Indian Army: News & Discussion

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 May 2010 14:12

shiv wrote:If we are going to nitpick - the Indian army has 3500 tanks and the IAF about 700 combat aircraft.

248 (Arjuns)/3500 is 7%
40(LCAs)/700 is 5.7%

Here is a statement you made
Being correct in one instance does not give the RIGHT to be grossly incorrect in some other.

point A, LCA is not ready YET, IAF has already gone ahead and placed a 40 order with promises of more if everything goes alright. or consider the LCH project, which the IAF partially funded from the very beginning of the project. in fact, it was due to IAF's insistence that the political go ahead was expedited. what is the amount of money that the army has invested in the country's MBT project, which is arguably its most important project ? clearly, the army has no stake in the success of this project, it has no sense of ownership towards it, so to speak. is it any wonder that it has been consistently pushed towards failure by a long line of senior officers who couldn't look beyond their petty egos ?
we have had senior officers like DGMF's unblinkingly uttering falsehoods to justify why the IA would not consider the arjun, what more proof of this almost institutional bias do we want ?

point B, the arjun was more or less ready by 2000 itself, the army DID NOT accept the tank on its own but was forced by the govt. since they couldn't do anything about that, the induction trials were drawn on and on to prevent even that small number from inducted. we have been hearing about comparative trials from 2007, that too was stalled for 3 years because the people at helm knew pretty well how their favourite piece of junk was going to fare in a face-off. even as late as last year we had senior army officers commenting how they were not going to accept any more arjuns over the 124 already forced upon them since it was 'obsolete'. they would rather induct a futuristic FMBT, meanwhile they would continue to induct a 70's design tank, suitably made-up and call it our tank for the 21st century. now however, the MOD vision document about the army's wishlist for a futuristic tank shows it is much closer to the arjun than the t-series. yet it was the arjun that was rejected as 'obsolete'.
I'm not quite sure why you think these two situations(LCA and arjun) are similar, it seems to me there is a huge difference how the respective services have approached the programs.

if the IA does induct more arjuns in the future, it would signal a change in the DGMF's thinking. that does not invalidate the conclusion that the arjun project has been stalled for no real reason for about ten years now and the army has gone ahead and wasted public money to buy a tank that is
a) not good enough to protect its soldiers
b) not what it wanted in the first place either.

arun · Post by **arun** » 30 May 2010 16:19

X Posted from the Military Acquisitions thread.

There is a 60 Hovercraft requirement by the Indian Army with 2 separate RFI’s floating around.

One is for 16 AIR CUSHIONED VEHICLES TROOP CARRIAGE – ACV (TC) capable of transporting 80 fully armed and equipped men:

ACV (TC)

The other is for 44 AIR CUSHIONED VEHICLES RECCE & PATROLLING – ACV (R&P) capable of transporting 10 fully armed and equipped men:

ACV (R&P)

Both the RFI has been put out by the E in C branch of the Army.

What is the E in C branch? Engineer in Chief?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 01 Jun 2010 02:42

Army to Soon Get High-Tech Weapons, Vehicles: PC

As part of its plan to arm paramilitary troops, including those operating in Naxal-hit areas, with high-tech weapons, government has sanctioned procurements of armoured and bullet proof vehicles besides arms valuing nearly Rs 300 crore.
The Union Home Ministry in the last one month has sanctioned 119 TATA Light Armoured Troop Carriers (LATC) worth Rs 49.90 crore and 98 bullet proof Mahindra Rakshaks and three LATCs at a cost of Rs 37.97 crore, Home Minister P Chidambaram told reporters today.
The ministry has also approved procurement of night vision devices for rifles at a cost of Rs 184.80 crore, besides 146 automatic grenade launchers and 47,030 grenades are also been bought from a Russian firm Rosoboron Export at a cost of Rs 22.95 crore.
Laser range finders is also being procured from Fotono, a Slovenian firm at a cost of Rs 1.33 crore. In all, procurements amounting to Rs 296.95 crore has been approved by the ministry, Chidambaram said

The NSG has recently placed an order of over 800 state-of-the-art SIG rifles, something which certain other forces are also looking at. Last month, the MHA sanctioned procurement of 378 automatic grenade launchers and related ammunition at a total cost of Rs 37.83 crore.
It also sanctioned procurement of 34,377 carbines for the BSF at a cost of Rs 137.51 crore. The CISF, which guards airports, nuclear plants and other sensitive installations, already uses Glock pistols and will also procure 1,000 more such weapons at a cost of Rs 2.5 crore, the source said.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 01 Jun 2010 02:47

Indian Army Wants Amphibious Assault Rifles

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 03 Jun 2010 15:30

the indian army brass's image is touching its nadir yet...
http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/general- ... php?u=1502

update. the above report may not be true in its entirety.

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/army-inq ... php?u=1725

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 03 Jun 2010 15:35

The good part is that Gen. Singh has taken hard and decisive action on the complain of the Col.'s wife.

I actually feel a tad sad. nanda was one of few officers who moved on to be E in C after being the DGBR. Most either make it to DGBR or the E in C but not both. Not to say that one appointment is superior or inferior, but just that it made hie resume look good, and now this.

In jest, I recall a line I read some where. "You should know you've had too much if the fat woman next to you suddenly starts to look attractive."

(Mods please delete this last bit, if its sexist, insensitive or offensive)

============================================================================================
Added Later:

I might've spoken too early.

There are some reports that he has been forced to resign, but the Army has denied this. Sources say the allegations against Lt Gen AK Nanda, Engineer-in-Chief, are being investigated.

The wife of Nanda's technical secretary has complained that he molested her during a visit to Israel last month. Nanda and his team had gone to Israel along with their families on an official trip. The technical officer holds the rank of a Colonel.

Nanda, 59, is the senior-most Army officer to face such charges. He is one of eight Principal Staff Officers to the Chief of Army Staff, General VK Singh, and as such, a key advisor.

Army sources say while an inquiry is on, prima facie major loopholes have been found in the allegations and there is suspicion against officers within the Engineering Directorate.

Some officers, the sources say, stand to benefit if Nanda goes out now.

Now are we reduced to this.... Or may be I should just wait and watch......

ajit_tr · Post by **ajit_tr** » 03 Jun 2010 15:36

duplicate..already posted...

ajit_tr · Post by **ajit_tr** » 03 Jun 2010 15:41

duplicate...already posted....

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Jun 2010 15:58

ajit, what's the point of posting month old news that has already been posted ? kindly delete.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 03 Jun 2010 22:37

Army plans to use nanotech to monitor terrorists

NEW DELHI: Army plans to induct new-age gadgets such as micro audio bugs and video devices to keep a watch on terrorist hideouts and their meeting places and activities, apparently taking a leaf out of James Bond flicks.

"Possible nanotechnology applications are micro-audio bugs and video recording devices with high capacity data storage to plant at likely meeting places of terrorists, over ground agents and sympathisers," army said on the possible uses of nanotechnology products in the 'Technology Perspective and Capability Roadmap' for the defence ministry.

Nanotechnology is an expected future manufacturing technology that will make most products lighter, stronger, cleaner, less expensive and smaller in size.

"We are planning to use these micro devices, which would be too small to be detected, for keeping a watch on movement and activities of terrorists", Army officials said here.

"Nano-size air and ground sensors can also be placed in specific areas and activate them when we want to monitor the activities there," they said.

The Army also envisages use of micro-sized energy devices which can power unattended sensors and devices in remote areas or places which require extremely light weight power sources like light-weight man portable radars, missiles, UAVs and other systems.

Better late then Never!!! Don't understand the need for publicity though??

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 04 Jun 2010 13:38

Governor meets Defence Minister

ITANAGAR, June 3: State Governor Gen J J Singh met Union Defence Minister A K Antony in New Delhi yesterday and discussed important security issues like early raising of Arunachal Scouts.
Expressing happiness on the recruitment rallies for Arunachal Scouts conducted in which 445 young Arunachali boys were selected for recruitment, Gen Singh pointed at the need for encouraging more Arunachali youths to join the armed forces. He also called for establishment of a Sainik School in the State.
Emphasizing on upgradation of Advance Landing Grounds (ALGs) termed as subsidiary airports, he reiterated the need for taking up Vijaynagar ALG on highest priority.

http://www.echoofarunachal.com/local-news.htm

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 Jun 2010 18:16

From Orbat:

#

Sandeep also told us that the Indian army has requested two mountain strike corps for use against China and/or Pakistan in addition to several new divisions that have been approved. He says the Prime Minister is unlikely to approve the mountain strike corps for fear of upsetting China.
#

At this point you would normally expect Editor to fly into a rant about cowardly Indian politicians, but we aren't going to do it because the Indian Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh, is an upright, honest, and humble technocrat. He deserves our respect. Rather, we will confine our rant to cowardly national security advisors and the Foreign Ministry. Time for them to understand that if India worries about China getting provoked, India is tacitly conceding its subservience to China.
#

Is this something any Indian should quietly accept, particularly when China, instead of keeping a low profile as did India after the accords of 15+ years ago, has been steadily up the ante? No. if India wants respect from China, it has to earn it by standing up for itself.
#

Nonetheless, Sandeep suspects the strike divisions will be raised, but individually put under different corps so as not to seem provocative.

Unbelievable fear of the Chinese and their reaction to what we do with our army...great "aspiring" superpower we are

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 06 Jun 2010 08:02

A tragic court martial

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 06 Jun 2010 12:39

sum wrote:From Orbat:
#

Sandeep also told us that the Indian army has requested two mountain strike corps for use against China and/or Pakistan in addition to several new divisions that have been approved. He says the Prime Minister is unlikely to approve the mountain strike corps for fear of upsetting China.
#

At this point you would normally expect Editor to fly into a rant about cowardly Indian politicians, but we aren't going to do it because the Indian Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh, is an upright, honest, and humble technocrat. He deserves our respect. Rather, we will confine our rant to cowardly national security advisors and the Foreign Ministry. Time for them to understand that if India worries about China getting provoked, India is tacitly conceding its subservience to China.
#

Is this something any Indian should quietly accept, particularly when China, instead of keeping a low profile as did India after the accords of 15+ years ago, has been steadily up the ante? No. if India wants respect from China, it has to earn it by standing up for itself.
#

Nonetheless, Sandeep suspects the strike divisions will be raised, but individually put under different corps so as not to seem provocative.
Unbelievable fear of the Chinese and their reaction to what we do with our army...great "aspiring" superpower we are

This is very strange, 2 montain divisions (35,000 men) are being raised in Arunachal itself as we speak along with ALG's, and Su-30 squadrons, artilery purchases and talks are on for two more mountain divisions. Where is the question of provoking China or fearing it arise from.

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Jun 2010 13:01

This is very strange, 2 montain divisions (35,000 men) are being raised in Arunachal itself as we speak along with ALG's, and Su-30 squadrons, artilery purchases and talks are on for two more mountain divisions. Where is the question of provoking China or fearing it arise from.

Thats what im confused about. Im sure Sandeep Unninathan means 2 extra mountain strike corps other than the ones being raised now (orbat mentions these new requests as "other than the ones being currently raised").

Why does Sandeep then feel that PMO will reject the new request when it has already given the go-ahead for so many things in the NE border?? ( i assume he is very well connected with the top echolon of the MoD/services and knows the pulse of the place)

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Jun 2010 13:21

Macchil killings point to malaise in military

SRINAGAR: Four weeks after three north Kashmir residents disappeared from their homes, the Army has begun an internal investigation into allegations that the men were murdered by a rogue military unit which passed them off as jihadists killed while infiltrating the Line of Control.

The internal investigation, the Jammu and Kashmir government hopes, will lead to the prosecution of two mid-ranking military officers who, a police investigation has suggested, were linked to the murder of Nadihal-area villagers Shahzad Khan, Riyaz Ahmad Lone and Mohammad Shafi Lone.

Lead investigator Brigadier G.S. Sangha does not, however, have a mandate to examine whether the north Kashmir-based 53 Infantry Brigade failed to adequately supervise the Macchil-based 4 Rajput Regiment, its commanding officer Colonel D.K. Pathania and his immediate subordinate Major Bhupinder Singh.

Nor is he charged with investigating why the Srinagar-based XV Corps carried out no diligence before releasing Rs.6,00,000 the 4 Rajput said was due to informants for the April 30, 2010 shootout — and, critically, why no internal investigations were launched when police and intelligence services in Jammu and Kashmir first reported doubts over the encounter on May 3.

The Army has so far refused to hand over Colonel Pathania and Major Singh for questioning by the police.

A bloody trail

Last month, the Jammu and Kashmir police arrested local residents Bashir Ahmad Lone, Abbas Husain Shah and Abdul Hamid Bhat on the charges of kidnapping and conspiring the murder of the three men. Lone, the police say, promised the victims Rs.2,000 a day for working with the Army to haul weapons and stores along the Line of Control. The three victims were then driven to a military outpost in Kalaroos, where they were received by Major Singh on April 29.

In a report filed at the Kalaroos Police Post the next night, the Army said it had shot three terrorists in an intense engagement along the Line of Control, “unmindful of the volley of bullets.”

The local police, however, refused to file a First Information Report until the 4 Rajput produced the bodies of the three dead. Their relatives, who reported that the three men were missing a week after they had left home, recognised the victims from the photographs published in local newspapers. The police arrested the three local conspirators on May 27 and exhumed the bodies the next day.

Forensic investigators found no evidence to support the proposition that a fire-fight had taken place: the three victims had all been shot through the head at point blank range.

Shah, a former jihadist who was recruited to the 161 Territorial Army Battalion, is believed to have told the police that Major Singh paid each of the conspirators Rs. 50,000 for helping to kidnap the victims.

Police sources told The Hindu that Colonel Pathania kept Rs. 2,00,000 of the source-payment funds authorised by XV corps. Major Singh is thought to have kept Rs.1,50,000.

The 4 Rajput claimed to have recovered Kalashnikov assault rifles, three other assault rifles, 230 rounds of ammunition and grenades from the killed men. The police believe that they were likely part of a cache recovered by troops along the Line of Control in 2009.

Military sources say the killings were likely driven by intense pressure to secure operational success — a prerequisite for promotions in the Army's intensely competitive hierarchy. The 4 Rajput had registered little counter-infiltration success, compared with other units in the 53 Brigade and adjoining 104 Brigade's areas of operations. The police are now investigating the possibility that the 4 Rajput might have staged an earlier shootout that took place in August 2009 in the Sonapindi pass.

Key to the malaise, the Jammu and Kashmir government believes, is the Army's failure to act against rogue elements.

In 2006, a Jammu and Kashmir police internal investigation threw up evidence that security forces at Ganderbal had eliminated several south Kashmir residents, claiming that they were unidentified jihadists. The former Ganderbal Superintendent, Hans Raj Parihar, and Deputy Superintendent of Police Bahadur Ram are now being tried for their alleged role in the murders.

No criminal action has yet been taken, though, against officers of the 5 Rashtriya Rifles, the 13 Rashtriya Rifles and the 24 Rashtriya Rifles who filed false First Information Reports to make it appear that the victims had been killed in legitimate counter-insurgency operations.

Four porters hired by the Army — all Hindus — were eliminated in a similar series of staged killings carried out by officers of the 18 Rashtriya Rifles in 2004. The Army initiated internal proceedings against the officers, but did not allow their prosecution in a civilian court.

Sad read since Praveen Swami is a well informed guy on J&K and seems to have most facts right ( in this particular article)

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Jun 2010 13:23

sum wrote:Thats what im confused about. Im sure Sandeep Unninathan means 2 extra mountain strike corps other than the ones being raised now (orbat mentions these new requests as "other than the ones being currently raised").

Why does Sandeep then feel that PMO will reject the new request when it has already given the go-ahead for so many things in the NE border?? ( i assume he is very well connected with the top echolon of the MoD/services and knows the pulse of the place)

Sirji,

It is all maya onlee. IA already has two mountain divisions in NE plus two are to be raised for Northern Command. Plus the others that are in pipeline. So, forcewise, we're well on our way to acheive respectable numbers.

But the issue is with raising them under a Mountain Strike Coprs - the word Strike itself means something dangerous and hostile,no? It seems effort is being made not to rattle the H&D of the Lizard...otherwise, if IA places the two MD planned for Northern Command under 14 Corps+adds a armored battle group+couple of LCH Squadrons, will that be any lesser than a Strike Corps?

wig · Post by **wig** » 09 Jun 2010 05:49

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100608/nation.htm#3
Three senior military doctors, including an Air Commodore, could face a court martial over what the Armed Forces Tribunal has found to be “callous manner, inhuman approach and failure of performance of duty” while handling the case of a jawan who had suffered 100 per cent disability in the line of duty. In a scathing order, the tribunal has imposed a fine of Rs 1 lakh on the doctors and ordered disciplinary action against them.

Havildar Moharsingh of Rajasthan had received multiple injuries on head and other parts of the body while travelling in an Army truck during Operation Falcon near Tawang in February 2002. After a six-month hospital stay in Pune, Command Hospital, Lucknow, suggested that he be invalided out.

Moharsingh went for an appeal medical board (AMB), which described the percentage of his disability as nil and held that the disability suffered by him was not attributable to or aggravated by military service. Thereafter, he sought judicial redressal to his grievances.

The tribunal summoned the petitioner and looking at his pathetic condition wherein he was brought in on a stretcher, it ordered the Commandant of the Military Hospital, Jaipur, to medically examine him.

The medical board held last month assessed his disability as 100 per cent and attributed it to military service. The medical expert opined that Moharsingh was suffering from a progressive, degenerative neurological disorder with no specific treatment.

Observing that the report of the AMB, comprising Air Commodore DP Joshi, Col SB Singh and Lt Col Shobana Das, was not only contrary to that of two other boards, but also did not mention the reasons for assessing disability as nil, the Tribunal held that AMB was grossly incorrect and deserved to be deprecated.

“We direct that these three officers be subjected to disciplinary action under the Army Act. It is expected that necessary action against them shall be taken at the earliest and the result thereof be intimated to the Tribunal,” the Bench ordered while imposing costs of Rs 1 lakh to be paid to the petitioner by the government to be recovered from the salaries of the AMB members.

The incident reflects inhuman treatment that had crossed all boundaries of humanity by superior Armed Forces medical officers, whose actions resulted into injustice and restrained the authorities to grant disability pension to the petitioner, the tribunal observed.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 Jun 2010 10:10

Capt Saurabh Kalia's torture by Pak army still not 'war crime'

Dont really know where it belongs so m posting in here.

Makes ones blood boil.

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 09 Jun 2010 10:28

Army and navy plan to set up a marine brigade

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... igade.html

Shiv Aroor
Courtesy: Mail Today/ india today
The navy and army have sent a proposal to the government seeking permission to transport a 5,000-strong armed infantry and special forces troops, tanks and weapons - an independent brigade group (IBG) - on foreign shores for active operations. This capability has both been controversial and strategically provocative.

It has been learnt that after years of consultations, the army and navy have finally started seeing eye to eye on the modalities required to incrementally build up the capability to deliver a full brigade- strength contingent of troops - including two special forces units - with arms, ammunition, vehicles and weapons outside the Indian mainland.

"The need to move forces is in keeping with the expanded security focus on India's island territories and the ability to deliver forces expeditiously for humanitarian relief operations," navy spokesperson Commander PVS Satish said.

While the financial implications of such a capability are being worked out, they will involve integrated expenditure on larger amphibious assault vessels, equipment and joint training.

The army has an IBG, the 340 Independent Infantry Brigade under Jodhpur- based 12 Corps, for amphibious assault operations.

It re-raised the 91 Infantry Brigade early last year for amphibious warfare.

But the navy currently only has the capacity to transport a little less than two battalions on expeditionary missions. The move now is to crank up that capacity more than twice over for a full IBG. Former navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash said it was absolutely essential that the navy built up the capacity to transport a brigade- sized group across the seas. "We have 1,200 island territories. We have energy investments worth thousands of crores far from our shores. We have huge diaspora in the Middle East. If there was a Kargil-like situation on any of our island territories, we would need adequate boots on the ground for combat. There are also other liabilities such as piracy and potential hostage situations.

Being able to transport a couple of battalions isn't nearly enough," he said.

Sources said the process to obtain approval from the government began under the previous navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta, currently India's high commissioner to New Zealand.

The case is said to have been taken up afresh in February this year by the chiefs of staff committee for consideration by the defence minister.

While formal approval is yet to come, the government has indicated it is in principle inclined to approve the proposal.

The capability received a cursory mention in an official technology roadmap document published by the defence ministry last month.

Vice Admiral (retd) Madanjit Singh, navy's former western commander, said: "It is a major capability that the navy is looking at and will necessarily be a joint effort in consultation with the army. Such a capability is useful for operations, humanitarian relief and rescue operations." The Centre and South Block have always been wary about discussing expeditionary capabilities, considering the implications of such operations and India's carefully nurtured image of a country with no belligerent ambitions.

While the establishment has always guised amphibious capabilities as an imperative for more efficient humanitarian relief operations, there have been several recent signs that assault and combat are very much part of the plan.

On April 14, a detachment of Indian soldiers conducted a landmark joint amphibious assault exercise with US Marines off the coast of San Diego on board the US Navy's landing vessel, USS New Orleans . In February last year - five months after the South Block formalised India's first joint amphibious warfare doctrine - the three forces conducted the biggest joint landing operation of troops (a battalion of the 91 Infantry Brigade re-raised in 2009 as an amphibious brigade) on Gujarat's Madhavpur beach after departing the navy base at Karwar, south of Goa.

Leaving little to the imagination, the South Block had announced then that the exercise proved that the forces could conduct "swift and intense conflict during military operations". Apart from being in the market for four- six more large amphibious landing ships to augment the American-built INS Jalashwa inducted almost three years ago, there are other items on order that indicate the desired amphibious assault readiness.

The most recent was the army's expression of interest in procuring up to 4,000 amphibious assault rifles for the infantry.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Jun 2010 10:58

sathyaC wrote:
<SNIP>

The army has an IBG, the 340 Independent Infantry Brigade under Jodhpur- based 12 Corps, for amphibious assault operations.

It re-raised the 91 Infantry Brigade early last year for amphibious warfare.

<SNIP>

The numbers are not quite correct - 340(I) Infantry Brigade was raised as an Amphibious Assault Brigade - but for reasons best known to IA, it was converted to a Mechanized Brigade. This is how it remains as today - as Independent Mechanized Brigade - part of 12 Corps and based in Central Rajasthan

91 Infantry Brigade is part of 54 Infantry Division - it was converted and not re-raised. This is the only dedicated Amphibious Assault Brigade with HQ based in Trivandrum.

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 09 Jun 2010 11:50

The IBG was taken to mean Integrated Battle Group, since when has it been rechristened as Independent Brigade Group? AFAIK, the IBG was assumed by most to be a somewhat Division sized force (Eight in total), raised to deliver multiple cuts inside Pakistan. Here in the above article he has taken the IBG and rechristened it as Independent Brigade Group, If we take IBG to be Independent Brigades, then IA has plenty to begin with, and the whole discussion of creating IBGs would become moot!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Jun 2010 12:17

I guess the author has taken liberty with IBG - or it may well have been used as such in interactions with him. IBG, in reference to Cold Start, are Division sized forces.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 Jun 2010 12:17

Few years ago American Defence Personals had visited India(during visit of Georg W Bush in india after he become president).The were taken to Siachen in morning temp was around -15c and in afternoon were taken to Thar dessert. The American Defence Personnal were admitted in Hospital. They feal ill due to such temperature variation. But indian Officers Escorting were perfectly well.American Defence Personal commented that "Indian Army has wire range of tarren to Defend in this world.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jun 2010 00:36

Its SMS speak where the writer comes up with any old acronym not realising that things mean different for different people.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 10 Jun 2010 03:12

Picklu wrote: Regarding bash the army comment, I being the mango tax payer have every right to criticize them if they are not up to my satisfaction because I am the sole reason of existence for them. After all they use the same logic while criticizing DRDO, so it must be right, isn't it?

Oh Absolutely. Subject to the forum rules and the moderators opinion feel free to say what you like. There is a fundamental difference in the quality/relevance of the comments in question though. One is from a customer to mnfrs. about equipment both of them are familiar with. Your comment comes from a position of ignorance of the institution in question and as such has, IMO of course, no value as criticism of the organisation. I pointed out as much. If someone understands the AI, OFB or BSNL's position they are free to call you on your comments on such. I didn't think this caution about speaking outside an area of expertise was such a radical idea.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 10 Jun 2010 03:16

Mrinal wrote: This is exactly the hyperbole, which leads to an "I am superior than thou" attitude which is the bane of the user-developer relationship, where the former dictates to the latter driven by a perception of superiority.

For your attention, do you think that Saraswat - a man who gave up the option of a lucrative career abroad despite offers of the like, or his mentor Kalam, who led the life of an ascetic, with a single minded goal to catapult India's weapons development into the league of advanced nations, are any less motivated or patriotic or selfless that they have to be categorized and dismissed as "picking up a briefcase/laptop" and heading to work! Clearly, you imply there are no sacrifices made by the civilian side of the establishment, to contribute to national development. It is not a job, it is a calling, for many. Many of the younger breed have caught this infection, and continue to work on programs despite being called incompetent, worthless in the media every single day! And per serving rules, they are not even permitted to speak out lest they offend their valued customer/s.

And then out comes the stereotype of "enemy fire/avalanches" et al. For the record, many folks who are currently facing these tribulations (and they are as such, no mistake) in the armed forces, are also there because of employment considerations.

So both sides have their employment/dedicated souls!

So kindly, let us leave these stereotypes out.

I'm not going to rehash the arguments on specific arms. If you know someone who has to use that piece of equipment and their opinion of it then you know where I'm coming from. Either ways opinions here are too entrenched to change. I have no intention of impugning the motives or patriotism of the men and women working in the Indian defence industry. The sacrifices, tribulations and dangers of the Service life though are on a plane of their own. I'll take their assessments on the weapons that they'll take to war any and every day over that of anyone else.. It is an exceptionalism that the Forces fully deserve.

As for the user dictating the terms, I don't know what industry you work in but in my experience this is true, and correctly so, for pretty much every field. Around where I work, when the customer says jump we say "how high?". The customers do dictate terms and if we don't comply they find other manufacturers. Nor for that matter do most companies speak out adversely against their customers. At least no company that wants to retain customers.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Jun 2010 08:28

^^^ that is the crux of the problem. as long as the forces consider themselves to be 'customers' and the asian equivalent of the armed forces of burundi, we will continue to have this problem. why is it so difficult to fathom that the forces have as much responsibility to get indigenous items in service as DRDO does ? till the attitude evolves from that of a customer to that of a partner, we will see certain arms of the forces continue to behave like the force of some 2-bit country.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 10 Jun 2010 09:20

Rahul M wrote:^^^ that is the crux of the problem. as long as the forces consider themselves to be 'customers' and the asian equivalent of the armed forces of burundi, we will continue to have this problem. why is it so difficult to fathom that the forces have as much responsibility to get indigenous items in service as DRDO does ? till the attitude evolves from that of a customer to that of a partner, we will see certain arms of the forces continue to behave like the force of some 2-bit country.

What's with the insults? I dare say that when their own lives if on the line everyone acts like a customer. Everyone on here seems to know three different types of chaiwalls, panwalla, whatever. I'm curious to know if anyones ever asked them about equipment that isn't inducted. In a general sense everyone sees why encouraging and nurturing an Indian arms industry is important. A young industry by definition lacks experience. Sitting back I can take the long view on why this experience needs to be built up. It isn't that easy to take the long view when you need to be flying/fighting with that piece of eqpmt. tomorrow.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 10 Jun 2010 09:44

anjan wrote:The sacrifices, tribulations and dangers of the Service life though are on a plane of their own. I'll take their assessments on the weapons that they'll take to war any and every day over that of anyone else.. It is an exceptionalism that the Forces fully deserve.

Disagree on principle. None is above the rest and those righteous claim for "exceptional-ism" is the main problem, IMO of course.

What to do, brought up on hefty dose of how deserving the "public servants" really are and why it is so important to ensure the job security in public sector for the freedom of the country!

Used to believe till '90s because the alternative was not there to compare but then liberalization came. The deep institutional knowledge of BSNL etc did not matter then and it does not matter now. Sometimes, you just have to tell it based on the reality you see - that the emperor is "nekkid"

So, nowadays, really apprehensive of the similar logic coming from anywhere - politician, army or private sector.

Army, in this particular debate at least, really has to come down from its high horse of
a. being customers
b. accepting substandard equipment and risking life and limb thereby.
They have equal responsibility to avoid both and no, importing foreign arms is not the right solution whatever their assessment is.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 11 Jun 2010 01:25

Slow Going As India Revamps Army

........................
The service has issued numerous requests for information (RFI) and proposals as it moves to increase its operational capabilities. The list of needs is long. Key items include: artillery, missiles, rocket launchers, helicopters and ground strike aircraft, radar, night-vision equipment, future force gear and apparel, and network-centric and battle-management systems.
Progress is being made, however slowly. The first step toward waging network-centric warfare at the tactical level will be through Project Sakthi, which establishes an artillery combat command-and-control system to integrate weapon operations. The signal corps, the lead agency and center for information and cyber-security in the military and at the national level, directs the project. The corps is working to make the army a network-enabled force by 2012 and a network-centric one by 2017. “This will involve consolidation of all networks to provide the army with an optimal, secure and robust infrastructure to meet operational and peacetime requirements, one that withstands technical and physical degradation,” an army spokesman says.
The army’s plans in this area also involve the “Network for Spectrum” project, which is being implemented by the government’s telecommunications department in exchange for spectrum being released from the defense quota. The army is installing a fiber-optic cable network to meet its bandwidth needs. When complete, the service will vacate existing spectrum in use by the military, freeing it for civilian applications. Plans to upgrade the cyber-security of networks are also under consideration.
Meanwhile, ITT Corp. expects its night-vision devices to attract interest from the army aviation corps, which issued an RFI for night-vision goggles for helicopter pilots among others. Should the project be approved, ITT will partner with government-owned Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL) in producing the devices. ITT will provide select components and BEL will be responsible for power optics, says David Melcher, president of ITT Defense and Information Solutions.
ITT is confident in the performance of the critical image-intensifier tube in the night-vision goggles, which it says is rugged, combat-proven and a good match for fixed- and rotary-wing aviators as well as ground forces. The company says its enhanced night-vision goggles are the first to provide fusion (via optical overlay) of image-intensified and infrared imagery.

BEL has asked ITT for 33,000 of the tubes. ITT for its part has applied for a Technical Assistance Agreement from the U.S Defense Department in order to produce the technology abroad. “We’re bound by what we can transfer by [U.S. government] International Traffic in Arms Regulations,” says Melcher. “Night-vision technology is protected, which is why we are looking at other ways [of using it overseas].”

As the world’s largest provider of military VHF radios and advanced tactical communication systems, ITT is also promoting Spearnet, which offers simultaneous voice, data and situational awareness in a low-cost multirole radio. Having been successfully used in Iraq and Afghanistan, Melcher says the product will be valuable to Indian soldiers.

A fast-track program for procurement of $300 million worth of weapons and equipment for special forces is under way. Under the program, 10,000 troops will receive new gear in the next 15 months. The army envisions implementing a multibillion-dollar modernization program called Futuristic Infantry Soldier (F-Insas), to broaden the capabilities of infantry by making them multimission warfighters.
Under the program, the army will buy antitank guided missile launchers with thermal-imaging sights, armored vehicles, rifles, battle-surveillance radars, ground sensors, secured communication systems, precision-guided ammunition, laser rangefinders that provide ballistic data, light clothing and bullet-resistant jackets.
While critics are skeptical that the 2011 date for F-Insas prototype trials will be met, the army’s plans call for equipping the entire infantry—500,000 troops—with the gear by 2020.

General Dynamics U.K., for one, is interested in bidding on the battle-management system, a technology the company specializes in. General Dynamics delivered Bowman, the British Army’s battle-management system, as well as similar programs to the Netherlands and Romania. “We have upgraded more than 13,000 vehicles—the largest number of any company—including T72 tanks and BMP infantry fighting vehicles, both of which the Indian army uses,” says spokesman Mark Douglas.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 11 Jun 2010 17:14

Slow Going As India Revamps Army

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 11 Jun 2010 21:04

Long time lurker and first time poster. airframe designer by profession. I have an interest in a few things, one of them being weightlifting.

A came across an article written by a Physical instructor from US Military Academy that dwells on the nature of physical training imparted to a soldier compared with the physical requirements of battle and the numerial benchmarks imposed on him by the Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT).
the article is 7 pages long and can be found here - http://startingstrength.com/articles/army_weak_long.pdf

The argument that he makes is that being a 200lb soldier who can deadlift 500 lb and squat 400lb is more useful than a 140lb soldier whose weightlifting numbers are 300lb and 250lb (lets say). A second point is that the focus on moderate intensity cardio (running +drill) is unnecessary and useless.

To see if his arguments are also applicable to the Indian army, Can members here detail the physical requirements placed on them during combat/missions in terms of endurance requirements, strength requirements what kind of loads a typical soldier normally carries. Is this guy just blowing hot air?

(If this is the wrong thread, apologies. I would appreciate it if I am directed to the right one)

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 11 Jun 2010 21:32

^^
As far as IA is concerned, cardio and endurance training is a very important aspect of physical training. As per the officers who had undergone commando course in Belgaum (which every Infantry officer is required to undergo), the daily routine consists of nearly 25km run with 30kg load aside from other usual drills of climbing, obstacle course etc (which goes on except for the time they are alloted to eat and sleep). I tell this to stress on the importance which the IA gives to endurance training. In fact, most of the physical training in IA is endurance building oriented. But this may well have to do with the terrain in which IA is required to operate. IA has to fight in both the mountain terrain and dense jungle. This is not the case with other armies so their need for endurance training may differ from that of IA.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 11 Jun 2010 21:40

^^^Its a bit of gas and shows the buffed up jock mentality of the author. Unfortunately unlike the peachy bottomed US Army which rides to war on their hawai chariots and has Booger King/McDonalds with XBox360 in their base for recreation, most of us poor SDRE nations have to walk to war and rely on lower amounts of supplies. Being able to deadlift 500 lbs means jack in battle where endurance is strength and raw strength doesn't mean much. A buffed up 220 lb amreeki soldier is like a gas guzzling Hummer - expensive to operate and maintain and for the same amount of fuel it has really low range of effectiveness. If you look at the SF guys from most countries you will see they are typically wiry, nimble individuals not Arnie Kamandu look-alikes. There is a reason for that.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jun 2010 21:51

I was awaiting until the first couple of replies came on these lines. a huge gym soldier (the bald thug in universal soldier2 comes to mind) is not mobile , prone to overheating in the tropics and doesnt have the endurance to last long in the bush. Sure feed him well, ride him to battle in a hummer and unleash him for a short fight with a hammer or "jesse ventura" type chain gun before driving him back to base and he is of use. so maybe urban SWAT is what that training regime is most useful for...or maybe riot control with a truncheon - pakis have lots of policemen with that build and a huge danda...remember the poor drug addict hauled out of a graveyard adjoining the police academy after that terror attack last yr

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 11 Jun 2010 22:47

Raja Bose wrote:^^^.... If you look at the SF guys from most countries you will see they are typically wiry, nimble individuals not Arnie Kamandu look-alikes. There is a reason for that.

Bose Saar,

Would you happen to have some documentation/links of the physical training done by IA guys/SF guys??
It would be very cool to know what physical benchmarks they aim for, say benchpressing, deadlifting etc.
Or do they use some other parameters to judge physical fitness?

~Ashish.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Jun 2010 23:08

Misraji wrote:
Bose Saar,

Would you happen to have some documentation/links of the physical training done by IA guys/SF guys??
It would be very cool to know what physical benchmarks they aim for, say benchpressing, deadlifting etc.
Or do they use some other parameters to judge physical fitness?

~Ashish.

Misraji, I think one will not find any public information on this topic. Yes, one can speak with his buddies in IA/SF, but hardly any open source information. But what I can sure tell you is that the Probation Period* for SF is sure next to hell in the way it taxes the physical and mental (more than physical) strength of the soldiers. The idea is to built endurance and stamina.

As an example, please look at photographs at this site - http://www.majorudaisingh.com/gallery/maverick.htm. These men are either from 10 PARA(SF) or Special Group - nothing beefy or mascular about them.

Another example of importance of stamina and endurance -

http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com ... d=13098760

Read this articel about Indian SF winning the Airborne Africa in 2004 (we came 2nd in 2002). Just see the kind of tasks required and compare the comments of the US Army fellow.

excerpts:

The event required a trek of 87 kms over three days with full combat load of 50 kg, all the activity being conducted under the desert sun during the day

Here the team led by Major Animish Ranade suffered a mishap at the outset when Commando Mool Singh’s parachute did not open and his emergency parachute landed him so hard that he fractured his ankle. Despite the mishap that cost the team points, it won the individual prize in the 35 kms endurance march that followed.

On June 9, Capt Krishandas’s team, scored with the individual prize for the navigation segment where the commandos have to move through 20 kms of trackless desert with just a compass, Ranade’s team stood second.

This was topped by a casualty evacuation exercise that required them to carry a 50 kg deadweight, simulating a casualty, for 10 kms.

Krishandas’ team stood first and Ranade’s second. On the last day the teams did a 17 kms speed march and Krishandas’ team again scored a first.

Hope this helps.

*Period which an officer needs to serve and pass with one of SF Battalions to qualify to become eligible for SF training. IIRC, the period is 3 months (or 6 months?)

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 11 Jun 2010 23:14

Raja Bose wrote: A buffed up 220 lb amreeki soldier is like a gas guzzling Hummer - expensive to operate and maintain and for the same amount of fuel it has really low range of effectiveness.

One older gora was lamenting that it takes $1 million to put a pair of boots in the forward areas/foreign and it is costing a lot for the govt to maintain them.
If 200k troops are in various bases then we are looking at $200B yearly.

Can somebody calculate how many troops are in the battle zones

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 11 Jun 2010 23:40

rohitvats wrote:....

Hope this helps.
The event required a trek of 87 kms over three days with full combat load of 50 kg, all the activity being conducted under the desert sun during the day

Helps? Makes me hang my head in shame for sure....

I have been training for six months and I can neither run for more than 3 miles or
or walk a mile with 50lbs, let alone 50Kgs.

I was hoping that somebody would have their training regimen. Hopefully
would be able to replicate an ounce of their strength.

Though. Thanks for info, Rohit saar. Would try to stay away from these deceptively
lean mean guys ....

~Ashish