India Nuclear News And Discussion

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abhishek_sharma
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Operator will be at supplier's mercy: Left parties

http://www.hindu.com/2010/08/20/stories ... 361600.htm
As for the liability cap and criticism that the Left demand for Rs. 10,000 crore, he said at current terms the recommendation of Rs. 1,500 crore was hardly significant since total liability for each nuclear accident remained capped at 300 million SDRs which was about Rs. 2122.40 core or $ 455 million, less than the Bhopal gas leak settlement.

Referring to international nuclear liability conventions, he said, none set any cap but only a floor limit, with countries like South Korea and Sweden having set operator's liability at 300 million SDRs and not total liability. Japan, Russia and Germany did not have any cap on total liability in contrast to India.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhischekcc »

So, the constable has Added forgery to high treason and other crimes. And people think why I use the word Quisling for him.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

And I thought things could not get more shameful after murder of parliament over the N Deal 2 years back.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by arnab »

abhischekcc wrote:So, the constable has Added forgery to high treason and other crimes. And people think why I use the word Quisling for him.
Hmm - do you have similar thoughts about this particular agreement signed in 2001? Afterall the reactors in question are being imported from a country where Chernobyl occured.
Article 13 states: “The Indian Side and its authorised organisation at any time and at all stages of the construction and operation of the NPP power units to be constructed under the present Agreement shall be the Operator of power units of the NPP at the Kudankulam Site and be fully responsible for any damage both within and outside the territory of the Republic of India caused to any person and property as a result of a nuclear incident occurring at the NPP.”
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

Dear Arnab; was the above issue also saw incidents attempts of insertion of forged bill into parliament?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Philip »

I agree.No matter if Russia is our long time friend,the country has to be protected against supply of defective N-eqpt/tech,as was done at Bhopal,leading to the catastrophic disaster.One suggestion made was to let foreign N-plant operators set up their plants and run them entirely themselves,thus making them fully liable.If the GOI wants toi operate all such N-plants,then a fail-safe liability agreement must be drawn up allowing the GOI to go after a N-supplier just as Obama is going after BP for its liability.There cannot be a different standard for India here! This is what the opposition should demand,that any agreement/terms of contract should make the supplier liable just as BP is for the Gulf oil disaster.

Nevertheless, what this issue underlines is that we cannot make N-power the sole power generating option for the country.We have to adopt a holistic approach,using all kinds of power,traditional hydel and thermal,including renewable eco-friendly energy from solar and wind (offshore too) power.If the woeful condition of transmission is set right ,this alone will see a huge jump in power availability.sadly though,the GOI is not giving enough incentives to the non-traditional eco-friendly forms-wind and solar,because spending billions on N-power plants is an easier way to "skim the cream" off the top just as is being done in the CWGames.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Neela »

abhishek_sharma wrote:Operator will be at supplier's mercy: Left parties

http://www.hindu.com/2010/08/20/stories ... 361600.htm
As for the liability cap and criticism that the Left demand for Rs. 10,000 crore, he said at current terms the recommendation of Rs. 1,500 crore was hardly significant since total liability for each nuclear accident remained capped at 300 million SDRs which was about Rs. 2122.40 core or $ 455 million, less than the Bhopal gas leak settlement.

Referring to international nuclear liability conventions, he said, none set any cap but only a floor limit, with countries like South Korea and Sweden having set operator's liability at 300 million SDRs and not total liability. Japan, Russia and Germany did not have any cap on total liability in contrast to India.

Can someone explain the difference between a floor limit and a liability cap please.

TIA
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

OK here's the latest news:

Govt bows to BJP demand, drops 'and' word from N-bill


Also, those who are supporting the Left's point of having 10,000 crore liability should read this:

Higher liability in N-Bill will make nuclear power costly
A nuclear expert, who did not want to be quoted, told Business Standard that: “If a policy is taken for 300 million SDR (Special Drawing Rights), then at the premium rate of 1.8 per cent to 2.7 per cent suggested by the department of financial services, the premium comes to Rs 51.75 crore per month, Rs 621 crore in a year and if one takes 40 years as life time of a plant, then it is Rs 24,840 crore. Of course, it is assumed that the premium will remain static for 40 years.”
Of course it would be great to peg liability to a zillion dollars but here's a conspiracy theory: What's the best way to kill the benefits of the nuclear deal via the backdoor? It's by raising costs (of electricity generation etc) by pegging the liability level to such a level that it does not make economic sense for suppliers to sell equipment.

Now guess who (or rather which countries) would like that to happen. And now guess at which direction Comarade Karat et al look at which doing their namaskars the first thing in the morning.

No point in letting your BP run amok without looking at things in perspective. Of course that's my VVVVHMO.
Last edited by amit on 20 Aug 2010 12:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

It is really a conspiracy theory!
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

abhishek_sharma wrote:It is really a conspiracy theory!
It may be more closer to reality than you think my friend. The Left, specifically Karat risked his career, his party's fortunes and went totally against the wishes of the state leadership of the state which has voted for the party for more than 30 years.

And for what? To somehow scupper the N deal. Now step back and think who - meaning which countries - wanted the N deal to fail? Mind you I'm not saying/alleging Karat did it for personal gains. But ideological brainwashing can result in twisted decisions. I've seen the results from very close quarters.

JMT of course
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

^^^^^^
The other point IMO that one needs to keep in perspective is that while both the BJP and the Left two years ago opposed the nuclear deal and today are/were opposing the liabilities bill draft, there is considerable difference in what they are/were opposing to.

To club all opposition into some sort of unified opposition-basing a renegade/traitorous UPA narrative is IMO a case of missing the woods for the trees. And it just gives legitimacy to the Left which is making a last ditch effort to scupper the benefits of the nuclear deal.

JMT
Last edited by amit on 20 Aug 2010 13:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

I have no great admiration for the Communists. But given the history of Bhopal tragedy and the behavior of Dow Chemicals, we need to have proper laws for foreign suppliers.

It is not about the failure of N-deal. The question is: What is the cost of nuclear energy when we have proper insurance? If it is too expensive, we should not rely on it.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

abhishek_sharma wrote:I have no great admiration for the Communists. But given the history of Bhopal tragedy and the behavior of Dow Chemicals, we need to have proper laws for foreign suppliers.

It is not about the failure of N-deal. The question is: What is the cost of nuclear energy when we have proper insurance? If it is too expensive, we should not rely on it.
Boss, I hate to say this but your post shows up exactly what I said in my previous post. Sure we need a strong liabilities bill and I think BJP was working towards that, even though I don't support or like the party's apparent anathema to private operators.

The CPIM, on the other hand was not really, IMO, interested in a liabilities bill which was realistic. Instead it was using the issue to flog the overall nuclear deal.

And two years on, I don't think even those who opposed the deal most vehemently at that point of time would say now that it was a bad deal to get into.

And yes, last post from me in this vein, I don't want to start another round of chest-beating. :-)

Added later: Your point about proper insurance, the question is how would you define "proper". We've got a bunch of nuclear power plants already operational. We've go another bunch which is being built with Russian help etc. Now, god forbid, if an accident happenned to any one of them, then what's the "proper" insurance figure for them?

The point to note IMO is that in the event of a N-disaster, no amount of insurance cover would be "proper" or "adequate" - the scale of devastation would be so high. But at the same time N-plants are among the most safest means to generate electricity because everyone is extra careful be it the operators and be it the equipment suppliers.

So IMO, "proper" should be a figure which would trend to the upper limit of what we can squeeze out of equipment vendors without scaring them off. Is 1,500 crore that limit? I don't know but the committee has arrived at that figure so I reckon they may have done their calculations.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

Regarding the Bhopal gas disaster, I think one crucial point needs to be kept in mind, when comparing the incident with possible scenarios involving nuclear power generation in India. And that is the Union Carbide/Dow Chemicals plant was owned and operated by the entity. On the other hand nuclear power plants would be owned by the Indian government or government owned institutions. And the liability bill targets companies which would be supplying the equipment and not the folks who will be running the plant.

When we put Union Carbide/Dow Chemicals in the dock (as we should rightly do so, if I may add) we are doing so because they were both the operator and owner of the Bhopal facility and not because they supplied the defective pipes which leaked and set off that massive tragedy. It is most likely that the equipment which went into the factory was supplied by totally different vendors.

Bottomline: IMO it is good to keep Bhopal on our radars as a reminder of what could go wrong, but we need to remember it's not really a apples to apples comparison.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

amit wrote: The point to note IMO is that in the event of a N-disaster, no amount of insurance cover would be "proper" or "adequate" - the scale of devastation would be so high. But at the same time N-plants are among the most safest means to generate electricity because everyone is extra careful be it the operators and be it the equipment suppliers.

So IMO, "proper" should be a figure which would trend to the upper limit of what we can squeeze out of equipment vendors without scaring them off. Is 1,500 crore that limit? I don't know but the committee has arrived at that figure so I reckon they may have done their calculations.

There is no doubt that the lives of dead people cannot be brought back. However, the amount should be enough for cleaning the area and providing compensation to the family members of people who died.

The average compensation for 9/11 victims was $1.8 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_ ... ation_Fund

We should calculate how much the victims would have earned in their lifetime and give it to their family members.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by D Roy »

This red herring of the liability amount somehow spawning greater safety standards is the biggest piece of BS ever.

greater Liability is not equal to greater safety. it is not equal to a deterrent.

What is going on is that China will end up having the most carbon competitive industrial sector into the 2030-40s and we'll keep doing

Bhajpa-kangrass forever.

The intellectual class of this country is really letting it down.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

abhishek_sharma wrote:The average compensation for 9/11 victims was $1.8 million.
Great, now 9/11 victims' compensation should be the benchmark for calculating how much liability we should impose on equipment suppliers!
We should calculate how much the victims would have earned in their lifetime and give it to their family members.
And how exactly do you propose to do that before an accident occurs, can you please enlighten us?

Please do remember that any new plant based on the liabilities bill is unlikely to come online before 2016-17 (optimistic estimate) and if we take the average lifespan of the plant to be 40 years the accident could occur anytime between 2017 to 2057. Surely, it's not your argument that the average earning power of Indians would remain constant throughout the period?

And mind you, you have to calculate all that today in 2010. So unless you add an inflator to the liability amount or peg it to the growth in Indian per capita, how are you going to arrive at this figure?

I think it's useful to think this through logically and not emotionally.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

D Roy wrote:What is going on is that China will end up having the most carbon competitive industrial sector into the 2030-40s and we'll keep doing

Bhajpa-kangrass forever.

The intellectual class of this country is really letting it down.
D Roy this is exactly what the Left is trying to help facilitate and some folks here are just not thinking this through.
greater Liability is not equal to greater safety. it is not equal to a deterrent.
So true.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Great, now 9/11 victims' compensation should be the benchmark for calculating how much liability we should impose on equipment suppliers!
It depends. If the operators caused the accident, then the suppliers don't need to pay.

However, if the nuclear reactors (or other equipments) were faulty, then the suppliers are responsible for the compensation.



amit wrote:
And how exactly do you propose to do that before an accident occurs, can you please enlighten us?
We should estimate the size of an accident which could occur, and the damage it would cause. Data from previous nuclear accidents would be used.
amit wrote: Please do remember that any new plant based on the liabilities bill is unlikely to come online before 2016-17 (optimistic estimate) and if we take the average lifespan of the plant to be 40 years the accident could occur anytime between 2017 to 2057. Surely, it's not your argument that the average earning power of Indians would remain constant throughout the period? .

And mind you, you have to calculate all that today in 2010. So unless you add an inflator to the liability amount or peg it to the growth in Indian per capita, how are you going to arrive at this figure?
Who said we should not adjust it for the changing income and inflation?

I think it's useful to think this through logically and not emotionally.
I am aware of that. Thanks.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

abhishek_sharma wrote:We should estimate the size of an accident which could occur, and the damage it would cause. Data from previous nuclear accidents would be used.


Which data do you propose to use? Three Island or Chernobyl?

I ask this because both fall under the nomenclature of nuclear accidents but I think you'll agree that the magnitude of disaster in both cases were slightly different.

But all this back and forth is moving away from the original point. And that is how are you going to pin down equipment suppliers liability today, now based on such calculations - in other words how do you arrive at the correct dollar figure? You haven't shed any light on that despite bringing up issues like Bhopal, compensation for 9/11 victims, estimated life time earnings of potential victims, cost of clean up and size of an accident and the damage it could cause.

In short do you think the 1500 crore figure is adequate or inadequate? Are you more inclined to go with Prakash Karat's 10000 crore figure?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Uttam »

Higher liability in N-Bill will make nuclear power costly

A nuclear expert, who did not want to be quoted, told Business Standard that: “If a policy is taken for 300 million SDR (Special Drawing Rights), then at the premium rate of 1.8 per cent to 2.7 per cent suggested by the department of financial services, the premium comes to Rs 51.75 crore per month, Rs 621 crore in a year and if one takes 40 years as life time of a plant, then it is Rs 24,840 crore. Of course, it is assumed that the premium will remain static for 40 years.”
A simple model of insurance premium:

Premium = the size of liability * the probability of the having to pay that liability.

Operators and suppliers can reduce the Premium by making their plants safer, i.e. reduce the probability of an accident. Not having a liability protection does not mean there is no cost associated with possible accident. I suppose in absence of liability protection, the nation will depend on a bunch of bureaucrats to determine how safe the plants are. (We all know how well functioning bureaucracy we have!!)

Without liability protection, the operators and suppliers are less likely to be attentive to safety, especially because there is no market to measure the risk being created by them. Reduced safety in fact will raise the cost, not decrease it and the nation and its citizens pay the cost.

Reduced liability (worst case ZERO liability) --------> Needs Less (No) Liability Insurance ----------> No market monitoring of risk (and I don't trust our bureaucracy) ---------> Reduced emphasis on Safety -------------> Increases Probability of an accident ----------> Nation pays the HIGHER cost (since there is no liability insurance)

My conclusion: Any Liability insurance that is less than the actual value of LOSS is likely to increase the cost and not decrease the cost
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Raja Ram, may be you can explain the insurance side also, for the benefit of us all.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by RoyG »

The U.S.-India nuclear deal

The wages of the nuclear deal


Brahma Chellaney

Mint, August 16, 2010

The quiet signing of the reprocessing agreement on 30 July has completed the last remaining bilateral element of the nuclear deal with the U.S. The multilateral elements are not only complete, but also being implemented. For example, India already has brought 16 of its nuclear facilities under permanent international inspection — a number scheduled to progressively go up to cover two-thirds of all Indian nuclear installations within four years. In addition, India is set to shut down by this year-end its main military-production workhorse, the Cirus reactor — the biggest cumulative contributor of weapons-grade plutonium to the country’s stockpile.

Yet, despite the deal being in force, India continues to battle major technology controls. China has greater access than India does to U.S. high technology, and this is unlikely to change after the ongoing Obama administration review of American export controls. Because the review is being driven by the barely disguised business goal to increase U.S. share of the Chinese market so as to reduce the yawning trade deficit, the China-India access gap can only widen in Beijing’s favour.

What tangible benefits, strategic or otherwise, has the deal yielded for India? Let’s face it: The Americans were more honest than the Indians about the deal. The final deal has turned out to be in line with what the U.S. Congress mandated, not what the Indian Parliament had repeatedly been assured by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

In fact, the deal conforms fully to the provisions of the 2006 Hyde Act. The congressional ratification legislation — the 2008 Nuclear Cooperation Approval and Non-Proliferation Enhancement Act, or NCANEA — actually tightened some of the Hyde Act provisions. The Indian side had publicly claimed that the Hyde Act would not determine the final deal, with some in authority even seeking to creatively differentiate between “operative” and “non-binding” parts of that Act. It had further been claimed that the 123 Agreement, once ratified, would become the “last expression of the sovereign will” and override all other laws including national laws.

These too-clever-by-half arguments have fallen flat on their face. Nothing can be more embarrassing to the Indian side than the fact that the bilateral accords it negotiated and signed — the 123 Agreement and the reprocessing pact — match up to U.S. congressional stipulations.

Worse still, the accords have been made subservient to American law. Take the 123 Agreement, which neither contains the international-law principle (found in the U.S.-China accord) that neither party will invoke its internal law as justification for a failure to honour the accord, nor provides (unlike the U.S.-Japan or U.S.-South Korea accord) for an arbitral tribunal to settle any dispute. As the NCANEA makes explicit, “Nothing in the [123] Agreement shall be construed to supersede the legal requirements of the Henry J. Hyde Act.”

As a result, the final deal ends up giving America specific rights — enforceable through the pain of unilateral suspension or termination of cooperation — while saddling India with obligations. The NCANEA actually records that the promise of uninterrupted fuel supply is a “political,” not legal, commitment. It cannot be anything else because the 123 Agreement itself confers an open-ended right on the U.S. to suspend fuel supplies straight away while issuing a one-year termination notice. In fact, as a corollary to that right, the U.S. has retained the prerogative in the reprocessing accord to unilaterally suspend its reprocessing consent to India.

What stands out about the final deal are the four “No”s for India: No binding fuel-supply guarantee to avert a Tarapur-style fuel cut-off; no irrevocable reprocessing consent; no right to withdraw from its obligations; and no right to conduct a nuclear test ever again. The no-test obligation constitutes the first instance in the nuclear age where one nuclear-weapons power has used a civilian cooperation deal to impose such a prohibition on another nuclear-weapons state. The Cirus’s impending dismantlement is another weapons-related obligation thrust on India.

No country in history has struggled longer to build a minimal deterrent or paid heavier international costs for its nuclear programme than India. Despite Asia’s oldest nuclear programme, India now has the world’s smallest nuclear arsenal — smaller than even Pakistan’s. More significant is that India still does not have a single Beijing-reachable nuclear missile in its inventory or production line. It is against that background that the nuclear deal marks a turning point.

The lasting legacy of the deal, in which the Indian government invested considerable time and diplomatic resources, will be to ensure that India stays enmeshed in its struggle to build regionally confined nuclear-weapons capability while becoming more reliant than ever on conventional arms imports to meet its basic defence needs. If ever there was hope of India becoming a full-fledged nuclear-weapons state like China, that prospect has passed.

A closer relationship with the U.S. is in India’s own interest. But it could have been built without a deal that carries serious, long-term costs. Indeed, such are the wages of the deal that India has refrained from speaking up on regional-security issues that directly impinge on its interests, including the continuing transfer of offensive U.S. weapon systems to Pakistan, now the largest recipient of American economic and military aid in the world. Islamabad, in fact, has managed to cut its own deal to buy two China-origin reactors without the burden of conditions cast on India.

Brahma Chellaney is professor of strategic studies at the Centre for Policy Research in New Delhi

Comments are welcome at [email protected]

http://chellaney.spaces.live.com/blog/c ... 1238.entry
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by vera_k »

Is the liability limit of Rs. 1500 CR indexed to inflation? What index is it linked to?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by putnanja »

Cloud of ‘and’ on nuke bill passes
New Delhi, Aug. 20: The government gave in to the BJP’s demand to drop an offending “and” that had yesterday threatened to upset the passage of the nuclear liability bill.

The word sneaked into the report of an all-party parliamentary panel that had vetted the Civil Liability for Nuclear Damage Bill, 2010, and took the BJP and the Left by surprise when it sprung up on a certain page that was clumsily stapled over the original sheet that made no mention of “and”.

...
...
Although the BJP had no credible answer on why the word caught the attention of its leaders such as Arun Jaitley, Sushma Swaraj and Yashwant Sinha a day after the parliamentary report was released and why it waited for a news report before reacting, government sources were at pains to establish that the Opposition party was “not really at fault”. “The BJP behaved most responsibly on the bill. We will be petulant if we picked holes in its contention,” a Congress minister said.

The minister indicated that T. Subbarami Reddy, who headed the standing committee, was “at fault”. “For some reason, he was keen on putting the word ‘and’ even though he was told the Left would protest. However, the report was printed without this word. We were told that Reddy made a song and dance of its absence and had the page reprinted to include the ‘and’. In his zeal, he forgot to remove the original page and gave away the gaffe,” the minister said.

Independent observers of India’s nuclear roller-coast ride, however, believed that Reddy was singled out as the fall guy. They said the world over, the nuclear industry resisted making suppliers liable for paying damages in a disaster. India is apparently finding it tough to convince old ally Russia of including a provision for a nuclear plant operator’s right of recourse in a contract it may sign with it.

....
...
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Airavat »

Nuclear engineering international
Excavation works have been started for two Indian-designed 700MW pressurised heavy water reactors (PHWRs)– units 7&8 at Rajasthan Atomic Power Project. The works began in the afternoon of 19 August, after clearance had been received from the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board the previous day.

Excavation work for two more indigenous PHWRs at the Kakrapar Atomic Power Project 3&4 has already been completed. Nuclear Power Corporation of India (NPCIL) says it is waiting for AERB clearance for first concrete at KAPP-3&4 in Gujarat state.

First concrete at RAPP-7&8 is planned for December 2010 and the reactors are slated for commercial operation in June 2016 and December 2016, respectively. NPCIL put the base cost of RAPP-7&8 at Rs.73 billion ($1.5 billion) in June 2008, and the estimated completion costs at some Rs.123 billion ($2.6 billion).

Currently, NPCIL owns 18 nuclear power reactors with an installed capacity of 4460MW. It is also is constructing three reactors, Kaiga-4 (220MW), Kudankulam 1&2 (2x1000MW) and initial work has begun on the four indigenous PHWRs at Rajasthan and Kakrapar.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Moral hazard of indemnifying suppliers

Suvrat Raju & M.V. Ramana

http://www.hindu.com/2010/08/21/stories ... 641200.htm

After World War II, European governments were keen to adopt nuclear power but lacked the necessary technical expertise. On the other hand, American companies were keen to sell their nuclear plants but were unwilling to accept responsibility for accidents. So, the U.S. Atomic Industrial forum (an industry group) recommended legislative intervention to make it impossible for anyone to file a liability claim against atomic suppliers. These suggestions were made in a report called the “Harvard report,” which included a draft legislation in its annex. In a few years, this annex went on to become the Paris convention and all future international liability legislations have insulated nuclear suppliers.

Ironically, the U.S. under its own Price-Anderson Act does allow victims to sue suppliers. In fact, this is the reason that it did not accede either to the Paris convention or even to later agreements like the Vienna convention. When it finally engineered the Convention on Supplementary Compensation in 1997, it included a “grandfather clause” that would allow it to keep this aspect of its tort law unchanged while forcing newer signatories like India to renounce their right to take action against suppliers.

India's decision to join the CSC is not only a surrender to a manifestly unfair international regime but will also have an impact on the safety of nuclear installations in India. Insulating suppliers from responsibility implies that their job is done, once they have persuaded the regulatory authority, by whatever means, of the safety of their design. This has several implicit dangers.

The first is that suppliers are constantly trying to balance safety concerns with the need to make their design economical. For example, recent reactor designs adopt what are called “passive” safety measures, instead of the traditional “active” measures, not because these are inherently safer but because they are cheaper. This, combined with the ideological proclivity of the nuclear industry to assume that its designs are safe (not unlike the claims made by the oil industry about the safety of offshore drilling), means that suppliers tend to err on the side of economics rather than safety. Allowing potential claims against suppliers would help redress this imbalance.

Second, the Indian regulatory authority — the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board (AERB) — is ill-prepared to vet new plant designs.

...

Finally, indemnifying suppliers means that they have no incentive to share safety concerns with the operator if they come to light after the plant has been sold. This is far from being a theoretical concern. In the accident at Three Mile Island (TMI), which occurred partly because of a design-failure, the Kemeny Commission, appointed by Jimmy Carter, noted that “several earlier warnings that operators needed clear instructions for dealing with events like those during the TMI accident had been disregarded by Babcock & Wilcox (B&W) [the supplier of the TMI reactor].”

To summarise, protecting suppliers from lawsuits creates a classic example of, what in insurance parlance, is called a “moral hazard”: insulating a party from risk has a distorting effect on its behaviour. In particular, indemnifying suppliers is likely to make them pay less attention to safety and encourage them to take greater risks.

...

It is true that these provisions would make it hard for India to accede to the CSC and for U.S. suppliers to sell nuclear plants to India. However, the Indian Parliament is charged with framing laws that benefit the Indian people; it has no obligation to American corporations.
abhishek_sharma
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

amit wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:We should estimate the size of an accident which could occur, and the damage it would cause. Data from previous nuclear accidents would be used.


Which data do you propose to use? Three Island or Chernobyl?

I ask this because both fall under the nomenclature of nuclear accidents but I think you'll agree that the magnitude of disaster in both cases were slightly different.

But all this back and forth is moving away from the original point. And that is how are you going to pin down equipment suppliers liability today, now based on such calculations - in other words how do you arrive at the correct dollar figure? You haven't shed any light on that despite bringing up issues like Bhopal, compensation for 9/11 victims, estimated life time earnings of potential victims, cost of clean up and size of an accident and the damage it could cause.

In short do you think the 1500 crore figure is adequate or inadequate? Are you more inclined to go with Prakash Karat's 10000 crore figure?
I think we have to mention the upper limit for the compensation in the bill. Naturally, we should estimate the size of the worst nuclear accident which could occur from a given reactor. Expected number of deaths from the accident, expected growth in per capita income and life expectancy would be used to compute the total compensation. Such an estimate will be pretty large. But the probability of a nuclear accident is low. Therefore, the expected increase in electricity costs should be manageable.

Note that the foreign suppliers don't have to pay the whole compensation. If they are responsible for 40% of the mess, they would pay 40% of compensation.

I understand that we are disadvantaging the nuclear industry if similar costs are not imposed on greenhouse gases emitted by coal-powered plants. I believe we should do something to fix this asymmetry.
Last edited by abhishek_sharma on 21 Aug 2010 09:05, edited 1 time in total.
abhishek_sharma
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

It is not the case that greater liability would not lead to greater security. Barack Obama's tirade on BP was hurting millions of British citizens. The share price of BP tumbled.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... oners.html

Now, which oil company wants to emulate BP? Fearing billions in compensation and loss in share prices, I think a rational entity would probably invest in better safety mechanisms.

It is true that this liability bill is worthless if the accused can bend the rules and circumvent the laws.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

No room for stealth - Editorial in The Hindu
But in the light of persistent official efforts to protect suppliers from any liability for nuclear damage, Parliament must insist that the new law bar operators from signing contracts with foreign companies that negate or cast aside the rights that are now being given to them in statute. It is also necessary to subject the final text of the Bill to a close reading to ensure that the same hidden hands have not introduced ‘minor' changes that could end up having major implications.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Ex-AERB Director has a different take on the N-Liability Bill
The former Atomic Energy Regulatory Board Chairman, A. Gopalakrishnan, has said the Civil Liability for Nuclear Damage Bill will lead to clipping the country's indigenous nuclear technology capabilities.

Back in 2008, he said, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had, without consulting Parliament or the people, promised the U.S. that India would purchase 10,000 MWe worth of LWRs from it. This, Mr. Gopalakrishnan claimed, was under pressure from the U.S. administration for getting the ‘123' agreement passed by Congress.

Dr. Singh had also promised French President Nicolas Sarkozy that India would purchase French reactors, in return for his help in circumventing the Nuclear Suppliers Group's conditionalities. Without a liability law that let reactor manufacturers off the hook in the event of a nuclear accident, these companies would not dare do business with India, Mr. Gopalakrishnan said.

The former AERB chief pointed out that India was a leading country in thorium breeder reactor technology and was poised to build thorium-based reactors routinely by 2040. The country had abundant resources of thorium raw material in the sands of Kerala's shores. Moreover, the indigenous nuclear technology capabilities would, in another 10 years, enable India to design and build 1000-MWe pressurised heavy water reactors (PHWRs).

“This is a natural progression; we started off with 220-MWe reactors, now we are in the process of building 700 MWe units and soon we will acquire the capability to build 1000-MWe reactors.” (The largest LWR India now plans to import is a 1,650-MWe French reactor.)

The plan to import 40,000 MWe-worth reactors during 2015-35 would shelve the thorium-based breeder reactor technology currently under development. “We have two generations of top-class nuclear scientists and engineers who have been painstakingly trained, we have the technological and industrial capability and we have abundant raw materials,” Mr. Gopalakrishnan said. “All these will go waste if we predominantly start relying on import of the highly expensive U.S. and French reactors.”
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

^^
the thorium-based breeder reactor technology
This is an important technology in which India has an edge. Thorium based reactors closes a technology loop to make India self sufficient in Nuclear technology while producing more than enough weapons grade uranium and plutonium outside the control of FMCT/NPT/NSG stranglehold.

India has fourth largest known recoverable thorium reserves in the world.
In India, the Kamini 30 kWth experimental neutron-source research reactor using U-233, recovered from ThO2 fuel irradiated in another reactor, started up in 1996 near Kalpakkam. The reactor was built adjacent to the 40 MWt Fast Breeder Test Reactor, in which the ThO2 is irradiated.
In India, thorium has been used for power flattening in the initial cores of the two Kakrapar pressurised heavy water reactors (PHWRs).
# Advanced heavy water reactor (AHWR) – India is working on this and, like the Canadian ACR design, the 300 MWe AHWR design is light water cooled. The main part of the core is subcritical with Th/U-233 oxide and Th/Pu-239 oxide, mixed so that the system is self-sustaining in U-233. The initial core will be entirely Th-Pu-239 oxide fuel assemblies, but as U-233 is available, 30 of the fuel pins in each assembly will be Th-U-233 oxide, arranged in concentric rings. It is designed for 100-year plant life and is expected to utilise 65% of the energy of the fuel. About 75% of the power will come from the thorium.
# Fast breeder reactor (FBRs), along with the AHWRs, play an essential role in India's three-stage nuclear power programme (see section on India's plans for thorium cycle below). A 500 MWe prototype FBR under construction in Kalpakkam is designed to breed U-233 from thorium.
ndia's plans for thorium cycle

With about six times more thorium than uranium, India has made utilization of thorium for large-scale energy production a major goal in its nuclear power programme, utilising a three-stage concept:

* Pressurised heavy water reactors (PHWRs) fuelled by natural uranium, plus light water reactors, producing plutonium.
* Fast breeder reactors (FBRs) using plutonium-based fuel to breed U-233 from thorium. (this is critical step where India has achieved significant breakthrough)The blanket around the core will have uranium as well as thorium, so that further plutonium (particularly Pu-239) is produced as well as the U-233.
* Advanced heavy water reactors burn the U-233 and this plutonium with thorium, getting about 75% of their power from the thorium. The used fuel will then be reprocessed to recover fissile materials(weapons grade) for recycling.

This Indian programme has moved from aiming to be sustained simply with thorium to one 'driven' with the addition of further fissile uranium and plutonium, to give greater efficiency. In 2009, despite the relaxation of trade restrictions on uranium, India reaffirmed its intention to proceed with developing the thorium cycle.

Another option for the third stage, while continuing with the PHWR and FBR stages, is the use of subcritical accelerator driven systems.

Experts are mainly worried out slowdown on the thorium cycle development with 123 and conditionality being imposed.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

In this week's Outlook magazine, there's a rather sensationalistic tone to an article about the alleged theft of defense/nuclear information from the missing laptops of officials.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by putnanja »

Fresh changes in N-bill may trigger a new row
...
...
One of the 18 amendments cleared by the Union Cabinet yesterday suggests that an accident in a nuclear plant should have occurred as a consequence of an act done with an "intent" if an operator has to claim damages from supplier.

The amended Clause 17 says "the operator of a nuclear installation, after paying the compensation for nuclear damage in accordance with Section 6, shall have a right of recourse where --

(a) such right is expressly provided for in a contract in writing;

(b) the nuclear incident has resulted as a consequence of an act of supplier or his employees, done with the intent to cause nuclear damage, and such act includes supply of equipment or material with patent or latent defects or sub-standard services;

(c) the nuclear incident has resulted from the act of commission or ommission of an individual done with intent to cause nuclear damage."

Experts feel that the mention of "intent" in the sub-clauses (b) and (c) regarding an accident may give a route to suppliers to escape responsibility because it would be difficult to prove intent in any such mishap.


....
...
Which supplier in his right mind will accept that he supplied equipments with intent to damage? Why isn't manufacturing/design defects taken care of??

Looks like the govt is going whole hog to indemnify the suppliers !!
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by chetak »

putnanja wrote:Fresh changes in N-bill may trigger a new row
...
...
One of the 18 amendments cleared by the Union Cabinet yesterday suggests that an accident in a nuclear plant should have occurred as a consequence of an act done with an "intent" if an operator has to claim damages from supplier.

The amended Clause 17 says "the operator of a nuclear installation, after paying the compensation for nuclear damage in accordance with Section 6, shall have a right of recourse where --

(a) such right is expressly provided for in a contract in writing;

(b) the nuclear incident has resulted as a consequence of an act of supplier or his employees, done with the intent to cause nuclear damage, and such act includes supply of equipment or material with patent or latent defects or sub-standard services;

(c) the nuclear incident has resulted from the act of commission or ommission of an individual done with intent to cause nuclear damage."

Experts feel that the mention of "intent" in the sub-clauses (b) and (c) regarding an accident may give a route to suppliers to escape responsibility because it would be difficult to prove intent in any such mishap.


....
...
Which supplier in his right mind will accept that he supplied equipments with intent to damage? Why isn't manufacturing/design defects taken care of??

Looks like the govt is going whole hog to indemnify the suppliers !!

makes one sort of wonder who's been paid off. :evil:
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

‘Further changes in liability bill if need be'

http://www.hindu.com/2010/08/22/stories ... 671000.htm
The sources stressed that without some protection for the supplier, at best “Russia and France will come…People don't realise that you cannot force a supplier to supply technology.”

The unsaid part was – that the U.S. may not be willing to sell nuclear technology unless India's domestic law protects the supplier.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Muppalla »

N-Bill may hit roadblock again - Revised draft gives suppliers a long rope
After all, nobody is forcing a supplier to sell equipment to us...he will stay away if he is unhappy with this clause,” it was pointed out, indirectly admitting to the opposition charge that there was pressure from suppliers.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Muppalla »

Blow hot and blow cold.

BJP to oppose amended N-bill in Parliament
New Delhi: The BJP on Sunday said it would oppose a controversial amendment made in the Civil Nuclear Liability Bill which would come up for discussion in Lok Sabha on August 25.
Critics of this sub-clause say it is nearly impossible to prove 'intent' in the court of law and hence would make it difficult for victims to seek damages from the supplier.

Significantly, neither the original bill nor the recommendations of Parliamentary Standing Committee which examined it had contained such a proposal. Only earlier this week, the government had to beat a hasty retreat when a controversy arose over inclusion of a word "And" between sub-clauses (a) and (b) in Clause 17 which the BJP and Left parties feared diluted the supplier's liability in case of an accident.
I see the GOI is simply idiotic and why can't they just be honest and say India is a middle class country and cannot expect west style liabilities. If we need to do business we need to forego some safety and also compensations. Unless the current generations take risk there is no future for future generations.

From the start of the Nuke deal they should have campaigned with such a lemon. Now they are again in a situation where they are not able to bring their main opposition party on to the table inspite of using CBI agains Modi etc. They are now with no option other than the time tested option of buying either Mayawati or the two Yadav greats. They did the same for passing Nuke bill in UPA-1, they did the same to pass regular budged in UPA-2. Now they have to do the same. What a pity.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Muppalla »

BJP to oppose diluted Nuclear liability bill
With the Cabinet diluting the right to recourse of the operator to sue the supplier in the event of a nuclear accident, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) once again moved into the ‘nay-sayer’ column and vowed to defeat the civil nuclear liability bill in Parliament.
Given the strong opposition from BJP and the Left, the government has only two options — either take a fresh look at the proposed legislation or streamroll it through the House by repeating the cut motion strategy. {UPA-2 always has to do these kind of miracles onlee inspite of 208. What good to go from 140 to 208 :) hahahahaha} As Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is keen on the passage of the bill before US President Barack Obama’s visit to India{ET is insulting MMS :twisted: . If TOI is a member of BR it will get warned. } , the government will take a call on the issue in the next two days.
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