Indian Railways Thread

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Oct 2012 11:04

^^ IIRC, the ACD had the issue of not being able to distinguish between same and parallel track trains and so generating too many spurious alarms

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 17 Oct 2012 11:59

SSridhar wrote:& ACD (Anti Collision Device).

ACD (or atleast the first version of it) also had a problem that it would automatically apply the brakes when it senses the danger. The problem was with the sensing part

. And this led to situations where the train stopped on the track when there was no signal behind it to protect it. For example between a Distant and Home Signal, where the distant signal does not have a STOP option. A second train following would have had a rude surprise, and lead to a rear-ending as well. It seems in many divisions engine drivers kept the ACD switched off or on stand by mode only.

Abhijeet · Post by **Abhijeet** » 17 Oct 2012 12:50

The system went into production with this basic flaw?

Do they do no testing at all?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Oct 2012 20:15

abhijeet -> before making the statement, please read from the article Chaanakya posted

It’s a path-breaking technology and we would like to complete all the trials within a year.

Abhijeet · Post by **Abhijeet** » 18 Oct 2012 00:25

I was referring to the ACD, which seems like an earlier technology. From Sachin's quote, it seems like this was a system that was actually deployed -- since only then would engine drivers be running trains with it.

Sachin wrote:It seems in many divisions engine drivers kept the ACD switched off or on stand by mode only.

Rear-ending when the system was switched on seems like a slightly serious issue that should have been resolved before it got into the hands of engine drivers.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 18 Oct 2012 01:04

IIRC the ACD had 2 units. One in the Engine and one at the very end. The system would compare the location of these two units to every other. The real problems occurred when the unit alignment changed, for instance in tunnels of curves or even while changing tracks. Nonsense signals would be sent that would cause all the other units on other trains to panic and stop the train as well.

I have said many times that the Railways are fooling themselves thinking they can get this sort of cheap a$$ system to work. This way they don't have to go through the hard work of actually upgrading the full system. This is the wrong approach as no railways in the world uses such systems as even a back-up.

This is clearly a case of common sense being wrong.

The only thing that will work for India is a full blown in-cab signaling system with automatic train shut down. Such automatic systems should not be left to the individual trains/loco pilots to operate.

The only fool proof way to know a line is fouled is with sensors at the permanent way level. This is how the world operates.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Oct 2012 10:02

Travelled for a couple of times in last two months along the Kokan Railway route , I am surprised to find they opted for a single track ( except on stations ) and more than that no provision is made to add a 2nd track in the future if that expansion takes place in the future.

Any reason why this was done so ? To be a single track looks bad but no provision to add another looks worse

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 18 Oct 2012 10:14

Theo_Fidel wrote:The only fool proof way to know a line is fouled is with sensors at the permanent way level. This is how the world operates.

I remember reading a book way back in early 1990s which had some mentioned about ACD in UK (it was "British Rail" days). Every loco had a device in its underbelly, which could pick up signals from a device placed in between the tracks. A device reads the signals and gives a visual and audio (bell indication) of the signal position ahead. Driver needs to acknowledge, or else the train loco takes suo moto decisions

. This seemed to be a technology which waspiloted in UK in late 1970s.

One story I have heard is that this could not be tried out in India, because devices placed in between tracks could get stolen. Times have changed, so I dont know if some one would try to do that even now. Or else, if that still happens now; how about using a similar concept but place the devices in a bit more higher locations (on signals masts, telephone posts, or on station premises).

BTW: The current track circuiting mechanism is a kind of sensor at the permenant way level. Such track circuits ensure that signals cannot be set, in contradition to the points set and also indicates train position on the "signal panel" at the Station Master's room.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 18 Oct 2012 10:32

How has times changed ??? they will still get stolen

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 18 Oct 2012 10:38

Putting sensors on the HVAC pillars is the only option. Even the reflectors on the highways/city-streets get stolen.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 18 Oct 2012 20:39

Sorry but that is BS. It will get stolen argument has been used umpteen times by babu's who don't want to do their job and adopt new technology. As soon as a sensor is tampered with, the system will know immediately and RPF can respond in seconds. The sensor between the rails is old technology.

The latest systems use the rails themselves to communicate directly with devices inside the locomotive. What Sachin points out is a wireless in-cab system in UK. The rail based systems need simple wheel counters and position indicators that then cable back to a box placed underground preferably, if tampering is an issue. Personally I don't think tampering is an issue as the signal systems on IR are just as exposed and there are very few theft issues.

The real problem is Station Masters and various thelas will lose their powers under this system and essentially become redundant. It is also not cheap. IR needs to adopt it on a zone by zone basis instead of messing with these piece meal stand alone weak solutions.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 18 Oct 2012 23:57

Even maintaining beacons for high accuracy positioning for consumer use cases is an expensive proposition, and requires heavy maintenance. IMHO, some train based radar warning solutions can be the only solution. Let us agree to disagree.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 19 Oct 2012 10:49

Theo_Fidel wrote:IR needs to adopt it on a zone by zone basis instead of messing with these piece meal stand alone weak solutions.

There is another Anti-Collission Device which is getting experimented, AFAIK. Known as TCAS, this device is based on RFID etc. Again from what I could understand is this about placing devices on the sleepers and various devices getting inputs from them.

But I guess if we are thinking about a very large system which controls multiple trains, across a huge geographical area we are no where close. It would be in smaller patches, with Stations Masters, Yard Masters, Cabin Men etc. still controlling small patches after taking instructions from the Div. Controllers.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Oct 2012 12:08

the Hindu - very slow pace of work if mysore-kushalagara will take 5 yrs across essentially flat terrain with no major rivers or hills to cross in 5 yrs cheen would build a grid of railway lines between mysore, knagara, madikeri, kutta, hassan, chikmagalur, halebidu and so on....

'Work on Mysore-Madikeri railway line to begin in 6 months'

OUR BUREAU

MANGALORE, OCTOBER 18:
The work on the Mysore-Madikeri broad gauge railway line will begin in the next six months, according to K.H. Muniyappa.

The Union Minister of State for Railways, who was in Mangalore on Thursday to flag off the Yashvantpur-Mangalore-Karwar train, said the proposed line would be taken up on a 50:50 cost-sharing basis with the Karnataka Government at an estimated cost of Rs 700 crore.

He said the 90-km Mysore-Kushalnagar stretch on this line is expected to be completed in five years. “It will be a proud moment for the people of Coorg as the project would put the district on the railway map of India for the first time,” he said.

Indian Railways has taken up several projects on cost-sharing basis in Karnataka to achieve the twin objectives of connectivity to the hinterland and economic growth of backward areas.

The cost-sharing projects, with an outlay of Rs 6,000 crore, are in progress in this regard. Of this, Rs 3,600 crore is being shared by the Karnataka Government, he said.

To improve the railway infrastructure in Karnataka, Rs 15,623 crore has been sanctioned for new lines and track doubling in the last three years. This includes 356 km of new lines and 568 km of track doubling, he added.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 20 Oct 2012 19:51

Perhaps the only project on which IR is working with cheeni efficiancy is the churchgate -virar elevated project in mumbai. It requires lots of land and Delhi sultanate is pushing the local mansabdar to expedite the land ~~grab~~ acquisition so as to complete it before battle of 2014. Once completed this will put lots of land worth crores at IR disposal. Nice source for funding profligate operations all over India.
The biggest spoke in the wheel is literally Shivaji.........I mean CSIL( Chatrapati Shivaji International Airport). The elevated line passess very close to air corridor of the airport hence AAI has refused permission in that stretch.
Hope it remains stuck that way. Dont want to see the cheeni HSR equivalent of mumbai become a reality.

http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/railwa ... randum.pdf

member_23677 · Post by **member_23677** » 21 Oct 2012 02:33

arvin wrote:Perhaps the only project on which IR is working with cheeni efficiancy is the churchgate -virar elevated project in mumbai. It requires lots of land and Delhi sultanate is pushing the local mansabdar to expedite the land ~~grab~~ acquisition so as to complete it before battle of 2014. Once completed this will put lots of land worth crores at IR disposal. Nice source for funding profligate operations all over India.
The biggest spoke in the wheel is literally Shivaji.........I mean CSIL( Chatrapati Shivaji International Airport). The elevated line passess very close to air corridor of the airport hence AAI has refused permission in that stretch.
Hope it remains stuck that way. Dont want to see the cheeni HSR equivalent of mumbai become a reality.

http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/railwa ... randum.pdf

This is such a stupid mentality, any and every kind of development must be welcomed...

member_23677 · Post by **member_23677** » 21 Oct 2012 02:36

Singha wrote:the Hindu - very slow pace of work if mysore-kushalagara will take 5 yrs across essentially flat terrain with no major rivers or hills to cross in 5 yrs cheen would build a grid of railway lines between mysore, knagara, madikeri, kutta, hassan, chikmagalur, halebidu and so on....

'Work on Mysore-Madikeri railway line to begin in 6 months'

OUR BUREAU

MANGALORE, OCTOBER 18:
The work on the Mysore-Madikeri broad gauge railway line will begin in the next six months, according to K.H. Muniyappa.

The Union Minister of State for Railways, who was in Mangalore on Thursday to flag off the Yashvantpur-Mangalore-Karwar train, said the proposed line would be taken up on a 50:50 cost-sharing basis with the Karnataka Government at an estimated cost of Rs 700 crore.

He said the 90-km Mysore-Kushalnagar stretch on this line is expected to be completed in five years. “It will be a proud moment for the people of Coorg as the project would put the district on the railway map of India for the first time,” he said.

Indian Railways has taken up several projects on cost-sharing basis in Karnataka to achieve the twin objectives of connectivity to the hinterland and economic growth of backward areas.

The cost-sharing projects, with an outlay of Rs 6,000 crore, are in progress in this regard. Of this, Rs 3,600 crore is being shared by the Karnataka Government, he said.

To improve the railway infrastructure in Karnataka, Rs 15,623 crore has been sanctioned for new lines and track doubling in the last three years. This includes 356 km of new lines and 568 km of track doubling, he added.

cheen also wastes 10x more money on such projects than we do, albeit the result is more or less the same. Plus I am sure there would be a lot of whinners and complainers when the land acquistion happens, cheen can just start it's bulldozer and go right away into "people's" homes, can we do that in this phree country??

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 21 Oct 2012 10:47

Troll alert!!

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 21 Oct 2012 12:09

Not good arvin! negative approach....

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 02 Nov 2012 07:56

How is it that our guvermand owned Delhi metro corp (DMRC) has time to work on foreign projects, but cannot commit themselves to build metros in Indian cities ?

Daal mein kaala hai.

member_23677 · Post by **member_23677** » 02 Nov 2012 08:11

Bade wrote:How is it that our guvermand owned Delhi metro corp (DMRC) has time to work on foreign projects, but cannot commit themselves to build metros in Indian cities ?

Daal mein kaala hai.

IIRC DMRC is working on 15 to 16 different metroprojects in different cities so I don't understand what's the problem here. It seems some people cry just for the sake of crying

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 02 Nov 2012 08:13

So you did not see the recent memo from Kamal Nath and the DMRC chair.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 05 Nov 2012 14:51

Bade wrote:So you did not see the recent memo from Kamal Nath and the DMRC chair.

Saar, did yo notice? The Keralite vernacular media was whining day in and day out about DMRC not taking up the project, DMRC getting side lined or, E.Sreedharan getting side lined. Over all the picture I get is that the usual rabble rousing has already started. People now expect E.Sreedharan to work over time and get the Metro built for them. DMRC is seen as the next big saviour who would provide the Manna for the masses. Politricks have already started, with allegations that some senior babu from Kerala had made visits to a few other countries, allegedly to get some other companies also to try and build the metro. And I am waiting with bated breath to figure out how the land which is needed for the metro gets acquired

.

PS: A railway line between Guruvayur and Thirur is being delayed for ages. Why? 22 houses have to be demolished to build the line. No amount of compensation seems to be help the people. The same gang, now cries out that they want a railway line connecting Nanjangud and Nilambur Road RS, cutting through the reserve forest. Look at the urge to get a railway line which suites these folks and the idea that all this can be done, because we are talking about a railway line through a forest. The sheer Keralite hypocrisy when it comes to development clearly seen here.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Nov 2012 15:15

Sachin wrote:
Bade wrote:
PS: A railway line between Guruvayur and Thirur is being delayed for ages. Why? 22 houses have to be demolished to build the line. No amount of compensation seems to be help the people. The same gang, now cries out that they want a railway line connecting Nanjangud and Nilambur Road RS, cutting through the reserve forest. Look at the urge to get a railway line which suites these folks and the idea that all this can be done, because we are talking about a railway line through a forest. The sheer Keralite hypocrisy when it comes to development clearly seen here.

Such a line would not just cut any reserve forest but the habitat where the largest population of Tigers in a single group live, Imagine putting a railway line through Bandipur, Mudumalai and Wayanad Tiger reserves. Nothing can be more idotic as that and at the same time aurguing over 22 houses.?

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 05 Nov 2012 15:41

I was reading on SSC that Environment Ministry has shot down the railway line project that passes through some of the vaunted & prime habitat for tigers among other animals. It was also mentioned that a petition will be filed in SC to get the approval for the line. I guess its always "us vs them".

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 05 Nov 2012 19:35

True, but people are honking their way through the same forest tracks from Bengaluru, kerala to Nilambur, kerala day in and out. Yes, hypocrisy has no bounds.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 05 Nov 2012 19:38

Sachin wrote:Saar, did yo notice? The Keralite vernacular media was whining day in and day out about DMRC not taking up the project, DMRC getting side lined or, E.Sreedharan getting side lined. Over all the picture I get is that the usual rabble rousing has already started. People now expect E.Sreedharan to work over time and get the Metro built for them. DMRC is seen as the next big saviour who would provide the Manna for the masses. Politricks have already started, with allegations that some senior babu from Kerala had made visits to a few other countries, allegedly to get some other companies also to try and build the metro. And I am waiting with bated breath to figure out how the land which is needed for the metro gets acquired .

Do I sense a bit of the crab mentality in your response here. Things look murky to me as a complete outsider ( and being a true mutu I do not read the vernacular press). In your haste you did not address the primary issue of DMRC washing hands off the Kochi project, citing too busy elsewhere in Jakarta. Yes, hypocrisy is always seen through a prism onlee.

As I see it there are two possible reasons for the ongoing drama.

1) DMRC internal wars, who want Sreedharan out. The only evidence on ground is Sreedharan has been single handedly championing the metro cause for Kochi as well as other tier-II cities for a while now. But he is retired and expendable. So babus are having fun playing musical chairs at the nations cost.

2) Unlikely, but possible. Kerala politicos and usual suspects with the CM's sanction are fishing for their cuts for such a large project and want Sreedharan out, by keeping DMRC out.

But no evidence in open as to what is reality there ?

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 05 Nov 2012 20:45

Bade wrote:Do I sense a bit of the crab mentality in your response here.

No problems sir. But this crab is now actually out of the state at the moment.

In your haste you did not address the primary issue of DMRC washing hands off the Kochi project, citing too busy elsewhere in Jakarta.

Yes, DMRC is trying wash its hand off. Now honestly I see feeble attempts by the ruling govt. to some how retain their services. But what does the opposition do (remember these folks also have MPs sitting up their New Delhi). They have used this a weapon to hit at the ruling government. They have also started playing up the conspiracy theories of the UDF govt. trying to chuck out the DMRC after getting shady deals signed by other establishments.

The only evidence on ground is Sreedharan has been single handedly championing the metro cause for Kochi as well as other tier-II cities for a while now. But he is retired and expendable. So babus are having fun playing musical chairs at the nations cost

Of Sreedharan being made a scape-goat, I did have this sad feeling when he was roped in earlier into the stage. I had mentioned it in BRF as well; that hope Sreedharan does not get tagged to a failed project (Metro @ Kochi). Even now, I feel too much hope is laid upon E.Sreedharan as a person. The babus and the politicians, and the news media are in this purely for business.

From what I could gather, purely my personal notings. People in the state still are not mentally prepared for any major development projects. The mentality can be described aptly via an old Malayalam proverb-"ഉത്തരത്തിൽ ഉള്ളതു എടുക്കുകയും വേണം, കക്ഷത്തിൽ ഉള്ളത് വീഴാനും പാടില്ല" ("I want to take some thing on the door sill, high above me; but I am not ready to let go what I have tucked under my arm pit"). They would like to have Metro, new Railway lines and umpteen Trains always available for them, but when it comes to giving some thing from their side, they are not at all happy. Finding a balance in such case is a bit dicey.

PS: Let the Christmas season start, I can predict the whine in Mathrubhumi. Wait listed tickets, and not enough trains. This would continue until the day Southern Railways announces that all trains between Bangalore->Salem, Chennai->Salem has been cancelled, only to allow trains bound to Kerala during the season

.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 05 Nov 2012 22:12

I think it always comes down to money. DMRC is not cheap but its name is needed to pull money out of Delhi and JBIC. Now that money has been pulled, DMRC is expendable.

Well DMRC is no god either. Witness the snafu's with the Delhi airport express lines.

BTW I think the phase-1 estimate of Rs 200 crore per KM is very low for Kerala. Look for prices to spiral once construction starts.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 06 Nov 2012 00:48

What is most mystifying is what the current chair of DMRC thinks. He seems to want to pull out of Kochi Metro. All this has surfaced now, not a while ago. Why does he keep saying "too busy". He is not beholden to politicos in KL or the construction mafias. Why is he being diplomatic ? He can just draw the line and make his feelings known, like Sreedharan. I think babus are playing politics and taking the politicos for a ride this time around. All I see here from Sachin, is smearing the spectators to this event, the people of Kochi.

My suspicion stems from the statement Sreedharan made a while ago, that the Kochi project was not moving for the last 5 years, not because of the politicos but the babus. That was quite a damning one on babudom. Now, the babus want him out as revenge.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 06 Nov 2012 00:54

Regarding airport express lines whether in Dilli, Mumbai or Blr the chi-chi classes of India are not going to take the train to the airport, they would rather have a luxury car drop at the airport with the family driver to lug their belongings.

At least some sense has prevailed in Blr, and they have probably dropped the bad idea, for a metro extension. In India all of that can change again.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Nov 2012 01:02

Bade wrote:Regarding airport express lines whether in Dilli, Mumbai or Blr the chi-chi classes of India are not going to take the train to the airport, they would rather have a luxury car drop at the airport with the family driver to lug their belongings.

At least some sense has prevailed in Blr, and they have probably dropped the bad idea, for a metro extension. In India all of that can change again.

Anybody who can afford air tickets in India can afford to take a taxi to the airport. Why would they bother with a train? In the US by contrast, if you take a cab to a major city airport from far flung suburbs you might end up paying more for the cab than for the air ticket.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 06 Nov 2012 07:36

Farmers stage protest against Shimoga-Harihar rail project

Demanding modification in the proposed Shimoga-Harihar railway project, farmers from Shimoga and Honnali taluks staged a protest here on Monday under the aegis of Jana Shakti-Janapara Horata Vedike.

It has been planned to lay a railway line to connect Shimoga with Harihar through Holalur and Honnali for which fertile irrigated land would be acquired. The Department of Railway has also conducted a survey for the project. Farmers have already lost their land for the high-tension power line, right and left bank canals of Tunga reservoir, and for widening the road between Shimoga and Honnali. The proposed railway project would subject the farmers here to another round of displacement, the protesters said.

It was an unwise decision to acquire fertile irrigated land for the railway project. Food production in the region would also come down if the project was implemented. Protesters apprehended that the embankment which would be constructed for the railway line would divide agricultural land making it difficult for farmers to move from one stretch to another.

Protesters demanded for modification in the project and suggested to take the railway line through Kotegangur, Sominakoppa, Basavanagangur, Hunasodu, Kommanalu, Beeranakere, and Suttukote in Shimoga taluk and through Kogonahalli, Vaderattur, Ganganakote, Basavanahalli, and Didagur villages in Honnali taluk.

As the land in the alternative route was not irrigated, the compensation which the Department of Railway has to pay to farmers would also come down, the protesters said.

The farmers moved in a protest march from the zilla panchayat office to the Deputy Commissioner's office. H.C. Basavarajappa, the former president of zilla panchayat, M.S. Mahendranath, Rajappa, and Praveen H.M. participated in the protest.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 23 Nov 2012 07:51

Private investment in Railways is now ok

Bureaucracy and the Unions are the opposing forces, is it a surprise?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 23 Nov 2012 08:51

Modified Cape-gauge Locos flagged off for export to Mozambique
Goldenrock has been doing a lot of good work.

Two in-service broad gauge locomotives converted into Cape gauge ones for Mozambique by the Golden Rock Railway Workshop were flagged off for export from here on Thursday.

The conversion, to suit the requirement of the Mozambique Railway network, was carried out by reducing the gauge distance from 1676 to 1067 mm. The horse power of one of the locomotive was upgraded from 2,400 to 3,100 HP and from 1,800 to 2,400 HP in the other.

The workshop had also carried out a series of modifications to increase the horse power by providing higher displacement turbo super charger, upgraded fuel injection equipment, larger capacity air intake cooler and micro processor controlled excitation system.

Several other special features have also been included. A plate type oil cooler to improve cooling efficiency of the engine lubricating system, self cleaning centrifugal lubricating oil filter system to increase life of engine oil, stainless steel interior panel in one of the locomotives and fibre reinforced plastic panel in the other, long-life polyurethane exterior painting and upgraded brake system have been provided. One of the locomotives also has an air-conditioned cabin.

The locomotives were flagged off by Shailesh Kumar Yadav, City Police Commissioner, in the presence of P.Mahesh, Chief Workshop Manager, and R.K.Rana, General Manager, RITES. The Golden Rock workshop has been exporting metre gauge in-service locos to various countries such as Malaysia, Myanmar, Mozambique, Mali, Senegal, Tanzania, Sudan, and Benin. The shop has exported 133 metre gauge locomotives to these countries through Rail India Technical and Economic Service and Indian Railway Construction Company. The exported locos also include 34 in-service metre gauge locomotives converted into Cape gauge for Mozambique and Sudan.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 23 Nov 2012 10:25

^^^ Golden Rock workshop I guess also converted a steam locomotive of the Nilgiri Mountain Railway. They made it to the "oil-firing" type instead of the "coal-firing" type. I.e use oil for the fire in the fire box.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 23 Nov 2012 10:48

Sachin, I think they have already built four of them. They are entirely newly built, not converted. The old steam engines have been scrapped altogether, IIRC. I think they were converted to oil firing before being scrapped.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Nov 2012 18:56

I think there was a report on IR's toilet that uses some special microbes to treat the excretes. Anyone know what is the microbe DRDO uses? I am thinking of using it for home septic tank.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 23 Nov 2012 19:23

SaiK, see this for more info.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Nov 2012 19:53

thank you!