Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

[Don]

Some interesting pictures of Jf-17 from an airshow :

[neeraj]

^^^^^^^^
Its not a good idea to use BR to showcase PAF. Mere links would have sufficed.

[Aditya G]

Its a handsome plane - at least no one doubts JF-17 in that dept!

How does it square up against MiG-21 Bison?

[andy B]

why does it have a rudder like a boat? can it land in water too?
It looks like Johnson and the twins

How dhare you disrespect Thundaar Pandayaan saar? We are 400% secular onlee....

Don, boss would be great if you could edit the post and just put links the image size is killing the bandwidth for us office browsers also not worth wasting bandwidth over anything porki

[negi]

The Bandar seems to have stuffed in a lot of niharis and naans the fuselage is typical of 60s/70s barrellike designs with an engined nailed from behind.

[Austin]

It is a fine looking aircraft , although it looks more chubbier to me then what it is used to be specially in center of fuselage , probably the extra flab is added to carry more internal fuel/sensors.

The Chi-Pak has done a good job with project management and risk mitigation part of JF-17.

[Singha]

the three fuel tanks + internal fuel would give it a M2Kish strike role probably. the M2k-5 also carries three tanks in that config. the big dorsal spine probably has avionics bays and some fuel tank.

perhaps in 3 tank config it will carry 4 bombs under fuselage and 2 wingtip AAMs for self defence. or 2 bombs on wings, 2 on fuselage rear stations and a laser pod on fuselage front station.

in general kinda reminds of the Viggen body shape...
http://www.x-plane.org/home/urf/aviatio ... viggen.jpg

in a strike role, its somewhat ungainly body and lower T:W compared to bleeding edge birds wont matter as the payload will limit top speed and G/aoa heavily

if the basic cost is $25 mil (as claimed) and the various bideshi radar + chinese-western munitions/sensors add another $7 mil, its a affordable and good deal at $32mil each. $1b of American bribe money could pay for 2 full squadrons of these even without chinese subsidy.

in 10 yrs, PAF could well have 10-15 squadrons of these planes.(replacing the Mirage3/5 & F-6/A5 totally)..because F-16s are subsidized and there is no other bigtime project to spend $$ on.

[vic]

F Blunder mein engine hai, wing hai but raadar bhi hota toa accha hota

[Austin]

Singha thats a interesting observation , I would think the bells and whistles and extra flab that she added would have some weight penalty and some performance hit , to what extent we might not know . I think the JF-17 would go through some redesign and a engine with higher thrust some RD-33MK Sea Wasp variant to compensate for weight/performance hit.

Wiki says there is an upgraded variant of WS-13 ~ 100 kn thrust underdevelopment , even if WS-13 fails they will have a backup in RD-33MK with ~ 90 kn thrust.

[Anujan]

Fellows -- dont under estimate the JF-17. Thought it might not match the best in the Indian inventory, it is certainly better than the rust buckets that PAF has been flying till now.

One of the reasons why PAF didnt do much during Kargil is because Indians would have made mincemeat of their F7 if they used it to challenge our Mig 29's. If Indians had taken out their F16s even with heavy attrition from our side, the rest of the match would have been a duck shoot.

JF-17 comes with a decent RADAR and a BVR missile. One more headache to worry about.

[rohitvats]

^^^True words. One needs to understand that Pakistan Services as a whole have been very prudent in spending their little home grown and baksheesh money. And their objective is clear - deny India tangible victory in a short war.

With JF-17, PAF can hope to replace A-5 and F-7. And along with F-16 Block XY and limited number of J-10, they will have a good high-low mix...and solves the logistics problem as well. Along with decent Radar+BVR+LGB, ADGES and AWACS, PAF will have a decent and compact force.

The only issue as always the money....the first 50 were bought/are being bought with deep discount and freindship loan from China. And it seems that tallel than mountain fleind is not so enthusiastic about providing credit aka baksheesh for next 50....and we've yet not gone into the Radar and BVR missile orbit.....

[Indranil]

I like the sixth picture from the top. It's a good illustration of the air flow in a roll. I must add that the flow looks very neat around this plane. I can't be sure of what the JF-17 is worth, but it does seem like those F-18 like LERXs do a good job. I am not sure of the air intakes as such, but aerodynamically the plane should be able to take high AoAs.

[abhischekcc]

Its a handsome plane - at least no one doubts JF-17 in that dept!

True! It will make a spectacular sight when it is falling out of the sky with its tail on fire because of an IAF missile

[Aditya G]

http://www.thenews.com.pk/07-11-2010/National/14200.htm

Pak-US divers recover valuable Pak Navy asset from seabed

ISLAMABAD: A joint team of Pakistan Navy and United States Navy divers have successfully recovered a valuable piece of naval equipment from the Arabian Sea 25 miles from the coast of Pakistan.
A search mounted by the Pakistan Navy located the equipment lying on the seafloor at a depth of approximately 190-200 feet. This depth presented a technical challenge, and that was when the Pakistan Navy decided to partner with the US Navy for a combined recovery effort.
The Office of the Defence Representative to Pakistan (ODRP) at the US Embassy in Islamabad coordinated the joint mission.
“One of our key missions is providing support to the military forces of Pakistan,” said US Navy Vice Admiral Michael LeFever, the commander of the Office of the Defence Representative to Pakistan. “Therefore, when the request for assistance came in, we moved swiftly to assist where we could.”
“This team effort has resulted in the successful return of a valuable Pakistan Navy asset,” said Pakistan Navy Commodore Mukthar Khan, Commander of the Pakistan Navy Auxiliary and Mine Squadron. “The swift mission planning and excellent coordination between our two dive teams was a good example of how partner forces should work.”
With a successful recovery mission behind them, the Pakistani and American divers teams spent several additional days conducting joint training to further enhance their diving skills and the coordination of diving techniques between the respective countries.

[Airavat]

According to the “Pamir Times”, two of the new Majors-General ---Major-Gen.Salman Ali of the Army Medical Corps and Maj-Gen. Hidayat-Ur-Rehman of the Infantry--- are natives of Gilgit-Baltistan (GB). This is the first time since Pakistan occupied the Northern Areas (now known as GB) of India’s Jammu &Kashmir in 1948 that two natives of the Pakistan-occupied territory have risen to the rank of Maj-Gen.

B Raman

[shravan]

JUST IN: Beijing: PAF to equip JF-17 fleet with Chinese SD-10 missiles and advanced radar system: PAF Chief Rao Qamar Suleman.

[shukla]

France denies, China obliges..
Pakistan inks deal for Chinese missiles

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) confirmed to the Global Times its purchase of Chinese avionics and missiles to equip its 250 JF- 17 Thunder jet fighter fleet. Rao Qamar Suleman, air chief marshal of the PAF, revealed in an exclusive interview Wednesday that pre-purchase evaluations on several other Chinese air defense systems were also underway.

Suleman said the advanced active radar and homing middle-range missile developed by China, the SD-10 missile, will become the standard Beyond Visual Range (BVR) weapon of the JF-17. He further added "PAF has no plans to install Western devices and weapons on the aircraft for the time being

It appears that the deal between China and Pakistan was made possible following the withdrawal of a French bid to arm the JF-17 after pressure from the Indian government. Last March, Dow Jones reported that a joint bid by French aeronautics company ATE, along with Thales Group and MBDA, was in prime position to secure a 1.2-billion-euro contact to supply radars and missiles to the first wave of 50 JF-17 fighters. Le Monde also reported that the deal was to be signed during an official state visit by Pakistani Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani.

However, larger financial and geo-political factors may have made the deal flatline. In April, Le Monde reported that the French government would not give the green light for the 1.2-billion -euro deal, quoting a source inside President Nicolas Sarkozy's office as saying that this refusal was related to "French-Indian relations." The deal between France and Pakistan would have brought in 15 million euros per equipped fighter for the ATE consortium.

Suleman also revealed that Pakistan may well order advanced defense missile systems from China, including Chinese Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM) systems.

[rohitvats]

There goes the sooper-dooper bandar.......lot of wet dreams of pakroaches just got halaaled.

[Lalmohan]

lets not write off the SD10 just yet, its probably atleast as good as a sparrow or better
either way, we will have to adjust our tactics

[Pratyush]

is that another avatar of the PL 10. of the late 90s

[andy B]

lets not write off the SD10 just yet, its probably atleast as good as a sparrow or better
either way, we will have to adjust our tactics

is that another avatar of the PL 10. of the late 90s

Correct while the porkis not getting French avionics suite, radar and associated mica is a good thing...I would be quite cautious writting of the SD10. The main factor here is that it is not combat proven just like a lot of Chini systems...again however this still needs to be taken very cautiously.

IMHO what this means is work on ECM, EW, couter measure systems, jammers needs much more attention than what we would have had to do before...while facing PAF

Pratyush, the SD10 is an active radar missile unlike the PL10 which was based on the Italian Aspide sam which is in turn based on the AIM 7 Sparrow...

IIRC porkis are indeed getting the spaada 2000 sam which is broadly similar to the slamraam though the upgraded aspide 2000 sam uses semi active radar homing unlike active radar used by the slamraam

[Pratyush]

That is in addition to the 500 Aim 120s recieved from the Khans?

This will make the need for the FGFA all the more urgent. As the PAF AEW will serve make the battlefield symmetric when coupled with the BVR shooting aircraft and contrasted with the presence of IAF phalcon and the indigenious AEW.

[wig]

In denial till now, Pak quietly names 453 soldiers killed in Kargil WarEleven years after the Kargil War, the Pakistan Army, which has been denying its role in the conflict, has quietly included the names of 453 soldiers and officers in the battle on its website.

Proof of the involvement of regular Pakistani soldiers in the 1999 Kargil War over a string of strategic heights in the Kargil sector of the Line of Control in 1999 has come from an institution that spent years denying its role in the hostilities with India - the Pakistan Army.

The 453 Pakistani soldiers were shown killed in Batalik-Kargil sector in Jammu & Kashmir

In denial till now, Pak quietly names 453 soldiers killed in Kargil War The names of those who died in Kargil are tucked away in a list of thousands of personnel killed while on duty that has been posted in the "Shuhada's Corner" (Martyrs Corner) of the website.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 947919.cms

[kvraghav]

^^
There were some claims that the JF-17 will cost 10 million $.But the article says that the MBDA deal would have brought 15 million euors per equpped fighter.So then whats this 10 mill $ crap if the radar and missiles itself cost 15 million pounds??

[Austin]

The seeker for SD-10 has been supplied or jointly developed with Russian Agat and there were reports that it is the similar to that which equips the AA-12 Adder (X/Ku band )

A mass produce JF-17 with BVR missile will be a big challenge.

[abhik]

The seeker for SD-10 has been supplied or jointly developed with Russian Agat and there were reports that it is the similar to that which equips the AA-12 Adder (X/Ku band )

And doesn't the Astra share the same seeker? yikes!

A mass produce JF-17 with BVR missile will be a big challenge.

"But we are better off producing a 3rd gen 100% swadeshi aircraft onlee"

[Lalmohan]

dont worry abhik, the radar also needs to be very potent in order to detect, track and assign targets to the missile

then there is ECM

[Kanson]

The seeker for SD-10 has been supplied or jointly developed with Russian Agat and there were reports that it is the similar to that which equips the AA-12 Adder (X/Ku band )

And doesn't the Astra share the same seeker? yikes!

That is a stop gap arrangement only. we are developing our own seekers. Becoz of using russian seekers adapted to our missile, lock-on range got reduced to ~15km for a standard RCS(from Agat.ru)). Whereas R-77,SD-10 and AIM-120 that Pak has, got better or equal seeker lock-on range. So you can expect our own seekers with better characteristics.

[Aditya G]

Two informative works on recent developments of Pak Army SSG:

http://smallwarsjournal.com/documents/j ... thesis.pdf

EFFECTIVE AND EFFICIENT TRAINING AND ADVISING IN PAKISTAN
Jason A. Johnston
Major, Special Forces, United States Army
B.A., Excelsior College, 2001
Stephen C. Taylor
Major, Special Forces, United States Army
B.S., United States Military Academy, 1998
Submitted in partial fulfillment of the
requirements for the degree of
MASTER OF SCIENCE IN DEFENSE ANALYSIS
from the
NAVAL POSTGRADUATE SCHOOL
June 2010

...Pakistan’s Special Service Group (SSG) is an extremely professional and capable special operations unit, stood up by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency in 1956, and divided between Pakistan’s Army and Navy, with a special operations air wing from the Air Force to provide support.113 It is designed as a direct action unit. It is comprised of four battalions (or commandos), which can be increased to six battalions of elite infantry, and with a top-tier section capable of surgical direct-action missions.114 This section, the Special Operations Task Force (SOTF), consists of two companies, Karrar and Zarrar, and one supporting battalion, Third Commando. All have been trained extensively by U.S. Special Operations units, the British Special Air Service, and the CIA. The SOTF was the unit responsible for ending the standoff with extremists at the Red Mosque, or Lal Masjid, in Islamabad in 2007.....

http://www.cna.org/documents/D0017988.A4.pdf

Assessments of the Impact of 1206-
Funded Projects in Selected Countries:
Lebanon, Pakistan, Yemen, São Tome and Principe

....

The focus of 1206 projects in Pakistan has been on three distinct,
but inter-related sets of capabilities. The goal is to rapidly increase
the capacity of Pakistan to confront terrorists operating in the Federally
Administered Tribal Areas [FATA] in Eastern Pakistan. Specifically,
the goal is to provide the capability for Pakistani special
operations forces to conduct airborne night strike operations
against terrorists in the FATA.
FY06 1206 projects in Pakistan focused on increasing the capacity
and capability of the Pakistani Army’s rotary wing aviation units.
FY07 projects are currently focusing on improving the equipment
and training available to the Pakistani Army’s special operations
force [SOF], known as the Special Services Group [SSG].

....

According to Pakistani officers in the SSG and the 21st QRF, limited
visibility training and NVG equipment and training has had an operational
impact on forces conducting counterterrorist operations.
The commander of the 21st QRF noted that the training and operational
profile of the 21st QRF has changed as a result of the arrival of
this equipment He also indicated that, with the arrival of the 1206
NVGs, the 21st QRF has completed 1,200 nighttime flying hours using
the 1206-funded equipment. The following chart depicts the
shift in training and operations since the arrival of the NVG equipment
reported by the 21st QRF commander.

...
The commander of the SSG special operations task force reported
that there is both an operational
and psychological impact of having
Cobra helicopters available to
support special operations forces
engaged with terrorists in NWFP
and FATA. Operationally, the
Cobras provide suppressive and
covering fire for the infiltration
and exfiltration of SOF personnel via Mi-17.
52
This is particularly
important, as the Mi-17 has a much slower takeoff and landing profile
than fully assault capable aircraft such as the U.S. UH-60 Blackhawk.
53
The impact is also psychological for the units engaged in
combat operations. According to the commander of the 21st QRF,
“all of our air assault missions require protection for lift [Mi-17] assets;
without the Cobras, we still go but we expose ourselves to danger.”
54 ...

[andy B]

That is in addition to the 500 Aim 120s recieved from the Khans?

This will make the need for the FGFA all the more urgent. As the PAF AEW will serve make the battlefield symmetric when coupled with the BVR shooting aircraft and contrasted with the presence of IAF phalcon and the indigenious AEW.

One of the main reasons why the porkis are getting chipanda aew is because of the compatibility with the bandaar. The erieyes will primarily serve the F16s. JMT

IMVHO a more pressing need than the FGFA is the need for a KS 172 class specialised anti aew/awacs aam. This can be achieved mucho before the FGFA enters service. Load up a few MKIs with a couple of these 200km or > range weapons and watch the fireworks. Induction of this class of weapon can be achieved much faster than the FGFA. The fact is given the lack of geographical depth that porkis have it is going to be tad difficult to run from these ultra long range aams, and even if we manage to get them to go offline it serves the purpose.
Now if the PAF gets its hands on a similar class of weapon the issues it will face is that the phalcon has greater range and given the geographic depth of India it can fly further inside while still keeping an eye...

dont worry abhik, the radar also needs to be very potent in order to detect, track and assign targets to the missile

then there is ECM

Lal mamu in the fields of ECM, EW, CMDS I think the IAF enjoys major sooperiority on the PAF given that we operate regularly the yehudi 8222 series on the MKI, the french ramora on the mirages (which again will get completely new systems with their deep upgrade, the mig 29s will come with their own systems not to mentiond Indian systems like shiva etc will become more prominent). This however will change to an extent with the inducution of the blk 52s.

[Austin]

JF-17 Zhuhai Air Show China 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xoh6YOuuJWs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkCrkZW-89E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM2_LX05ZM0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPMXM9JE-WQ

[Juggi G]

Chinese Official Behind Pak Nuke Plants gets Life Term

[prithvi]

http://www.dawn.com/2010/11/20/us-deliv ... istan.html

[shiv]

The seeker for SD-10 has been supplied or jointly developed with Russian Agat and there were reports that it is the similar to that which equips the AA-12 Adder (X/Ku band )

A mass produce JF-17 with BVR missile will be a big challenge.

If 3rd gen is such a big threat to us how come we are not able to mass produce 1000 3rd gen to counter that? We are now talking 6th gen while we shiver in our dhotis about 3rd gen in Paki/Chinese hands.

Here is an example of what we are doing

in the fields of ECM, EW, CMDS I think the IAF enjoys major sooperiority on the PAF given that we operate regularly the yehudi 8222 series on the MKI, the french ramora on the mirages (which again will get completely new systems with their deep upgrade, the mig 29s will come with their own systems not to mentiond Indian systems like shiva etc will become (not yet there) more prominent). This however will change to an extent with the inducution of the blk 52s.

[shiv]

JF-17 Zhuhai Air Show China 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xoh6YOuuJWs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkCrkZW-89E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM2_LX05ZM0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPMXM9JE-WQ

Thanks for the links. The commentators are ignorant and the weather poor, but very interesting nevertheless.

I would recommend listening to the commentary in the last 60 seconds of the following video.It shows how the Chinese , like the Europeans they talk about have an eye on a foreign market for their products. Unlike you know who.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPMXM9JE-WQ

[shiv]

The uniform blue sky background of those large JF-17 photos above look photoshopped. Admittedly photoshopping makes the plane stand out better against the background.

[shiv]

I like the sixth picture from the top. It's a good illustration of the air flow in a roll. I must add that the flow looks very neat around this plane. I can't be sure of what the JF-17 is worth, but it does seem like those F-18 like LERXs do a good job. I am not sure of the air intakes as such, but aerodynamically the plane should be able to take high AoAs.

There is some photoshopping there. The vapor trail ends too abruptly.

[Austin]

If 3rd gen is such a big threat to us how come we are not able to mass produce 1000 3rd gen to counter that? We are now talking 6th gen while we shiver in our dhotis about 3rd gen in Paki/Chinese hands.

Shiv , any BVR capable fighter is a challenge doesn't matter the so called gen labelling , it will boil down to situational awareness and how they can link it with AWACS and their ADGES , which will gradually happen and if you have read the AW&ST J-10/AESA/Wide Band EW development all these will eventually trickle into JF-17 in the next decade.

You know all that 5th/6th gen talk can keep the most to gain from it like the scientific community and best of brochure folks and jingos busy for the next 10-20 years irrespective if such promising technology ever makes(?) into any significant production numbers in the time frame IAF wants or will it be JSF/FGFA that wins the days remains to be seen

JF-17 is all about the threat which is now and here and not the pie in the sky , I really do not know why they label JF-17 as 3rd gen , it should be early 4th gen fighter since it has all the traits of it barring the famed or unfamed FBW.

Well even the Bison was advertised by Russians as aircraft with 4th gen technology and it has proven its worth in all the exercises and even in close combat WVR fights with MKI where it did a good job.

[prithvi]

just curious ... do we have any idea on the no of f-16s lost by PAF over the years due to crash...

[prithvi]

sorry... got the answers...

http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F ... force/PAF/