Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10, 2015

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 21 Aug 2015 19:57

R. Jagannathan says, keep talking but give nothing.

The problem with this point of view is that it fails to comprehend that even talking with the pakis gives them the "parity" that they crave, and that is enough for pakis. So ignoring pakis completely is the minimal effective response.

Abhay_S · Post by **Abhay_S** » 21 Aug 2015 20:05

^^ good point. what if we keep Talking but give them what they Deserve

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 21 Aug 2015 20:11

what if we keep Talking but give them what they Deserve

well, we can do that without talking too. Why is that not possible?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Aug 2015 20:35

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/nsa ... 50815.html

New Delhi: Shortly after officials from Pak government said that the talks between Sartaj Aziz and Hurriyat leader have been re-scheduled, Home Minister Rajnath Singh confirmed that National Security Level (NSA) level talks will take place between India and Pakistan.

As per the media reports, the Pakistan NSA Sartaj Aziz will now meet Hurriyat leader SAS Geelani on Monday morning.

"We are firm on our stand that whatever talks are held with Pakistan should only be on terrorism," PTI quoted Rajnath as saying.

He further said, "We stick to commitment between Narendra Modi and Nawaz Sharif in Ufa to engage in a substantive discussion on terrorism."

Pakistan decided to re-schedule it's talks with Hurriyat leaders after India indicated that the dialogue could be derailed if Pakistan does not change its stance over meeting the Hurriyat leaders ahead the NSA level talks.

India had virtually axed the talks with Pakistan, saying "unilateral imposition of new conditions and distortion of the agreed agenda cannot be the basis for going forward".

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 21 Aug 2015 21:15

I hope modi and doval have something more than dossiers and photos to show the old far from pakistan. Truth doesn't mean anything to these vermins. The heads of top D bags would be ideal present for them. Maybe an announcement of supplying weapons to ANA.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Aug 2015 21:20

Amid calls to declare Pakistan a ‘hostile state’, US curtails aid, withholds Nawaz Sharif invite to Washington

By Chidanand Rajghatta, TNN

WASHINGTON: Pakistan's bottomfeeding on American aid is about to end unless it terminates its policy of covertly using terrorism to further its frontiers, the Obama administration has conveyed to Islamabad, amid indications that the US is also making Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's proposed visit to Washington conditional to meeting this objective.

A key administration official on Thursday said there has been no announcement about a Sharif visit to Washington in October although the trip had been widely reported in the Pakistani media based on briefings from diplomats in Islamabad. "This is news to me. We have not made any statements about that (Sharif's visit to Washington)," Peter Lavoy, special assistant to the US president and senior director for South Asian Affairs at the National Security Council of the White House, told PTI. "If it is pakka (final) you would be the first to hear."

The rethink — or at least holding back the announcement — of the visit comes after the administration conveyed to Islamabad that it will not certify the effectiveness of Pakistan counterterrorism operation to Congress to enable passage of the Coalition Support Fund (CSF), the military reimbursement aid that goes towards keeping Pakistan solvent.

As part of its rentier-state ethos, Pakistan provides logistical support to US and coalition forces in Afghanistan and in turn bills Washington for reimbursement. Pakistan has extracted more than $13 billion from the US since the coalition forces swooped into Afghanistan.

The CSF was scheduled to end following the US drawdown from Afghanistan in December 2014, but the Obama government extended the program for another year through a legislation containing additional conditions, including a requirement for certification by the defence secretary that Pakistani military operations are rolling up terrorist networks, including the Haqqani group in North Waziristan.

But true to form, Pakistan's military-intelligence establishment has again suckered Washington fooling the US by keeping the death from illnesses of Taliban supremo Mullah Omar and Jalalludin Haqqani while trying to manage their succession.

The manipulation, coming after Osama bin Laden being sheltered in Abbottabad, has further eroded trust in a country with a long history of lying and dissembling. Although US policy of forbearance is centered around its fear of Pakistan's collapse, that tolerance is being tested in the face of the Pakistani military-intelligence's serial malfeasance, including its continued patronage of terrorists associated with the 26/11 Mumbai attacks in which six Americans died.

"The US move is politically more damaging for Islamabad than its financial impact, which is significant nevertheless for being an important source for narrowing the current account deficit. More importantly, it coincided with the deterioration in ties with Afghanistan because of Kabul's allegations that Islamabad continued to harbor Taliban bases from where attacks were being launched," Karachi's Dawn newspaper, which first reported the rupture, said on Thursday.

"The US decision is also likely to sour ties in the run-up to Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's scheduled visit to White House in October," it added.

Pakistan's economy is both parlous and perilously-poised, despite frequent juggling of numbers in a country that does not even conduct a regular census. With economic growth barely matching projected population growth, it is reduced to living on aid and remittances. Even aid is starting to dwindle after its familiar patrons in the Gulf have pulled the plug and its sugar daddy China has not come through with the expected bail-outs.

Desperate to keep the US pipeline open, the Pakistani military, which runs the country's foreign policy on behalf of the nominal civilian government, has been decimating its civilian population with every-day air-strikes this week in North Waziristan, announcing dozens of dead "militants" which no one is able to authenticate due to lack of access.
However, the country's continued patronage of terrorists on its eastern flank with India, including its protection of UN designated terrorists such as Hafiz Saeed and Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi, indicates there has been no fundamental change in its policy.

With Pakistan's salience to American objectives declining in the context of US outreach to Iran and the drawdown in Afghanistan, some scholars are now pressing for a review of Washington's ties with Islamabad. In a Foreign Affairs magazine piece headlined "An Unworthy Ally," C Christine Fair and Sumit Ganguly have argued that the time has come for Washington to "cut Pakistan loose," going as far as to suggest punitive sanctions against Pakistani elite, including visa denials to its top generals and officials who support terrorism.

Extracts from Foreign Affairs article by C Christine Fair and Sumit Ganguly:

* "Since the current approach has little chance of aligning Pakistan's interests with those of the United States, the time has come for Washington to change course. If Washington cannot end Pakistan's noxious behaviors, it should at least stop sponsoring them."

* "Despite Barack Obama's understanding of Pakistan's misdeeds ... his administration, like his predecessor's, has failed to develop policies that limit American complicity in them. As a result, Washington has continued to pay Pakistan to do what any sovereign state should do: eliminate terrorists exploiting its territory."

* "All the while, the United States has not required Pakistan to stop backing militant groups, such as the Afghan Taliban and Lashkar-e-Taiba, even as Islamabad battles those militants who have turned against the state. Indeed, Islamabad has created a permanent revenue stream by arguing that so long as it is fighting militants, it should be entitled to US aid. The United States has been willing to comply because it considers the security of Pakistan's nuclear weapons a core national interest."

* "Past attempts to induce Pakistan to change its behavior have largely failed, and there is little reason to believe that a change in course is imminent. Indeed, what little convergence of interests existed between Washington and Islamabad during the Cold War has long since disappeared. After six decades of policy predicated on Pakistani blackmail, it should be possible to achieve US interests with a different approach."

* "A strategy of containment is the United States' best option. Above all, US relations with Pakistan should be premised on the understanding that Pakistan is a hostile state, rather than an ally or a partner."

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Aug 2015 21:25

Similar news from earlier this week: CSF may not be possible beyond 2015: US

Surprising considering the troop drawdown had been delayed by six months. I wasn't expecting Pakistan to be discarded until late next year. IIRC by the end of 2016, US troop levels are projected to be less than 2000. Which I suppose is small enough to maintain by air, if they have to. Most of their heavy equipment has already shipped out.

Guess the annual lease on the Pakistani state will be allowed to expire early.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 21 Aug 2015 21:31

I guess the Iran deal means Americans figured out they have other options? But I doubt GOTUS would trust Iran any more than pakis.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Aug 2015 21:34

A_Gupta wrote:Nachiket, on the micro-game - LoC Firing - agreed nothing has changed. But Abhay_S's find from the Dawn above, shows that at least one person in Pakistan gets that India has changed the overall game. It is unfortunate that likely nobody in Pakistan will be able to act on the insight, the institutional forces/interests that keep them doing the same thing over and over again cannot be easily overcome.

A_Gupta saar, that is fine, but if the firing on the LoC is to be stopped or at least made too expensive for Pakistan, we need to change the game there as well. Look at what Lt. Gen Hasnain is saying:
X-post from J&K thread

wig wrote:The current LoC narrative and India’s response, by Lt Gen S A Hasnain ( Retd). The article is lucid
In conventional warfare command decisions are based on a range of options, the escalation matrix is well understood and risk is quite easily calculated on the basis of resources, surprise and leadership. However, in irregular warfare the challenge of decision making is sometimes of a higher order. Keeping the threshold low and escalation within control is difficult. The situation on the LoC in J&K is tricky and quite unlike situations which present themselves in conventional operations. However, a non-military mind may not fully grasp this as common perception prevails that there is nothing more to ceasefire violations than simply kinetic responses, the tit for tat concept. The ‘force on force’ approach has never found winners and is considered the unprofessional way of tackling an adversary. However, India’s military leadership which is quite capable of ‘indirect approach’ is yet to fully exploit the *deleted* in Pakistan’s armor. Has the time come for ratcheting our response by many notches?
The situation which presents itself needs a brief reiteration. The Valley and its LoC segment is comparatively quiet and even in the hinterland only small scale militant actions are taking place; mainly by our proactive search for contact. South of PirPanjal the LoC is active both in the Poonch-Rajouri segment and the Jammu IB sector. Large scale terrorist actions have not been attempted although the Udhampur ambush, Gurdaspur strike and the earlier actions at Samba and Kathua severely tested India’s will and tolerance despite being classified as small scale in nature, in the comparison of terror related events. Infiltration which can never be zero is down to very low levels although Naveed, the young Pakistani terrorist captured at Udhampur has confirmed his route of infiltration in Gulmarg sector. It may be incorrect to dismiss the ceasefire violations in passing; these are assuming dimensions larger than witnessed for many years. In pre-2003 daysthe exchanges were far heavier but they could still be accepted. In today’s world of televised news they form a breaking news story every day, hurting the sensitivities of the public. This in turn is putting pressure on the Government and much more on the Army which is required to respond and put an end to this. Armies are not very good at calibrated responses; they prefer a no holds barred engagement.
In trans LoC exchanges of fire there can only be temporary victories between armies; the effect on troops is marginal but the civil population in the vicinity suffers immensely. We are apparently still in the mode of counting the number of violations by Pakistan Army without realizing that the ceasefire in the South of Pir Panjal is as good as dead. It continues to hold in the Valley’s LoC segment. Can we declare boldly that the ceasefire has ceased to exist and India reserves the right to use its weaponry and manpower at place and time of choosing? There never was a formal ceasefire agreement, just a declaration by both sides with Pakistan no doubt taking the lead.
Pakistan is firm of the belief that India is too obsessed with her economic growth and development to risk a full scale conflict. It is calculating its risks very carefully so as not to breach the limit of tolerance or the proverbial ‘tipping point’. The nuclear capability is an artificial protection which Pakistan’s military leadership considers its trump card and which it assesses will keep India acting rationally. Its leaders give veiled threats of the use of the nuclear option if India responds conventionally. With this assessment Pakistan feels emboldened to play the J&K card even as it is embroiled in bitter and violent turbulence brought on by home grown terror. It is also seeking to enhance its strategic hold over Afghanistan. Having sensed J&K slipping from its control it has gone into an overdrive which it feels it can calibrate.
Given the analysis above it is clear that the nexus of the Deep State is completely outside the ambit of political control in Pakistan and it can act irrationally to the extreme without considering the impact or outcome of its actions. Pakistan’s recent foreign policy successes with different international players, has added to this confidence. The bottom line seems to be that India will not risk conflict, it will respond in kind on the LoC and this will help in sensitizing the international community on the potential of war in a nuclear environment. From the utterances on media there seems to be a tutored line to demand investigation by a neutral agency recommended to be UNMOGIP, in order to revive the UN resolutions. As a result of its actions Pakistan is attempting to brow beat India militarily, diplomatically and most important psychologically. In the season of the run up to the Golden Jubilee of the 1965 Indo Pak Conflict, Pakistan realizes that there is considerable research going on in India and the celebratory events will project the defeat of the Pakistan Armed Forces. By upping the ante through LoC exchanges it hopes to retain the self-image of being the victor of the 1965 conflict.
What are India’s options? This question a week before the slated NSA level talks does appear strange and puts the Government under pressure. Through history nations have often remained engaged in discussions even as armies fought on the battlefield. It is a part of the comprehensive narrative of war that whatever be the level of engagement the last edge of the war spectrum is never reached; a miniscule window is always open for reason or conveyance of messages. The Indian Government need never be under pressure on the issue of talks and engagement and can adopt other proactive measures which continue to counter the adversary’s intent. We too have a perception of an escalation matrix and can work within its parameters. What would this involve?
Firstly, public perception cannot be wished away. It cannot lose its confidence in the capability of its armed forces. Therefore a response in kind along the LoC is an absolute necessity. It needs to be to a plan and not just a shell for shell and bomb for bomb response. There are many areas in which we hold a major terrain advantage. In 2011 the J&K media would recall reports from PoK of a segment of people there who held a demonstration before the office of the local DC demanding that Jihadi terrorists be evicted from their area as the people did not wish to see the triggering of exchanges of shelling along the LoC. There are many such locations along the LoC where we hold a major advantage towards hurting the logistics of the Pakistan Army and imposing a time and financial penalty. These are well known within the Army. The transLoC small pin prick actions can be responded in kind quite easily as was done prior to 2003. These are just the first baby steps in response and we need not even be in denial mode on these as Pakistan is. Pakistan can escalate in response, by expanding the ambit to Ladakh; it is not as if we have not lived with this in the past. It is just the quest for rationalism and better sense which has dictated our response discourse. In the bargain a perception has been built within the Deep State that we will not defend our honor because we are obsessed with our growth process. This perception has to be firmly put down through an escalatory ladder of response.
Secondly, the openness of media and the free discussion on India’s military capabilities in the true democratic spirit may have hurt us in terms of a negative perception. This perception appears to have seeped into Pakistan’s thinking. The lack of modernization of artillery and air defence, the inability to induct helicopters and the MMRCA as also aspects such as insufficient ammunition holdings are no doubt issues of concern. However, many of these problems have existed and it is not as if the Pakistan Armed Forces are equipped optimally. India’s Armed Forces need to shed their reticence, speak up and demonstrate. They cannot be perceived to be defensive when offensive nature of conflict forms the cornerstone of their doctrine. The message should be clear; we are prepared always, the gaps are work in progress.
In recent years the Indian Armed Forces have taken a psychological beating due to being embroiled in nonprofessional issues. They are tied in thousands of legal cases involving personnel, pensions, land etc which dilutes the perception of their professionalism. This appears to be sending home incorrect messages to our adversaries. It is a world of perception and psychological warfare has never been our strongest point. The recent OROP controversy needs to be placed at rest the earliest as it is harming our national image. Pakistan must be under no delusion that this has affected our war fighting capability.
Only a few aspects of escalation have been explained above due to space constraints. Our professional warriors know the game well and need to demand their space from the Government. At the Government level my only recommendation is the early conception of psychological warfare machinery. It can start with the MoD loosening the ropes on the public information system of the three Services,in which strides are being made but only gingerly. Half the problem on the LoC is because of incorrect perception that the Deep State holds. Time we gave the perception that we can be even more irrational than what Pakistan is. Who better than the NSA to convey that message and leave the spectrum of response open as per our choice.

Look at the statement in blue. Exactly what I was suggesting as well. We need to appear irrational and crazy. Only then will pakis stop and think before they let loose another volley of mortar fire over the LoC and kill our soldiers and civilians. At the moment, all they expect in return is a similar number of mortar shells and MMG fire at roughly the same locations. They hold the initiative in this and can prepare accordingly. This can't be allowed to continue. They need to be scared of what the crazy Indians might do.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 21 Aug 2015 22:04

Guys, I repeat, ModiJi is going to take a lot of flak, Cong and BJP will be at each other making a fool of themselves and India, and even as these bogus talks flounder, kindly watch this interview, it is BJP Vs the rest going at each other furiously, even K.C. Singh asking BJP to apologize, Dhuppata saying BJP is fascist, while the Paki watches on triumphantly. Spectacles like these are puke worthy no doubt, but, I repeat, from the point of view of cutting losses if you well for the blunder ModiJi committed be resuming talks at Ufa, its a marginally smaller price to pay than get into talks and have TSP resurrected.

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/left-r ... off/379890

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Aug 2015 22:13

I think Modi has done it well. He does not need to Pakis. He keep scheduling talks and Pakis will have to keep inviting Hurriyat every time and talks will be getting cancelled.

Now the Hurriyat cannot be seen as anything but Paki puppets.

Falijee · Post by **Falijee** » 21 Aug 2015 22:15

Pak Daily : Modiji's Successful U.A.E Irks Pakistan As It Remains 'Wedded' To An Old 'Foreign Policy Template'

INDIAN Prime Minister Modi’s visit to the UAE, and the joint communiqué issued afterwards, should be nothing less than a wake-up call for Pakistan.

The communiqué also goes to some lengths to “condemn efforts, including by states, to use religion to justify, support and sponsor terrorism against other countries”, [*]dilating upon this commitment with a specificity and sweep that almost betrays a sense of relish with which the words were written. The language is being widely interpreted to be pointed towards Pakistan.

[*] The Pak Daily 'forgot' to mention U.A.E support for a permanent UN Security Council for India - as it did not want to further hurt the so-called H&D.

This should be enough to wake Pakistan’s foreign policy community up to the fact that their game has changed fundamentally. Lingering territorial disputes are no longer the driving force behind foreign policy. Instead, the foreign interests of states are now, more than ever before, viewed through an economic lens. States can be rivals in one sphere and partners in another.

The game is no longer about pushing a single-agenda item, but the meticulous placement of pieces on an increasingly complex and interconnected chessboard. For Pakistan, remaining wedded to an old foreign policy template developed in the[*] early Cold War years — which saw friends and masters in its search for a big brother who would help solve problems in return for a geopolitical alliance — is no longer a viable option. [/b]

[*] Pakistan, (a creation of the British to guard their Middle - East oil interests and contain 'communism') has always been, and will also continue to be , a rentier state , dependent on the chai-pani, of the rich and famous for its existence

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Aug 2015 22:16

Tufail Ahmad ‏@tufailelif 10m10 minutes ago

#NextSteps Modi govt has not been steadfast on Pakistan. It fell victim to peace-addicted, terror-tolerating policymakers. #NSATalks

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 21 Aug 2015 22:29

sudhan wrote:The article posted by SS ji is digging up mixed feelings in me..

This whole idea of strengthening pork democracy, in my opinion, is a still born one. The park army is too well entrenched in the paki minds to be rooted out or defanged after a few rounds of talks. If the world leaders do agree to NaMo's strategy, the brown pants can quickly activate it's drones (Im L'dim and qadri) and cut the civvies to size and muscle its way into the national affairs. Expecting the good sharif to deliver on court cases is an equally unpractical expectation. The gun and bullet will always trump the gavel.

If the pak army is to be cut to size the only way I can think of is complete obliteration.

On the other hand I believe what is known to public is not the whole strategy. There must be other pieces of the puzzle that are not known for all for obvious reasons.

I wonder if Modi is following the udyoga parvam template of MB --exercise infinite patience even while showing a brief warning glimpse of Viswa rupam (when kauravas exhibited ultimate pakiness of bringing ropes to tie up The Lord Himself) . Even while knowing it won't work, but giving human volition every chance.

Modi knows his Krishna very well, he has claimed Him time and again as a fellow Gujarati. Is he prepared for Kurukshetra? Does he believe that 21st century Kurukshetra is the global marketplace in a bania twist to the epic?

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 21 Aug 2015 22:31

India-Pakistan NSA-level talks unlikely, two sides trade charges

NEW DELHI: A deadlock over Kashmiri separatist leaders on Thursday cast a cloud of uncertainty over the upcoming India-Pakistan NSA-level meeting after the two countries engaged in strong exchanges but neither side was willing to blink.

Even as it appeared that the prospects of talks have dimmed, Pakistan tonight said that hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani would be meeting its national security adviser Sartaj Aziz at 9.30am on Monday, apparently ahead of his scheduled discussions with his Indian counterpart Ajit Doval.

India having made it clear that a meeting between the separatists and Aziz was not acceptable to it, the scheduling of the Geelani-Aziz meeting introduced a new twist into the drama.

Geelani was among the separatist leaders who was briefly detained in Srinagar on Wednesday and it would be a surprise if he is allowed to travel here for the meeting. The onus would then be on Pakistan on either still going ahead with the talks or calling them off.
Cheers

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 21 Aug 2015 22:43

A_Gupta wrote:"Sticks and stones may break my bones, buts words can never harm me".
"He who sniggers last, laughs longest".
It is far better to absorb MSM potshots than to yield an inch to Pakistan.

+1 on the importance of seeing past MSM potshots.

We all have to work on not wasting emotional energy after every errror or dot ball in the game. We are here to not just win the test but to make the other guy lose test status. We have to keep learning and improving our game skills and strategy.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 21 Aug 2015 22:44

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 21 Aug 2015 22:51

A_Gupta wrote:Official MEA statement:
http://www.mea.gov.in/media-briefings.h ... evel_talks

Official Spokesperson's response to the statement put out by Pakistan today on the NSA level talks

August 21, 2015

In response to a question on statement put out by Pakistan today on the NSA level talks, the Official Spokesperson stated:

''The statement by the Government of Pakistan today on the NSA level talks with India does not come as a surprise. There has been a pattern to Pakistan's actions after the Ufa Summit and today's position is a culmination of that approach.

At Ufa, the two Prime Ministers agreed on a meeting of the NSAs to discuss all issues connected to terrorism as well as ensure peace and tranquility on the border. Instead, we saw a sharp increase in the unprovoked firings from the Pakistani side and some serious cross border terrorist incidents. The last one, at Udhampur, resulted in the capture alive of a Pakistani national, a matter that would have naturally come up in the NSA level talks on terrorism, to Pakistan's discomfort.

In so far as those talks are concerned, Pakistan took 22 days to respond to the Indian proposal to meet in New Delhi. It then proposed an agenda that was at complete variance with what the two Prime Ministers had agreed upon in Ufa. Together, these two actions indicated its reluctance to go forward with sincerity on the agreed process. Even more significantly, without confirming either the programme or the agenda, the Pakistani High Commissioner invited Hurriyat representatives to consult with the visiting NSA. This provocative action was completely in consonance with Pakistan's desire to evade its commitment at Ufa to engage in a substantive discussion on terrorism.

The Ufa understanding on the talks - read out jointly by the two Foreign Secretaries - was very clear: the NSAs were to meet to discuss all issues connected to terrorism. This was the only agenda set for them by the two Prime Ministers.

The insistence on meeting Hurriyat as a precondition is also a complete departure from the Ufa understanding. India has always held the position that there are only two stake holders in our relationship, not three.

The people of both countries can legitimately ask today what is the force that compels Pakistan to disregard the agreements reached by two elected leaders and sabotage their implementation.

India remains committed to discussing issues with Pakistan peacefully and bilaterally. In fact, we took the initiative to engage at Ufa. But, unilateral imposition of new conditions and distortion of the agreed agenda cannot be the basis for going forward. ''

There it is. Good sharif / bad sharif strategy. Maligning the paki army. Some of the RAPEs will have a stroke out of sheer rage. Mogambo will munch popcorn and chug beer.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 21 Aug 2015 23:03

Guys, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. I mean I wish India has a modicum of support from "international community". Remember, TSP's circus of blaming India, and all of its strategy is predicated on international community's "equal equal" with India. Think about it. TSP's terrorists are caught in broad daylight in India. Anybody with half an ounce of intelligence knows that India's gains nothing, nada, zilch by initiating any hostilities along the LoC (matter of fact, it is obvious to anyone who has a modicum of interest in the subcontinent that India will gladly forgive TSP for any of its past crimes in return for a modicum of normalcy), you name it, and yet in the halls of international power centers, its India TSP equal equal. "Both sides" trading charges mantra. This is what feeds TSP and this is the gallery, along with its domestic constituency that TSP is playing for. And the entire TSP edifice is in this game, not the civvies Vs army nonsense that is peddled endlessly on Indian media.

Once again, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride, but I wish Indian politicians instead of fighting each other on TV, would at least speak in one voice on the effect "international community's" neutrality has in TSP punching above its weight. And instead of having Paki skunks on Indian TV, how about US/UK diplomats and challenging them? Lots of things India could do differently, but they rather prefer to invite Paki skunks to show their "objectivity", show their "reasonableness", have them piss on us while we fight each other. Mera Bharat mahan

.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 21 Aug 2015 23:06

Tuvaluan wrote:
R. Jagannathan says, keep talking but give nothing.
The problem with this point of view is that it fails to comprehend that even talking with the pakis gives them the "parity" that they crave, and that is enough for pakis. So ignoring pakis completely is the minimal effective response.

For the paki mind, even "not talking " will be taken as a measure of their self-importance. See, we are so important that India is afraid to talk.

We can't get into the game of trying to control how pakis feel about themselves vis-a-vis India. We need to figure out what our interests / goals are and how we are going to accomplish them.

We need to calm down about our own mistakes/ missteps. Nobody in the history of mankind has dealt with a pakistan of this order of magnitude. We need to make up the playbook and learn the skills as we go along. And we need to keep in mind that bad though we may seem at this game, we are still by far the best in the world at it.

And for once, our captain is the best player of the game.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 21 Aug 2015 23:11

Just read the MEA statement.. heh heh heh.. the spokesperson has pulled down Paki langot..

Now the Karan Pappads and the other anti-India (ku)NDTV presstitues will get orders from their ISPR handlers to start flinging poop on GoI, abduls in cashmere will furiously wave various flags, motormas in hijabs will hoist Paki flags..

Abt time Pawkis deploy their tactical briliance..

On a serious note, a page or two back one of the fellow rakshaks had posted a transcript from youtoob.. Abt Gen. Zaheer 'eyebrows phor sunshades' ul islam. He had apparently completed an operation against india. Wonder what it was all about.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 21 Aug 2015 23:19

CRamS wrote:but they rather prefer to invite Paki skunks to show their "objectivity", show their "reasonableness", have them piss on us while we fight each other. Mera Bharat mahan .

I have often wondered why do Indian channels behave like they are based in Europe or USA and are neutral parties to these two third world country's conflict. This goes for English print media as well.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Aug 2015 23:21

^^Because in their twisted minds, this makes them feel soup-e-rear to us common Indians.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 21 Aug 2015 23:33

^^^ And the other exasperating thing is, note every TSPian speaks the same script. I have seen very very rarely, I think just once, Pakis pounce on Hussein Haqqani (in his change avatar) when the appeared on Dorknob's show, but in general, they speak to the script. No, part of this could be that ISI put a bullet on someone's head should they deviate, but it seems to me that more often than not, they do it out of pride, conviction, and national interest.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 21 Aug 2015 23:51

Inviting the Pakis to talks is like inviting a dog to a game of cricket. Don't be surprised if he takes a p*ss on the pitch before getting down to business.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 Aug 2015 23:54

CRamS wrote:^^^ And the other exasperating thing is, note every TSPian speaks the same script. I have seen very very rarely, I think just once, Pakis pounce on Hussein Haqqani (in his change avatar) when the appeared on Dorknob's show, but in general, they speak to the script. No, part of this could be that ISI put a bullet on someone's head should they deviate, but it seems to me that more often than not, they do it out of pride, conviction, and national interest.

It is a coordinated game with all outbound message scripted the same. This is usually the agencies who will coordinate this with their media, TV. During the Mumbai attack there was coordination in the Pak TV to give the same message. 'Kasam is not from Pak' message.
This is sign of weakness and show that they dont have any levers to change the situation.

Indians dont realise that Indian voices has increased world wide with Internet and TV and social media. This is terrifying to many nations and establishment and MSM. To protect the foriegn govt create their barriers and messages.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 21 Aug 2015 23:56

With all the pressures being applied on pakis - worried they will do what they usually do...

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 Aug 2015 00:22

SSridhar wrote:NSA talks: Will Modi's new approach on Pak of engaging Nawaz Sharif & responding to Gen. Sharif's provocations be fruitful? - Pranab Dhal Samanta, Economic Times
TEA WITH BARACK[/u][/b]

Officials said Prime Minister Modi had discussed elements of this strategy with major Western leaders. During his January visit this year, US President Barack Obama hadn't raised Pakistan during formal talks. But talking a walk on Hyderabad House lawns before sitting down for tea with his host, Obama told Modi he wanted to understand the latter's approach on Pakistan and hoped to have a chat on that "over there (at the tea-table)". Modi, officials said, responded briefly as they walked. He told Obama that the US must understand that the larger problem was Pakistan itself. Modi recounted he had wanted to reach out to Pakistan after the Peshawar tragedy, but suddenly there was talk of Pakistan releasing Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi.

During tea with Obama, the Indian PM elaborated his strategy that he explained later to other Western leaders as well, France's Francois Hollande and Germany's Angela Merkel.

During his visit to France and while talking to President Hollande, Modi recalled his chat with 'Barack'. The PM told the French leader that what he had suggested to Obama is may be the time had come for all major democracies to adopt one, single approach towards a meddling Pakistan Army and in doing so, show solidarity with the democratically elected government in Islamabad.

Modi shared with Hollande a 'radical' suggestion he had made to Obama - Western leaders and senior officials visiting Pakistan do away with customary meetings with Pakistan Army officials. This, Modi told his French host, would convey a strong message that the democratic world was united in its preference towards the civilian government. The PM articulated similar views to German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

A few observations:

Modi is taking an initiative in formulating a Pakistan policy.
Modi is marketing his Pakistan policy to other world leaders.
Modi is basically telling them, that since you are all democrats, how about strengthening the hands of democrats in Pakistan, and sidelining the Pakistani Army.
Now most Western countries would continue to deal with the Pakistani military, regardless of Modi's pitch, because that is where power lies in Pakistan.
So basically Modi has put the other world leaders on the defensive, that their actions are contrary to promoting democracy in Pakistan.
What this allows is a lot more freedom to Modi to pursue an ar$e-thrashing policy towards Pakistan Army and their surrogates, without getting any protests from Western countries. And in spite of beating Pakistan black and blue, Modi can stand there in a positive light as one helping Pakistani democracy.
The motions of dialogue between India and Pakistan is important because it serves to as the velvet hand over the iron fist. For this policy, Modi in fact has a good partner in Nawaz Sharif. Nawaz provides Modi the counterfoil.
Without a dialogue with the civilians Indian policy would look aggressive and contrary to world peace. Then others start intervening, and India and Pakistan get an equal-equal. With the dialogue, India looks like we know exactly how to handle Pakistan and still promote world peace.
If we want the wall-sitters to buy in into Indian policy towards Pakistan, we have to sugar-coat our policy. We have to make a pitch as our only interests is to save the butterflies and bees of the world. Then other world leaders would think that association with such a policy in fact improves their own standing as promoters of world peace and their electorate would approve of them. Nobody wants to be associated with a warmonger.
Of course the Paki civilians cannot provide India with anything, not Lakhvi, not Hafiz Saeed, not Dawood. That is clear. The civilians in Pakistan do not have that kind of clout. But what they can do is to provide a counterfoil for our policy of hitting Pakistan and better managing the fallout - nobody thinking in terms of Kafir-Muslim wars, nobody thinking of Islamophobia, nothing what the Pakistani Army can sell the Jihadis of the world.
The final objective of this policy should be that GoI should be able to have a friendly dialogue with civilians and Pakistanis cheering the "friendship" as we start bombing Pakistani Army, and the Abduls completely stop caring about the number of dead uniformed and non-uniformed Jihadis. Also the rest of the world should be cheering us for doing so much for Paki democracy.

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 22 Aug 2015 01:28

No NSA-level talks if Sartaz Aziz meets separatist leaders, India warns Pakistan

NEW DELHI: India today made it clear to Pakistan that it should not go ahead with the meeting of its NSA Sartaz Aziz with Hurriyat representatives here when he comes to hold talks with his Indian counterpart Ajit Doval, saying it will not be "appropriate".

In a clear message to the Pakistan High Commission, which has invited hardline Kashmir separatist leaders Syed Ali Shah Geelani and others separatists, India said such a meeting would not be in keeping with the spirit and intent of of the understanding reached at UFA, Russia to jointly work to combat terrorism.

"India has advised Pakistan yesterday that it would not be appropriate for Sartaz Aziz to meet with Hurriyat representatives in India," spokesperson in the External Affairs Ministry Vikas Swarup said in a tweet.

He tweeted that India has sought confirmation of its proposed agenda for the NSA-level talks that was conveyed to the Pakistani side on August 18.

The two NSAs are scheduled to meet in New Delhi for talks on terrorism-related issues for the first time on August 23, as decided in a meeting between Prime Ministers Narendra Modi and Nawaz Sharif last month in Ufa in Russia.

The invitation by the Pakistan High Commission to Geelani and other separatist leaders including Umar Farooq on Sunday to meet Aziz has upset New Delhi but Pakistan has stuck to the line that such meetings were "routine".

Pakistan Foreign office had said in Islamabad that consultations with Hurriyat leaders were a "routine matter" and a "long standing practice".

The Pakistani invitation, which is seen as yet another "provocation" by Indian side, comes after persistent ceasefire violations as well as two terror attacks in recent weeks in Gurdaspur and Udhampur which many observers see as Pakistan army's opposition to any discussions with India.

Last year, India had unilaterally called off Foreign Secretary-level talks after the Pakistan High Commissioner here had held "consultations" with the Kashmiri separatist leaders on the eve of the FS-level meeting in Islamabad.

Significantly, Pakistan High Commissioner Abdul Basit had last week said his country will not "abandon" the Kashmiris' "legitimate struggle for freedom", stressing that to have normal and cooperative relationship with India it was necessary to settle the decades-old dispute
Cheers

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 22 Aug 2015 01:41

Dawood on NSA talks agenda, India has proof he lives in Karachi

Pakistan High Commissioner in Delhi Abdul Basit may have told HT this week that there was no question of handing over 1993 Mumbai blasts main accused Dawood Sheikh Ibrahim as he was not in his country, but documentary evidence available with the Indian security agencies nails this as a lie.

If they meet as scheduled on Monday, National Security Advisor Ajit Doval is set to confront his counterpart Sartaj Aziz on Pakistan giving shelter to a man formally recognised as a global terrorist. Interpol has a red corner notice, or an international arrest warrant, out against Dawood and a host of his associates for their involvement in the 1993 serial blasts that killed more than 257 Indians and injured hundreds more.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 22 Aug 2015 01:44

Wasn't there reports of dawood doing face surgery to change appearance?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 Aug 2015 02:04

I have Dawood's home located on google earth for at least the last 8 yrs ...

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 22 Aug 2015 02:07

KLNMurthy wrote: For the paki mind, even "not talking " will be taken as a measure of their self-importance. See, we are so important that India is afraid to talk.

We can't get into the game of trying to control how pakis feel about themselves vis-a-vis India. We need to figure out what our interests / goals are and how we are going to accomplish them.

The "not talking" part is not about controlling how pakis feel (which is impossible given that they are all psychos) -- it is to ensure pakis cannot carry on with their "pretend to talk and commit terrorism" tactic they did in the 90s and even during MMS regime.
Just looking at it from the perspective of not allowing them to respond in known predictable ways from the standpoint of self-preservation.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 22 Aug 2015 02:42

Tuvaluan wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote: For the paki mind, even "not talking " will be taken as a measure of their self-importance. See, we are so important that India is afraid to talk.

We can't get into the game of trying to control how pakis feel about themselves vis-a-vis India. We need to figure out what our interests / goals are and how we are going to accomplish them.
The "not talking" part is not about controlling how pakis feel (which is impossible given that they are all psychos) -- it is to ensure pakis cannot carry on with their "pretend to talk and commit terrorism" tactic they did in the 90s and even during MMS regime.
Just looking at it from the perspective of not allowing them to respond in known predictable ways from the standpoint of self-preservation.

Anything that puts the mirchi up paki musharafs, as Manohar Parrikar so lovingly put it, should be encouraged for its BENIS value. That can also keep them occupied, and distract their focus and energies even more than is the case now.

A corollary of the proposition that there is no way to predict or control paki self-image, their words and is that we can do anything to them, even if it is just to amuse ourselves, without worrying too much about the nuances of what will they think in what dark corner they are worshipping in etc.

To get actual results that benefit India and humanity, serious action and resources should be reserved for the larger strategic game of leaving them with nowhere to turn, and making them stew in their own juices.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 22 Aug 2015 03:11

CRamS wrote:Guys, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. I mean I wish India has a modicum of support from "international community". Remember, TSP's circus of blaming India, and all of its strategy is predicated on international community's "equal equal" with India. Think about it. TSP's terrorists are caught in broad daylight in India. Anybody with half an ounce of intelligence knows that India's gains nothing, nada, zilch by initiating any hostilities along the LoC (matter of fact, it is obvious to anyone who has a modicum of interest in the subcontinent that India will gladly forgive TSP for any of its past crimes in return for a modicum of normalcy), you name it, and yet in the halls of international power centers, its India TSP equal equal. "Both sides" trading charges mantra. This is what feeds TSP and this is the gallery, along with its domestic constituency that TSP is playing for. And the entire TSP edifice is in this game, not the civvies Vs army nonsense that is peddled endlessly on Indian media.

Once again, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride, but I wish Indian politicians instead of fighting each other on TV, would at least speak in one voice on the effect "international community's" neutrality has in TSP punching above its weight. And instead of having Paki skunks on Indian TV, how about US/UK diplomats and challenging them? Lots of things India could do differently, but they rather prefer to invite Paki skunks to show their "objectivity", show their "reasonableness", have them piss on us while we fight each other. Mera Bharat mahan .

Why does India need a "modicum" of support from "international community" anyway? And should India really care? Did India really care about this "international opinion" when it delivered Bangladesh through a cesarean operation on Pakistan?

Beside what international community are we talking about? USA, their main benefactor, is saying no more CSF money for you and contemplating on declaring it a hostile state, Saudis are whipping their famous anchor on ass every week, another of their Haramzada ( Peerzada ?) anchor got arrested in UAE. And this is the support Pakistan has from the their 4-fathers/3.5 in the international community, the least we talk about the rest the better. The sole exception here is China and that too they have obliquely referred to the terrorism emanating from Pakistan. When push comes to shove, going by historical record, China has not bailed them out in past, and I don't see why it will do so now.

In the eyes of the broader international community Pakistan's image is sullied beyond redemption, check out the polls in the last decade or so, Pakistan is right there at bottom with the likes of North Korea, Sudan and the assorted bunch.

About LOC skirmishes, you need to understand one thing if we are fired at from across the border then we MUST retaliate, no if's and but's here, and if we are going to retaliate then we should pound them hard every single time. Recall the recent interview of the Indian general posted on this thread, we have definitely upped the ante. Now as far as effectiveness of such a strategy is concerned, it's too early to pass judgement, so hold your horses, at least allow it some time to have a basis for your comments. We have to give it some time before we start using words like "nada", "zip", "zilch" etc.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Aug 2015 03:37

Chandragupta wrote:
I have often wondered why do Indian channels behave like they are based in Europe or USA and are neutral parties to these two third world country's conflict. This goes for English print media as well.

+1
I tweeted this message after reducing the no of characters. Pls help spread it to the usual presstitutes.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 22 Aug 2015 03:42

Bheeshma wrote:Is this a BRFite?
https://twitter.com/majorlyp

No.

member_23365 · Post by **member_23365** » 22 Aug 2015 03:50

shiv wrote:
Chandragupta wrote:
I have often wondered why do Indian channels behave like they are based in Europe or USA and are neutral parties to these two third world country's conflict. This goes for English print media as well.
+1
I tweeted this message after reducing the no of characters. Pls help spread it to the usual presstitutes.

Hakimji whats your twitter handle.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 Aug 2015 03:51

Bheeshma wrote:Is this a BRFite?
https://twitter.com/majorlyp

No, He is a Paki

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 22 Aug 2015 04:21

Dipanker wrote:
...

Why does India need a "modicum" of support from "international community" anyway? And should India really care? Did India really care about this "international opinion" when it delivered Bangladesh through a cesarean operation on Pakistan?

...

Actually, in the Bangladesh liberation campaign, great care was taken to manage the international community. You or I may have been able to do it without all that unnecessary stuff, but that's how team India did it back then.