bengluru, Kerala becoming a 25 Million person mega city by 2040. Much sooner per a couple of recent projections.
This is true of Chennai as well. We need to be realistic about our population projections and what our cities are going to need.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 07 May 2013 21:59

agree with theo.
eventually dense rail based service has to be the core of mass transit. the basic issue is establishing right of way. Luxury buses are a distraction, they still compete for right of way with general traffic. bulk of the cost is in establishing RoW. might as well, maximize capacity per $ of RoW. buses and better autos forming the feeders.

another aspect is increasing the limits on densities along the corridor.

on the return on investment, we should also consider if the status quo is acceptable. how much fuel is burnt at signals, how much productivity and life is lost on roads. if mothers have to spend 1-1.5 hours each way in transit, what good does it do? something has to give and will give eventually. better money than anything else.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 07 May 2013 23:13

ORR was a major lost opportunity. One more is BETL. The medians along NICE road can be of use.
the IR network within city remains under utilized.

In a sense all the easy pickings have already been taken. hard work here on.

there is no city planner & no traffic engineer beyond those that sit in dilli.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 May 2013 01:09

Dig tunnels under the ORR if surface above is not available for metro. Same along all major thorough-fares. Worrying too much about cost has been the bane of development in India. Ban cars on ORR and other major roads during commute times of the day (limited to buses only) once metro is up and running everywhere within the city limits.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 08 May 2013 01:27

These calculations may have changed but even way back when I did them, the cost was the same or even much less to elevate metro lines than it cost to build it along the ground and elevate/underpass everything else.. The reason was that it is more expensive to get fuel powered vehicles over/under the rail lines at grade than it is to keep the two more or less separate. In elevated/underground metro people go up and down, this is far more efficient.

With modern metro equipment it is far cheaper to avoid land acquisition entirely and build along road medians and rights of way. Of course planning for elevated lines would definitely help as well.

In fact if the railways will allow it, private companies many times have tried to acquire the Mumbai WR/CR right of way to bury the railways underground and use the land for commercial purposes. Just the land cost is more than enough to do this in Mumbai and I fully expect it to be done sometime. It is a terrible opportunity cost for Mumbai at present. Every KM of the 200’ ROW is roughly 15 acres of prime Mumbai land. There is literally 1000’s of railway acres trapped in Mumbai. What is an acre of land worth in Mumbai these days?
----------------------------------------------

Yes! Car and vehicle restrictions (very high tax) and outright bans are coming to India soon. Everyone in city administration knows this, just can't tell the public yet. After metros are built and are ubiquitous....

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 08 May 2013 05:05

you mean replacing existing tracks with underground ones?
there are some places in ny where i have seen mid-rises straddling over existing 6/8 lanes higways. is that a bad idea?

apparently, in HYD they have banned vehicles older than a certain age. i wonder how that is enforceable?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 May 2013 05:26

^cops confiscate and junks it?
fines above the value of the vehicle if the user wants it?

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 08 May 2013 07:15

what if i register my vehicle in warangal but ply it in hyderabad?

KSKumar · Post by **KSKumar** » 08 May 2013 16:05

shaardula wrote:what if i register my vehicle in warangal but ply it in hyderabad?

As far as I knowthe ban is only for Commercial Vehicles and Govt. Vehicles, older than 15 years.

Does not really apply to private vehicles.

If you buy it in Warangal and ply it in Hyd., and the vehicle's age falls within that ban order, it is liable to be seized.

In Practice, you are unlikely to be caught. Unless, of course, the vehicle is spewing smoke like a chimney-stack.

I see very few vehicles in such terrible condition nowadays. So, a vehicle that is so aged, will likely stick out like a sore thumb if it not in excellent repair.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 May 2013 05:47

build new cities around older cities, with better facilities that lasts centuries. it is much cheaper.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 09 May 2013 17:04

thanks ksk.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 18 Jun 2013 22:39

Road building revival offers rare hope for infra overhaul

The most significant policy change is that the government has moved away from its much-vaunted but troubled public-private partnership (PPP) model to fund projects.

Under the PPP model, developers finance construction out of their own pocket, often in exchange for the right to charge toll fares.

The government will revert to a form of contract where it funds part of the road building, taking on more of the risk of the project itself, said a top government official, speaking on condition of anonymity.

To give some idea of the scale of the change, the government will fund 70 percent of the 9,600 kilometres (5,965 miles) of road projects that it aims to award this fiscal year.

That is a sharp departure from the goal set earlier by India's Planning Commission to build 60 percent of roads in public-private partnership.

India awarded less than 2,000 kilometres worth of new road construction contracts in the last fiscal year, against a target of 9,500 kilometres.

To get investment in the sector moving again, the government has tweaked its policy so that developers no longer have to wait for clearance from forest authorities to start construction - a hassle that had stalled projects in the past.

Another boon is the central bank's move to reclassify loans to road builders as secured loans rather than unsecured loans, which would give more comfort to banks to lend to projects.

Interesting data on road network length and density comparison with China.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 22 Jun 2013 15:58

MOVE WITH CAUTION:A straw-laden lorry moving along the Tiruchi-Thanjavur national highway. These lorries block the view for the vehicles trailing them and cause accidents at the time of overtaking. Courtesy: The Hindu

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 22 Jun 2013 21:04

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1130620/j ... cXI55z-vfV

In the Project Shivalik area, on the Rishikesh-Joshimath-Mana road, the BRO reported 26 major landslides, formation-breaches at five locations, a washout of the Rudraprayag bye-pass and full formation washouts at two places. Between Rishikesh and Dharasu, there were 27 major landslides and formation-breaches at five locations. Between Dharasu and Gangotri, there were 10 landslides and four formation-breaches. Between Rudraprayag and Gaurikund, part of the way used by pilgrims to Kedarnath, there were four major landslides, four formation-breaches, a cracked abutment and the washout of a steel bridge.

Maybe for true all season roads, mean one will have to drill through the young mountain range.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jun 2013 21:09

We have to move into upgrading infrastructure, and further build new infrastructure. Lots of investment, that require more private participation. Time is running out for desh.. we might to re-invent the wheels, perhaps newer type of fuel, system and machines...to reach optimized levels of infrastructure sustenance and advanced living capability. Roads needs big-time investments... and it was like that, and it will remain so in the future.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Jun 2013 18:48

They are using this in new orleans for constructing concrete structures that actually absorbs rain water and send it direct to ground, and there by reduce flooding.

very apt technology for indic residential areas, roads, building ground area cover, etc.

https://www.google.com/search?q=permeab ... 27&bih=886

rain water harvesting tech!!!

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 23 Jun 2013 19:34

You would still need a good drainage system. If your drainage system lacks the required capacity, or it's not maintained properly (frequently the case in India, because of corrupt/thieving politicians) then you'll still have flooding. With heavy rainfall the absorbing layer will get saturated very quickly and if the sewerage/drainage-canals are blocked or insufficient then even this new concrete won't prevent flooding.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Jun 2013 21:03

No doubt about it.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 23 Jun 2013 22:12

The drainage system is ONLY for overflow conditions. In the USA typically 2" and above in a 24 hour period. Other wise the water percolates through the filter fabric into the soil over time, sometimes months. If the drainage facility is block, overflows, damaged, the water will rise through the permeable structure and will then sheet flow. There are several installations I know that have NO drainage attached at all, it is merely optional.

IIRC the borg warner facility in Chennai used pervious concrete for its parking area. Over time I expect more of chennai to be overlaid with this system as it works with the existing rain water harvesting structures. A single 1000 sqft parking lot can easily hold 50,000 liters of water and allow it all to percolate.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Jun 2013 22:23

Theo, talking of parking lots do they not make economic sense to build by using private money. With all the street side parking blocking half a lane in most cities was wondering why it has not taken off in India like elsewhere. The only place I have seen them are in malls which is usually free.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 23 Jun 2013 22:43

Yes, I have said this before. Folks buy car with a parking spot and then park on street clogging it up, they are stealing land. My dads neighbor has a car but no parking in the apartment, so he has parked it for the last 6 months with a canvas cover right on the street. He is afraid to move it as he will lose the spot. Essentially a squatter.

Coming to building private parking, it will happen once cities start towing all the illegally parked cars. Once there is a severe cost for bad behavior people will pay to avoid it. In any case Indian cities are so cramped I don't think even 20% of folks can ever own cars. It is a physical impossibility. You may have a parking spot but not road to go anywhere!