Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 29 Jul 2014 03:53

I've noticed something strange about western MSM coverage since 2006 Israel-Lebanon war. CNN and in particular BBC seems to have taken a crash course from undie tv on biased coverage. Just like NDTVs GJ riot coverage, everyday its a new picture of some crying Gazan child under headlines of "hospital hit/kindergarten hit/play field hit". No pics of Israel children crying, or Hamas' indiscriminate mortar firing on Israeli cities/kindergartens. Fox is the only channel which is unapologetically pro-Israel in its coverage.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 29 Jul 2014 08:26

devesh,
I have stated my view.JEMji has said that I am repeating the same thing again and again.what I discussed is not central to the theme of the thread which is Indo-Israel relations.India and israel have good relations based on pragmatic reasons.My point had more to do geo-politics that created israel and Pakistan and western narratives of universalism. imo,it was getting OT.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 29 Jul 2014 15:46

One American's assessment of IDF:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... round.html

One might say that in war, s--t happens. That is true, but such behavior is indicative of an army that is not well disciplined and not a completely reliably instrument of state policy.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Jul 2014 16:10

Have you met Israelis who have served in the army? There are many of them in India,They have come here to escape the trauma of their continuous war against their enemies.If you speak to them you will find them exceptionally patriotic willing to fight to defend their country,but are faced with the hard fact that most of the "enemy" casualties have been innocent civilians has seen many disgusted at the policies of some of their leaders.In recent times the ability of the Hiz to take out Israeli tanks,and both they and the Hamas to fire countless rockets into Israel has been a rude surprise. Urban warfare also ensures that heavy casualties have to be expected and for a small country beset with enemies on all sides,who use a quasi-volunteer force,even the loss of a few soldiers is a huge loss for Israel.In the current campaign they have lost a large number,40+ thus far.

For the first time we are seeing in India a boycott of Israeli and US goods from this report.How effective it will be is questionable,but as the report says,it is more to make a point than hurt economic interests.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/u ... 258866.ece
U.S., Israeli brands face boycott over Gaza

A poster in front of a hotel in Mumbai calls for boycott of Israeli and American brands in protest against Gaza killings. Photo: Vivek Bendre
The Hindu A poster in front of a hotel in Mumbai calls for boycott of Israeli and American brands in protest against Gaza killings. Photo: Vivek Bendre

A longer list of boycotted products--including garment, chocolates and beauty products--are being share via social social networking sites Facebook and Twitter

Inspired by Mahatma Gandhi's Swadesh movement, a Dawoodi Bohra Muslim bottler Mohsin Hajoori gave up bottling for the British.
With his defiance, India got its first Swadesh drink, Sosyo, whose foundation was laid in Surat in 1923 by Hajoori's brother Abbas.

An item of protest then, the dark beverage, which is today marketed as "apna desh, apna drink," has a new-found visibility in the refrigerator of Ismael Usman, a restaurant owner in South Mumbai's bustling Bhendi Bazaar. Glued just above the cash-counter in Usman's joint is a small paper-bill urging customers to boycott Israeli and US products, including beverages Coca Cola and Pepsi.

"We do not want to strengthen the hands of the killers of humanity," reads the bill that also lists Nestle and Nescafe.

Over the past week, bottles of Sosyo, and other regionally marketed beverages-- such as the MASST range of Indore-based UNO Foods, and the Big Cola, marketed by Peruvian company AJE--have replaced Coca Cola and Pepsi in many restaurants across Mumbai. This boycott of these products is part of the protest led by shops and hoteliers in Mumbai against the Israeli offensive against Palestine in Gaza.

A longer list of boycotted products--including garment, chocolates and beauty products--are being share via social social networking sites Facebook and Twitter. Though the intent of the boycott is to hit the economic interests of Israel, Usman says the main agenda is to send across a strong message."It is wrong. We condemn the atrocities of Israel," he said.

While the hoteliers are losing out on business, as Coca Cola and Pepsi are popular beverages, they expressed no qualms over the loss of revenue. Since he adopted the boycott, Usman has witnessed a daily shift of Rs 10,000-15,000 in sales. For bigger joints, he says, the shift is more than Rs. 20,000 per day.

Over a 1,000 hotels in the city have joined the protest, says Omear Sheikh, an office-bearer of the Indian Hoteliers Association, one of the organizations behind the boycott. "This is not a community based protest but based on humanity. We are urging all groups to join hands. The number is rising daily," he said. The boycott will continue post Eid celebrations, he added.

Coca Cola termed the protest as "self-damaging" to the local economy given the its scale of business. It is too early to access the (financial) impact of the boycott, said Kamlesh Sharma, public relations director of Coca Cola. "They have chosen the wrong symbol of protest. Coca Coca is still selling in Palestine," he said.

The local companies, however, aren't complaining as they expect a rise in demand and revenue.

Sanjay Mistry, regional manager of Hajoori and Sons, which manufactures Sosyo, said, "a marginal rise of 2-5 percent in revenue is what we expect," but the actual figures will be clear if the boycott sustains.

Ritesh Sachar, general manager, UNO Foods, said though he expected to gain from the boycott he feels there are too many local players involved for anyone to singularly benefit from the situation

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 29 Jul 2014 17:07

George Friedman Uvacha

Gaming Israel and Palestine

We have long argued that the Arab-Israeli conflict is inherently insoluble. Now, for the third time in recent years, a war is being fought in Gaza. The Palestinians are firing rockets into Israel with minimal effect. The Israelis are carrying out a broader operation to seal tunnels along the Gaza-Israel boundary. Like the previous wars, the current one will settle nothing. The Israelis want to destroy Hamas' rockets. They can do so only if they occupy Gaza and remain there for an extended period while engineers search for tunnels and bunkers throughout the territory. This would generate Israeli casualties from Hamas guerrillas fighting on their own turf with no room for retreat. So Hamas will continue to launch rockets, but between the extreme inaccuracy of the rockets and Israel's Iron Dome defense system, the group will inflict little damage to the Israelis.

War Without a Military Outcome

The most interesting aspect of this war is that both sides apparently found it necessary, despite knowing it would have no definitive military outcome. The kidnapping and killing of three Israeli teenagers followed by the incineration of a Palestinian boy triggered this conflict. An argument of infinite regression always rages as to the original sin: Who committed the first crime?

For the Palestinians, the original crime was the migration into the Palestinian mandate by Jews, the creation of the State of Israel and the expulsion of Arabs from that state. For Israel, the original sin came after the 1967 war, during which Israel captured the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem. At that moment, the Israelis were prepared to discuss a deal, but the Arabs announced their famous "three nos" at a meeting in Khartoum: no negotiation, no recognition, no peace. That locked the Israelis into an increasingly rigid stance. Attempts at negotiations have followed the Khartoum declaration, all of which failed, and the "no recognition" and "no peace" agreement is largely intact. Cease-fires are the best that anyone can hope for.

For Hamas, at least -- and I suspect for many Palestinians in the West Bank -- the only solution is Israel's elimination. For many Israelis, the only solution is to continue to occupy all captured territories until the Palestinians commit to peace and recognition. Since the same Israelis do not believe that day will ever come, the occupation would become permanent.

Under these circumstances, the Gaza war is in some sense a matter of housekeeping. For Hamas, the point of the operation is demonstrating it can fire rockets at Israel. These rockets are inaccurate, but the important thing is that they were smuggled into Gaza at all, since this suggests more dangerous weapons eventually will be smuggled in to the Palestinian territory. At the same time, Hamas is demonstrating that it remains able to incur casualties while continuing to fight.

For the Israelis, the point of the operation is that they are willing to carry it out at all. The Israelis undoubtedly intend to punish Gaza, but they do not believe they can impose their will on Gaza and compel the Palestinians to reach a political accommodation with Israel. War's purpose is to impose your political will on your enemy. But unless the Israelis surprise us immensely, nothing decisive will come out of this conflict. Even if Israel somehow destroyed Hamas, another organization would emerge to fill its space in the Palestinian ecosystem. Israel can't go far enough to break the Palestinian will to resist; it is dependent on a major third-party state to help meet Israeli security needs. This creates an inherent contradiction whereby Israel receives enough American support to guarantee its existence but because of humanitarian concerns is not allowed to take the kind of decisive action that might solve its security problem.

We thus see periodic violence of various types, none of which will be intended or expected to achieve any significant political outcome. Wars here have become a series of bloodstained gestures. There are some limited ends to achieve, such as closing Palestinian tunnels and demonstrating Palestinian capabilities that force Israel into an expensive defensive posture. But Hamas will not be defeated, and Israel will make no concessions.

Sovereignty and Viability Problems

The question therefore is not what the point of all this is -- although that is a fascinating subject -- but where all this ends. All things human end. Previous longstanding conflicts, such as those between France and England, ended or at least changed shape. Israel and Palestine accordingly will resolve their conflict in due course.

Many believe the creation of a Palestinian state will be the solution, and those who believe this often have trouble understanding why this self-evidently sensible solution has not been implemented. The reason is the proposed solution is not nearly as sensible as it might appear to some.

Issues of viability and sovereignty surround any discussion of a Palestinian state. Geography raises questions about the viability of any Palestinian polity. Palestine has two population centers, Gaza and the West Bank, which are detached from one another. One population center, Gaza, is an enormously crowded, narrow salient. Its ability to develop a sustainable economy is limited. The West Bank has more possibilities, but even it would be subordinate to a dynamic Israel. If the Palestinian workforce is drawn into the Israeli economy, both territories will become adjuncts to Israel. Within its current borders, a viable Palestine is impossible to imagine.

From the Israeli point of view, creating a Palestine along something resembling the 1967 lines (leaving aside the question of Jerusalem) would give the Palestinians superb targets, namely, Tel Aviv and Haifa. Given its history, Israel is unlikely to take that risk unless it had the right to oversee security in the West Bank in some way. That in turn would undermine Palestinian sovereignty.

As you play out the possibilities in any two-state solution, you run into the problem that any solution one side demanded would be unbearable to the other. Geography simply won't permit two sovereign states. In this sense, the extremists on both sides are more realistic than the moderates. But that reality encounters other problems.

Israel's High-Water Mark

Currently, Israel is as secure as it is ever likely to be unless Hamas disappears, never to be replaced, and the West Bank becomes even more accommodating to Israel. Neither of these prospects is likely. Israel's economy towers over its neighbors. The Palestinians are weak and divided. None of Israel's neighbors pose any threat of invasion, a situation in place since the 1977 neutralization of Egypt. Jordan is locked into a close relation with Israel, Egypt has its peace treaty and Hezbollah is bogged down in Syria. Apart from Gaza, which is a relatively minor threat, Israel's position is difficult to improve.

Israel can't radically shift its demography. But several evolutions in the region could move against Israel. Egypt could change governments, renounce its treaty, rearm and re-enter the Sinai Peninsula. Hezbollah could use its experience in Syria to open a front in Lebanon. Syria could get an Islamic State-led government and threaten the Golan Heights. Islamists could overthrow Jordan's Hashemite monarchy and pose a threat to the east. Turkey could evolve into a radical Islamic government and send forces to challenge Israel. A cultural revolution could take place in the Arab world that would challenge Israel's economic superiority, and therefore its ability to wage war. Iran could smuggle missiles into Gaza, and so on.

There is accordingly an asymmetry of possibilities. It is difficult to imagine any evolution, technical, political or economic, that would materially improve Israel's already dominant position, but there are many things that could weaken Israel -- some substantially. Each may appear far-fetched at the moment, but everything in the future seems far-fetched. None is inconceivable.

It is a rule of politics and business to bargain from strength. Israel is now as strong as it is going to be. But Israel does not think that it can reach an accommodation with the Palestinians that would guarantee Israeli national security, a view based on a realistic reading of geography. Therefore, Israel sees little purpose in making concessions to the Palestinians despite its relative position of strength.

In these circumstances, the Israeli strategy is to maintain its power at a maximum level and use what influence it has to prevent the emergence of new threats. From this perspective, the Israeli strategy on settlements makes sense. If there will be no talks, and Israel must maintain its overwhelming advantage, creating strategic depth in the West Bank is sensible; it would be less sensible if there were a possibility of a peace treaty. Israel must also inflict a temporary defeat on any actively hostile Palestinian force from time to time to set them back several years and to demonstrate Israeli capabilities for psychological purposes.

The Palestinian position meanwhile must be to maintain its political cohesion and wait, using its position to try to drive wedges between Israel and its foreign patrons, particularly the United States, but understanding that the only change in the status quo will come from changes outside the Israeli-Palestinian complex. The primary Palestinian problem will be to maintain itself as a distinct entity with sufficient power to resist an Israeli assault for some time. Any peace treaty would weaken the Palestinians by pulling them into the Israeli orbit and splitting them up. By refusing a peace treaty, they remain distinct, if divided. That guarantees they will be there when circumstances change.

Fifty Years Out

Israel's major problem is that circumstances always change. Predicting the military capabilities of the Arab and Islamic worlds in 50 years is difficult. Most likely, they will not be weaker than they are today, and a strong argument can be made that at least several of their constituents will be stronger. If in 50 years some or all assume a hostile posture against Israel, Israel will be in trouble.

Time is not on Israel's side. At some point, something will likely happen to weaken its position, while it is unlikely that anything will happen to strengthen its position. That normally would be an argument for entering negotiations, but the Palestinians will not negotiate a deal that would leave them weak and divided, and any deal that Israel could live with would do just that.

What we are seeing in Gaza is merely housekeeping, that is, each side trying to maintain its position. The Palestinians need to maintain solidarity for the long haul. The Israelis need to hold their strategic superiority as long as they can. But nothing lasts forever, and over time, the relative strength of Israel will decline. Meanwhile, the relative strength of the Palestinians may increase, though this isn't certain.

Looking at the relative risks, making a high-risk deal with the Palestinians would seem prudent in the long run. But nations do not make decisions on such abstract calculations. Israel will bet on its ability to stay strong. From a political standpoint, it has no choice. The Palestinians will bet on the long game. They have no choice. And in the meantime, blood will periodically flow.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Jul 2014 18:57

the dark beverage, which is today marketed as "apna desh, apna drink,"

OT I am sure, but.. is this any good? Safe? Fizz? Punch? Kick?

As I recall, "77" aka "Morarji-ola" (not 2 b confused with the Bizz-Drink) was not a success. Limca etc are OK, but one has to worry about e-coli and jaundice from the water in the colas. With American Champagne (aka Coke/Pepsi) one only gets the cocaine and the lead in the water. Affects only the brain, not the stomach. I have heard that in Oirope they use Coke to dissolve rust, i.e., if i can't unscrew a nut or bolt, try immersing in Coke.

I can't say that I have tasted Zam Zam Cola. Rooh Afza maybe but that is sugar-loaded.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 Jul 2014 19:12

If you speak to them you will find them exceptionally patriotic willing to fight to defend their country,but are faced with the hard fact that most of the "enemy" casualties have been innocent civilians has seen many disgusted at the policies of some of their leaders.

Nonsense
The avg Israeli cares a rats ass about the Gaza casualties

(And one of the stupid lefties who writes for outlook does not count:) )

they are more worried about their kids (19 and 20 yr olds) coming back home saze. If it means 200000 dead they could care less.
The Israeli public attitudes have hardened

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 29 Jul 2014 19:29

Nightwatch for 28 july

Nightwatch wrote:According to one credible news analysis and the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, Israel is methodically reducing the size of the Gaza Strip by 40% by creating a 3 km wide zone in which no buildings will be left standing, no tunnels can be built and from which no rockets can be fired. This is the meaning of Protective Edge.

Israeli evacuation warnings to Palestinians tend to confirm the above news analysis. Israelis used their usual multi-media tactics to warn residents of Gaza to move to the center of Gaza City and away from the outlying neighborhoods immediately.

As the rocket and mortar fire persists, Israel is notching up its seizure of land in Gaza and the extension of the dead zone. This is implementation of "land for terror"-KM
Today's statement by General Gantz marks the third escalation of the Protective Edge. The eastern parts of Gaza City may expect to be razed.

I think Israel is using the ceasefire to consolidate and get more military to the zone of conflict. The Friedman article raises lot of good points, especially that this is the right time for Israel to do what it is doing. No MB in Egypt, Syria and Hizb stretched thin. Also interesting is what future changes may happen in the countries and how this conflict may affect them as well as how the changes can affect the longterm part of this strategy.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 29 Jul 2014 19:58

Philip wrote:Have you met Israelis who have served in the army? There are many of them in India,They have come here to escape the trauma of their continuous war against their enemies.If you speak to them you will find them exceptionally patriotic willing to fight to defend their country,but are faced with the hard fact that most of the "enemy" casualties have been innocent civilians has seen many disgusted at the policies of some of their leaders.In recent times the ability of the Hiz to take out Israeli tanks,and both they and the Hamas to fire countless rockets into Israel has been a rude surprise. Urban warfare also ensures that heavy casualties have to be expected and for a small country beset with enemies on all sides,who use a quasi-volunteer force,even the loss of a few soldiers is a huge loss for Israel.In the current campaign they have lost a large number,40+ thus far.

For the first time we are seeing in India a boycott of Israeli and US goods from this report.How effective it will be is questionable,but as the report says,it is more to make a point than hurt economic interests.

Comrade, i am glad our peaceful ummah birathers will now enjoy the roohani rooh afza and zamzam cola instead of the kufr Coca Cola and Pepsi. Since they are sharing the list of US and Israel goods to boycott on social media, a good start would be start exchanging that list through messenger pigeons since facebook,twitter and even the computers ummah uses are all made by evil yanks. Strange that i should notice so many Gazan youngsters wearing t-shirts with Nike, Adidas, Levis etc logos. Guess the peaceful faithfools in Pak/India are more keen than those bearing the brunt of IDF.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jul 2014 21:34

Philip, Dont be taken by Chindu's posting news about some ummah restaraunt owners boycotting some US products. And likening it to the great Gandhian swadeshi movement against the Brutish. Only a reartarded mind could do such a comparison.

What is you real probelm? I see you ranting against Israel and US-West in other threads too posting commie propaganda from original crooks in UK.

None of that matters. What matters on BRF is the India angle to all the things happening.

One positive I see is India can claim a Protective Edge Zone in POK next time TSP claims its terrorists behead Indian troops.

And US cant say much in UN or whatever.

Also what is the point of wailing about civilians?

Hamas is a Muslim Brotherhood jihadi outfit which is in control of Gaza.
According to Islam there are no civilians only combatants.
And Hamas is launching rocket attacks perisitently regardless of casualties on their side.
So what is the angst about civilians who are defact supporting Hams in its attacks?

Just because the Hamas rockets are misguided and are useless thunderbolts, they still are bad stuff.

You want Indian ahimsa type response to practioners of Old Testament Deuternomy: "An eye for an eye ...."

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 29 Jul 2014 22:21

Want to know if Israel has enough land to accomodate fully equipped 2 Million Indian troops needed for establishing , maintaining permanent Peace in Muddle East East?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 29 Jul 2014 22:26

Jhujar wrote:Want to know if Israel has enough land to accomodate fully equipped 2 Million Indian troops needed for establishing , maintaining permanent Peace in Muddle East East?

New Development Bank should facilitate that, UN as such doesn't have an army of its own.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 30 Jul 2014 04:56

Thousands mourn death of Indian-origin Israeli soldier

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 30 Jul 2014 05:16

Dilbu wrote:It is like burning a house to kill the rats. You will get the rats killed for sure but at what cost. It is as if they are not even trying to reduce civilian casualties, apart from the phone calls and warning announcements. This is against an unarmed population. Yes there are Hamas terrorists hiding among them and they should be killed but if you are TFTA super power then find a way without these mass killings. I am a friend of Israel and as an Indian friend I would advice them that what they are doing to innocent civilians is adharm and it will come back and bite you one day as per my beliefs. JMT

26/11 happened, ISI and hafiz suar's voices on blackberrys intercepted "Kill everyone except muslims, kill as many people as you can......."

Indian muslim Javed Akhtar said, "the seeds of 26/11 are in the demolition of babri masjid......" this is the muslim response, they will look on passively or shout at you "why hold islam and islamics for the misdeeds of few? every muslim isn't terrorist."

Now palestine happens and suddenly these very passive muslims become agitated at the deaths of innocents......

clearly the double standards.

What Israel is doing, and very very correctly is pointing out to palesinian muslims "that you can just give shelter - donation to hamas-uars and let them bomb/rocket our army/cities; and imagine that you're safe and out of it, sure dreaming is your right......."

"Sweat dreams you double standard ba$tards..." BOOOOM!

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 30 Jul 2014 05:32

Dilbu ji, you compass is going haywire. please do repair it.

mass killings???

really, mass killings are what Muslims did in India for centuries. and continued all the way up to the current iteration of Jammu and Kashmir Jihad.

what is Israel is doing, compared to what Muslims did and do when they are in power, is not even comparable.

I don't understand why people have this irrational logic when it comes to Israel. especially Hindus and Indians. we've seen mass killings in our history. just because our historians cover it up, doesn't mean the proof doesn't exist. stop comparing apples to french-cut-beans. even the color is not the same.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 30 Jul 2014 06:55

Technically, what happened in India was/is Ethnic cleansing attempt, through mass killings for centuries. No doubt, given half a chance the Hamas and their supporters (including presumed civilians) would have completed ethnic cleansing of the Israelis. Even now that is the stated objective, but hamas doesn't have the wherewithal. Else the fate of hindus in pakistan would happen to Israelis.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Jul 2014 07:57

Ramana,I'm not being taken in by anyone or the CHindu for that matter.I'm just posting news. I've not advocated a boycott,but one cannot keep blinkers on.Take the piece in the Deccan Chronicle today about hundreds of Brits now fighting in ME wars and returning to Britain. Pretty soon we'll have our own extremists fighting in foreign fields and coming back with the experience of jihad adding to our already huge problems with IM ,Maoists whatever.

If Israel wants to go down the path of indiscriminiate slaughter of hundreds of women and children then it runs the risk of the judgement of history and the fruits of hatred that it has sown.The MEast has shown that increasingly the risk to Israel has only increased not diminished from its decades of conflict.This is a huge humanitarian problem.Anyone who has the slightest concern for the dignity of human life will be appalled.It could be Israel,the UKR junta,ISIS or whoever.The outrage is the same.It is abominable to exterminate a people living in such a rathole like Gaza who for 7 yrs. have experienced a blockade that has forced them to build tunnels which are also being used to smuggle arms to destroy the very blockade,what Hamas/Palestinians want! The UN has now estimated that of those killed in Gaza "75% of them have been civilians". What are we advocating? A return to barbarianism? Surely one wants the world to progress and eschew mass violence and conflict that diminishes the human race instead of civilising it?

Secondly,I am against the hypocrisy of the US/West,the nations that enslaved us for centuries. It is increasingly evident in its attitude in the current global crises.Attempts are being made to bring us into an American military orbit which has to be resisted at all costs.We are not cannon fodder for their misadventures. I have never ever been a Commie or espouse its ideology,but isn't it a party allowed to contest elections in India? As for the Indian angle,what about the 1000 Indian nurses trapped in Libya? Who effed up that country and has now fled from its on embassy saigon style? Do you seriously want India to be a lackey of Uncle Sam? The entire MEast is exploding thanks to its cretinous foreign policy.Even the Israelis have denounced JoKerry. Millions of Indians are employed in the region,our largest earner of foreign exchange.Their safety and economic well being is of the greatest concern to India.What happens in the MEast is no longer a neighbourhood quarrel between two estranged relatives.Whether we like it or not we must do whatever is possible to help stop the conflict.How did we vote in the UN?

You may have your viewpoints but so do I.I have every right to exercise them.I do not criticise you personally .You can counter my arguments as much as you wish. So let's agree to disagree when we do.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 30 Jul 2014 20:13

Back stabbers

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jul 2014 20:25

Philip, Thanks for replying.

"Theory is History!"
Its written by those who are alive after the battle. So lets not worry about who writes history and how it will judge us.
Be alive to be able to write it.

Supporting Israel to exist is not same as supporting US.

In fact Israel is forced to do what its doing because of the slipping support from US as it wants to realign with Sunnis.

ME will explode and it will be very messy as the roots of strife were suppressed under Western Sheikdom lackeys after the defeat and collapse of the Ottomans from the war started a century ago. They lost the last hundred years which from ze them.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Jul 2014 21:09

Dear Ramana,with the coming chaos,how are we to safeguard our energy supplies if Iran is also brought into the action as an active participant as the Sunni -Shiite conflict intensifies?

http://barracudabrigade.blogspot.com/20 ... efire.html

Obama 'Yelled' At Netanyahu In Ceasefire Demand!
Tuesday, July 29, 2014 23:23

NEWSMAX “It was not a pleasant conversation if you saw what happened . . . it was not pleasant,” Danny Danon — a Likud party member of the Knesset and Netanyahu’s former deputy minister of defense — said on “The Steve Malzberg Show.” “He was yelling and telling Prime Minister Netanyahu what he should do and what he should not do.
“I tell you very frankly, we have a very close relationship with the U.S. — the strongest ally of Israel. But this is not a way to treat the leader of an ally country.” According to Danon, the fireworks erupted as Obama urged a permanent end to the hostilities between Israel and Hamas, which last week began firing rockets at key Israeli cities, prompting retaliation.

But Obama’s tone was uncalled for, Danon said. “He is not talking, President Obama, with a leader of the Taliban. He is talking with the leader of the state of Israel, of the Jewish people, and when we are in a time of war. We need the backing and the support of the U.S. Unfortunately, we do not have it now,” Danon said. “[It's] not pleasant, to hear such a voice when you have so much pressure.”

Danon added that he thinks a permanent ceasefire is impossible for now as Hamas continues fighting. “I can tell you it is not easy for us when we see our boys being buried on a daily basis,” he said. “As we speak now, when I’m on my way to Jerusalem, we have air-raid sirens going off and we are still under attack from rocket attacks as we speak.
“I urge Prime Minister Netanyahu and my friends in the cabinet to be strong now and to do whatever is good for Israel, even if it means to tell President Obama, no, we cannot satisfy your wishes or your pressure to sign a ceasefire, which would be bad for Israel now,” Danon told host Steve Malzberg.
“It is an insult the way President Obama is treating Israel and Secretary [of State John] Kerry is treating Israel. It is an insult for us,” he said.”The demand to have a ceasefire . . . is unacceptable. The U.S. knows how to fight al-Qaida and the Taliban, and we are fighting Hamas . . . You don't beg for a ceasefire.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 30 Jul 2014 21:20

devesh wrote:Dilbu ji, you compass is going haywire. please do repair it.

mass killings???

really, mass killings are what Muslims did in India for centuries. and continued all the way up to the current iteration of Jammu and Kashmir Jihad.

what is Israel is doing, compared to what Muslims did and do when they are in power, is not even comparable.

I don't understand why people have this irrational logic when it comes to Israel. especially Hindus and Indians. we've seen mass killings in our history. just because our historians cover it up, doesn't mean the proof doesn't exist. stop comparing apples to french-cut-beans. even the color is not the same.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1489567

philip wrote:Something to reflect upon!

Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism & Islam:

Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat:

Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges.

When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well. Here's how it works.

As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:

United States -- Muslim 0.6%

Australia -- Muslim 1.5%

Canada -- Muslim 1.9%

China -- Muslim 1.8%

Italy -- Muslim 1.5%

Norway -- Muslim 1.8%*

*At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs.

This is happening in:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%

Germany -- Muslim 3.7%

United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%

Spain -- Muslim 4%

Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%* *

From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims.

They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:

France -- Muslim 8%

Philippines -- Muslim 5%

Sweden -- Muslim 5%

Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%

The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%

Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The
ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.* *

When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris, we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam, with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:

Guyana -- Muslim 10%

India -- Muslim 13.4%

Israel -- Muslim 16%

Kenya -- Muslim 10%

Russia -- Muslim 15%* *

After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:

Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%* *

At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%

Chad -- Muslim 53.1%

Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%*

From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing
(genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:

Albania -- Muslim 70%

Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%

Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%

Sudan -- Muslim 70%* *

After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%

Egypt -- Muslim 90%

Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%

Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%

Iran -- Muslim 98%

Iraq -- Muslim 97%

Jordan -- Muslim 92%

Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%

Pakistan -- Muslim 97%

Palestine -- Muslim 99%

Syria -- Muslim 90%

Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%

Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%

United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%* *

100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace. Here there's supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%

Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%

Somalia -- Muslim 100%

Yemen -- Muslim 100%

Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.

'Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel. -- Leon Uris, 'The Haj'

It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law.

The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts nor schools nor non-Muslim religious facilities.

In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend
madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death.

Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would
indicate.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jul 2014 22:16

Philip That Likud report tallies with the general impression in US that Israel is getting a dressing down from US.
Now why is that?
What US interests are not being served by Israel's Gaza operations?

I think primarily the US effort to Ralph Peterize the Middle East by propping up Sunni-Shia fights. When Israel retaliates against Palestine Hamas attacks it makes the US look bad as its ally Israel is waging war on Islam. And Hamas comes out as underdog.

Now Hamas backers are Iran which is the SHia leader in the S-S fight.

So Hamas attacks on Israel help bolster its own Shia side for the hearts and minds of the Islamist in Middle East.
KSA looks like a loser.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 31 Jul 2014 01:02

On a slightly different note. A 10 year old girl going away from the Israelis is shot.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel

"At that point, Captain R took the unusual decision to leave the post in pursuit of the girl. He shot her dead and then "confirmed the kill" by emptying his magazine into her body. "

These are not the Israelis I knew in the 1950s.

This generation are so desensitized to Palestinian/Arab lives that they are morphing into the murderers who killed their ancestors.

We are well into war crimes territory.

So you think there will be any 'human rights' sanctions on Bibi?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 31 Jul 2014 01:53

Looks like Bo and JoKe are idiot Righteous Managers, not leaders. They go around telling everyone To Not Do This etc but have no clue about leading the path to viable, desirable solutions. Mutts, both. Same thing shows in EVERY situation that this administration has got into - and invariably messed up. In the end no one remembers them for being Righteous Spotless People - they will be remembered as idiots, and sadly, Lying Idiots.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 31 Jul 2014 04:10

Cosmo_R wrote:On a slightly different note. A 10 year old girl going away from the Israelis is shot.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel

"At that point, Captain R took the unusual decision to leave the post in pursuit of the girl. He shot her dead and then "confirmed the kill" by emptying his magazine into her body. "

These are not the Israelis I knew in the 1950s.

This generation are so desensitized to Palestinian/Arab lives that they are morphing into the murderers who killed their ancestors.

We are well into war crimes territory.

So you think there will be any 'human rights' sanctions on Bibi?

any human rights sanctions on ISIS? where are the war crime trials against the Jihadis raging across WANA? the Geneva Convention law books have not been thrown at these guys who are taking over country after country....

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 31 Jul 2014 04:53

^ That report is from NOvember 2004. An old report about a decade back. But why is it being recycled now?

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 31 Jul 2014 05:02

The fact of the matter is very simple. The so called civilians in the combat zone, should actively put an end to firing unguided rockets in the direction where civilians reside, with the express intent to kill any non-muslims. This alone will help to a large extent. Being irresponsible to cultivate poisonous snakes, in the hope that snakes will one day get rid of all non-muslims in the neighboring territory is bad idea. Neighbours would defend by attacking not just the snakes, but all the supporting infrastructures that cultivate snakes.
In fact, the very intent to indiscriminately fire rockets into civilian areas itself is an act of war crime. Israelis are hand tied and are trying to minimize the collateral damage by choosing terrorists targets and infrastructure. Just because the rockets turn out to be dud is not an excuse to think that Hamas and its supporters get a free pass. They are learning the hardway, and probably will re-learn the hard way how to behave in civilization. Selective application of war crimes doesn't hold water.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 31 Jul 2014 05:18

wow...I didn't even notice the date on that article. really, a 10-year old incident drudged up now. the agit-prop is getting more and more invested in this propaganda.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 31 Jul 2014 05:30

^^^

War crimes do not have a time limit. So no 'recycling' argument

More recently

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... aza-beach/

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28437626

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/31/world ... de-package

2004 or 2014. They are doing the same thing.

Israelis of all people have to realize they have to have a higher standard of human rights.

Else what? Final solution. Bullets and bombs are too expensive/inefficient, let's gas them?

2004 or not, surprised at lack of horror. A 13 year old girl and the soldier says "I would have shot her if she was 3 years old because she was in the 'zone'"

That's what the cops in CRamS' example also use as justification.

ISIS is not yet deemed an 'unfriendly' terrorist organization. When it is, it will be 'sanctioned' just like the Jamat ul Dawa and Hafeez Saeed clones will carry bounties that are never cashed in.

The Devil is laughing in delight at the exquisite moral dilemma.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 31 Jul 2014 05:55

Israel gets enough bad press as is being a jewish nation and fighting against blood thirsty islamo-fascists. In Europistan, they are attacked by both the radical left and the radical right with the perennial jihadi wh0res siding with both left/right in attacking Israel. Now pray ask why on earth would Israel target a school or a hospital ? It is fighting a door to door combat in what is one of the most populated piece of land on earth. If Hamas purposefully fires mortars from civilian areas, IDF will respond, and that response may cause unintended casualties. Gazans need to ask Hamas what have they achieved by firing a barrage of rockets on Israel ? What has Hamas achieved by firing mortars or having snipers next to shelters and hospitals ? War is bloody. Hamas asked for a war and they got one.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 31 Jul 2014 07:53

Cosmo_R wrote:^^^

War crimes do not have a time limit. So no 'recycling' argument

Can you please specify which war Israel was fighting in 2004, and how shooting a girl either in Israel, or in West Bank/Gaza constitutes a `war crime'? The worst argument that could be made there is that it is murder, and an internal matter of Israel. Internal matter as in `none of India's business'.

Israelis of all people have to realize they have to have a higher standard of human rights.

Else what? Final solution. Bullets and bombs are too expensive/inefficient, let's gas them?

Yaaawn. Yes, this business of generalising what one soldier does to the entire society is a clever sleight of hand trick (oh see - Jews are as bad as the Nazis!), but pointless in reality. The checks and balances against such behaviour also comes from the same Israeli society. Can you say the same about ISIS and Islamic societies?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 01 Aug 2014 09:38

Philip ji,
why is it so that "judgment of history" doesnt apply to Muslims for whatever they have done in the past and continue to do so now? or for that matter the European Christians and their churches? not much penalties/punishments seem to be happening on that front at all! why is judgment of history reserved only for the non-Muslim, non-Christian populations like Jews, or Hindus?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 01 Aug 2014 09:50

Really, why is Taliban names not appearing in their thousands for crimes against humanity and war crimes? or ISIS or Iraqi other terrorists? why do their activities always become an internal affair of states that for most practical purposes do not exist? Why is there no "proportionate" outrage against ISIS atrocities or Syrian ones, where 170,000 to 250,000 have been horrendously killed/raped/tortured and all cries/shouts/drama-baazi goes on about Israel? what about headless torsos of young girls beheaded, passed off as "collateral damage" as a result of ISIS dance?

Is there even a minimal shame in those who are silent on ISIS or who only mumble "of course we dont support jihadis or ISIS types - we condemn in strongest possible terms" - but in hushed, toned down decibel levels which switches to passion and high decibel and demands for war crime tribunals and judgment of history/"god" ityadi immediately on Israel thereby again smoothly avoiding their horrific silence and whitewashing of jihadi sadism at a much much large scale than Israel ever managed to do?

I am beginning to think that it is a deeply flawed character in those non-Muslims who unleash all their venom against non-Muslim forces who fight and give back only a very small proportion of what Muslims dish out to everyone else. Its almost suicidal as it weakens the only forces that could protect against the violent totalitarianism of Islam while nothin like that sort of internal opposition and violent criticism ever comes from within Islam against Islamic atrocities! At worst, its probably the misguided liberalism of non-Muslim societies that is taken as an unconditional liberalism even against murderous and perverted ideologies that need to be finished off like the Nazi regime. Pulverized, crushed, eliminated, wiped off, with all their infrastructure uprooted - literally and figuratively with overwhelming counterjihad.

Its time to choose sides.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 01 Aug 2014 09:56

^plus effing 101...

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 01 Aug 2014 10:30

brihaspati wrote:Really, why is Taliban names not appearing in their thousands for crimes against humanity and war crimes? or ISIS or Iraqi other terrorists? why do their activities always become an internal affair of states that for most practical purposes do not exist? Why is there no "proportionate" outrage against ISIS atrocities or Syrian ones, where 170,000 to 250,000 have been horrendously killed/raped/tortured and all cries/shouts/drama-baazi goes on about Israel? what about headless torsos of young girls beheaded, passed off as "collateral damage" as a result of ISIS dance?

Is there even a minimal shame in those who are silent on ISIS or who only mumble "of course we dont support jihadis or ISIS types - we condemn in strongest possible terms" - but in hushed, toned down decibel levels which switches to passion and high decibel and demands for war crime tribunals and judgment of history/"god" ityadi immediately on Israel thereby again smoothly avoiding their horrific silence and whitewashing of jihadi sadism at a much much large scale than Israel ever managed to do?

I am beginning to think that it is a deeply flawed character in those non-Muslims who unleash all their venom against non-Muslim forces who fight and give back only a very small proportion of what Muslims dish out to everyone else. Its almost suicidal as it weakens the only forces that could protect against the violent totalitarianism of Islam while nothin like that sort of internal opposition and violent criticism ever comes from within Islam against Islamic atrocities! At worst, its probably the misguided liberalism of non-Muslim societies that is taken as an unconditional liberalism even against murderous and perverted ideologies that need to be finished off like the Nazi regime. Pulverized, crushed, eliminated, wiped off, with all their infrastructure uprooted - literally and figuratively with overwhelming counterjihad.

Its time to choose sides.

And what about beheading soldiers of the opponent's army ? Particularly when they are sleeping in the middle of the night ? Where was the Hindu demand for a war crimes trial in the Hague ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Aug 2014 16:41

Ramana that is exactly what a Lebanese friend of mine told me,that it is in the US' interests to perpetuate a Sunni-Shia conflict around the MEast. It worked very well with the Iran-Iraq War where the West supported Saddam to the hilt,providing him with his WMD tech.The ayatollah "too-many " was also a nasty piece of work disliked universally except in his own country.Once Saddam started sabre rattling against Israel,"Super-Gun" development ,etc., he was closed down. I give full marks to Bush Sr. though for the masterful way in which he got a UN mandate to kick Saddam out of Kuwait. He has been a most underrated US president. What a diff. between father and son.Had Saddam retreated keeping a slice of Kuwaiti territory where slant drilling was going on and handed the entity over to the UN,he would still be in power today.

Here we go again:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 42469.html
Israeli soldier 'feared captured in tunnel attack' by militants

Israel suspects one of its soldiers has been kidnapped by militants as a three-day ceasefire unravelled just hours after it began.

The Israeli military said they believe the soldier went missing during a continued operation to destroy tunnels used by militants to gain access into Israel from Gaza.

A statement from the Israel army said: "An attack was executed against IDF forces operating to decommission a tunnel. Initial indication suggests that an IDF soldier has been abducted by terrorists during the incident. The IDF is currently conducting intelligence efforts and extensive searches and in order to locate missing soldier."

An Israel Defence Forces spokesman said earlier on Twitter: "We are conducting extensive searches in S. Gaza in order to find a missing IDF soldier. We suspect the soldier was kidnapped by Hamas today."

Officials in Gaza say 27 Palestinians were killed by shelling just hours after the ceasefire began this morning.

Eight rockets and mortar bombs were fired from Gaza at Israel, the Israeli military said, adding that one was intercepted by the Iron Dome system and seven hit open areas.
Video: Israeli troops find tunnel

The ceasefire was announced earlier amid a rapidly climbing death toll since hostilities began on 8 July. Palestinian officials say more than 1,499 Palestinians have been killed and nearly 7,000 wounded. Israel says 61 of its soldiers, two civilians and a Thai national have died and more than 400 have been injured.

I fear that Israeli casualties will continue to mount,as it is roping in another 16,000 reservists.Any "surge" produces extra casualties.Gaza is a rathole,now devastated beyond belief in parts,which makes it even harder for the Israelis to mount a sustained successful offensive in such a tightly packed urban ghetto. Hamas also appears to have learnt its lessons well.The tunnels appear to be modular in construction.If one reads about Cu Chi,and how the Vietnamese kept the Americans out,one will know how tough it is going to be for the Israelis. The Americans employed specialist "tunnel rats" to go after the VC.

Today Bolivia (Evo Morales) accused Israel of being a "terrorist state".A couple of other S.Am Nations have withdrawn ambassadors (Chile ,Peru).Thuugh just a few nations now,if the conflict continues to go on and on,and the civilian casualties keep on mounting,Israel will lose more and more support in the eyes of the public.Right now Bibi N, cares a hoot about international opinion.But if he is unable to deliver a killer blow to Hamas,then he will have to look for an opportunity to cut his losses and like Dubya declare "Mission accomplished" and wait for the next round!

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 01 Aug 2014 17:29

Whats with the nazi loving south American banana republics siding with ummah ? Is it the catholic church and its usual joo hating sermons ? Cannot be anything else since south america has a negligible muslim population . Although all that may soon change with an increasing number of arabs,pakis and Bangladeshis thronging into Chile and Brazil off late..

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Aug 2014 19:15

the one bad news for Israel is that if it is toughto subdue Hamas then Hezbollah will be many times harder

Unless Hezbollah weakens with the syrian civil war Israel got its task cut out

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 01 Aug 2014 23:46

rsangram wrote: And what about beheading soldiers of the opponent's army ? Particularly when they are sleeping in the middle of the night ? Where was the Hindu demand for a war crimes trial in the Hague ?

are you meaning Paki jihadi activities on IA? what were the humanitarian voices shouting hoarse now against Israel's "collateral damage" doing at the time? did they move the UNHRC for a resolution against the Pakis? Or their voices only rise in decibel if its the Muslim who appears to be the victim? Why blast the "Hindu"? you are not a hindu? or you are angry that some hindu's loudness only in favour of Islamist causes gets called out?

My fifth gen ancestor didnt drive a car. You saying that I cannot drive a car now because he didnt drive?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 03 Aug 2014 13:53

Any Abrahamics in a majority pose a threat:
e.g., http://mondoweiss.net/2012/12/lurking-c ... tions.html
(2012)

A recent report in the Haaretz newspaper, on an Israeli Jew who grows Christmas trees commercially, noted in passing: “hotels – under threat of losing kashrut certificates – are prohibited by the rabbinate from decking their halls in boughs of holly or, heaven forbid, putting up even the smallest of small sparkly Christmas tree in the corner of the lobby.”

In other words, the rabbinate has been quietly terrorising Israeli hotel owners into ignoring Christmas by threatening to use its powers to put them out of business. Denying a hotel its kashrut (kosher) certificate would lose it most of its Israeli and foreign Jewish clientele.