Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

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Karan M
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

shiv wrote:You are free to ignore them Karan if that is what you wish. I did mention Red Flag and TACDE. They are about the best possible simulation in the absence of war.
Red Flag and TACDE counter the claims about light fighters & BVR. USAF pilots have gone on record stating their Red Flag experience was more intense than what they faced in "real war" in terms of many issues. (Of course, against Iraq and not PRC).
But no cigar. Still not war. War experience can only come from looking at war data.
No wars have occurred with S-400. Why is India procuring them?
Similarly, why did Russia buy Su-30 SM & India the MKI as both were unproven.

Point is "only war determines everything" only goes so far.
Simulation experience comes for exercises. I am not talking about ignoring that as you have suggested. But the data that has come from real life combat suggests that BVR combat does not really take place as discussed (or advertised). Combat aircraft have simply not detected adversaries 120 km away and shot them down at 80 or "scared away all the opposition" by simply shooting and missing (as commonly alleged in internet discussions).
That data comes from 1991. When the fighter & missile radar combinations available to the world were a fraction of what they are now.

That Indian SDRE AEW&C flying today? That's in all likelihood far more advanced in some respects than the humongous E3C used by the USAF in Desert Storm.

You can just state all this does not apply Shivji, but the rest of the world does not think that way. I am just pointing out that advances have occurred and that's how things currently are.
Last edited by Karan M on 15 May 2016 07:20, edited 2 times in total.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

shiv wrote:
Karan M wrote: Lets just ignore all of that.
Karan - this argument is unnecessary. Not least because you are making it, not me. If you don't mean it, please don't say it. I am not saying it. You and I have different views. We need not have consensus on what both of "us" should believe.
All I am doing is pointing out that the statements about the light fighter segment, eg LCA claiming it won't necessarily be as effective at BVR as heavy fighters, is countered by multiple sources.

This is nothing personal (and I can't reiterate that enough) since I do deeply respect you (and your efforts on multiple segments).

However, in this one case, I do think that if you had the same time & patience with which you approached the OIT issue, you'd see an entirely new side to the matter. Unfortunately the whole discussion has got sidetracked thanks to the gent on whose ideas we started all this off & its become you said, she said.

Objectively though, a huge plethora of evidence exists to show how much systems have advanced - even for the Sea Harrier.

Tactics matter too. As the Cope exercises and Gripen excerpts showed. Regional requirements matter too. LCAs wont be attacking Beijing as we once discussed but PAF bases.

The advancement in light fighter tech is the whole challenge for us.. we have to keep advancing and developing our own systems too.

I consider that a net positive, we have the LCA. Because what you develop for a light fighter can be scaled up for a Su-30, but not vice versa.

If one day, we can make a 150km ranged radar for the 650mm LCA dia, then we can do so much more for a 1mtr dia Su-30 system.

Anyways OT.
Last edited by Karan M on 15 May 2016 07:19, edited 3 times in total.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

Yes, but those issues were identified and fixed. Pork barrel politics & problems exist for most MICs. But they aren't always the norm either. Otherwise we'd use Catch-22 to analyze WW-2.

manjgu wrote:On February 15, 1991, President George H. W. Bush traveled to Raytheon's Patriot manufacturing plant in Andover, Massachusetts, during the Gulf War, he declared, the "Patriot is 41 for 42: 42 Scuds engaged, 41 intercepted!"[41] The President's claimed success rate was thus over 97% to that point in the war. The U.S. Army claimed an initial success rate of 80% in Saudi Arabia and 50% in Israel. Those claims were eventually scaled back to 70% and 40%.

On April 7, 1992 Theodore Postol of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and Reuven Pedatzur of Tel Aviv University testified before a House Committee stating that, according to their independent analysis of video tapes, the Patriot system had a success rate of below 10%, and perhaps even a zero success rate.[42][43]

Also on April 7, 1992 Charles A. Zraket of Harvard's Kennedy School of Government and Peter D. Zimmerman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies testified about the calculation of success rates and accuracy in Israel and Saudi Arabia and discounted many of the statements and methodologies in Postol's report.[44][45]

According to Zimmerman, it is important to note the difference in terms when analyzing the performance of the system during the war:

Success Rate – the percentage of Scuds destroyed or deflected to unpopulated areas
Accuracy – the percentage of hits out of all the Patriots fired
In accordance with the standard firing doctrine on average four Patriots were launched at each incoming Scud – in Saudi Arabia an average of three Patriots were fired. If every Scud were deflected or destroyed the success rate would be 100% but the Accuracy would only be 25% and 33% respectively.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

Non combat proven aircraft and platforms at the time, the IAF procured them.

MiG-29.
Mirage 2000.
Su-30 MKI.
Phalcon.
Tejas

Non combat proven aircraft at the time, the world is buying/bought (even the Flankers fought off in Africa later)
Gripen
JSF
Su-35
J-11/Su-27SK
J-10
JF-17
F-22

The point is that apart from NATO who else is constantly going to war, yet advances keep concurring and the world has to move accordingly.

Actual War has a huge psychological component to it. people die. Which is why peacetime exercises are so important to iron out all those things that will be missed during war.

And advances keep happening.
In 1990s, smaller Kopyo radar @ 57km outperformed the 1980's Mirage 2000 RDM radar.
And so it goes.

I wish the same effort were shown towards medical issues though. We would have cured cancer by now.
Last edited by Karan M on 15 May 2016 07:34, edited 1 time in total.
NRao
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by NRao »

War experience can only come from looking at war data.
Eh?

War experience can only come from participating in a war.

War data can come from either a war OR other non-war means. Especially with missiles, one does not need to go to war to gather pertinent data. In fact war data is more than likely to be biased or skewed.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

Don't mean to be rude or crude, but I remember a Russian wag commenting on Syria that Russia was finally a world power again, since it too was bombing hapless Middle East. Such is the state of "wars" and "combat proven" in the world we live in. Selling combat proven M1s to Saudis who lose them against Houthis firing RPGs.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by TSJones »

....depends on how you use the equipment.

few tech devices turns one into a magical warrior.

one must train hard and smart and have enough discipline to overcome disadvantages which always seem to arise.

you can't kick back and relax thinking that you can always out run and out gun the opposition.

that is a sure fire recipe for disaster.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by NRao »

TSJ, apparently you have not seen a Gnat. It whipped the F-86. So, kicking back is part of the ritual. It is what it is, my friend.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by NRao »

BTW, why did PD not include the Saber in his analysis? Grrrrrrr.

It has a far better AR than a Gnat.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by brar_w »

I think one thing that needs to be cleared is that Red Flag is a large force deployment exercise. Its the pinnacle of near real-world training where operational concepts are deployed in an operationally relevant construct. Its NOT a place where you test, develop, or refine new tactics, or new capability. The T&E units have far greater access to ranges, and aids to actually put new systems through their paces hence that portion is kept away form Red Flag which is there to put combat units through the most realistic war like scenario to maximize their survivability and lethality in actual combat.


So as far as countermeasures go, none of the fancy stuff that is likely to effect currently deployed missiles, and radars is actually worth considering since its pretty much unproven having never been put to test in actual war and anything else really doesn't count the same. Thats a considerable threat reduction right there ;)..Out go those pesky wide-band AESA's, Modern DFRM techniques, and those passive radars..

The reason why the air-forces around the world don't share the same viewpoint as PD and aren't putting his plans into effect is because their success depends upon looking out into the future and having credible offensive and defensive capability amidst a constantly changing environment as far as technology is concerned and how that drives Tactics, Techniques and Procedures. If you don't do that you surrender quite a bit to your adversary that may not be as complacent. The Gulf War by n large proved how net centric large force deployments work, and ushered in a new era when it came to that and PGM's. It was an overwhelming show of force for 2nd offset strategy technologies and while not all performed as per plan plenty performed well enough to establish without doubt that this was the direction combat-air-forces and joint forces would be pursuing for decades on in. Since then , AEW have proliferated and many professional combat air forces have fully adopted net-centric warfare (IAF being one of them) while the US that pioneered it through technology development in the 70's and 80's has completely overhauled or drastically improved upon the systems operationalized in the gulf-war and has embarked on another offset strategy to pursue similar asymmetric capabilities for the future. Innovation and staying ahead of the 'curve' is critical to modern militaries, if only the allies had the technological foresight and leadership to see 5-10 years out when compared to some of the germans, WW2 would have been over much quicker.

Its ok to be cautious, its also ok to ask for proof about everything. Its also, ok to be skeptical about nearly everything. However, in order to subscribe to the argument in PD's case one would have to completely disregard what has happened over the last 2 and a half decades of technology development, and believe that an open source, review of literature basing its conclusion on partial information obtained from the previous decades of air-combat will be able to depict, accurately and fairly, the performance of systems that are essentially a giant leap over what capability existed when the last major large force deployment occurred. Its a look backwards in time, and not in the present our out into the near to mid term. Articles will love to talk about IFF limitations in the early 90's..BUT its 2016...there have been tremendous advances made in that especially since it was at the very highest level pursued as an urgent requirement to improve in (because the US and NATO fight comprises of multi-nation forces with multiple sources of hardware suppliers).

I guess if one is naturally skeptical (folks like PD, Sprey probably are) than one may actually find it much easier to believe some of the scenarios. SAM threat? What SAM threat, when has an S300/400 shot down anything so that means it unproven, damn the testing so we can fly our Gnat right over it. If they do get torn to shreds we'll learn from that war and the next Super-Gnat we field (if there is a next war) will add survivability against S300/400 and we'll wait for another war to see whether the S600 thing is all its made out to be :D Not sure most in leadership positions in combat-air-forces around the world would be comfortable with being behind the eight ball as one would naturally need to be if one is subscribing to such an approach.

The reason why you have high technology system is because someone, somewhere sees trends and has the vision to spot challenges likely to appear thanks largely to technology (and the effect it has on tactics, training and procedures) and then pursues solutions with the longer arc of time in mind. Net Centricity was born not because someone went out and proved some technology in war. It was born because visionaries saw an overwhelming force structure advantage the SU had, and did not want the US to match the Soviet Union, tank for tank, bomb for bomb and missile for missile. That someone convinced enough folks to pursue an asymmetrical path to counter a particular capability and the rest has played out over the last 3 or so decades. You don't count on geniuses to come up with this, hence you build a comprehensive Red Team effort (different form RED training), have a very high level empowered scientific and operator community (DSB being one such organization in the US) and provide the operators the tools, and equipment with which they can experiment, measure, record and analyze some of the hypothesis as far as absorbing very high end 'future' capability into an operational construct. You sort out these things before taking this to war (Read about ASSAULT BREAKER) so that you have a high degree of confidence when you actually do take these things to war. Having this setup in place to constantly align your capability with your threat in both legacy and innovative ways is what differentiates the top air-forces of the world and its clear this is what India is actually aiming to do. In a nut-shell the technology you currently have is a reflection of you are going to fight wars 5-10 years into the future, with what you plan to field over the 10 years is what you intend to use over the 3-4 decades that follow.

Since we have used 'ASYMMETRIC" quite a few times, its only pertinent to post this as a recap and to get some sense of what the future is likely to show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9PswCdTi2E

Assault Breaker
According to a Defense Advanced Research Project Agency (DARPA) history, “the question to be answered was whether developments in sensors, computing, communications, guidance, and munitions allowed for deep precision attack against hard, mobile targets.” American and NATO military leaders had to be able to quickly identify, track, target, and destroy both stationary and moving enemy forces before they could reinforce the first wave of any Soviet attack that was being engaged by NATO’s defensive forces.

Assault Breaker was among a handful of technology programs that encouraged greater Army and Air Force cooperation. Generals Don Starry, commander of the Army’s Training and Doctrine Command, and William Creech, head of the Air Force Tactical Air Command, supported the effort. Assault Breaker did not threaten either Service’s existing programs. In addition to elements of BETA and CELT, Assault Breaker integrated long-range weapon systems with surveillance and early warning systems. Precision strike required precision munitions. Assault Breaker therefore reinforced the need for both the Air Force’s wide area anti-armor (WAAM) project and the Army’s Terminally Guided Sub-Munition (TGSM) for rocket systems and artillery. The Lance nuclear missile was later adapted to what became the Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) used in the first Gulf War.

Assault Breaker leveraged existing airborne surveillance and targeting programs: the Army’s helicopter-mounted Stand Off Target Acquisition System, an airborne targeting system similar in concept and operations to the Air Force’s E-3 Sentry Airborne Warning and Control System. The first production version of the Sentry was delivered in 1975 for testing and evaluation and entered operational service with the 552nd Airborne Warning and Control Wing, Tinker Air Force Base, Oklahoma, in 1977. During Air Force demonstration flights in Europe, Sentry operators discovered that autobahn traffic was being picked up on radar, fueling interest in a ground moving target indicator radar.

Existing efforts to develop a long-range synthetic aperture radar for the high-altitude TR-1 surveillance aircraft were adapted to modify the radar for an aircraft called PAVE MOVER – which became the basis for the Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System (JSTARS). JSTARS remains a key legacy of Assault Breaker.Testing of Assault Breaker components began in 1979 and a successful demonstration occurred in late 1981. The demonstration involved integrating a moving target radar system, ground- and air-launched missiles, and sub-munitions to destroy tanks located ninety miles away. The targets represented, albeit on a small scale, the potential to see, target, and destroy Soviet armored vehicles located in the rear echelons – the follow-on-forces.

Upon learning of U.S. advances in stand-of precision strike following the Assault Breaker, then Soviet Chief of Staff Nikolai Ogarkov recommended a “strategic pause” in Soviet military procurement because U.S. and NATO modernization efforts were perceived to be neutralizing the Soviet quantitative advantage.


Follow-On-Forces-Attack



The successful Assault Breaker concept demonstration was particularly important to defense planners grappling with a perceived increase in tensions between NATO and the Warsaw Pact, and an ominous shift in the European military balance. In 1981, the CIA estimated that Soviet annual military spending was roughly double U.S. spending in real terms. Soviet factories were producing three to four times as many fighters and three times as many tanks as the United States. The Soviets also built more attack submarines to disrupt the U.S. Navy’s delivery of soldiers and equipment to reinforce Europe and other theaters.

The conventional military threat to stability seemed particularly grave in light of the 1981 Polish crisis and changes in Soviet troop movements during exercises. Soviet military units practiced radio silence, preventing U.S. signals intelligence assets from reporting on signs of troop movement. Shorter winter days meant less daylight for satellite imagery to warn of changes in troop dispositions or changes in their mobilization. Movements went undetected for days and more, leading to increased fears that a future exercise could be the pretext for a surprise attack. Of note, the Egyptians used an exercise as cover to launch the 1973 War.

Building on the Assault Breaker concept demonstration, key tenets of the emerging AirLand Battle Doctrine, the Army’s Deep Strike Doctrine, and Air Force advanced air interdiction concepts, Supreme Allied Commander, Europe (SACEUR) General Bernard W. Rogers proposed Follow-On-Forces-Attack (FOFA) as a new mission concept to organize U.S. and NATO efforts to offset Soviet conventional forces. FOFA was adopted by NATO in November 1984. Among the gaps addressed in FOFA programs were:

Lack of suitable ground-launched missiles
Inability to operate aircraft at night and in bad weather
Inability to acquire and target moving vehicles at night and through clouds
Inability to dynamically identify and target armored vehicles moving in and out of urban or other areas (reacquiring lost target tracks)
Lack of effective integration of corps, division, and battalion capabilities to support maneuver forces across division control lines
Defeating enemy air defenses, including shoulder-fired missiles
Ever-increasing demands to increase the depth of sensors, targeting, and deep strike systems
Requirements for unmanned aerial vehicles
FOFA attack and AirLand Battle Doctrine focused military planning and weapons development on spatial and temporal dynamics: conceptualizing how to interdict Soviet follow-on-forces located 24, 48, and 72 hours forward from NATO defensive positions; coordinating Army and Air Force Deep Battle and Air Interdiction efforts out to 150 kilometers behind Soviet forward lines (roughly 72 hours from arriving at NATO defensive positions based on Soviet Doctrine); planning Air Force deep strike missions 300 kilometers into Soviet rear areas; and developing technology and doctrine to enable commanders to quickly adapt fire missions and air strikes. FOFA was the first “systems-of-systems” architecture. Nearly 100 current and planned NATO systems were eventually integrated into FOFA attack planning, establishing many of the legacy capabilities in use today.

The Legacy



he first combat testing of the essential conceptual and technological elements of Assault Breaker occurred in the Persian Gulf, not on the plains of Central Europe. During the Gulf War, for example, some thirty-two Army Tactical Missile Systems were used in conjunction with JSTARS. This was the first time that commanders were provided an integrated, near-real time picture of their battlefields that was secure enough to share information from classified sources. Soviet observers viewed the resulting capabilities to be a conventional variant of what they dubbed a theater strategic offensive, with the primary increases in effectiveness coming from a reconnaissance–strike complex.

Assault Breaker, Joint Precision Interdiction, and FOFA programs – all conceived and implemented as part of the Offset Strategy – created the system-of-systems planning and operational constructs broadly labeled reconnaissance, surveillance, and target acquisition (RSTA) capabilities.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by shiv »

Karan M wrote: I wish the same effort were shown towards medical issues though. We would have cured cancer by now.
Karan - that was an unnecessary comment which I wish you had not made because it has no connection with either reality or whatever it is that you are trying to prove. I suspect you might possibly have tried to make a dig at me and my background and if you did I object. You would not be the first person to do that, given my penchant for holding my views on subjects that interest me.

The improvement in cancer detection, prevention and in cure rates from 1960 to 2010 is far more than the improvement in BVR missile capability. Perhaps you are an expert in all this - you should have known. If you did, why the comment

Cancer cures are rejected if they are not seen to work. There is no "argument" and money to be made from sales of things that are not definitely proven to work. If BVR missiles require AWACS to be effective - they are never sold with AWACS to help them work better. That fact is pretty much hidden despite the data. In cancer data is not ignored.

People never support and sell anti cancer therapy claiming that a particular cure for cancer is definitely better without clear data; without trying it at all against cancer in humans, claiming that simulations and tests on rats and guinea pigs is good enough. In the case of BVR missiles claims are being made for their efficacy without an actual combat record. Your cancer comparison is neither accurate nor relevant. Simply added on to an edited post for reasons that are not entirely clear to me

I would suggest that you stick to to the topic of BVR missiles rather than moving the goalpost away into cancer or combat records of aircraft. I have no opinions in this discussion about the combat record of aircraft or about cancer for that matter. If you want to change the subject to aircraft or cancer - that is your prerogative, but my points about BVR missiles remain. I have my own views about why you might want to change the subject from BVR missile efficacy to aircraft or cancer, but a change of subject does nothing to change what I have said about BVR missiles.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by brar_w »

If BVR missiles require AWACS to be effective - they are never sold with AWACS to help them work better.
Here in lies the problem in the argument that PD and others are making if this is indeed one of the conclusions.

Lets assume that for the sake of X vs Y 30km is BVR. X is a fighter with a large AESA radar and Y is another fighter with also a capable radar. The missile has a maximum capability of 30km with high PK for X against Y. X launches the missile and immediately performs an evasive maneuver. Would this engagement have benefited from an AWACS? Absolutely. Would such an engagement required an AWACS for X to execute a BVR shot at 30km? NO. The problem is that one needs to scale this up to a large force deployment scenario. No air-battle happens 2 vs 2 or even 5 vs 5..There are huge blue forces deployed, and there are huge numbers of red forces that can scramble to thwart blue force plans. AWACS is essential to net-centric form of air-combat given both its extremely long range surveilance sensors, and its battle management features. It doesn't make BVR work, it merely allows a commander to execute a coordinated netted, large force deployment and make full use of the kinematic capability of his/her interceptors by allowing the launch platform the Situational Awareness, to put the interceptor in an extremely favorable launch scenario. AWACS aids in net-centric warfare, and at a large force deployment scenario you really can't YET do without an AWACS or something else that performs that battle management role. There will be envelope limitations of launching BVR weapons when you aren't netted, just as there would be envelope restrictions in WVR or gun-fighting if you enter into the merge with an extremely unfavorable set of kinematic, or fuel state thanks to your lack of high quality SA, or your opponent's better SA. Thats just the nature of war - you don't break things down into their individual component -- forces fight the joint fight and not a individual joust.

AWACS/JSTARS aid in all combat and in all missions. Given the importance of lateral separation and altitude in close quarter combat (WVR, weapon on weapon or gun) AWACS would also aid in WVR combat if in a hypothetical scenario fighter X and Y don't have BVR missiles simply because it would allow greater SA that would enable the AWACS operator to position the fighter in a more favorable position, altitude and speed state to be able to get on the opponent's six if that is the objective (that may not be the case anymore given its probably better to go in fast to be able to have the option to disengage if need be).
That fact is pretty much hidden despite the data
Given the above description of how net-centric warfare works, one would ask HIDDEN to WHO?

BTW - There is a non AWACS augmented 114 km BVR kill recorded, as shown in the study you yourself shared.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by NRao »

The reason why the air-forces around the world don't share the same viewpoint as PD and aren't putting his plans into effect is because their success depends upon looking out into the future and having credible offensive and defensive capability amidst a constantly changing environment as far as technology is concerned and how that drives Tactics, Techniques and Procedures.
That, folks, in short, means continuous Market Research, on both sides.

Factor in the funds and time needed to dev, test, debug, etc, and one gets a very good picture of the challenges one faces. This is real not some fictional scenario, one based on real time data, not ancient, biased data.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by NRao »

Cancer cures are rejected if they are not seen to work. There is no "argument" and money to be made from sales of things that are not definitely proven to work. If BVR missiles require AWACS to be effective - they are never sold with AWACS to help them work better. That fact is pretty much hidden despite the data. In cancer data is not ignored.
True of anything.

And the opposite is true too. There are people who but products that claim that it cures cancer.

It applies to def products too.

BTW, please get rid of "AWACS" and replace with "networks". Which is what I had said in my post, giving AWACS as an example as part of a network.

Also, there is a disagreement on your interpretation of the two papers you cite, so let us agree to disagree on those papers.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

shiv wrote:Karan - that was an unnecessary comment which I wish you had not made because it has no connection with either reality or whatever it is that you are trying to prove. I suspect you might possibly have tried to make a dig at me and my background and if you did I object. You would not be the first person to do that, given my penchant for holding my views on subjects that interest me.
At this point, your comments just come across as incredibly misguided. And now you go to the extent that you even conflate a comment made about the general stupidity of chasing after new ways to kill, constantly, thanks to the behavior of the TSPs of the world & the "bring civilization to all types" to some personal dig at yourself.

First, it is incredibly ironic that while you, constantly reiterate the desire to hold whatever opinions he wishes, to go around telling others that what they state have no connection to reality etc.

Or how we perceive the incredible amount of funding that goes into things like nuclear weapons, the longest range hypersonic missile or the greatest and latest bomb & the amount of wastage in the arms race, while basic things humanity needs languish by the wayside.

This after I made a comment stating that I did respect you.
The improvement in cancer detection, prevention and in cure rates from 1960 to 2010 is far more than the improvement in BVR missile capability. Perhaps you are an expert in all this - you should have known. If you did, why the comment
The state of general medicine dealing with a lot of complex diseases remains pathetic.

I made the comment because it would have been far better if instead of spending national resources on the "biggest bomb" which can vaporize islands, more effort had been done to fix things like cancer, which for all its improvement, remains a death sentence in its more complex variations.

I could mention a dozen other diseases and issues which are literally languishing for lack of research & effort.

While things like this (http://www.wsj.com/articles/pentagon-to ... 1445972943) get $80 Billion.

At the same time, it is a utopian ideal which will never come about, because our ancestors (at least in my belief) were equally idealistic & our civilization paid the price.

However, when looking at the numbers casually thrown about X billion$ for this weapon or Y billion$ for that, it does occasionally make you wonder about how much better those resources could have been used elsewhere.
cancer cures are rejected if they are not seen to work. There is no "argument" and money to be made from sales of things that are not definitely proven to work. If BVR missiles require AWACS to be effective - they are never sold with AWACS to help them work better. That fact is pretty much hidden despite the data. In cancer data is not ignored.People never support and sell anti cancer therapy claiming that a particular cure for cancer is definitely better without clear data; without trying it at all against cancer in humans, claiming that simulations and tests on rats and guinea pigs is good enough. In the case of BVR missiles claims are being made for their efficacy without an actual combat record. Your cancer comparison is neither accurate nor relevant. Simply added on to an edited post for reasons that are not entirely clear to me
You seem to be taking a casual mention I made as to some sort of allusion that medicine are somehow less capable than weapons developers, which was never the point.

I'd state that our system is so flawed that everything has its pros and cons and human nature being what it is, has subverted many efforts.

For instance, one could equally point out that the state of the pharma/ medical industry is such that making profit is de facto & which is why India is fighting to retain its ability to make, sell generics. I can even make the point that even so, India has had to compromise.
Their supporters would counter that without that revenue stream, innovation would languish. Which is where those casual $80Bn chunks of change mentioned above, matter. At least in my view.

Both groups of developers follow their own methods, which they perceive as necessary, including simulations & resources are being put in to create devices and methods that may or may not be effective & may or may not result in optimal solutions. Tests on human beings by their very nature are more dragged out and complex than developing weapons.

However, as somebody who saw what "clear data" was used for experimental therapy for a variety of medicine thanks to the failures of conventional medicine to fix things which in turn is tied to how Govts perceive its importance, that stuff about how everything is great one side and bad the other, is not objective.

If you didnt understand about what the issue of resource allocation is, you could have asked.

Its entirely relevant, because you clearly have no interest in the amount of funding that goes into weapons development and how wasteful it can be either.

Its a sunrise industry in a world where making items that would advance humanity languish.
I would suggest that you stick to to the topic of BVR missiles rather than moving the goalpost away into cancer or combat records of aircraft. I have no opinions in this discussion about the combat record of aircraft or about cancer for that matter. If you want to change the subject to aircraft or cancer - that is your prerogative, but my points about BVR missiles remain. I have my own views about why you might want to change the subject from BVR missile efficacy to aircraft or cancer, but a change of subject does nothing to change what I have said about BVR missiles.
You are welcome to your views on BVR missiles and whatever it is that you wish to hold to. At this point its rather clear to me that I am wasting my time.

The rest of the folks who have followed this discussion though, can make up their own minds about how military developments are going ahead & as matter of fact, the IAF roadmap mentioned in the previous page which clearly mentions BVR missiles. I for one am glad that they are objective & are looking into retaining their focus in a tough neighbourhood.

Meanwhile, I will retain my own opinions about the general wastefulness of the arms race even while following the topic of weapons development and neither am I going to not track what the objective data that exists from across the entire spectrum, not just what happened 2-3 decades back.

At any rate, that overall discussion is OT for the thread so I'll stop at this point. The thread title is Indian Military Aviation & at least India is doing what it does, to defend itself, not engage in expeditionary wars 24/7 and hence engaging in new ways to kill people because of that.
Last edited by Karan M on 15 May 2016 20:51, edited 2 times in total.
nirav
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by nirav »

The article did set a cat amongst pigeons. :/
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

But there will be enough people know who have seen what "light fighters" can do with BVR, what the IAF roadmap is, what advances are occurring in WVR etc.

These folks can now go and figure out how IAF constantly tests and develops its systems, how worldwide light fighters became very effective at BVR, how things are progressing to silent networks..

In that, purpose served. Next time around, some chap puts up a blog claiming Tejas can't do BVR, there will be people who may remember this "discussion" and see the objective reality.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by NRao »

nirav wrote:The article did set a cat amongst pigeons. :/
Sharks.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

brar_w wrote:Given the above description of how net-centric warfare works, one would ask HIDDEN to WHO?

BTW - There is a non AWACS augmented 114 km BVR kill recorded, as shown in the study you yourself shared.
As memory serves. the Russians took a very long range BVR shot with the R37 (?) fired by a MiG-31 and guided in by closer Su-30.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2015/4/13/3068/?h

Zaslon-M differs from the original Zaslon radar by its extended antenna, up to 1.4 m in diameter. The detection range of aerial targets has increased to 320 km, and the firing range to 280 km. The onboard radar system of the MiG-31BM can simultaneously track up to ten air targets.

This was the test conducted with the R-37.
Not quite true- the MiG-31M directed the R-37 out to the limits of it's range, the missile was then handed over to an Su-30, which completed the hit. You'd never see the R-37 fired at that range in real combat. For a realistic chance of hitting a maneuvering target, it'd be under half that (~150km). Now picture all 6 being ripple fired at six different targets (or 6 different cruise missiles, the original MiG-31 can do that already but only two at a time- two above the aircraft and two below) and you have an awesome interceptor.
Then of course the BM came.

I stick to my view. Put Multi spectral seekers in long range BVR missiles & the game will again change very drastically in favour of the WCS/Missile combination. Making A2A combat very dicey for 4G platforms.

Which is where the US stealth approach is an elegant one - if you can't acquire the platform at range with x band FCR, you can't fire at it. After all how many L Band Phalcons or multi band Nebo-Ms can one have.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

https://timesofislamabad.com/pm-gives-g ... 016/05/13/
The Prime Minister said that the decision for induction of Air Defence System in Pakistan by CPMIEC would be finalized after receipt of complete proposal from the Chinese side.
Equal equal for S-400?

Could be either KS-1A
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0WJxvr0a1KI/U ... Poster.jpg

Or HQ-9
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by ldev »

^^
Because the S-400 is so mobile, once China receives it from Russia, there is nothing to prevent a temporary deployment from China into Pakistan. Do the Russians have a clause in their supply agreement with China preventing such a deployment? And does it even matter if they do, China will just go ahead and do it to finger India. This would be a black swan event i.e. the IAF facing the S400 on both fronts.

Can the super duper Rafale with it's weapons and sensor suite handle the S400?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

LDev,

I suspect the PRC will not give TSP the HQ-9 or deploy the S-400 into PAF (its their crown jewel and will be used to protect the fatcats in Beijing).
This is the most likely suspect.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/china_ch ... video.html

NGARM can't come fast enough.

Regarding Rafale, I have my doubts that without long range ASCMs & heavy jamming support, any 4G platform can truly handle the S-400 or S-300 PMU2. The capability of Spectra against the guidance radars on S-4/S-3XX is unknown. IMHO, low flying TFR approach, trying to pop up and launch stealthy Scalps (from multiple axis and some will go down to Pantsir protecting the battery) is probably the only reasonable approach with Rafale.

With Su-30, it would be with multi-axis Brahmos strikes.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

To add to your point BTW, this will most likely find its way to TSP sooner or later.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-HQ-9-FD-FT-2000.html
http://www.janes.com/article/58071/chin ... ody-island

Its Chinese made and they can deploy it anywhere they wish, including POK portion ceded to PRC and use it to be a general PITA to IAF in J&K.
If war looms expect a few to head to Islamabad, Karachi & prominent PAF Bases.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Austin »

I always wondered why PAF never invested in decent SAM from China or other sources , instead they are so obsessed with buying F-16 , upgraded mirages and pie in dream like J-10, 20 ... Seems like their top bosses are obsessed with fighter coming from same background as fighter jocks , their fighter force won't stand any chance against IAF and then nothing to defend their bases other then those crotale , if they even want a half decent chance to harress IAF they should invest in mobile adges and Sam even mobile SA-3 and SA-8 will give the opponent something to chew , some one should email PAF AHQ Carlo article on Kosovo conflict to show how effective adges/Sam can be at cost effect price ,....... But no they want the F-16, J-10 and J-20
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

>> some one should email PAF AHQ Carlo article on Kosovo conflict

which side are you on exactly Austin? :mrgreen:

Jokes apart, fighter jock mentality for sure & also, for the same price fighters can be dual tasked - offensive, defensive & relocated far more easily than SAMs.
SAMs can protect AFB but cannot take the fight to enemy (unless real long range types like S-3XX which can reach into opponent territory).
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

We need more ESM platforms for sure, to triangulate and fix emitters - right now we will have 7 with IAF (phalcon+2AEW&C)
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... -400-14515

we won't get the stuff above, so its just an indication of strategy.

Then we need relatively inexpensive, high speed missiles to cluster bomb the targets. perhaps air launched or ground launched 200km prahaars with a wide spread. Many of them. Relying on silver bullets wont work.

however, if the SAM is in a populated area (which TSP being TSP will 100% do), then silver bullets come in.
http://missilethreat.com/missiles/scalp-eg/

no option but to accelerate drdo's missile plans & have them start getting the nirbhays etc out of the door as versus 1-2 tests a year.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by NRao »

I have been posting about how other aspects are equally if not more important. Training, weather, guts/risk, etc.

Found a few on both missiles and CAS. Here is teh latest I found on CAS. Mind you this is for the US and more than likely WILL NOT APPLY for other nations. I really cannot emphasis how much the US is so much different than others - in every aspect. So one needs to factor stuff to this narrative.

Apologies for the formating, will try and correct it, if I can.


BTW, THIS is how you write stuff. Not much left to imagination or read-between-the-lines.

May 30, 2015 :: USAF Eyes New Era Of Close Air Support
In the fall of 2001, when the Pentagon issued what would become the largest development contract ever for a combat aircraft for the Lockheed Martin F-35, the close air support (CAS) mission was not at the forefront.

But timing played a hand; the 9/11 attacks occurred only weeks before that contract was signed and CAS missions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria became common. At that point, the fact that the F-35A would handle CAS in contested environments was a footnote in briefings as the Air Force focused on its virtues as a deep-strike counterpart to the twin-engine F-22, built for air superiority. Now lawmakers are weighing in on how to handle the mission as the Air Force struggles to argue that the A-10 retirement proposal is not a binary A-10 versus F-35 choice. After last year’s failed attempt to retire the A-10, the service is locked in a campaign to “energize” the discussion, says Air Force Chief of Staff Mark Welsh, toward a future CAS fleet including a bevy of fighters and bombers, not just the F-35.

The issue is growing in urgency for the Air Force. In Washington, significant defense spending cuts are being planned as fiscal pressure mounts across the government. And the Air Force has once again offered up the A-10 for retirement, stating there is no longer enough money to keep single-mission aircraft in the fleet.

JTACs train with A-10 pilots on separating friend from foe in air support missions. The A-10’s low-and-slow flying characteristics have made it a visible sign of safety for ground troops locked in firefights. Credit: USAF Airman First Class Chris Massey

Having conducted a summit on the future of CAS with its sister services, the Air Force is now focusing on how to handle the mission without the A-10 or total dominance of the skies.

The Politics

Last year’s attempt to retire the A-10 flopped; Congress agreed to the mothballing of 36 aircraft—a small dent compared to the hoped-for savings. Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James last month approved placing 18 into backup inventory; retiring all 36 would have resulted in the stand-down of an entire squadron. Maintainers supporting those 18 A-10s will be shifted to training for the F-35A ramp up, but many more new maintainers are needed fast to support plans to declare the fighter operational by December 2016.

Resistance is still strong. A vocal A-10 constituency includes some in U.S. ground components who directly benefit from the aircraft’s mission and others in Congress out to protect A-10 bases in their districts. But there are signs of change. Last year Army Chief of Staff Gen. Ray Odierno was a strong proponent of the A-10. But this year Army Secretary John McHugh came out in favor of the retirement. “What the soldier wants to see and what the command structure in the U.S. Army wants to happen [is placing] explosive ordnance on enemy positions . . . in a timely and effective” manner, he told reporters last month.

Image
With 3F software on test jet AF-1, various CAS loadouts with external stores can be flight-tested. Credit: Lockheed Martin

“We know there are some members who just do not agree with this proposal,” James said. “It comes back to ‘if not this, then what?’ Or will you lift sequestration and give us more money?” Keeping the A-10 for fiscal 2016 would cost about $520 million, Welsh told Congress; keeping it through fiscal 2020 would require $4.2 billion. “There are circumstances where you would prefer to have an A-10, but we’ve priced ourselves out of that game.”

The A-10 retirement argument was not helped when Maj. Gen. James Post, vice commander at Air Combat Command (ACC), recently equated A-10 support from officers with treachery: “Anyone who is passing information to Congress about A-10 capabilities is committing treason,” the military blog John Q Public quotes him as saying.

Ever since the controversy broke, the service has been attempting to steer the conversation away from an A-10 versus F-35 debate, hosting two major media events focused solely on CAS. At issue, according to Welsh, is a need to plan for a future beyond A-10. “We’re not trying to reset the message on anything,” the USAF chief of staff avers. “We’re trying to reset the CAS mission for the future, but we’ve been trying to do that for the last two years. This is nothing new.”

Image


The Statistics

From 2006-13, 67% of the CAS missions in Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan and Operation Iraqi Freedom in Iraq have been flown by traditional Pentagon fighters, with 24% handled by the A-10, says USAF Col. Tadd Sholtis, spokesman for U.S. Air Forces Central Command. The A-10 is by no means the sole workhorse CAS aircraft for these missions, although it is a solid contributor.

But it is a symbol—especially for ground troops—of the virtues of CAS, using airpower to save the lives of soldiers engaged in close combat. This is largely because of the A-10’s characteristic cannon, a seven-barrel, 30‑mm Gatling gun, and the ability of its pilots to fly lower and slower to support ground troops—a visible relief in combat. Its companion fighters also have cannons, but they typically fly faster and higher so ground troops might not see them in action as often.

Thus Welsh’s frustrated refrain: “CAS is a mission, not a platform.” He is visibly irritated by the rhetoric from A-10 supporters who assert that USAF has abandoned the mission. “The Air Force isn’t committed to close air support? Well, I’ve got 140,000 data points over the last seven years that prove that is a ridiculous statement,” Welsh says. “That’s how many CAS sorties we’ve flown. About 20,000 a year. When is a little bit of credit given for that?”

The bottom line in talking to pilots who have flown CAS missions since 9/11: CAS is all about the training.

Image

The Training

“You could put us in a Cessna 172 with an AK-47 and we’d go fly CAS,” said one F-15E pilot. Standard procedure, he says, is to have CAS aircraft—not just A-10s—on alert. When a “troops in contact” (meaning friendlies in a firefight need air support) call comes in, entire support crews line up to ensure the sortie takes off quickly, and they salute the pilots as they taxi—a sign of support for the mission to assist soldiers in peril.

In talking with eight pilots at different bases—all of whom performed CAS missions—they universally said that CAS is not about the platform, it is about the training. Ground-based airmen—aka Joint Terminal Attack Controllers (JTAC)—tasked with calling in a strike, agree. “At the end of the day, the tactics are taught to work with any platform,” said one JTAC among the team at Nellis AFB, Nevada, Weapons School who is charged with developing tactics. The JTACs and pilots of various aircraft— F16s, F-15Es, A-10s, B-1s and B-52s—are trained to employ a variety of weapons in myriad weather and topographical conditions. This includes the now widespread use of precision-guided munitions and, when needed, cannons.

The airmen are trained to “check in” with the JTAC when arriving at airspace over troops in contact. The JTAC then requests the needed effect and often specifies which weapon and its yield. Pilots can then set the fuze as needed with the Joint Programmable Fuze employed on service air-launched munitions. Even with the most advanced targeting pods and sensors, JTACs often “talk” a pilot onto a target. In some cases—notably ambushes in mountainous regions or urban conditions—selecting too large a weapon or missing by meters can mean life or death for friendlies. These missions are called “danger close.”

CAS pilots point to the so-called Green Flag exercises, which take place throughout the year at Nellis or Barksdale AFB, Louisiana. Whereas in widely known Red Flags the service trains pilots with increasingly complex air-to-air scenarios, Green Flags incorporate Army ground forces who, together with USAF components, participate in scenarios to hone CAS skills.

The preponderance of focus has recently been on maintaining currency for pilots to conduct CAS in a permissive environment. While A-10 pilots are primarily focused on CAS, the training and tactics focus on the mission for F-15E, F-16 and B-1 pilots has forced other missions for these multirole platforms to take a backseat, pilots say. For many of these pilots at a captain rank, “We’ve known nothing but this war,” so the idea of a high-end fight against a near peer is academic.

More than half of the Air Force’s combat units are not ready to fight the “high-end” fight, USAF Secretary James has told Congress, referring to a shift in focus toward operating in the permissive airspace of Iraq or Afghanistan. Skills for penetrating enemy airspace and attacking the most protected targets have atrophied.

The Technology

Pilots of various platforms agree that the A-10 is purpose-built for CAS. It is designed to provide the pilot a good field of view of the ground; it is optimized to fly low and slow and can carry plenty of precision-guided munitions and cannon rounds. But the rhetoric that “only the A-10 guys can do CAS is mostly bar talk,” says one A-10 pilot. Air Force officials say a variety of weapons are employed in CAS scenarios—from strafing rounds to the 5,000-lb. bunker-buster, and they are dropped from a variety of aircraft (see graph above).

However, the advent of precision-guided munitions has dramatically enhanced CAS accuracy and allowed the mission to be carried out from aircraft flying higher and faster. Most recently, the new 250-lb. Small-Diameter Bomb (SDB) has been employed from the F-15E. Designed as a long-distance glide bomb, it was not optimized for direct attack. However, F-15E pilots developed tactics to alter altitude for the drop, and manufacturer Boeing came up with a fix to reduce glide time when needed.

In some cases, A-10s have been called in to take over air support when fighters are either unavailable or insufficient for the job. In other cases, however, fighters have onboard systems that allow them to fly low, dipping under weather in valleys, to execute a CAS mission.

An F-15E pilot reports a case where soldiers were under fire in a valley in Eastern Afghanistan. “Dropping a bomb in a situation this chaotic was not going to work for them through the weather, [but] we knew how important it was. It is the scariest thing I’ve ever done in an aircraft,” he says. “To say we can’t do it is just wrong; we can. We have systems onboard that allow us to do it, that actually look at the terrain. We have maps that tell us what altitude the terrain should be . . . and then you make the decision to go. . . . We got down, got low, got fast over the target and the enemy broke contact and ran. Often that is sufficient. Once they see us, they run.”

The Air Force calls these “show of force” missions, where merely arriving on the scene repels the enemy. And pilots report the shows of force are now more often driving the enemy back—reducing the need to drop ordnance.

Some USAF officials admit that retiring the A-10 could expose the military to a capability gap, but one that can largely be addressed with tactics employed from other aircraft.

“We could shoebox the best solution to being a platform. But . . . you don’t always have the ability to provide what you want [so] you provide the effect; there is the potential that there would be a gap in capability,” says an A-10 pilot.

But Air Force brass say the bottom line is money—there is not enough to retain a single-mission aircraft. “The A-10 is incredible at CAS . . . but other airplanes are doing the mission,” Air Combat Command chief Gen. Herbert Carlisle told Aviation Week. “Any time you transition an airplane, there is some inherent risk. But we are committed to [CAS] . . . and are using almost every platform we have to do CAS.”

And as USAF aircraft have become more advanced with precision targeting pods and munitions, so have Army and Marine helicopters. The downside of rotorcraft is their lack of speed and range to get to a target when friendly forces are based far forward. They are also susceptible to hostile fire, especially in a contested environment. But they are effective when they can be used; Army AH-64 Apaches and A-10s, for example, have been called in to support troops fighting so-called Islamic State targets.

This is a main thrust behind the Air Force’s push to discuss CAS; officials want to explain that many platforms can provide the muscle needed. And the retirement of the A-10 does not mean the CAS mission will solely fall on the unproven F-35.

The Transition

Chief of Staff Welsh emphasizes that the planned initial operational capability (IOC) for the F-35A by December 2016 is just that—an initial capability. Air Combat Command’s Carlisle is responsible for the declaration, and he is focused on three missions: CAS, air interdiction and limited suppression of enemy air defenses. He acknowledges that the F-35’s CAS abilities then will be “basic.” Suitable munitions at IOC are limited to 500-lb. laser-guided bombs and the 2,000-lb. joint direct attack munition. Pilots will not be able to fully exploit the synthetic aperture radar modes until Block 4 software is in service, years from now, nor will a video link to the ground controllers be available at IOC.

“The basic capability in the airplane we go to IOC with will have some communication capability,” Carlisle says. “We won’t have the Rover [data-sharing system] . . . where they can see the pod [video] and we can talk guys on [to targets] very easily.” He says the assumption is that other platforms can handle the mission while the F-35’s capabilities are ramping up, unless CAS is needed in a contested space.

Already officials at the Weapons School have begun a “CAS investigation” to examine and codify tactics for the F-35 operating in CAS missions, says Lt. Col. Benjamin Bishop, commander of the 422 Test and Evaluation Sqdn. at Nellis. This includes how the F-35 pilot will interact with the JTAC. The findings will be integrated into the aircraft’s tactics manual. CAS was the first of the missions to be worked in part to support Marine Corps IOC, which is slated for July 1. Bishop says that the Air Force’s 3i software-equipped aircraft—those with which IOC will be declared—and 3Fs are a “baseline investment” until the more robust Block 4 is fielded.

“We know that 3i is not going to have all of the weapons, right? We know there will be more weapons and more capability in 3F for the FOC [full operational capability]. So we have to develop the tactics and operationally test the tactics,” says Maj. Gen. Jay Silveria, commander of the Air Warfare Center at Nellis. “We’ll get more capability in 3F and will expand the testing and the tactics development based on those other weapons.”

By contrast, the Marines say their Block 2B F-35s, slated for IOC in July, will offer additional capability over the F-18s and AV-8Bs. “The increased capability due to the aircraft’s sensor suite and improved pilot situational awareness will decrease the time required to employ precision ordnance,” says Maj. Paul Greenberg, a Marine Corps spokesman. “This aircraft will be able to support the ground element in environments which previous aircraft could not” because of its stealthy qualities.

Block 3F will feature improved data fusion, full use of the infrared search-and-track capability, use of the cannon and wider use of the radar. The electro-optical targeting system in the meantime, however, allows for night CAS from the F-35, Silveria says.

Block 4 will further expand those and a variety of munitions, including the 250-lb., all-weather, moving-target SDB II now in development. The F‑35A will be able to employ its cannon when the 3F software is approved, and officials at Edwards AFB, California, expect to begin testing the gun when it is installed on a test aircraft by June.

The Plan

The Air Force is taking a number of steps to transform CAS, not only for permissive airspace but to establish the technology and tactics needed for CAS in contested airspace.

The service hosted a CAS Summit with representatives from its sister services this month to identify a way forward. Chief among the steps ahead is to consolidate CAS aviator experience in the Air Force. Pilots from the A-10 community will be assigned to squadrons of F-16s, F-15Es and, eventually, F-35s focused on that mission. “We want that CAS expertise to go to those squadrons that are dedicated to CAS to keep . . . that culture alive,” Carlisle says. “When we get to the Block 4s of the F-35s, those are going to be great CAS platforms.”

The service is also establishing a CAS Integration Group at Nellis to act as an umbilical cord on training, tactics and technology for the mission. It will include members of the other services as well as ground-based air controllers. USAF is also planning to incorporate live virtual training into the curriculum to boost the number of JTACs available to meet demand. “In 1990, we had 100% of the requirement at 450,” Carlisle says. During the Gulf war, airpower was used to take down defenses and potential airborne threats in Iraq, so CAS was not needed as much. “Today, we have over 1,500 and we’re still not meeting the requirement.” Another option is to use contract aircraft to train more JTACs, he notes.

The CAS Integration Group will also examine how to transfer relevant CAS lessons to operations likely in a contested environment. “If we’re in a contested environment where there’s an ability to fight your way in, to defend yourself in the airspace and still conduct a mission, that’s a higher level of training and it takes a lot of work,” Carlisle says.

Finally, the Air Force is examining ideas for future CAS weapon systems, including, potentially, a dedicated platform. This is only in a study phase, but Carlisle says careful review is needed not for capability as much as potentially fielding extra tails to augment the dwindling numbers of fighters.

“There is a capability requirement for the future threat. There is also a capacity discussion,” Carlisle says. “As . . . you look at the real high-end players and . . . if they get to the capability we anticipate they will get to . . . we have to keep thinking about how we maintain that capacity. . . . There may be an inflection point in the future that says at this point we need more capacity and to get that we have to do it at lower cost.” However, given the threat and budget environment “we are not there yet.”

Meanwhile, Air Force laboratories are continuing to examine a long-held desire to field true “dial-a-yield” weapons, which could provide tailored destructive effects “dialed in” by the pilot to reduce the destructive power or increase it based on scenario. Also hoped for are multirole weapons that can be carried internally in the F-35 to allow for their use in a contested environment. “The other capability that has always been key is either point- or cue-and-shoot. With the A-10 you pull your nose around, we’d like to do that same thing but maybe cue and shoot where . . . you use the helmet-mounted cueing system,” Carlisle says. “We do that for some weapons as well, but we haven’t developed them” for a forward-firing-type CAS environment, he notes.

Beyond this, Welsh says that he wants out-of-the-box thinking on CAS weapons—including such concepts as directed energy to smaller, precision-guided systems. “We should be focused on the next generation of close air support weapons. . . . There are different ways to look at this problem that technology can solve,” he says. “A large number of forward-firing laser-guided rockets [for example]. Is it something that fragments from a rocket into a thousand bullets . . . so you have thousand-round bursts” instead of the [far fewer rounds] “we get out of the gun in the front of an airplane today, [yet] the effect looks exactly the same on the ground?”

Although these ideas are on the table, there is little consensus as to the Air Force’s ability to fund its plans to revamp the mission.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by NRao »

The previous post was about CAS, this is about missiles - both the best I have come across.

I am also posting this article, but with GREAT FEAR that the stats in it could (would?) be (ab)(miss)used. So, please quote it in context (if you can). Thx.

Again it has a US slant, so please take that into consideration in your arguments.

I normally do not highlight anything in an article, this is one of those exceptions:

Jun 15, 2013 :: Air to air weapons effectiveness

Measures of effectiveness

To determine effectiveness of weapons, first we must determine what are measures of that effectiveness. Weapons are designed to kill, and to preferably kill opponent before he can kill you. But opponent wants to do the same thing, so he will try to survive – which means prevent you from killing him, and kill you. Best way to achieve advantage is by surprise; further, weapons should be as resistant to countermeasures as possible.

Historically, engagements were always between flights and squadrons, more rarely entire wings. This means target saturation. It also means that pilot is always in danger of getting killed by somebody even as he tracks the target; resultantly, time required for tracking the enemy should be reduced to minimum. But even side with inferior weapons was able to win if it has superior personnell or superior numbers as Germans have proven in France in 1940 and USSR in 1941/2. But once USSR learned from mistakes, and adjusted both training and tactics correspondingly, its numerical superiority decided the war.

Thus most important aspect of weapon is how it affects user’s skill. Second is how many weapons can be sent to and supported in fight; only third is combat capability of weapon itself. Further, more expensive weapon is not necessarily more effective even when numbers are ignored. More on it here. As for aircraft weapons, their primary function is to kill enemy quickly, reliably and at minimal danger to the user.

Missile effectiveness

AIM-7 Sparrow was thoroughly tested by USAF, and in R&D tests it achieved Pk of 80-90%, with operational tests resulting in Pk of 50-60%. In Vietnam, Pk dropped to 8-10%, with many US pilots firing entire AIM-7 loadout, from visual range and from perfect tail position, only to watch all missiles miss.

AIM-9B achieved 15% Pk, which increased to 19% for USN AIM-9D. USAF used AIM-9E and J which scored Pk of around 20% less than B and D models, 12% – 15% Pk. Soviet copy of AIM-9B missile, Atoll, achieved 12% Pk. Radar-guided missiles fared worse. AIM-7D achieved Pk of 8%, which increased to 10% for AIM-7E. AIM-7E2, introduced in last year of the war to correct AIM-7Es fusing problems, achieved Pk of 8%. Despite having long spin-up time, M61 20 mm rotary cannon achieved Pk of 26%.

Out-of-envelope launches only resulted in 7% of non-kills, and 46% of attempts were failures to launch or guide, compared to 30-37% failure rate of AIM-9.

In Indo-Pakistani war of 1971, Pakistani gun- and Sidewinder- -armed F-86s achieved 6:1 exchange ratio against Indian MiG-21s, Sn-7s and Hunters. Subsonic Folland Gnat, smallest fighter in the world, managed to kill several F-86s without suffering losses.

Immediately after the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, claims were made than 1/3 of Israeli 251 air-to-air kills were due to Sparrow, and that Sparrow achieved Pk of 50%. As it turned out by 1978, only 12 Sparrows were fired, achieving either none or a single kill, with majority of Israeli pilots refusing to carry Sparrow at all. Only 4 of these firings were made from beyond visual range, and a single kill made might have been from beyond average visual range (5 nm) despite the fact that Israel does not claim it as a BVR kill. As many large fighters are visible well beyond 5 nm (up to 15 nm if engine smokes heavily) it is possible that kill in question was a visual-range one. Out of remaining kills, 2/3 were made with IR missiles and 1/3 with guns, according to statistics avaliable; Israelis however credited 2/3 of their air-to-air kills in both wars to guns or to guns aided by initial missile launch. Syrian pilots hated MiG-23 and considered it a worse fighter than MiG-21. Israeli general Hod stated that in 1973 war radar was “essentially useless” and that only one or no kills were made by radar-guided missiles.

In Bekaa Valley in 1982, 8 kills were with guns, 54 with IR missiles and 12 with radar-guided missiles; more than half of kills were made by “multirole” F-16 despite it being primarly tasked with bombing missions. All radar-guided missile kills except one were from visual range. Total of 5 BVR shots were made, making data range very low. It is known however that Syrian pilots were rather incompetent, with Israel winning 73-0 victory. After the war, Israeli General Mordecai Hod had stated that. had Israelis swapped planes with the enemy, outcome would have been the same.

In Falklands war, British have achieved 19 kills in 26 launches, for a Pk of 73%. Harriers themselves saw little fighting after first day, and almost all kills were against bomb-loaded aircraft. Further, Harriers used only IR missiles, majority of which were fired from rear hemisphere, thus achieving surprise. Argentine pilots did not try to outmaneuver missiles – even when they did notice they were being fired at, they used Vietnam war tactics which did not work with all-aspect missiles used by Harriers. At the same time, all Argentine radar-guided BVR Matra missiles missed.

During entire Cold War, only 3 or 4 air-to-air kills were made from beyond visual range out of 60 – 61 shots made at beyond visual range, for Pk of 5 – 6,6 %. All BVR kills were carefully staged outside combat.

Combat results from 1991 and 2003 invasions of Iraq and 1999 war in Yugoslavia are used to prove that AIM-120 can achieve BVR dominance. Yet these are misleading even if actual statistics are true.

Serbian MiG-29s were suffering from lack of spares since 1996, and resources were spent on riot police instead of maintaining aircraft; their pilots were flying 20 hours annually. To put this into perspective, US pilots even at worst of times flew more than 10 hours per month. Systems on MiG-29s were malfunctioning; on most aircraft, neither radar nor RWR functioned. Despite that, some pilots managed to evade several BVR missiles. One MiG-29 shootdown attributed to AIM-120 could also be a case of Serbian SAM engaging in fratricide; that would make AIM-120 performance as 5 kills in 13 launches, a Pk of 0,38.

As for Iraq, situation was similar with its air force in both wars, with pilots usually failling to take any evasive action once radar lock occured. Thus it is logical that USAF success rate would be similar, and it was. In Desert Storm, 41 USAF aerial victories were achieved with anywhere between 5 and 16 kills made at beyond visual range. 2 kills were made with guns, 10 with IR missiles and 24 with radar-guided missiles. 88 AIM-7 shots were made, giving a Pk of 0,27. Out of 24 AIM-7 kills, at least 9 were from visual range. For F-15Cs, 12 AIM-9 launches resulted in 8 kills (Pk 67%), and 67 AIM-7 launches resulted in 23 kills (Pk 34%). It should be noted that F-16s made 36 AIM-9 launches, of which at least 20 were accidental due to poor control stick ergonomy, and made 0 kills. US Navy F-14s and F-18s fired 21 AIM-7s for one kill (Pk 4,8%), and 38 AIM-9s for two kills (Pk 5,3%). As it can be seen, Pk for missiles fired by multirole F-16s and F-18s (0% and 5%) was far lower than that of missiles fired by singlerole F-15s (67% WVRAAM and 34% BVRAAM), suggesting that pilot training is the primary factor in missile performance. Relative Pk of IR WVRAAM and RF BVRAAM fired by air superiority aircraft stayed same as in Vietnam, with IR WVRAAM Pk twice that of RF BVRAAM.

Between Desert Storm and Allied Force, USAF achieved 3 kills with AIM-9 and 3 with AIM-7, with at least one AIM-7 kills being visual range. Further, on Jaunary 5th 1999, two MiG-25s (equipped with radars for a change, which they used to illuminate US fighters) violated southern “no-fly” zone, and succeeded at evading 3 AIM-7, 1 AIM-120 and 2 AIM-54 missiles, all fired by US fighters from beyond visual range.

These results immediately point to AIM-7s operational tests, when it achieved 50% to 60% Pk against non-maneuvering drone targets.

Problem in using radar-guided BVR missiles against capable opponent is that surprise was always one of dominant factors in air-to-air combat. But radar is an active sensor, and thus warns the opponent of one’s presence.

Further, kills have to be made in as short amount of time as possible. Times for launching and guiding weapon that are longer than 3 and 5 seconds become exponentially more lethal to the pilot, and USN TopGun school teaches (or at least taught) that in one-versus-many and many-versus-many engagements one should never pursue the steady state maneuver or same path for more than 7 seconds.

Time from firing opportunity to breakaway is 3 – 6 seconds for gun, 5 – 7 seconds for IR missile and 10 – 15 seconds for radar-guided missile. Radar-guided missile’s time increases if target is maneuvering or using ECM. Missile’s problems, however, are somewhat reduced by off-bore capability, which means that attacking fighter can maneuver while attempting to gain a lock.

Another problem is suceptibility to countermeasures. Already-fired missiles can be evaded by hard maneuvers, and both gun and missile firing solutions can be defeated by maneuvers. IR missiles’ lock on can be defeated by aircraft flying out of seeker’s field of view, whereas with radar guided missiles, it is possible to avoid or break radar lock (“beam turn” and “doppler turn”), as well as prevent or delay radar lock with jamming. For most of these counters, target must be aware that it is being targeted, which makes fully-passive IR missiles inherently superior to radar-guided ones.

But even greater problem than missiles’ relative ineffectiveness is its impact on user’s skill and on number of aircraft that can be put into the air. Aircraft that rely on BVR combat are more complex than dogfighters, which makes them more expensive for same weight as well as less reliable. Fighters with BVR focus are also larger and heavier than WVR fighters, which results in even higher cost and worse dogfighting performance. BVR-centric F-4E cost 3 times as much per flight hour as F-5E, and F-15 costs 4 times as much per flight hour as F-16. Stealth fighters are even worse: F-22 costs 12 times as much per flight hour as JAS-39.

Gun effectiveness

During Six Day war all shootdowns achieved by Israeli were by cannon. It dropped to 70% during Attrition War, 30% during Yom Kippur war, and 7% in Lebanon Interdiction in 1972. During 1982, only 4 shootdowns scored by British fighters were by gun, and US only scored 2 during Desert Storm.

But one should not assume that gun is outdated. During Vietnam war, cannon-armed aircraft performed far better than missile-only aircraft. Of F-105Ds 27,5 kills, only 2 were by missile. Cannon-armed F-8 achieved best kills:loss ratio of all US aircraft in Vietnam, 6:1 as opposed to average score that was 2,15:1 for USAF and 2,75:1 for USN.

In total, F-100 achieved 1 victory with cannon; F-105 achieved 31 victory, of which 3 were by AIM-9 and 28 by cannon. F-4 achieved 156 victories, of which 67 with AIM-7, 70 with AIM-9 and 17 with cannon. F-8 achieved 19 victories, of which 14 were by AIM-9 and 5 with cannon. A-7 achieved 1 victory with cannon. Total is 52 victories with cannon, 87 with AIM-9 and 67 with AIM-7.

In air combat, length of burst is rarely greater than 1 or 1,5 seconds as longer bursts have no application, with standard being 0,5 s. Gattling guns require 0,3 to 0,6 seconds to achieve full rate of fire, while revolver cannons require 0,05 seconds to achieve full rate of fire. Result is that in 0,5 second burst, GIAT-30 achieves 8 MJ of energy, M61A2 ~4,3 MJ, M61A1 ~3,6 MJ, BK-27 ~4,9 MJ, and GAU-12U just above 6 MJ. Combination of heavy and destructive shell, relatively high rate of fire and high muzzle velocity makes GIAT-30 best fighter cannon in the world. Revolver cannons in general are more suited for ACM application than rotary cannons because of ACM requirement of using short bursts while maintaining high rate of fire.
As a FYI:

Comments:
February 3, 2016 at 4:47 am

Hi Picard, where do You have the statistics regarding missile Pk in Iran from, and can You point me to other good resources on the subject (modern missiles only)…?

Me and a friend have an argument to settle so I need Your help, he claim that the “kill all russians button” in the F-35 will do the trick….;-)

Thanks, and an interesting site You got….

Bjarke
Reply

picard578 said
February 7, 2016 at 8:33 am

Unfortunately I don’t really write down my sources, so I don’t remember where those statistics come from. Regarding your second question, there are some documents and articles in the “links” section of the site. I’d recommend looking for Promise and Reality: Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Air-To-Air Combat by Patrick Highby and RANDs Pacific View Air Combat 2008 briefing first. Most other sources are quite a bit older.
Reply
Bjarke Strøm said
March 2, 2016 at 12:59 am

Thanks a lot….
Bjarke Strøm said
March 2, 2016 at 1:12 am

I can´t see the RAND in the links, am I wrong….?
picard578 said
March 2, 2016 at 6:45 am

I think I didn’t put it in the links…
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/fil ... iefing.pdf
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

There are a lot of issues with the above article. For instance, it mentions that AIM-7s were tested, but sent to Vietnam and flopped. Then he glibly states he doesn't write down sources. Great. Well if he had, he'd note that early AIMs suffered from being insufficiently soldier proof, an euphemism from vendors about how harsh wartime handling can be. In the Ethiopean and Eritrean war too, Ukrainian and Russian mercs faced off and the AA-10 suffered from improper handling.

Over time, these issues have been resolved to a degree, especially by the US which tends to go into wars every other evening. Even as we speak some US aircraft is flying someplace playing global cop. That's the adage of the "war proven" crap. Which basically means that when folks buy from them, it has been flown and used extensively to send some goat herder in Afghanistan to wonder why a $2Mn LGB fell on his $5 mud hut. But hey, that same thing allows the US to sell "proven" bombs to Saudis to bomb the heck out of them pesky Houthis.

Ok, the next thing he states is BVR does not necessarily work because radars get detected. The answer is not that straightforward. Radars - fire control ones - usually work in a variety of modes but for the purposes of firing missiles, there are two of interest. high grade tracking & second, track while scan. Earlier, the only way to get reliable information to guide your SARH missiles in (AIM-7, AA-10, Super530D) was to switch to high grade track. What this does is signal the RWR that its getting painted regularly. The opponent will hear a screech or a constant tone in his headsets telling him he has been locked on, and will deploy countermeasures & promptly engage in defensive maneuvering.

Defensive maneuvering is a BIG DEAL for BVR or any missile. There is only so much energy that they carry (in terms of onboard fuel) and when fired at long ranges, constant changes in heading & speed of the target can constantly reduce the end game energy available to the missile. When its motor burns out, its basically coasting (converting PE to KE) - ramjet meteors & dual pulse missiles get around that, but they are still rare.
So at range, you have a chance to escape.

What further makes things dicey for BVR missiles is that their onboard seeker runs on battery power. It can only run so many algorithms put out so much power. The onboard fighter jammer can seduce it, or decoy it.

Now, this is what happened. The fighter radar makers and missile makers worked together to develop active homers. While seeker limitations remain, the missile can now be launched in the general direction of the target with the radar directing it using track while scan mode itself. So your opponent no longer gets the screech tone he would have got earlier when he knew you had locked on him.

The missile goes active much later when its seeker uncages & finds the target, limiting the amount of time you have to deploy chaff & turn on your SPJ.

At the same time, the fighter guys would counter by turning on their SPJ moment they detect opponent radar emissions. At the same time missiles have started getting a home on jam mode - these are classified, whether deception jamming or noise jamming is employed, the level of accuracy etc. The list goes on and on.

Similarly, to befuddle your opponent, you can fire both RF and IIR AAMs together - the Rafale can do this. So can ASRAAM equipped fighters (its long range). Your opponent is busy putting out chaff & SPJ, but the 2nd missile gets him.

As you can see things have started getting complicated very very fast.

Some approaches: #1 and #2, #3

#1
Enter datalinks.

Now as you can make out from all the above, you have one fundamental aim.

You want to fire at your opponent without him detecting you. You want him to deploy countermeasures as late as possible. You want to get a high Pk. Datalinks allow you to do that.

Your fighter 1 detects the target, fighter two fires on it having snuck up from an aspect that maximizes target RCS or is well within your missiles NEZ (wherein even if countermeasures are deployed, it might still get hit).

Fighter 1 fires the missile. AWACS guides it in. AFAIK nobody is doing this at present, but who else, the US with Navy cooperative targeting, they will even use SAMs this way.

IRST can help you here too. Get cue from AWACS. Get your fix from IRST and ESM. Launch on bearing.

#2
You maximize your radar & AAM reach. Say AESA and long range missiles. Multi spectral seekers.
You fire mixes of missiles at the target of different types - again, with or without getting in close using datalinks.
Just overwhelm the opponent and either force him out of the fight (mission kill) or your systems are so advanced he can't counter them.

Even better if you have assets like Growlers or your own large reach jammers to force the other side to work harder to figure out what's going on.

#3

Ambushes. You deliberately use some "exposed fighters" to draw in a formation & then promptly attack them from off axis zones with larger number of fighters.

The Israelis were famous for this in the Arab Israeli wars.
The RAF pulled some famous ones on the F-15s with AWACS & F3 combinations.

The number of methods above can be huge - point is to have as many tools in the toolbox.

In the case of the IAF, my priorities for the BVR battle would be:

1. Long range AAMs to take out opposing long reach "eyes" - RVVBD, Meteor etc. If you take out AWACs on the other side, your freedom of action increases manifold.

2. SPJs & state of art defensive aids on all our fighters. These need to be more than just basic SPJs but proper ESM which can provide bearing, and even range if possible (via triangulation).

3. Constant testing & advancement of our fighter systems - we need to have radars that cannot be detected (this means LPI) or jammed (deception jammed that is). And should be high power enough that noise jamming does not work. This means AESA purchase or iterative improvement as we did on Su-30MKIs to at least get the basics fixed.

4. ODL program needs to be broadbased & deployed fleet wide with network targeting. This will make a huge difference. Invest in upgrading IRSTs & ESM & datalinks together (point 9 is also about sensor fused information).

5. Large numbers of missile rounds in the medium weight class - Astras etc. The number of missiles/target is not going to be 1:1. You might have to fire 2 per difficult targets.

6. Reliability assessments. One of the huge things that made a difference to the US is a team visiting all AFB and periodically assessing state of infra and working gear. All the fancy tech in the world won't help if one widget is gone.

7.Start working on multi spectral long range missiles. You have AA-10s. How much effort would it take for DRDO or some pvt firm to work on adding a datalink to them for true BVR? Use the Astra tech.

8. Simulation work at DRDO, BEL, IISc etc for optimal engagement geometries and weapons employment zones of various weapons assuming degradation thanks to EW, missile failure rates etc. Keep security paramount and even deploy Garuds if necessary to protect the data, but do it. Validate using exercises.

9. Work with DRDO, IAI etc to ensure Phalcons, AEW&C generate high fidelity weapons grade tracks. Cueing this to shooters over datalinks will make a huge difference.

I am fairly certain IAF is doing a bunch of the above, for obvious reasons, we shouldn't discuss that. But stuff like 7- seriously, work with Ukraine or Israel for a solution. Our long term future can be Astra variants. But for now, get silver bullets in.

WVR fight is a whole another mess. But one we'll get into if the BVR one misses.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

Note above is all about maximizing current IAF fleet. LO/VLO silver bullets like F-35, FGFA will make things much easier for the IAF. But looking at the Rafale fracas..
In fact, despite the risk of sanctions etc, I'd still go with some 3 squadrons of F-35s if I could. They'd make a big difference. And also the FGFA & AMCA over time. The Rafale is combat proven & its sensor fusion will be a huge help but again, the mature F-35 will have most of that.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

Some real interesting info from the Danish evaluation of JSF.

AI - ie contested airspace is where stealth dominates.

Air Interdiction and S/DEAD missions, Strike, Coordination and Reconnaissance (SCAR) missions

Mission type Scenario description
NTISR
Non-Traditional Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (NTISR): to overvåge a sea area for illegal fishing or pollution of the environment, as well as to assist in a rescue mission aimed at ships in distress.
SCAR
Strike, Coordination and Reconnaissance (SCAR): identify and engage hostile activity, while accidental damage is minimized.
This type of mission is known from the Danish F-16 fighter participating in missions in LAdditionally, in 2011.
CAS
Close Air Support (CAS):
mainly in urban warfare with enemy forces. This type of mission is known from the Danish F-16 fighter participating in missions in Afghanistan in 2002-2003 and in Iraq in 2014-2015.
DCA
Defensive Counter Air (DCA): This mission type is known from the Danish F-16 fighter participating in missions in the Balkans during the period 1998-2001.
AI
Air Interdiction (AI): protected by both ground-based missile defence systems and of fighter aircraft. This type of mission is known from the Danish F-16 fighter participating in missions in the Balkans in 1998-2001, in Libya in 2011 as well as in Iraq in 2014-2015.
S/DEAD
Suppression/Destruction of Enemy Air Defences (S/DEAD):prepared missile defence systems in hostile territory, which is also protected by fighter planes.


F-16.net
Figure 3.4 Grading the candidate mission effectiveness in relation to mission type and level of mission intensity
Image

Figur 3.3 shows survivability rating:
Image
Air Interdiction-scenariet:

Air Order Of Battle:

– Six SU-30MK. Four aircraft are expected to be airborne. The remaining two aircraft are on “ready state 15” at the Echo Zulu air base. The aircraft are armed with four AA-11 infrared air-to-air missiles, four PL-12 active radar missiles, SAP-518 self-protection jammer pods.

– Six MiG-29 SMT. All aircraft can be expected on “ready state 30” at Echo Zulu air base. The aircraft are armed with: Four AA-11 infrared air-to-air missiles, four PL-12 active radar missiles, Gardenia jammer pod.

Missile Order Of Battle:

Radio-frequency seeking SAMs:

– Unknown number of SA-8. The SA-8s are expected to be widely distributed and are unlocated throughout the adversary territory.

– Three SA-10. Accurate locations are unknown.

– Four SA-11. Accurate locations are unknown.

– Unknown number of SA-15. The SA-15s are expected to be widely distributed and are unlocated throughout the adversary territory.

Infrared seeking SAMs:

– Unknown number of SA-14,

– Unknown number of SA-18,

– Unknown number of SA-24.

The Infrared seeking SAMs are expected to be widely distributed and are unlocated throughout the adversary territory.
Image
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

Freaking report has huge portions which are redacted. I would have luvved to see the figures they put up for Su-30MK with SAP-518 and PL-12!(tacit admission that PRC missile>>older RVV-AE).
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by ldev »

^^
So in the Danish evaluation the F35 has the highest survivability as well as the best interdiction score, just what the IAF will face vs the PLAAF and/or the PAF combined. Against the indicated mix of 6 x SU30MKs and 6 x Mig 29s in the evaluation, just how many of each of the evaluated fighters opposed the SU30MK/MIG29? Were they also 6 or some other number?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

I couldn't find that. :-(
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by ldev »

^^
One of the posts further down in that thread, extracted from the evaluation:
Procurement cost per aircraft:
F-35: 84 million
Typhoon: 127 million
Super Hornet: 125 million

Sustainment costs per aircraft:
F-35: 136 million
Typhoon: 165 million
Super Hornet: 108 million

Total costs per aircrat:
F-35: 221 million
EF Typhoon: 291 million
Super Hornet: 233 million
Maybe other costs were included and so the final F-35 indicated cost was $115 million in the news reports.

And the link for the full evaluation, unfortunately in Danish :(

http://www.fmn.dk/temaer/kampfly/Docume ... 160509.pdf
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Karan M »

The procurement costs are controversial with a huge fisticuff over how they were calculated. IMO, all those figures will be AF specific. Plus anyhow for us, we'll have to put tons more in base infra and what not. Danish AF will probably leverage off of Euro partners.

IMHO unless we are planning to get the F-35, we have to jump into the FGFA both feet in & also accelerate the AMCA (get that LCA done stat, Mk1A, Mk2 etc).

I am just restating the same things.. our lack of own PGMs (hopefully rectified within the next few years), and the increasing proliferation of Long Range SAMs is worrisome. At least the 200 odd Brahmos we got will give us some capability.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by shiv »

Both good articles thanks. Just pointing out that those who actually read articles will read them from links even if you don't post the entire article with outsize images on the forum. Those who don't read will not read either way.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by shiv »

But even greater problem than missiles’ relative ineffectiveness is its impact on user’s skill and on number of aircraft that can be put into the air. Aircraft that rely on BVR combat are more complex than dogfighters, which makes them more expensive for same weight as well as less reliable. Fighters with BVR focus are also larger and heavier than WVR fighters, which results in even higher cost and worse dogfighting performance. BVR-centric F-4E cost 3 times as much per flight hour as F-5E, and F-15 costs 4 times as much per flight hour as F-16. Stealth fighters are even worse: F-22 costs 12 times as much per flight hour as JAS-39.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by srai »

shiv wrote:
Both good articles thanks. Just pointing out that those who actually read articles will read them from links even if you don't post the entire article with outsize images on the forum. Those who don't read will not read either way.
I do like articles posted in full or at the minimum important highlights with images on the forum thread itself. Good for reading flow (and quick skimming) without having to jump to different websites. Makes forum search better too.
Last edited by srai on 16 May 2016 06:38, edited 1 time in total.
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