Bharat Rakshak

Stan saar: If I am not mistaken DMK actually sided with BJP in 1998.

BJP is a distraction and let us leave it out for focus.

Even in the current TN Assembly, AIADMK+INC+PMK can form the government by putting DMK in the dock. Why do you say that INC is not a master here? INC though has less vote share, it negotiated substantial LS seats and DMK was willing to give more as INC played an either-or- game.

Muppalla wrote: Even in the current TN Assembly, AIADMK+INC+PMK can form the government by putting DMK in the dock. Why do you say that INC is not a master here?

There was this fear during the election time, no? After the results came in, we saw everyone settle into the standard dance routine, na?! The problem is this: sleeping with Amma and Ramadoss is like keeping a gun and a can of kerosene next to you when you go to sleep, lack of a better simile. Ramadoss is the number 1 color-changer in TN and he has a "venerability" for it. Historically, DMK-INC has been a stable marriage except for the emergency fights with IG. In fact, IG did a favor for MK and dismissed MGR, but he came back with a vengeance in the popular mandate. There is enough institutional memory, why will INC suddenly run off to chameleons and screw the game unless they have so much to really really gain?

INC though has less vote share, it negotiated substantial LS seats and DMK was willing to give more as INC played an either-or- game.

It is tit for tat, the game is this: INC gets more seats for LS elections than its due share, but DMK gets more ministers and prime portfolios where they can milk cash, like communications, health, etc. Otoh, INC gets zero respectability in running the state and cant whine much. Now tell me who is the winner and who is the loser in this deal.

Stan_Savljevic wrote: There was this fear during the election time, no? After the results came in, we saw everyone settle into the standard dance routine, na?! The problem is this: sleeping with Amma and Ramadoss is like keeping a gun and a can of kerosene next to you when you go to sleep, lack of a better simile. Ramadoss is the number 1 color-changer in TN and he has a "venerability" for it. Historically, DMK-INC has been a stable marriage except for the emergency fights with IG. In fact, IG did a favor for MK and dismissed MGR, but he came back with a vengeance in the popular mandate. There is enough institutional memory, why will INC suddenly run off to chameleons and screw the game unless they have so much to really really gain?

It is alway true after elections. One thing that you may not have observed the pattern is INC is on an agressive expantion. I am not a TN expert so please throw in your expertise. Come next assembly elections - my take is if the Central Government can still run without DMK (which is possible) then it will ask for a lot more seats than it has now. DMK will be in double mind. It either has to lose the state or succumb. Watch all the sons, daughters and MK along with marans and how they succumb/play to INC mechanisms. INC will threaten to go with PMK+MDMK+AIADMK+whatever. Even that government it will not lose much strategically. The loser is DMK and hence I am saying that by-force DMK is married to INC.

It is tit for tat, the game is this: INC gets more seats for LS elections than its due share, but DMK gets more ministers and prime portfolios where they can milk cash, like communications, health, etc. Otoh, INC gets zero respectability in running the state and cant whine much. Now tell me who is the winner and who is the loser in this deal.

It has no respectability and hence nothing to lose to unleash anything. INC's respectability is a joke as far as my bias is concerned. AP had it nice going until 2004. From 2004 it is now way too complicated with Jagans and multiple caste parties.

INC has not been the master in the last few decades. Once MuKa fades, you never know what is going to happen. I have made one prediction several times, but now is not the right time to bring it in again here - as it is totally irrelevant. If Kannimozhi gets the nod, it will be be JJ vs Kannimozhi. People who have read Ponniyin Selvan will know it will be like Kundavai vs Nandini

By focusing on the political parties we are making it look like it is purely political machinations. Nothing wrong with discussing the politics.

Muppalla wrote: One thing that you may not have observed the pattern is INC is on an agressive expantion.

I dont know, dont see much from what I read. Too much noise in the system to make any good observations. But more so, TN is a weirdo state with its own dynamics that needless to say, INC or BJP has no bloody idea of. It is a travesty when three of the major national parties (INC, BJP, commies) are utterly clueless about what runs TN. Even a baby will tell where the pulse lies: roti, kapda, makaan, self-respect, tamil, not in that order of priority.

INC will threaten to go with PMK+MDMK+AIADMK+whatever.

If I were in DMK, I will say, " , go ahead." When MK gets enquired by his maker about what engg degree MK thinks he has, we will see a new equilibrium in the state. But I cant see it to be very far off from what exists now, as the progenies run the state now, and the senile man is a rudder-less man. If JJ seeks an early appt with her maker, which is more imminent than that of the senile man, it is really a O.Henry-type farce. In any case,

INC has no respectability and hence nothing to lose to unleash anything.

True, neither does DMK, ADMK, PMK or DMDK. So it is a free market full of cheats and bozos. And I dont expect INC to grow a brain and a pair of ba*** in 1 1/2 years. The problem is this: people think INC and Sonia mata are all powerful people. Much of the victories have been serendepity rather than active chankian moves, but thats just what I think.

Ramadoss is the number 1 color-changer in TN and he has a "venerability" for it.

This is a very important. In JHK -JMM, JVM and AJSU are all tribal parties and they are exactly same. Similarly TRS is also same. The parties that represent a very small sub-regional-identities (percieved ? ) are all same. There is no plan or strategy to improve the state either economically of make the state an important one politically. What we are seeing is the national parties instead of using rough-shod power and pass some election reforms to make these entities as useless they are succumbing and manipulating the state boundaries. If there is a simple rule of re-run in case of the candidate getting less than 50% polled all these parties are mostly kaput. ( offcource RM thorises with a preferential voting system that I disagree )

SwamyG garu,

Requests for splits are definitely political. The backwardness and other factors are platforms being used. We can discuss the strategic and other issues in this thread once the political issues are baselined. This thread is not dying any time soon. Regarding economic issues and backwardness, if you follow all the charts and district wise data that both Telangana and other parts presented here by various members, it is clear that is not that straight even if you take biases into consideration.

Stan_Savljevic wrote: If I were in DMK, I will say, " , go ahead." When MK gets enquired by his maker about what engg degree MK thinks he has, we will see a new equilibrium in the state. But I cant see it to be very far off from what exists now, as the progenies run the state now, and the senile man is a rudder-less man. If JJ seeks an early appt with her maker, which is more imminent than that of the senile man, it is really a O.Henry-type farce. In any case,

This is when I brought my Bihar's theory. When you have multiple players/parties and the national party like INC has no say in the state like that happened in Bihar is when you will have all sorts of scenarios. I am neither remotely wishing that TN should split nor any bad. All I am trying to say is the parties like PMK or MDMK in TN, TRS or PRP in AP and multiple-JDs and JHKs in Bihar are same. The national parties neither have a vision nor national strategy and they also do weird things.

True, neither does DMK, ADMK, PMK or DMDK. So it is a free market full of cheats and bozos. And I dont expect INC to grow a brain and a pair of ba*** in 1 1/2 years. The problem is this: people think INC and Sonia mata are all powerful people. Much of the victories have been serendepity rather than active chankian moves, but thats just what I think.

If we take all politcal parties are just junk then yes they are junk but they do junkie things that affects national and other issues.

You have already made your point right? No need to press further lest you be tarred a spilltist.

That simulation is very revealing. It clearly shows what is being said. Every one is miniscule in personal power but collectively they can cleave any thing asunder.

"Mondivadu Raju kante balavantudu!" Stubborn is more powerful than the King. Because the King has more to lose.

Muppalla wrote: When you have multiple players/parties and the national party like INC has no say in the state like that happened in Bihar is when you will have all sorts of scenarios.

Fact is, INC is out of the picture in TN out of its own stupidities. For that, one has to understand TN politics pre- and post-Madras province of 53. INC in those days was dominated by brahmins. Periyar pushed for affirmative actions, but felt a huge stumbling block. In the sake of going out and trying to empower the non-brahmins, he went after root causes and blamed the brahmins, and ergo, hindus, for all ills. The JP movement just wanted empowerment, but were staunch Hindus. But due to electoral machinations and various other causes, Periyar came back from prison after serving a 2 yr term for asking the Brits to leave and started leading the JP. That was when his extremist streak came through rather vociferously. His maverick acts of Dravida-stan did nt help create new friends. In fact, folks such as Tanguturi Prakasam moved away and got back on talking terms with Rajaji, with whom Prakasam had a major fight over linguistic issues.

In the meanwhile, Rajaji scored another self-goal for the brahmins and forced compulsory Hindi for school children. That gave rise to Periyar and his aggressive brand of self-respect really gaining popularity with the college-folk. Much of the propaganda came from Tam orators and litterateurs such as EVK Sampath (Periyar's nephew), Annadurai, Mu Ka, SS Rajendran, MGR, etc. With a prominent rise of the 1953 movement, Periyar really went senile and started doing all sortsa vague stuff. One such vague act was marrying Maniyammai, 50 years his junior. Smelling blood, CNA who wanted power, split off citing this as an excuse. Thus came DMK. DK just supported like-minded people in elections, but it itself never took part, but CNA wanted to protest constitutionally rather than idiotically like DK.

But for that, DMK had to first give up asking for a Tamil naadu as a separate country. In response to the war with china, Nehru put a constitutional amendment which made asking for secession a crime. And DMK quickly sensing blood, formalized their constitution and dropped the demand. In 1962 elections, DMK whipped the backside of some established INC folk, but that itself was just a showpiece achievement. DMK would nt have gained widespread popularity had it not been for the half-baked idea of Nehru to persist with the 1965 cutoff date of Hindi as the national language. First, came protests, then came rallying, and in response to violence in Bihar and UP came violence in TN considerably, and in small measure all over the South. Riding the popularity wave and self-respect in akshun, people voted with their feet in 1967 and drove out INC from the history of TN forever.

Now, if you want to undo a cataclysmic mistake, you have to go back and redo the acts in a way that ought to be done. For that, the key bridge to be crossed is to be more Tamil than the Tamil litterateur non-pareil. Who is tall enough in TN today to beat Mu Ka in the Tamil game? None. So one has to bide his/her time, and embrace the right people and the right policies. INC has not shown enough maturity for this. How can all the three major parties that fight in every state except Nagaland in a relevant capacity fail to see the simple logic, amuses TN folk, and me too.

You have already made your point right? No need to press further lest you be tarred a spilltist.

It is not like folks are super-sensitive about a split TN, certainly not me. A few politicians are, for their own vested interest. Most folks in TN seem to be in a dont care state. KMP (Kongunaadu Munnetra Peravai) asked for a separate Kongunaadu around the last election time, and except for a cursory glance, most did nt even bother with it. It still exists.

Muppalla gaaru: I will keep reading and learning.

Political experiments to counter political experiments.

- Lagadapati fasting was to show people fasting protests are not genuine

After that nobody believes in fasting and fastings became less effective.

- Attacks on Reliance stores/Petrol bunks for fake analysis of YSR death.

Now leaders are urging people not to raise up when some leaders ask them to protest. Chankian.

ShyamSP wrote:Political experiments to counter political experiments.

- Lagadapati fasting was to show people fasting protests are not genuine

After that nobody believes in fasting and fastings became less effective.

- Attacks on Reliance stores/Petrol bunks for fake analysis of YSR death.

Now leaders are urging people not to raise up when some leaders ask them to protest. Chankian.

Right...... the politics in India kept on showing the world like how low one can stoop.
L showing a bit extra interest compared to other folks? Reason is L has more that 5000 crore projects going on in Hyderabad itself. any mixed decision on Hyderabad? L will become a bikari.... no buyers for L Hills and other projects.
a long time back, in a marriage occasion, this guy keep on boasting about the amount of money he spent to become an MP.{ A super power india......definitely needs such kind of politicans }
we has a suspect in mind behind the reliance faisco {People started looking that side already}This guy specially is an attention grabber.

How many more state secretaries need to be shot down?

Jaladi, I guess you didn't get what I said.

Original experiment was create a drama of fasting by KCR and raise up students to give Telengana.

- Counter experiment was to show the flimsiness of original experiment to people.

Every leader was protesting everywhere and whatever way they want during last 1 1/2 month.

- Counter experiment is to suppress and take strong action on further protests on state separation issues.


Meanwhile, discussions will go on...... Yawn...... wake me up when they split state barring your insider news

I wish the Thread name is still Redrawing State Boundaries. it is just that Telangana was the reason for this thread and hence Telangana content is more.

Here is something straight from maoist's representative. janshakthi, PUCL etc are just frontend for maoists. TWIW

Money power shows its hand

HYDERABAD: The realisation of a separate Telangana will be a long and arduous struggle, with forces representing feudal, capitalist and caste cliques opposed tooth and nail to a separate State.

These vested interests have so much clout with the Centre that they can compel it to ignore the aspiration of the people to self-rule. They have turned Telangana into an internal colony of theirs and want to maintain their grip even as they hold sway over Andhra and Rayalaseema areas.

The indications are very clear. The political JAC has appealed to the student community to leave the agitation to them, which is the first step a capitalist class takes to water down a movement.
{It is proven that a large number of folks in the students are naxals and maoists. PC showed the videos to TRS and other politicos to slowdown the march. KCR came out mellowed as he may have been blackmailed to giveup slowly}
Money bags are arriving to tone down the agitation.

Then, we have a governor who sends out signal that any law and order problem will be crushed with an iron hand.

And there is also the issue of Greater Hyderabad.

The demand for a special status for Hyderabad portends more danger than anything else since. To retain their grip on Hyderabad, these forces would resort to bloodshed. As a last weapon in the armoury, they will trigger clashes between people of the two region. I want peace squads formed in every basti and every village to guard against and resist the lumpen elements.

I am not hopeful of the Centre taking any decision on Telangana in the near future. This is because the same capitalist and feudal forces which had worked for integration of Hyderabad State into Andhra in the 1950s, are at work even now. There is also a similar exploitative class in Telagnana which had hobnobbed with their counterparts in Andhra and Rayalaseema to provide logistic support to ensure perpetuation of exploitation.

The fears of a Telangana State becoming another Chhattisgarh or Jharkhand are baseless. In fact, it would be the other way round. If the Centre delays formation of a separate State, Telangana would witness a fierce people’s movement against continuing exploitation.
{WoW - If by some means if someone falls for it and creates Telangna, they their brothers can have field days there}

If the movement is at its peak in Chhattisgarh, it is because the State is located in the heart of India where the weaker sections have been exploited for ages. A similar situation has not arisen in Goa, Haryana or Himachal Pradesh. {a lot loaded statement and everyone who supports smaller states has this fetish to compare the small states movements to that of Punjab and Haryana and HP. }

The peoples of the two regions should realise that the Telangana movement is not a fight between them. It is between the haves and have-nots. I do not say Telangana would become prosperous after the formation of a separate state. That would depend on the quality of leadership and the direction imparted by it.

Let there be an agitation for Telangana as well as for a separate coastal Andhra State and let the leaders fight on behalf of the people, and not on behalf of semi-feudal and capitalist forces.
{haha - unexpectedly there is a peoples movement in SeemaAndhra for United-AP rather than a politcal/maoist one and hence the Takleef.}

From the news paper reports and what I have observed the following may be the position of the political parties on Telangana agitation.

Center now is pressing for the restoration of peace in AP. Reports suggests that they have warned the Congress leaders from the state not to indulge in activities which may increase tensions. So congress people are going to be quite for sometime.

CBN & TDP are in a fix and also may not want to be seen as persons responsible for creating any law and order situation at this point so is may also keep quite. CBN only playing both sides game so he will have to keep quite. In long term also they may not rake up anything which may seriously change status quo in the state.

There are all kinds of rumors about KCR and his gang. Most prominent is that they have taken money to keep quite. We don’t know about that. But they are keeping quite for now. They can not afford to let the situation cool down and at the same time they can not now risk agitation when Center has given an indication that the Maoist color will be given to any agitation which will create serious law and order problems. KCR may not be as an pro or quasi naxal person.

But the problem with TRS it can not keep quite. They are not status quo party and will not survive long without any agitation. Particularly, when there is a huge momentum behind them. They may keep quite doing something symbolic and peacefully without doing anything provocative and aggressive. But such things are not their hallmark and they will be branded as being people sold out Telangana agitation in no time. Remember what happened when KCR took that juice glass and drank it. I don’t think he will risk that now. He will not be allowed to recover this time by congress. Clasical Catch 22 situation.

BJP acted most stupid manner in AP. They have acted just like KCR and totally ignored the entire costal and rayalaseema party workers and leaders. There was no need for BJP to be over enthusiastic about division of AP and sing duet with KCR who is hated by majority of the AP people who are abused in worst possible manner by KCR time and again. The BJP wanted to build a movement for separate Andhra State like the Jai Andhra agitation of 1971 when the majority is interested in saving the unity of AP. This angered many people. BJP in AP got some good worker base and good will till now. But now in 25 parliament seats in Costal and Rayalaseema areas BJP will find they can not even canvas in future without getting beaten up by public. In Telangana they have to contend with all established parties like Congress TDP, and now TRS. So they will not win even a single seat there for the next 50 years even if they promise moon to people. Even in Hyderabad City large sections of people from Costal regions are regularly voting to BJP. In future they will not.

We need not pity people like Venkaiah Naidu who is from Nellore in Costal Andhra. I have a serious doubt he dare to go to his native place for a long long time. I know people are very very angry about the role of BJP in general and his role in particular. What was need for him to visit KCR in the hospital and press for Telangana in Parliament even when there was strong opposition in other areas of the State? This kind of overreaction is stupid on the part of him. If Sushma Swaraj makes further stupid moves of attending meeting in OU the workers of BJP in Costal and rayalaseema may have to hide in forests or change to some other party.

Jagan blamed after rumour-fuelled clash

The violence against Reliance group, allegedly provoked by a news telecast claiming the business giant got Y S Rajasekhara Reddy killed in a helicopter crash, has triggered unrest in Congress with fingers pointing at Jaganmohan Reddy. While the Telangana faction of the party accused Jagamohan faction of trying to derail division of Andhra Pradesh, others felt it was only an attempt to show that chief minister K Rosaiah was not fit to steer a difficult situation as well as to block the process of formation of Telangana.

KLNMurthy wrote:

Stan_Savljevic wrote: ...

Ramana, can I request you to bat with a straight bat? How is a separate Telengana an impediment to national integration? How is it a threat to the territorial integrity of India? I am getting plain confused by this hide-hide-wink-wink that goes on in this thread. If there is an issue, why dont people, including you, articulate it in English so that people like me who want to learn can try to understand what the real issues are.
...

Ramana garu can speak for himself but I'll put down some concerns I have about the nature of the Telangana movement (as opposed to the question of a separate Telangana state itself, on which one can be objectively neutral). It is different from the splitting of Uttarakhand or Jharkhand or Chattisgarh in that the Telangana movement has a strong flavor of reversion to a zero-sum feudal economy and mindset that existed prior to the ouster of the Nizam. The feudal mindset manifested itself in 3 ways:

I agree with this. There is feudalism in this movement which was not there in the earlier state formation. There is revisionist movement. Economic progress can be made with right resource allocation. Here there are too many players and the people who are in the forefront are not honest.

I think I have found the answer to one of my earlier questions!

a_kumar wrote:If we are looking at the same numbers and still fail to find "any places of agreement", it is fair to say the factors could are not the obvious ones and are "non-quantifiable". How do we figure it out through the rhetoric?

A splendid and insightful article that I have been searching for. From Deepal Jayasekara, published in WSWS.
India: All-Party meeting fails to staunch crisis over Telangana By Deepal Jayasekera (6 January 2010)

Chidambaran, who less than one month ago announced that the central government was resolved to give Telangana statehood, dodged a reporter’s question as to whether Telangana will in fact become India’s twenty-ninth state, “We are trying,” said Chidambaran, “to help the political parties of Andhra Pradesh find the answer to the issues of the state. We are here to help.”

{Flip-flop!!}

Chidambaran denied that the decision to create Telangana had been taken in haste. But Chidambaran’s declamations cannot obscure the fact that the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance government is reeling from widespread criticism from India’s elite of its handling of the Telangana issue. Not only has India’s most populous southern state been thrust into a major political crisis that has disrupted economic activity, especially in Hyderabad, a vital Information Technology hub. The central government’s readiness to bifurcate Andhra Pradesh is seen as potentially opening a Pandora’s Box of demands for the redrawing of the internal borders of India, a country peopled by a myriad of ethno-linguistic groups and marked by profound social, and ever-increasing regional, inequalities.

...............

Last week, the Congress Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh, K. Rosaiah, told reporters that the political unrest had caused major companies, including the French automaker Peugeot Citroën, to defer or relocate projects. “The image of Hyderabad as an investment destination and a hub of information technology, pharmaceuticals and other industries has taken a beating because of the unrest.”

Rosaiah, whose cabinet is hopelessly split over the Telangana question, took no stand at yesterday’s meeting. He simply said that he would endorse whatever decision the Congress Party-dominated central government takes.
{Guess we are back on that track.. "Classic Congress peons" bandwagon. Amma you decide and we will follow!! And then later complain "But we didn't think she would do this!!!" Maybe this is what Jagan is trying to highlight. Is Rossiah the fall guy!!!}
..................

Apart from Hyderabad and its immediate environs, the 10 districts that comprise the Telangana region are known for their economic backwardness and higher incidence of poverty, illiteracy and general social deprivation.

Sections of the local elite and petty bourgeoisie have long advocated separate statehood, claiming that this will provide jobs and facilitate development.

They are being bitterly opposed by more powerful sections of Andhra’s Telugu bourgeoisie. The latter calculate that a “united Andhra” is the best platform to assert their interests on the national stage and are determined to maintain political control over Hyderabad, the current state capital and one of India’s most dynamic metropolitan areas.
{elites vs elites}
..................

This week has seen rival bandhs in favor of and against Telangana. Members of the Joint Action Committee (JAC) at Osmania University in Hyderabad, the center of the pro-Telangana movement, threatened to demolish offices of all parties opposing a separate Telangana state, declaring “No anti-Telangana activists will be allowed to stay in Hyderabad.”

Neither the movement for Telangana nor the counter-agitation for a “united Andhra” represents the interests of the working class, oppressed peasantry and other toilers.

{Said enough times on this thread.}
.................

Led by well-known bourgeois politicians, the rival agitations aim to uphold or alter the existing administrative structure of the Indian capitalist state so as to further the interests of big business and other privileged layers. They are serving to further divide the working class and channel the social anger born of the economic deprivation that confronts all of India’s toilers irrespective of ethnicity, religion or region into a reactionary regional conflict.

{Again said enough times on this thread.}

Proponents of Telangana have vowed to use violence to thwart any measure that would not give a future Telangana state exclusive control over Hyderabad.

Meanwhile, senior TDP senior leaders, Dhulipalla Narendra Kumar and Bojjala Gopalakrishna have sought to exploit traditional frictions between the Telugu and Tamil elites, by accusing Chidambaran of supporting the bifurcation of Andhra Pradesh while opposing the division of his native Tamil Nadu. Chidambaran, they declared, “is against the bifurcation of his native state Tamil Nadu but is ready to divide AP. Why these double standards? It only exposes the vengeful attitude of Chidambaran against the fast-developing Andhra Pradesh.”

The advocates of Telangana are seeking to manipulate the anger over the social crisis that stalks the region, while their “united Andhra” opponents are fomenting ethno-linguistic chauvinism.

..................
The students believe that the creation of a separate state administration for Telangana will give them access to jobs, both because the new state will need to be staffed and because it will be in a legal position to provide Telangana “natives” preferential hiring for public, and potentially private, sector jobs. Explains Professor S. Simhadri of Osmania University, a member of the Telangana Intellectuals Forum, “Unemployment is the biggest issue worrying students. Since most of them are first-generation or second-generation students, they genuinely believe they will have dramatically improved opportunities in a separate state.”

{There he nails it. It was not the numbers we have been discussing to death, this is at the root. }

........

CPM Politburo member and West Bengal Chief Minister Bhuddadeb Bhattacharjee, said January 3, “The whole country is disappointed with you (Chidambaran) the way you have dealt with the Telangana issue. We are facing consequences in Darjeeling and Coochbehar districts where demand for separate states have got a new lease of life… I told the Prime Minister how could such an important decision be taken overnight. And for that we have now got a rejuvenated demand for Gorkhaland.”

Acharya wrote:

KLNMurthy wrote: Ramana garu can speak for himself but I'll put down some concerns I have about the nature of the Telangana movement (as opposed to the question of a separate Telangana state itself, on which one can be objectively neutral). It is different from the splitting of Uttarakhand or Jharkhand or Chattisgarh in that the Telangana movement has a strong flavor of reversion to a zero-sum feudal economy and mindset that existed prior to the ouster of the Nizam. The feudal mindset manifested itself in 3 ways:

I agree with this. There is feudalism in this movement which was not there in the earlier state formation. There is revisionist movement. Economic progress can be made with right resource allocation. Here there are too many players and the people who are in the forefront are not honest.

The more I think about it, the Telangana movement is about competition for the jobs, promotions which are being gobbled up by people moving in from Kosta/Seema because of variety of reasons:
could be people from Kosta/Seema are better equipped to take advantage of opportunities because of better private education facilities in that area
connections as RM explained because Kosta/Seema people got into babudom earlier than their Telangana brothers in 60s/70s/80s.
Resourceful Kosta/Seema people started more industries even in Telangana. They bring in their relatives/friends from their place into upper/middle management because they are more comfortable with them or trust them.
All powerful politicians/relatives during CBN/YSR rule grabbed a lot of lands and became so much wealthier in so little time and most of them are from Kosta/Seema
High paced growth left a lot of people in Telangana less wealthier comparatively because the prices shot up too high, too quick.

These are valid concerns. A separate state might be able to solve some of these grievances at the cost of some investment/growth because people from Kosta/Seema will be seen with suspicion and less co-operation for them in starting new businesses. A lot of money will also will flow to the new capital.

But slow growth may be one way for the people in Telangana to feel not overwhelmed and feel poorer by raising prices of everything from housing to health care.

Was this posted earlier? Andhra:Rosaiah the fall guy (Dec 29, 2009)

Here is a comment from a blog. (possibly still applicable)
http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2009/12/30/4014/

Comment

1. Rosaiah has been quite open about who decides in the Congress Party. When things go right it is Soniaji and the High Command and when things go wrong it is the state leadership. That probably explains why the decision was taken on someone’s birthday as a gift and when it comes to defending the decision the decision maker goes into hiding.

2. I even think some power that be would have caused P.V. Narshimah Rao to die. He knew so many things.

'Leaders are just following the people'
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... 5C/382216/

Talk are continuing to fail.

Talks on Telangana continue

The core committee of the Congress party today discussed its next course of action on the Telangana statehood issue

There is pressure on the party from its factions in Andhra Pradesh about the very structure of the core committee.

The pro-Telangana lobby wants the committee to be headed by a retired judge. This, according to the camp, would signal that the government wants to move forward and looking at the legal options to form the state.

The anti-Telangana group, for obvious reasons, wants a politician to head the committee. The committee would first deliberate on the issue of the political decision on if at all a separate Telangana is needed. A strong section of the Congress favours to keep the committee within the political contours.

Shourie has concerns over the new state. Here

Taking off from the headlines on Telangana, Shourie said: “I feel that we should not come to any sweeping principle that small states are always good.” He cited the example of Jharkhand and how, in governance, it stood in contrast to smaller states like Himachal Pradesh and Haryana. Pointing out that there were strong views on statehood for Telengana, Shourie noted how the government had to factor in the reality of internal security: how Naxals had taken advantage of administrative loopholes in newer states Jharkhand and Chhattisgarh and could do the same in Telangana.

Remember, OU exams begin from 19th jan.
Political Parties To Launch A Rally In Uttar Pradesh For Smaller States

Telangana has led to the demand for smaller states across the country. Members of various political parties, including the Rashtriya Lok Dal (RLD), have planned to meet on Saturday to start a joint movement demanding the division of Uttar Pradesh into smaller states.

RLD will be leading the movement demanding for a separate Harit Pradesh that shall include Western Uttar Pradesh districts. Bundelkhand Vikas Sena (BVS) demands for a Bundelkhadn state that shall comprise of seven districts of Uttar Pradesh and six districts of the state Madhya Pradesh. Purvanchal Vikas Parishad (PVP) is asking for a new state to be carved out of eastern Uttar Pradesh

vijayk wrote:The more I think about it, the Telangana movement is about competition for the jobs, promotions which are being gobbled up by people moving in from Kosta/Seema because of variety of reasons:
could be people from Kosta/Seema are better equipped to take advantage of opportunities because of better private education facilities in that area
connections as RM explained because Kosta/Seema people got into babudom earlier than their Telangana brothers in 60s/70s/80s.
Resourceful Kosta/Seema people started more industries even in Telangana. They bring in their relatives/friends from their place into upper/middle management because they are more comfortable with them or trust them.
All powerful politicians/relatives during CBN/YSR rule grabbed a lot of lands and became so much wealthier in so little time and most of them are from Kosta/Seema
High paced growth left a lot of people in Telangana less wealthier comparatively because the prices shot up too high, too quick.

These are valid concerns. A separate state might be able to solve some of these grievances at the cost of some investment/growth because people from Kosta/Seema will be seen with suspicion and less co-operation for them in starting new businesses. A lot of money will also will flow to the new capital.

But slow growth may be one way for the people in Telangana to feel not overwhelmed and feel poorer by raising prices of everything from housing to health care.

Thing to look, may be in a rather unrealistic way, is what is in it for a mangoman to be fundamentalist about having United AP and not for a model that allows the mangoman to have more say in the governance?

What has come to evidence here, unfortunately, is that backers of Telangana are lumped as being playing into the politicians hand, haters of good old Idly/Dosa/ sambar, sympathizer of Maoist when they have successfully driven them out with their blood and sacrifices, and even alleged to be breaking national integrity.

I wonder if Telangana wasn't phonetically resembling Telugu, I am sure they would have been deprived of the proudest status symbol in the town of claiming to be Telugus status also (not that other insuniations were made that Urdu was more dear to them.)

However, the United AP backers are supposedly NOT playing to their favorite politicians tune but are fighting for the greater good of Telugus and of India

Regarding your last point, I would even argue that once socio-economic conditions of the bottom of the pyramid are improved, the sustained growth will take off to the next level into future decades. That is why I have been one of the voice saying that although there may be different reasons why politicians are putting up their act, ultimately this is a forward move as far as poeple/governance is concerned. Current politicians will bite the dust much sooner but long term positive impact will accrue well into decades/centuries.

After having waited for 3 days without response from Nalapotu Chakravarthy garu on my couple questions, I will take it that the author either vamoosed or doesn't have time to answer my questions. I will continue wait.

Satya_anveshi wrote:After having waited for 3 days without response from Nalapotu Chakravarthy garu on my couple questions, I will take it that the author either vamoosed or doesn't have time to answer my questions. I will continue wait.

send an email. He replied me immediately. I was the one who sent him emails with you intial question and he came here too. may be just drop an email. Just my 2 cents.

Currently AP has 3 major urban centers (Hyd, Vijaywada, Vizag) of which 2 (Hyd and Vizag) are of significance from a large scale investment perspective.

If we have 2 states, obviously it is fair to assume that there will be at least 2 major urban cities in Telangana (Hyd and next logical choice is Warangal) whereas in Andhra will have at least 2 current ones and at least major one developed in Rayalaseema (Kurnool being the obvious choice).

So, the net-net - 2 additional Tier3 cities will develop into Tier2; 1 Tier2 will become Tier1. Now, admistratively, a lot more jobs will be created, local issues come will become election issues and therefore grab politicians focus to eventually resolve them. If Hyd alone is driving so much activity all over AP, why would the above scenario bad at all for the mangomens?

I must also say that Stan ji's post on inviting 2nd SRC also is a fabulous idea/post. In fact all his other posts also have been a treat to read.

Satya_anveshi wrote:Currently AP has 3 major urban centers (Hyd, Vijaywada, Vizag) of which 2 (Hyd and Vizag) are of significance from a large scale investment perspective.

If we have 2 states, obviously it is fair to assume that there will be at least 2 major urban cities in Telangana (Hyd and next logical choice is Warangal) whereas in Andhra will have at least 2 current ones and at least major one developed in Rayalaseema (Kurnool being the obvious choice).

So, the net-net - 2 additional Tier3 cities will develop into Tier2; 1 Tier2 will become Tier1. Now, admistratively, a lot more jobs will be created, local issues come will become election issues and therefore grab politicians focus to eventually resolve them. If Hyd alone is driving so much activity all over AP, why would the above scenario bad at all for the mangomens?

I am hoping this is not being suggested as a justification. If breaking states is the only way we can develop more tier2 cities, it is a disastrous model. Where does it stop?

Tomorrow when we need to build more tier2 cities in Telangana, should Telangana seperate into two parts (one with Hyd and other with Warangal as capital)?

Similarly, should Coastal and Rayalaseema break into two so that other tier2 cities come up?

We need to strive for a more sustainable way of developing the towns/cities. Why should there be only two developed cities in state? Why can't there be 3 or 4 well-developed cities in a state?

Stan said

How is a separate Telengana an impediment to national integration?

Fwiw

I guess it would be over exaggeration and indulging in unnecessary sensationalism to make such a statement .

I guess emotions at times take over and hence such remarks can be neglected unless someone substantiates with credible points.

As I see it division of AP and formation of Telengana by itself does not pose any threat to national integration or similar 'big talk' for the people in political circles who have a say and call the shots this is just another issue of aligning the electorate as per their liking nothing more nothing less , a common person on the ground might not necessarily have too much to gain or loose if the state was to be divided or not (of course I am not talking about emotional and H&D related stuff which usually dominates such topics ) .

As long as the political parties within in a state keep getting formed on lines of 'regional' factors and they continue to color people's grievances with a regional flavor the chances of demands of division of the state increase by a huge margin ( for instance if tomorrow a party 'xyz' strong enough to have a say in political matters of Uttarakhnad chooses to raise a demand for a separate state for Kumaon citing oppression by Garhwalis then I am pretty sure former will have enough historical literature to twist and use to substantiate their claims and same holds true for the other side too ) .

After a while in all such issues it becomes irrelevant to debate if the demands for a new state are justified or not for if the political forces in favor of a new state enjoy substantial foothold they would only stunt the development and growth of the state until their demands are met and there is little GOI can do in such a case (specially when the ruling party itself is one of the culprits) , what should be of importance and prime concern to the GOI is if their exist enough people and machinery to run the two states for in the long run the earlier the new state be formed and done away with the better for the common people .

--sticky fingers

Satya_anveshi wrote:I must also say that Stan ji's post on inviting 2nd SRC also is a fabulous idea/post.

This is more than 10 year old idea that was proposed. Tvadis oppose it as they can lose the grip on how state will be formed as commission has to consider facts instead of what Tvadis come and say on TVs.

Given there are disagreements on nature of committee (See Anuj's post), it behooves on GOI to follow 2nd SRC instead T-specific committees.

Satya_anveshi wrote:Currently AP has 3 major urban centers (Hyd, Vijaywada, Vizag) of which 2 (Hyd and Vizag) are of significance from a large scale investment perspective.

If we have 2 states, obviously it is fair to assume that there will be at least 2 major urban cities in Telangana (Hyd and next logical choice is Warangal) whereas in Andhra will have at least 2 current ones and at least major one developed in Rayalaseema (Kurnool being the obvious choice).

So, the net-net - 2 additional Tier3 cities will develop into Tier2; 1 Tier2 will become Tier1. Now, admistratively, a lot more jobs will be created, local issues come will become election issues and therefore grab politicians focus to eventually resolve them. If Hyd alone is driving so much activity all over AP, why would the above scenario bad at all for the mangomens?

Right......
This is what being churned out behind the print media.
I have no interest in a state split nor in a unified state.I put no bias.But the outcome is gonna be this way: Andhra Pradesh will become Andhra and Telangana.
Neither Andhra nor Telangana will get Hyderabad. {there is a lot of hidden agenda behind these recent agitations,I will take time one day to put them in a clear perspective or can throw the name of the ring master for ones emails}
Newly formed T will most likely get warangal as its state capital.
And the real trouble will show up when selecting the capital for Andhra.
Previously people were okay with a capital center between guntur and vijayawada{ since the T game started, real estate saw peaks in these regions}
And people ruled out Vizag being a capital because of its security issues being on the coast.{ might have to see many more peddlers comeby and attack hot spots}
8 Districts people of Andhra wont agreee with Kurnol being the capital again.
So GOV has to endup buying the prime land in between Guntur/Vijayawada? for establishing its command centres?

vijayk wrote:The more I think about it, the Telangana movement is about competition for the jobs, promotions which are being gobbled up by people moving in from Kosta/Seema because of variety of reasons:

1. could be people from Kosta/Seema are better equipped to take advantage of opportunities because of better private education facilities in that area

2. connections as RM explained because Kosta/Seema people got into babudom earlier than their Telangana brothers in 60s/70s/80s.

3. Resourceful Kosta/Seema people started more industries even in Telangana. They bring in their relatives/friends from their place into upper/middle management because they are more comfortable with them or trust them.

4. All powerful politicians/relatives during CBN/YSR rule grabbed a lot of lands and became so much wealthier in so little time and most of them are from Kosta/Seema

5. High paced growth left a lot of people in Telangana less wealthier comparatively because the prices shot up too high, too quick.

(1) is a lesser reason than (2). When a more qualified person gets a position, irrespective of reason why he is more qualified, the grudge is minimal and gets reconciled, and is limited to those who are job aspirant and not infectious across the non-qualified non-aspirant population. But (2) is important. When a Coasta guy and a Teli are equally qualified and Coasta gets the job because his uncles dominate administration/courts, the grudge is immense and spreads across even those who do not aspire for that job. After all, in India, 90% people dont aspire for Govt jobs and middle management jobs in private as they know and understand that they dont qualify.

(3) is also less reason. Common people always welcome industrialists from anywhere as he brings jobs and doesn't subtract anything. eg Marathies may dislike Gujarati, but in the end they reconcile by the fact that "Gujju is not stealing jobs, Gujju is creating some jobs". So if a Coasta is putting industry in Teli region, Teli will not be upset. But what I suspect is that many Costa industrialists could be using their uncles in courts, administration to crush local Teli small time competing builders and industrialists. In India, it is customary in administration and judiciary to crush the industrialist, builders who are competing against your relatives.

(4) is re-statement of nepotism. If there was no nepotism, corruption would have been less and would have spread across the Teli as well as Coasta.

Since time immemorial, many like myself have been yelling that we must kill all nepotism prone laws in administration, courts ASAP. Or else, cornering of opportunities will give 1000s recruits to subversionists of all kinds. But many people would sing a group song "corruption is cool, nepotism is cool" , and label us as khadoos = dogmatic = impractical. Well, enjoy the light and sound show in AP, and this is the beginning. Worse is yet to come.

===

Arun Shourie is now saying that "small is not always good". Some 20 years back, IIRC, he and all BJP people were the biggest drum beaters of this small state group song. All the 3 new states that came - Uttaranchal, Jharkhand and Chhatisgadh have been disaster. My point is : it is time people realize that the guy has no sensible administrative proposals to offer and is just another educated articulate who can write elegant, but useless stuff only.

.

^^^ Or maybe he has changed his stance after observing the problems of small states and has the humility to admit it

jaladipc wrote: And the real trouble will show up when selecting the capital for Andhra.
Previously people were okay with a capital center between guntur and vijayawada{ since the T game started, real estate saw peaks in these regions}
And people ruled out Vizag being a capital because of its security issues being on the coast.{ might have to see many more peddlers comeby and attack hot spots}8 Districts people of Andhra wont agreee with Kurnol being the capital again.
So GOV has to endup buying the prime land in between Guntur/Vijayawada? for establishing its command centres?

It is amazing how people cook up things to make their city, the capital of the new state. Mumbai with Naval head quarters, less than 500 Km away from Pakistan border can be the state capital and financial center of India, but Vizag, the second largest city, cannot be the state capital due to some fake security risk, being on coast. Therefore, let us make Viajayawada/Guntur as state capital - govt buys huge lands with thousands of crores, the real state rates double, then all the Vijayawada/Guntur real estate tycoons will take their appreciated wealth and buy rest of Andhra, and in 50 years from now we will start another Telangana, one from UA and one from Rayalaseema. Seriously, here is a city infested with disgusting caste and money politics with no ethics and making this as state capital is one of the worst thing that can happen to the new state.

This kind of supression by using the muscle power of money and politics is the main reason why we are in this position. Let us not repeat this.

IMHO, Vizag seems like an obvious choice if the separatists/naxals find a way to partition A.P. It's fairly cosmopolitan, lotsa potentional for urban expansion beyond the hills that cradle the main city including SEZ's along the coast. Has a martial spirit thanks to the Indian Navy and has fairly developed educational and industrial backbone in place. It's right smack in the middle of the strategic and lucrative Calcutta-Madras highway transit corridor and not to mention the potential to build/expand a world class commercial/container/Crusie port there. Also a brand new airport that has a lot of room to expand along with decent tourist economy that can be developed further. Building a new city seems like another waste of tax rupees that could be used to develop Vizag and Vijaywada.

Jarita wrote:^^^ Or maybe he has changed his stance after observing the problems of small states and has the humility to admit it

This is true conclusion. He has changed his earlier stance of small states good for India. There are other factors to consider.

Rahul Mehtaji,
Please don't bring new troubles into the already troubled state. All data and reports show its not ike what you postulate. The problem isnt the judges.

ramana wrote:All data and reports show its not ike what you postulate.

Now, now, Ramana garu...are we in hurry here? I bet you haven't the faintest idea of ground reality and appears that you are believing NC's cookup hook, line and sinker.
He hasn't responded to my post here (after asking question to me here) about how his data/interpretation stands the scrutiny and how his conclusions refute Prof Jayashankar's point.

a_kumar wrote:Tomorrow when we need to build more tier2 cities in Telangana, should Telangana seperate into two parts (one with Hyd and other with Warangal as capital)?
Similarly, should Coastal and Rayalaseema break into two so that other tier2 cities come up?

As long as their is demand and viability, there is no need to disagree with more states.
Intention is not to create states for creating Tier2 but as a consequence a most likely outcome. You have a strange way to twist my arguments. Below is another example.

Why should there be only two developed cities in state? Why can't there be 3 or 4 well-developed cities in a state?

You missed the keyword-"at least" in my post. One can even dream of having all the 9/10 cities as Tier1. It will do whole long good for many people of the region and our country.