Indian Education System

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Arjun
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Arjun »

Bade wrote:Who is talking of lowering IIT standards. Your deduction of who is an IITian and not makes even less sense than what Sibal is attempting.

So how do you increase standards by filling up IITs with heavily coached students ? Bizzare to say the least !
Please read this on why the proposal reduces IIT entrance standards, and on the likelihood of eliminating Kota: Sibal drives another nail in the coffin of IIT autonomy
According to Murthy, most of the IIT governing councils should come from past alumni. “Nobody is bothered about an institution more than its alumni. We must somehow persuade the government of India to let go of its control and make sure a majority of the council members is the IIT alumni.”
Just wanted to check if your views were on the basis of being an alumnus.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

Sorry but who is an alumnus in your opinion and how is that important ? All the alumnus of IITs are not through the JEE system alone. So there will be varied opinions on this if you ask all of them.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

Mort Walker wrote:What I'm seeing is that the top students are going for IIT-JEE or PMT exams and the basic sciences of physics, chemistry, and mathematics are getting 2nd or 3rd rate students. Engineering and medicine without advancement/research in the basic sciences is a disaster. It may explain why India can not progress on its heavy lift boosters and high speed jet turbine.
Mort you may have seen many already who do go the sciences way, yes even those who rank at the top in JEE. There was always a significant number during old days who eventually migrated to the sciences from engg as they progressed along, post BTech and some are doing fine following their career choices, though none have made big splashes at the Nobel level yet which is disappointing. But there a few Bhatnagar fellows.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Arjun »

Bade wrote:2) How exactly is the diverse grading/marking of various boards going to be used, as a threshold cut after sufficient weights added to make it more uniform or in the ranking itself. I would have objections to using it for final ranks to make it less biased, but no harm in using it for filtering initially.
I was under the impression the board results would be used as part of ranking, which would have been pathetic....but looks like the revised proposal at the IIT is for filtering, which should not be that bad.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

The government continues to interfere with how the IITs are run, not only by lowering entry standards, but also by legislating expansion without the necessary investment in quality faculty and research facilities. The net result: a steady deterioration in the quality of IIT end-products, too. Not to speak of engineering education in general.

As Infosys founder NR Narayana Murthy lamented some time ago, the top 20 percent of IIT students “can stand among the best anywhere in the world,” but the quality of the remaining 80 percent is variable – from average to pathetic.
From the same link posted by Arjun. This is alarming if the old ways of admission criteria does not really do a good job already. So it takes the wind out of the JEE, with heavy coaching actually diluting standards even more than what the proposed changes will or will not do, which remains to be seen.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

If the IITs seek true autonomy the way to go is to start on setting up endowment funds from alumni and others. Once a large corpus is built up then it can severe ties to govt dole and go its way. But then it will have to pay up for all past gifts too to the tax payer, which will make it non-viable.

How much have the alumni contributed financially to their alma mater. The numbers are not that encouraging either. Some have not met their targets by a large margin. A simple example was $1000 per alumni (small amount really) would add up to $30-40 million for just one IIT. But no one wants to pay up to use the brand value in their lifetimes.

In the current scenario a truly autonomous institute will have to be a 100% greenfield IIT setup entirely with private money.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Rahul M »

Arjun, the IITK student whose blog is linked above explains quite clearly that using the boards and a half-assed mains exam to shortlist candidates would also be meaningless. because only those who get 90% + in their boards will get through. as you know, many students who crack JEE are not the same who get 98.99% in boards.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by SriKumar »

Arjun wrote: Presumably you are not from the IITs - but this move will .........
A request, please try and conduct your argument without worrying about where you think some poster has done her education. If your argument is fact-based and has a sound basis, it can and will stand on its own merits; and that is all one looks for, in an objective debate/discussion.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Vayutuvan »

SriKumar wrote:If your argument is fact-based and has a sound basis, it can and will stand on its own merits; and that is all one looks for, in an objective debate/discussion.
+1. Heartily agree with this sentiment. Everybody and anybody who has paid/paying taxes in India has a say in this matter.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Arjun »

It matters quite significantly whether views are based on having been through the whole JEE / IIT UG personally or not. One reason why NRN (quoted above) wants the matter to be decided based on alumnii opinion.

At the UG level, brand IIT is ONLY about the quality of students that graduate. Research output comes in as a criteria only at the PG and faculty levels.

At the end of the day, the JEE mystique is all about it being one of the toughest analytical thinking examinations anywhere in the world...which is the prime attraction for the top tier of most analytical + most driven in the country to make it their ultimate goal for several years. Any tinkering needs to be really thought through - else will be viewed as blasphemy by most alumnii.

Folks more comfortable with the 'rote' system of the Indian boards will definitely not get far at the JEE - whatever be the number of years spent in coaching centers.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by kasthuri »

Mort Walker wrote:What I'm seeing is that the top students are going for IIT-JEE or PMT exams and the basic sciences of physics, chemistry, and mathematics are getting 2nd or 3rd rate students.
I completely object. Conversely,we tend to brand students as *top* if they get into IIT. This is a very pathetic state. The interest is not sufficiently cultivated at the high school to pursue basic sciences.
Engineering and medicine without advancement/research in the basic sciences is a disaster. It may explain why India can not progress on its heavy lift boosters and high speed jet turbine.
I agree. Same holds in biology/translational medicine where one can clearly see the disaster - much more than space science/rocketry.

IIT's were envisioned to be engineering institutes. Nehru wanted India to be self-sufficient in engineering and to this extent, it has performed modestly well. Goals have been met to a decent level. ISRO is a good example. Where he (and other authorities) did a critical mistake is not understanding how engineering/medicine and sciences are inseparable. And to be a leader in engineering/medicine, scientific solutions are necessary. US is a leader because it is the science powerhouse that fuels engineering. We cannot expect IIT's to become research institutes. They are simply not designed for that and this is going to be the case for decades to come. So, lets forget IIT's and move on...
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by kasthuri »

Arjun wrote:At the end of the day, the JEE mystique is all about it being one of the toughest analytical thinking examinations anywhere in the world...which is the prime attraction for the top tier of most analytical + most driven in the country to make it their ultimate goal for several years. Any tinkering needs to be really thought through - else will be viewed as blasphemy by most alumnii.

Folks more comfortable with the 'rote' system of the Indian boards will definitely not get far at the JEE - whatever be the number of years spent in coaching centers.
One of the unfortunate things we hold is the thought that a quick analytical brain is the one that is best striving for. While this may be required for engineering, a brain that can understand things in a holistic and integrated fashion is what that is required to pursue science. The problem is often times these two are complementary!
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Vayutuvan »

Arjun ji
what analytical thinking if JEE can be cracked by studying for the test at a Kota insti?
regards
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Arjun »

matrimc wrote:Arjun ji
what analytical thinking if JEE can be cracked by studying for the test at a Kota insti?
regards
Matrimc ji,

Lets consider several facts-

1. ANY key examination anywhere in the world will attract coaching centers specializing in that test. There are 'prep' schools in the US for SAT, GRE, Ivy league entrances et al.. See this article about a prep school in Korea for Ivy League entrance to the US: Prep schools consume Korean students' lives in Ivy League quest. How different do you think that is from a Kota ?

2. I had an extremely healthy distaste myself for the concept of coaching centers, when I was preparing for the JEE (many eons back). But as in ANY field - whether athletics or music or any branch of academics - everyone gets better the more they practice. So what you do need for mastery at the JEE is to continually challenge yourself with problems of increasing difficulty, and you need some source just to keep throwing these at you. This requirement cannot be met by the regular school system in any country.

3. If you don't have fairly high analytical aptitude to begin with - no amount of coaching will help you get a good rank. But if you have the aptitude - continual practice can certainly increase your ranking. This is the same as in any field of endeavor.

4. All of what I state applies to the top 1000 or so JEE ranks. There is no doubt that this set represents the best in analytical problem solving in PCM in the country...The IIT intake has increased dramatically over the last several years which changes things. Maybe one solution is that if performance is below a certain percentile on JEE, then other factors such as school performance /other types of tests may need to be evaluated.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by SriKumar »

Arjun wrote:It matters quite significantly whether views are based on having been through the whole JEE / IIT UG personally or not. One reason why NRN (quoted above) wants the matter to be decided based on alumnii opinion.
This method of exclusion in the debate is a bit bothersome.... that the opinions/decisions should be limited to ones who have been through that experience, but under some circumstances that is a fair point. Walk the walk and go fully autonomous and not depend on govt. grants...in this case, one can fairly exclude others from the debate. 50+ years is plenty time, one would think.
At the end of the day, the JEE mystique is all about it being one of the toughest analytical thinking examinations anywhere in the world...which is the prime attraction for the top tier of most analytical + most driven in the country to make it their ultimate goal for several years.
This JEE 'mystique' is an artificial construct that comes about through limiting certain parameters, like publishing only some ranks (and not have a longer list- even though the JEE is conducted using public funds), not publishing absolute marks (I vaguely recall some court order that now forces the JEE committee to release marks?) and the answer sets (this too may have changed). The funny thing is that it required a court order. Evidently some within the system believe that this mystique needs a cover of darkness to survive. Bottomline: When one starts talking about mystique and technical education, I get a little suspicious. One could make a case for 'Mystique' and 'branding' when selling toothpaste, mouthwash or MBA degrees.....and there, I fully agree that the job of a companywalla is to maximize his profits at any cost (within legal bounds of course). If it means creating a mystique for a product through advertizing or shortages, that is fine. The company owns the product fair and square.
Last edited by SriKumar on 23 Jun 2012 18:38, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by RamaY »

nsriram wrote:A current IIT-K undergraduate provides an incisive analysis of the MHRD proposal and the realities on the ground (as of today, IITK and IITD are set to go their own way)

http://goo.gl/6Yxgu (part 1) , http://goo.gl/zWEHd (part 2), and http://goo.gl/d48qV (part 3)
This is the most rediculous argument I have heard. Meets my assessment of IITians that I formed after working with >100 IITians in different fields, roles etc. Shows the intellectual and social bankruptcy of our youth.

I tried to post some questions on his blog, but couldnt do in my iPadme.

1. Assuming a student has complete grasp on a concept and can answer creative questions on it, especially in the fields of Maths, physics and chemistry, why cannot he understand a simple board question which asks dumb questions like "explain Tanmay's photo-electric effect."?

2. Why don't we see a single private IIT (or a private university at that level) in India even after 60 years of independence? Why don't we see these exceptional coaching centers,  which offer excellent +2 education, open private engineering colleges for the people who can pay the fees and are interested in physics at the tender age of 8-10?

3. Why should Govt of India give any value to the fortunes of coaching centers, rightly or wrongly, when it's primary responsibility is to offer "equal opportunity" for all it's citizens? Why should it spend significant amounts of national money to the benefit of few? 
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by kasthuri »

^^^ RamaY ji,

Good points. I read the above article by the IIT student, and it is only funny. If someone is good in math/chem/phy and they have the grasp of the concepts, they should probably study science and not engineering. He is surely misguided!
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Arjun »

SriKumar wrote:This method of exclusion in the debate is a bit bothersome.... that the opinions/decisions should be limited to ones who have been through that experience, but under some circumstances that is a fair point. Walk the walk and go fully autonomous and not depend on govt. grants...in this case, one can fairly exclude others from the debate. 50+ years is plenty time, one would think.
No intention to exclude anyone from the debate. Just that someone who's been through the system would understand the drivers that compel talent across India to aim for the JEE.

Happy to understand what your take is regarding objective for the IIT UG program, and how the JEE should be conducted.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Rahul M »

kasthuri wrote:^^^ RamaY ji,

Good points. I read the above article by the IIT student, and it is only funny. If someone is good in math/chem/phy and they have the grasp of the concepts, they should probably study science and not engineering. He is surely misguided!
he IS studying science. he is a student at integrated MSc physics at IITK.

and just FYI admissions at IISER undergraduate courses is also done on the basis of JEE list.

I'm not a product of eye eye tees (I hated chemistry too much to clear JEE) but I agree with him completely. the coaching centres do not give anyone an unfair advantage, not unless they already have the spark and ability to work hard.
1. Assuming a student has complete grasp on a concept and can answer creative questions on it, especially in the fields of Maths, physics and chemistry, why cannot he understand a simple board question which asks dumb questions like "explain Tanmay's photo-electric effect."?
when have you last sat for a board exam ? you are expected to memorise and regurgitate paragraphs upon paragraphs from text book. they do not test understanding of science, they test memory. other than CBSE other boards do not even have numericals in questions (other than the formulaic fill in the blanks type) !

and they are going to select students who are eligible to appear for the JEE advanced on the basis of board results
! IOW all those who are not good at blindly mugging up stuff are going to be eliminated. this is a disaster !

right now we have one system that more or less works (JEE) and one that does not (school boards). consequently there is little correlation between the results of the two.
now, in stead of improving the broken system sibal is trying to break the one that works to bring it at par.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by RamaY »

^ the problem is multi-dimensional and not simple as this kid tries to present..

I read all the three parts of his blog and figured out that he is doing Msc phizziks. I would like to know what he will do in life (asked that question on his blog). Let us see.

1. So you are telling me that there are million+ ways to explain a scientific/math concept/theory and a student who is too good with concepts and their application cannot answer them properly. Following are few questions from UP board Phzziks exam 2012.
http://entrance-exam.net/forum/attachme ... aper-1.pdf
1. On reversing the telescope the images become too small. Why?
2. Write any two characteristics of Michelsons method?
3. Seeback effect is the Reciprocal of Peltier effect. Explain.
4. Draw a Labelled diagram of laboratory method for determination of speed of light.
2. Is JEE working now? What is the quality of the jEE rankers? What is their success rate?
What is their success rate (in science, industry and in life) when weighted for the social investment on them (compare the investment of an IIT with SDRE engg school).

3. If the recommendation is to make the quality of board exams, same as JeE; and the teaching levels of board colleges to coaching centers, is it possible? Are we saying some teachers are better than others and some students are better than others then what value addition a school is supposed to give?

What happens when
A good student gets a good teacher
A good student gets a bad teacher
A bad student gets a good teacher
A bad student gets a bad teacher

So what is the success measure? Getting a rank in IIT JEE?

***

Just because Sibal is stupid, anyone who disagrees with him, in this case an equally stupid IIT Msc Phizziks student/grad, need not be automatically wise/correct.

My comment is that if a chi-chi IIT alumni comes with this level of paki-intellectual counter argument, I wonder if we should trust the IIT system at all... (this is where apparently a good student got a good teacher in a good institution) :roll:
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Raja Bose »

Arjun wrote: At the end of the day, the JEE mystique is all about it being one of the toughest analytical thinking examinations anywhere in the world...which is the prime attraction for the top tier of most analytical + most driven in the country to make it their ultimate goal for several years.
While I dont support whatever latest BS scheme Sibal is peddling for votebank politics, this whole mystique business is a bit paki. And the bolded statement above underlines something I have been against for a long long time namely, the misguided habit of considering exams such as these to be the end-all-be-all as if being successful in clearing an arbitrary exam makes someone well qualified to innovate and be creative in the real world. Its like comparing a sprint with a marathon.

On another note, in my sample size of IIT alumni I have interviewed over the years (all have pee-chaddis from good massa universities and BTech from CS/EE from one of the original 5 IITs), the average quality of the more recent alumni is no better than a similar recent grad from a non-IIT engg college, in some cases it was noticeably worse - this did not hold true with the older alumni set. So I am not sure if that analytical thinking exam you speak of is doing its job properly today in filtering in the right kind of talent.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Vayutuvan »

Arjun wrote:Happy to understand what your take is regarding objective for the IIT UG program, and how
the JEE should be conducted.
Arjun ji, I am not Srikumar but let me take a shot.

First have an exam that tests the fundamentals of board level PCM and other subjects, since IITs are instituting Humanities (and commerce?) as well. Let all the people who have written the first test write the tougher JEE as well. Take a weighted average of the two and those people who make the cut need to go through an interview and also need to write two essays - one technical similar to SOP which needs to be in English (as the medium instruction is English) and the other on some general topic of their interest not necessarily in English. There should be an admission committee headed by a faculty member, an IAS officer and members drawn from the IIT student body. Since IIT students are involved in the final decision making process, they will make sure that there are no lowering of standards. Also, have the candidates interviewed by the students who came from the same board.

The logistics is going to be a she dog, but we do conduct world's largest elections, so this should not be all that difficult.

Regards
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Rahul M »

RamaY wrote:^ the problem is multi-dimensional and not simple as this kid tries to present..

on the contrary I found his arguments quite well nuanced and addressing multiple concerns. hardly simplistic. I suggest you read it again.

I read all the three parts of his blog and figured out that he is doing Msc phizziks. I would like to know what he will do in life (asked that question on his blog). Let us see.

going by his blog, I am 99% sure he will opt for a phd at the very least.


1. So you are telling me that there are million+ ways to explain a scientific/math concept/theory
really ? I said that ? :roll: where ? do point out.


a student who is too good with concepts and their application cannot answer them properly.

define 'properly'. he (or she) will definitely be able to give a decent science answer. but the highest marks will go to those who are able to reproduce the 'model answers' from text books in toto, complete with cute pencil drawn diagrams, possibly highlighted with multiple coloured pens ; with OR WITHOUT understanding. :rotfl: all these are things that have NOTHING to do with science or thinking.
and remember, only those who get the highest marks in board exams will be eligible to sit for IIT. so bye-bye thinking students, hello rote learners.

anecdote : a girl in my school used to score 90+ in +2 maths by memorising the problems. but she couldn't do a problem if we changed the figures. yet she scored highly in the boards. at that time there was no way in hell someone like her would clear IITjEE or even WBJEE for that matter.
if sibal's proposals come through, people like her would be the ONLY ones eligible to sit for IIT ! :shock: that's a frightening scenario.


Following are few questions from UP board Phzziks exam 2012.
http://entrance-exam.net/forum/attachme ... aper-1.pdf
1. On reversing the telescope the images become too small. Why?
2. Write any two characteristics of Michelsons method?
3. Seeback effect is the Reciprocal of Peltier effect. Explain.
4. Draw a Labelled diagram of laboratory method for determination of speed of light.
thank you for making my point. :lol:

4 questions, 0 numericals. I am willing to bet a thousand rupees that these questions are repeated every alternate year or so and you would find numerous textbooks that contain "model answers" that are memorised every year by thousands of students, most without understanding.
this again, is NOT science.

there's a saying that runs something like 'violinists become violinists by playing the violin and physicists becomes physicists by doing problems'. memorising definitions and theorems does not create scientists, doing problems does. I don't know how it is now but I learnt far more about physics and maths from trying to solve problems than I did by rote-learning passages for the board exam.



2. Is JEE working now? What is the quality of the jEE rankers? What is their success rate?
What is their success rate (in science, industry and in life) when weighted for the social investment on them (compare the investment of an IIT with SDRE engg school).

more or less yes.
quite high, at least until JEE was diluted to an MCQ only exam few years back, which I think is a retrograde step.
define success rate. success rate in what ? as compared to what ?
you are very badly confusing issues here. JEE is about selecting the most capable students.
investment on them etc are issues that come later and have nothing to do with this discussion.
btw, I think the IIT system has been reasonably successful in creating entrepreneur & engineers but not that many researchers in engineering. and yes, the IIT system has also produced quite a few decent scientists. ashoke sen and rajesh gopakumar to name two.


3. If the recommendation is to make the quality of board exams, same as JeE; and the teaching levels of board colleges to coaching centers, is it possible? Are we saying some teachers are better than others and some students are better than others then what value addition a school is supposed to give?

don't quite get what you mean by the second half of the first sentence. yes, some teachers are better than others and some students are better than others. how is that surprising ? I thought schools tried to add value while recognizing this glaring fact. if they were stupidly thinking that all teachers and students are equally competent then that dangerous misconception is the first thing that should be rectified.


What happens when
A good student gets a good teacher
A good student gets a bad teacher
A bad student gets a good teacher
A bad student gets a bad teacher

So what is the success measure? Getting a rank in IIT JEE?

I am not sure if you want an answer for this rhetorical exercise. still, let me take a stab.

if getting a rank in IITJEE is not 'some' measure of success then why bother about it ? just let it be ? why waste time and effort on BRF over an unimportant thing ?

***

Just because Sibal is stupid, anyone who disagrees with him, in this case an equally stupid IIT Msc Phizziks student/grad, need not be automatically wise/correct.

My comment is that if a chi-chi IIT alumni comes with this level of paki-intellectual counter argument, I wonder if we should trust the IIT system at all... (this is where apparently a good student got a good teacher in a good institution) :roll:

I am sorry but it rather seems that you are employing the paki tactic of name calling (that too towards a kid young enough to be your son) because you have no logical counter to what he said.
verbal violence can't be a substitute for reason and logic.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Rahul M »

Raja Bose wrote: While I dont support whatever latest BS scheme Sibal is peddling for votebank politics, this whole mystique business is a bit paki. And the bolded statement above underlines something I have been against for a long long time namely, the misguided habit of considering exams such as these to be the end-all-be-all as if being successful in clearing an arbitrary exam makes someone well qualified to innovate and be creative in the real world. Its like comparing a sprint with a marathon.
completely agree. while JEE is a pretty tough exam and all, at the end of the day it is just another entrance exam signifying just another way to success (whichever way one might define it). this mystique business is hogwash.

minus the weightage to board results part, rest of the proposal is sane. keep something like 50 percentile in respective board exam as a qualifying criteria and have 2 levels of exam, one MCQ and one that involves doing problems, like the IIT mains of old.
On another note, in my sample size of IIT alumni I have interviewed over the years (all have pee-chaddis from good massa universities and BTech from CS/EE from one of the original 5 IITs), the average quality of the more recent alumni is no better than a similar recent grad from a non-IIT engg college, in some cases it was noticeably worse - this did not hold true with the older alumni set. So I am not sure if that analytical thinking exam you speak of is doing its job properly today in filtering in the right kind of talent.
I keep hearing that the recent MCQ only format has diluted standards. absence of written answers means that motivation to do hard time involving problems is no longer there.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Raja Bose »

Rahul M wrote:I keep hearing that the recent MCQ only format has diluted standards. absence of written answers means that motivation to do hard time involving problems is no longer there.
It is MCQ onlee?! :shock: No wonder it is totally pakified. :roll:
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by RamaY »

^ RahulMji

I am not interested in debating with you one what one stupid kid wrote. I understand that you like his PoV and I disagree.

I wonder if you know anyone who got IIT rank but failed in board exams. All the IIT rank holders I came across got extremely good board marks (definitely first class = 60%).

The high marks in board exams may not be an indicator of good JEE rank, but good JEE rank means good board exams. So why would a smart kid lose at all.

I will ask a simple question. There are many pcheddis here and some of them professors. Even after all the education in mass schools whom would they give better grade?
- a student who put the starting formula and the answer
- a student who put the formula, explains how s/he applied it to the problem given and how arrives at the answer

The CUTE model answers have a reason behind them. I am not sure if are exposed to teaching profession and marks list evaluation. When you do not know the student first hand, you need a "standardized" process to evolve their knowledge.

Coming to the board exam model, why didn't none of the IIT alumni ask for their format change all these years, if they thought it is socially and intellectual ineffective way of teaching science to their next generations? We're they busy stopping Indian response to parliament attacks?

Given the same syllabus and their interest (or philosophy) of giving knowledge (only and not intellect) how can they come up with 1000 different questions? You can argue that this is an incorrect philosophy. I would agree with that. But our IIT student didn't do anything +ve in his life untile some bad bad Kapil Sibal pulled the mat under his feet (proverbially)

Coming to Paki argument - well I am not an IIt alumni so I am not supposed to be an intellectual. I was pointing at the chi chi logic that kid came out with and even more chi-chi people who think his arguments are great.

That kid gave hints of the problem at the beginning of the article. He observed the penchant for IiTs is due to the fact that they offer better chance of employment. I hope this kid went to IIT just for knowledge and nothing else.

In a world where job opportunity is the only/chief motivation for knowledge acquisition, we cannot avoid this type of issues. No wonder majority of IItians go for civils, embeeyes and other economically and socially remunerative opportunities. Very few go to these elite institutions just for knowledge.

Since majority of do not end up in knowledge development activities, the JEE system (and associated "poor always gets a bad deal " type pakiness) is not socially effective. As the prime supporter of this infrastructure, the GoI and its representative Kapil Sibal have a right to do what they want.

RahulM - arent you one of Those who supported/respected/revered MMS just because he is PM of India, irrespective of his shortfalls and mistakes (at grave expense to the nation) in the name of forum decorum? How is Kapil Sibal different? He is the HRD minister of India and has the authority to optimize it as he sees it.

PS: forgive the mistakes. This iPad (creation of not IiTian) sucks when it tries to auto select and auto correct words..
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Raja Bose »

RamaY wrote: I wonder if you know anyone who got IIT rank but failed in board exams. All the IIT rank holders I came across got extremely good board marks (definitely first class = 60%).
Actually RamaY ji, I knew of several including some in my own class 12 batch (CBSE). If I remember correctly you needed a minimum of 60% in board exam otherwise you were not allowed to enroll in IIT UG and quite a few folks who were totally focused on JEE style exam prep stumbled there. A part of the reason was also the misplaced confidence that cracking JEE automatically meant they didn't need to study for boards.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by RamaY »

^ RB mullah

Any idea why an IIT would put such a condition undermining its own selection exam?

How could a student who is preparing for IIT ignore one of the selection criteria?

Isn't it same as some one scoring 100% in all the exams but failing in just one subject?
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Raja Bose »

^^I dont think the IITs were trying to undermine its selection exam rather they were trying to ensure minimum performance in +2 exams - after all IIT exams and board exams are both conducted by sarkari bodies onlee. As to why students did that - its easy to forget in the JEE frenzy that there is a world outside it and prepping for that is also important. Again goes back to a specific exam being an end-all-be-all attitude.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by kasthuri »

Rahul M wrote: he IS studying science. he is a student at integrated MSc physics at IITK.

and just FYI admissions at IISER undergraduate courses is also done on the basis of JEE list.

I'm not a product of eye eye tees (I hated chemistry too much to clear JEE) but I agree with him completely. the coaching centres do not give anyone an unfair advantage, not unless they already have the spark and ability to work hard.
My bad Rahulji...however, the point is this - I know integrated programs at IITK are one of the best. However, if it requires only people with quick analytical skills then it eliminates a larger pool of good students - like the types of Ramakrishnan, who would be automatically weeded out. I am not saying what Sibal is doing is good, however dilution of IIT standards may not be such a bad idea after all...

P.S: Again, dilution doesn't mean poor standards, more inclusive that's all.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by SriKumar »

Arjun wrote: No intention to exclude anyone from the debate. Just that someone who's been through the system would understand the drivers that compel talent across India to aim for the JEE.
Sounds reasonable, but a bit cryptic. It is safe to say that a huge majority of students (i.e. all who want to do engg.) would have gone through the JEE experience. A few get through, most do not. It is not clear whether you meant that only those who got through JEE would 'understand the drivers'.

I dont really have a prescription for what is a good method for selection. The matter is complicated. I freely admit that I do not read Kapil Sibal's pronouncements/plans. Chances are, I wont agree with them. As for the JEE, I do like one thing about it....that it is one common exam, for all of India. It simplifies things for students all over India and sets one standard for all. It was to my benefit.....in my 10th, a lot of my classmates went from CBSE to State Board where you were guaranteed 90+% in XIIth class if you had half a brain; and 95%+ if you were reasonably good. I stayed back in CBSE only because of entrance exams that did *not* take the Board marks into account.

My problem with the way things developed is that the JEE has become a litmus test for all students in India who do engg. Now, it is probably correct to say that this is no one person's fault.....newspapers, magazines publish the names of their students (and give them cash awards) because they made it. Perhaps it is the way our Indian society is.....you write a tough exam, you ace it and you are therefore a star worthy of worship and national adulation. There is a tiny bit of a servant mentality in this whole situation......the group that administers the exam (IIT/IAS/any GOI entity) holds all the cards. I really wonder when and how in India's history did this mentality take hold. Was there any similar educational structure in India's 3500 year history? Poster 'shiv' once suggested that this may have arisen out of the British colonial rule where they wanted smart Indians as subordinates to execute tasks in systems they had set up to govern India (railways, tax collection, district administration, law and order etc). And at that time, anyone who wanted to earn a good living had to study hard for these exams and get through, and if they did, their life was all set in their sarkari naukari. How is all this relevant to the topic at hand? Passing the JEE physics, math and chemistry exams give you a leg up on the analytical skills for those subjects. But is that the end goal of this whole jhamela? Why study engineering? As a first step, let's start with an assumption (albeit naive) that the goal is to actually get an education. What are you going to do with it? Presumably, one would get an engineering degree and do something worthwhile with it...like build a nice bridge (Bandra-Worli), an indigineous plane, rocket launch vehicles, new methods to build sub-surface infrastructure (right now we need machines and workers from China to dig tunnels in Chennai)! Now, none of these things are celebrated in the desi society as much as getting a rank in JEE (there are a few exceptions with PSLV etc). I would argue that the former are more real accomplishments. The desi society's view is very thoroughly screwed up in this regard, and it is to its detriment. The scope of the problem is much more than a few hundred thousand students taking one exam and not getting a rank. It is becoming an issue relating to national public health.

The other part that puzzles me is that this desire to maintain an exclusivity of the brand name is driven by the very people who have these highly-developed, world-class skills and competencies. If one truly has world-class skills, is that alone not enough. One wonders about the need to resort to other methods to keep a mystique in place. One could argue that this is human nature and it cuts across all categories, elite or otherwise, but if one has to do it, atleast do it on personal dime.

We have these discussions on BRF about once every 1.5 years. The previous time it happened, poster Stan_Savljevic went into a lot of detail on what might be an alternative scheme to induct 'good' students into IITs. His posts might still be around and searchable. He was bemoaning the 'democratization of IITs' (not quite sure what he meant by this, but I think he was referring to the crop of students who enroll in Kota-like coaching centers, go Spartan for 3 years, ace JEE and get in. They were not up to snuff, per his findings). I think he said that ultimately something like a personal interview had to be a part of the process to guarantee intake of quality students since Kota had cracked the system. However, given the number of students who need to be screened out, this looked like a non-starter. He had worked out some numbers in his post, if anyone is interested. Ultimately, it all comes down to high demand and low supply.
Last edited by SriKumar on 24 Jun 2012 08:45, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Saral »

Historically, JEE has been a good predictor of talent, even among the few who go into the sciences.. example: Subir Sachdev; http://sachdev.physics.harvard.edu/ JEE #2 http://qpt.physics.harvard.edu/c63.pdf. He must be at the top of his field in the world; why would you consider his level to be any less than Ramakrishnan's? There are guys who got lower ranks (in the hundreds) who are members of national academies in massa. The head of MIT edX is an IITian. Here's a guy who may not be at Sachdev's level but a solid teacher at Yale (http://oyc.yale.edu/physics/phys-200 ) There are about 10% of each batch that are among the top of their chosen field, a very high rate. Most do not go into theory or academics at all. I'd venture to say that the achievements of these 10% (pre 2000s) were exceptional. Of course nowadays it is different as the number of seats has increased by a factor of 4, among other things. And among the IITs today, Bombay is way ahead of the rest (in terms of alumni support and reputation).
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Vayutuvan »

Srikumar ji excellently articulated. See,Kota has gamed the process and it is time to change the process for something better. There is no system in the world that cannot be gamed, but at least one can try. Also it takes time to game something. So we will have that much of a breathing space.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 24 Jun 2012 09:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by kasthuri »

nsriram wrote:Historically, JEE has been a good predictor of talent, even among the few who go into the sciences.. example: Subir Sachdev; http://sachdev.physics.harvard.edu/ JEE #2 http://qpt.physics.harvard.edu/c63.pdf. He must be at the top of his field in the world; why would you consider his level to be any less than Ramakrishnan's? There are guys who got lower ranks (in the hundreds) who are members of national academies in massa. The head of MIT edX is an IITian. Here's a guy who may not be at Sachdev's level but a solid teacher at Yale (http://oyc.yale.edu/physics/phys-200 ) There are about 10% of each batch that are among the top of their chosen field, a very high rate. Most do not go into theory or academics at all. I'd venture to say that the achievements of these 10% (pre 2000s) were exceptional. Of course nowadays it is different as the number of seats has increased by a factor of 4, among other things. And among the IITs today, Bombay is way ahead of the rest (in terms of alumni support and reputation).
I am not into any comparison here. Agreed there are super smart researchers established in science in the massa who are IIT products. My own advisor is all india IIT rank 6 and I should say he is one of the smartest people I have ever met. He is a man with very deep ideas and I have a very deep respect for him. But science is not just restricted to math, physics and chemistry. What about computer science and biology? How are we going to address the health issues and translational medicine in India if we are obsessed only with the kids that can solve a bunch of equations? Remember, I am not taking about medicine or doctors. These are basic sciences, the holy triad of biology (biochemistry, molecular biology and genetics) and computer science. The work of Ramakrishnan will go a long way in solving immediate problems than the likes of Subir Sachdev. In other words, studying small pox sounds more significant than sweating about string theory!

The current model just throws budding computer scientists and biologists into garbage...
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Singha »

in my opionion chemistry, biology, mechanical, material sc and chemical engineering are the most important branches for india at this stage to push the country forward in industrialization. just looking around me, pretty much all the stuff in my house have some form of chemical engineering built in and we dont have the bayer, basf, duponts, 3ms of the world.

at present chem/bio is the haven of girls
mechanical engg does attract a small section of top tankers
chemical engg does not attract the top rankers.
material science is a kind of pariah even in 2nd rung colleges

90% of the top tankers are going into a specific small area of CSE (whatever the most paying cos of the day look for sometime it was networking, today its algorithms, big data, web, tomorrow something else...) , ECE (digital electronics) and mechanical probably.

also it does not matter what the top5% take in UG because the top5% invariably migrate out and almost never return back. what the next 20% does could have a good impact on the country though, because some never go and many might return later.

there is almost 0% chance of a high profile theorist prof at mit or stanford returning to india ever. even if they commercialize something, will be for GOTUS/MNC and we like everyone else will have to pay dollar price for it. no discount to indians and dogs! :)
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Arjun »

Raja Bose wrote:While I dont support whatever latest BS scheme Sibal is peddling for votebank politics, this whole mystique business is a bit paki. And the bolded statement above underlines something I have been against for a long long time namely, the misguided habit of considering exams such as these to be the end-all-be-all as if being successful in clearing an arbitrary exam makes someone well qualified to innovate and be creative in the real world. Its like comparing a sprint with a marathon.
Completely disagree with the bolded part. The mystique and brand (& I use these words quite deliberately) are central to attracting the best across India. The IITs are among the handful of Indian equivalents to the Ivy League - and this remains a key factor for many among the topmost tier to stay back for an undergrad in the IITs.

Even in my times there were the rare handful of cases where JEE toppers would ditch the IITs for a Yale /Dartmouth/Princeton undergrad. In a globalized world, these kind of cases would only increase even at the undergrad level; & if the JEE is diluted - the wholesale flight to the US which today occurs at the graduate level would only start getting advanced to the undergrad level.

When you say the 'whole mystique business is a bit paki' would it be fair to conclude that you also think the mystique that the Ivy League has succeeded in creating is a bit paki - and that you would rather not want your children to study at a Harvard or Stanford ?

The problem in India is not the 'mystique' and brand associated with the IIT UG - rather it has been the lack of effort in creating many more such equivalent brands in other areas of endeavour in sciences and humanities. We are seeing that happen to some extent - the National Law Schools etc which have now started gaining some brand momentum. Its also the lack of effort in creating a similar pull for talent at the IIT PG level and at the faculty level - which are far more relevant to making India a science superpower.

In fact its the attitude of many out here that I find completely Paki or Indian Crab-like (or are both of these the same?). Rather than pulling down a successful Indian product - focus on creating many more successful talent-pulling products in other areas both within the engineering discipline and outside.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Raja Bose »

Arjun, Unfortunately we have Zero equivalents to the US Ivy League in India - absolutely zero. Hence, let us not even make that comparison. Unlike the IITs, the Ivy League universities did not become well regarded based on the ability of their students to crack some uber-tough exam or being able to endure a crushing workload during UG - major research contributions and breakthroughs in multiple fields of study can be traced back to them.
Arjun wrote: When you say the 'whole mystique business is a bit paki' would it be fair to conclude that you also think the mystique that the Ivy League has succeeded in creating is a bit paki
This is where your perception is incorrect. Ivy League universities are very well regarded in a number of fields but that has nothing to do with some vague "mystique". In fact, if it was I would make the same statement in context of Ivy League too. If I want someone to study there, it would certainly not be becoz of the 'mystique', the reasons will be much more tangible. Even in massa it is quite common for middle class folks to send their kids to a good state school for UG and only send them to Ivy League (or MIT or Stanford etc.) for grad/MBA/pee-chaddi becoz in the end regardless of how smart a kid is, UG only has a limited effect on their future skills in context of research ability and ability to innovate (barring some genius outliers).

In context of IITs, I am not even sure if the JEE exam filters in the right type of talent to make them the Indian equivalent of Ivy League - that is the problem.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Singha »

is the oppn of some alumni to expansion of the IIT system based on dilution of the brand/mystique/cutoff mark in JEE/std of students? (which is inevitable if a system doubles in size)
but the faculty and campuses are being increased too in phases...its not as if student:teacher ratio is being drastically made worse, or 3 people made to share a lab experiment and such...
sure the new campuses will take some time to reach the level of the old - but again that is inevitable for large institutions...

imo we need to educate more and more people at a better std which is what the iit/nit system expansion will do, plus being govt subsidized to an extent more and more will get a cheaper higher edu, which some could not have afforded earlier.

brand/mystique can be talked about when like the UC system they start delivering lot of new cos / product ideas and really hook into the indian industry synergy. neither the iits or indian industry is there yet.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Raja Bose »

Singha wrote: imo we need to educate more and more people at a better std which is what the iit/nit system expansion will do, plus being govt subsidized to an extent more and more will get a cheaper higher edu, which some could not have afforded earlier.
Exactly. 1st we need to get to the level of the state university system in massa in terms of research output, incubation of new products/companies. A solid state university system (and not just in engineering) is essential for a country to become a super power since they form the baseline for research and innovation across all fields. Most breakthroughs are rarely as a result of a few elite geniuses cooped up in some lab, it is achieved through pushing up the average quality of mango researchers - this is where massa and to a smaller extent ex-USSR/UK/Oz/Canada/Germany excelled.

If the IITs were premier research institutions already then it makes sense not to touch them or let them be the elite Ivy League but in this case IITs are nowhere in terms of research and innovation, considering they are India's flagship engineering colleges. In such cases the excuse for not touching them in any manner just becoz of the need to maintain the "mystique" as-is, is not enough. Yes, it gives one extra pride to be perceived as a cut above the rest but the reason for that pride needs to be grounded in the contributions of their alma mater - not on some vague 'mystique' based branding. Now this mystique stuff is quite commonly propagated especially amongst IIT alumni (pitashree included) in IIT meets here in massa and in India, and the single most common reaction I have seen from other folks who belong to top institutions (including Ivy League) is along the lines of: "If it is so successful, why don't you replicate the success story instead of trying harder to keep it the preserve of a few? If it is so successful, why don't I see significant research output in mainstream academia from them?"
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Arjun »

Raja Bose wrote:Arjun, Unfortunately we have Zero equivalents to the US Ivy League in India - absolutely zero. Hence, let us not even make that comparison. Unlike the IITs, the Ivy League universities did not become well regarded based on the ability of their students to crack some uber-tough exam or being able to endure a crushing workload during UG - major research contributions and breakthroughs in multiple fields of study can be traced back to them.
I think we are mixing up a few things out here.

You are saying the Ivy League branding is based on their research output & Faculty (Nobels etc) - and the IIT brand is not. I don't disagree with you.

But research output depends only on PG and Faculty and maybe other investments made into lab facilities. It has absolutely nothing to do with the UG program. Like I have pointed out before there needs to be much better 'mystique' and branding at the PG level and at the Faculty level....but that has nothing to do with the discussion regarding JEE.

Whatever branding is associated with IIT is solely on account of the quality of talent attracted at the UG level. We are therefore left with three follow-on questions-

1. Is there even a need for branding at the UG level, when research output depends only on PG & Faculty levels?
2. By what measures do we say that IIT UG attracts the most 'talented' in India?
3. Are the abilities gauged for adjudging talent at the IITs the relevant ones for future success in research and other areas?

Lets take each one of these questions-

1. Branding at the IIT PG and Faculty levels to attract the best world-standard talent out there would have been ideal. But it does take a lot of investment and autonomy in compensation and other standards for this to happen. The fact that IIT is a brand already based on its UG students should have been leveraged much earlier - but it is not too late to move towards that goal.

Branding at the UG level based on student talent makes sense independent of the PG & research issue. In a country where the youth are mostly continually dealing with mediocrity through the full K-12 routine, it is critical for there to be UG Institutes of Excellence for the youth to aim to that are associated with world-beating standards. And admission standards play a fundamental part in setting the standards required for an any such institute of excellence. So branding at the UG level is a way to break into the global branded Institutes game that is not expensive - but needs to be followed up with higher investment on the PG and Faculty sides.

2. If you agree that the Physics/ Math Olympiads are a good measure of guaging the highest quality talent in these areas, you should not have a problem with the JEE. It's obviously some way off from being Olympiad standards - but can't think of any other test that would be closer. Aren't most Olympiad participants from India also IITians ?

Also, if GRE is the global standard for PG admissions - you would probably find IITians being the topmost of the heap when it comes to GRE performance...don't know if things have changed substantially but this used to be pretty much true in my times.

3. If you say IIT type talent is not what you look for in research - several questions follow. Would you also say GRE talent is not what you look for? Can the type of talent you look for even be quantified by some standard test ? Why do admissions for US PG consider the IITs more favorably than any other Indian or many other global institutions for scholarship? Don't you agree that they would be best qualified to judge what metrics work at their institutes?

If you believe strongly in other types of talent, why not create another institution that admits based on such a test - and let the market, ie Recruiters and PG admissions folks decide which is better ? That's precisely what Rajat Gupta (Oops, guess he's persona non-grata now) and others did when they created ISB to compete with IIMs.
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