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Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 19 Jun 2010 20:53
by derkonig
^^^
Ah the joys of sekoolaarism.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 19 Jun 2010 21:17
by darshhan
Sanjay M wrote:Look at the thousands of dead Uzbeks from Kyrgyz mobs - lots of dead Muslims. Where are the expressions of outrage from Erdogan and shyamd? I hear only the crickets chirping.
Even dutch cartoonists seem to attract more emotion than this, which speaks to the (non-existent) credibility of the ummah.
Sanjay sir.There is lot of hypocrisy in islamic world.The ummah is outraged only when non muslims kill muslims.When muslims kill muslims or non muslims.The reason is that ummah and indeed majority of muslims have divided the world in two parts.Islamic and non islamic.Whenever a perceived atrocity is done upon muslims by infidels the ummah's Public relations department swings into action.Their task is greatly simplified by the presence of liberals/leftists/useful idiots in infidel societies who help them in disseminating their vile propaganda and prepare the ground for upcoming jihad.
As you said kyrzgiz mobs killing 100's of uzbeks is ignored.While killing of 10 not-so-peaceful turks on hamas aid flotilla invokes a loud uproar.By the way Sanjay interesting point is that both kyrgiz and uzbeks are turkic.and it is indeed surprising that Turkey under erdogan which considers itself to be the patron and saviour of all turkic groups from istanbul to xinjiang chose not to do anything about it.
Another example is sudan.According to some estimates half million inhabitants of Darfur(west sudan) who are also muslim and happen to be of african descent have been murdered by arab sudanese.But Ummah choses to be silent.if one hamas activist is assassinated by Israel it makes news but not darfur.If some prisoners are maltreated in Abu ghraib that makes news but not afghanistan where 1000's of hazaras were massacred by Taliban during 1990's.The plight of ahmadis(who consider themselves to be muslims) is ignored by islamic world but if a protestor is killed accidently by Indian Army islamists will be outraged.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 19 Jun 2010 21:30
by darshhan
brihaspati wrote:Oh, actually, in that vein Turkey has many geese to cook! What about vacating occupied portion of Cyprus! Giving back Kurds their their territory?
Those in Palestine, who refer to themselves as Arab - should legitimately find homeland in Saudi Arabia. What about an alternative proposal for "permanent solution" : Let an "Arabic Republic of Philistina" be carved out of Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and Saudi Arabia. Palestinians are already the signficant proportion of Jordan, and there should not be much trouble in giving territory to "Arabs" from Palestine in the northern emptiness of KSA!
Yes that republic will constantly wage warfare against the Jews, supplied by the remaining Arabs. But at least Israel will be able to deal with it formally, within normal parameters of international warfare.
Brihaspatiji.One point from me.The relapse of Turkey back to islamism under erdogan(For most of the previous century Turkey was a secular society which was ensured by the Turkish army) has proved to me that moderating or reforming Islam is next to impossible.If a secularist like Ataturk failed in his mission to create a sustainable secular society for an islamic population I wonder which moderate muslim today will be able to reform islam.
The problem is the religion itself.Quran explicitly exhorts believers to fight non believers indefinitely and to make them submit.A signifcant percentage of Quran is about how to deal with non believers(rather how to fight with them and make them submit).The Hadiths are even worse.When the source itself is violent what can you expect from the followers.Even if a dictator like ataturk or mubarak can keep the islamists in check using force they cannot change the religious scriptures.When they are gone and leadership consists of weaker men then islamists can always make a comeback.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 19 Jun 2010 21:58
by ajit_tr
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 19 Jun 2010 22:44
by brihaspati
darshan ji,
thats my understanding too. Or the ideology is most convenient for all those who want to justify their bloodlust, sadism, and looting of others land and fruits of labour in the name of divine ordinance. I try to explicitly bring this up in posts.
In this thread, I am trying to explore the myths propagated on behalf of Palestinian Muslims, and their claims and all propaganda against the Israelis. I am not neutral in this scenario, because this is one of those cases when being neutral is favouring injustice and a murderous ideology of subjugation from the side of Islamism.
Because there are so many proposals about "right to land because of prior possession", I was thinking why should not the Israelis claim territory around Medina originally known as Yathrib as their own. Then they can propose an exchange by which those who claim themselves to be part of "Arab" culture can go back to proper "Arab territory" and get a homeland of their own?
All the land-grab against the Jews are recorded by Arab and Persian Islamic narrators - and I have already posted a sequence on the land-grab around Yathrib by Muhammad by dispossessing the Jews. Same goes for all of current "Palestine".
Similarly there should be a Kurdish homeland, and Cyprus should be freed from Turkish occupation. Cn happen at the same time a new homeland is carved out of Jordan and Saudi Arabia for Arabs living in Palestine.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 20 Jun 2010 06:58
by RamaY
brihaspati wrote:
the ideology is most convenient for all those who want to justify their bloodlust, sadism, and looting of others land and fruits of labour in the name of divine ordinance. I try to explicitly bring this up in posts.
Thankyou Bji for this echo! When I made this very statement a couple of years ago, few liberal minds had b* fits...
This ideology thrives on legitimizing individuals' sadistic instincts. 99.999999% of humans nurture these instincts in one or the other form and no wonder this ideology is fastest growing ideology given current affairs of materialism, individualism, and fear-mongering.
Because there are so many proposals about "right to land because of prior possession", I was thinking why should not the Israelis claim territory around Medina originally known as Yathrib as their own. Then they can propose an exchange by which those who claim themselves to be part of "Arab" culture can go back to proper "Arab territory" and get a homeland of their own?
Same here. The memory of past (how far to go back) is manipulated to support one's preferences. These very people, who sympathize with "Palastinian right to land" do not support Hindu's Ayodhya/Varanasi/Mathura demands.
A bunch of fake liberals and intellectuals!!!
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 20 Jun 2010 07:09
by Suppiah
RamaY wrote:Same here. The memory of past (how far to go back) is manipulated to support one's preferences. These very people, who sympathize with "Palastinian right to land" do not support Hindu's Ayodhya/Varanasi/Mathura demands.
A bunch of fake liberals and intellectuals!!!
Good point...they pick and choose periods of history they want to restore and keep the rest confined to history books...sorry even that they try to revise with lies, propaganda and Marxist hogwash..
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 20 Jun 2010 18:54
by chetak
fatwa 101
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2010/06 ... ng_is.html
Saudi clerics issue fatwa okaying adult breast-feeding as way of circumventing Islamic law
BY Paulina Reso
DAILY NEWS WRITER
Wednesday, June 9th 2010, 2:53 PM
Kissing cousins? Not quite.
While it has been common for women to breast-feed their young male relations so that they may be allowed together alone later, two Saudi clerics recently advocated extending the practice to unrelated adult males.
As part of Islamic law, men and women are forbidden to be alone together, unless they are blood relatives or have established maternal relations, in order to prevent sexual contact.
As a way to avoid breaking this rule — which can result in lashings or prison time — Sheikh Al Obeikan, adviser to the royal court and consultant to the Ministry of Justice, told Gulf News that women should give their breast milk to male colleagues, acquaintances or anyone with whom they come into regular contact.
"The man should take the milk, but not directly from the breast of the woman," Al Obeikan said, according to Gulf News. "He should drink it and then becomes a relative of the family, a fact that allows him to come in contact with the women without breaking Islam's rules about mixing."
While Al Obeikan advises that milk should be pumped and then given in a glass, another Saudi sheik, Abi Ishaq Al Huwaini, argues that men should suckle directly.
Soon after these proclamations, a Saudi bus driver allegedly asked a female teacher, whom he drives frequently, for her breast milk, according to AOL News. The teacher refused and is threatening to sue.
This fatwa, which has sparked controversy and disapproval, has prompted some to call for stricter constraints on law making.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 20 Jun 2010 23:10
by shyamd
Sanjay M wrote:Look at the thousands of dead Uzbeks from Kyrgyz mobs - lots of dead Muslims. Where are the expressions of outrage from Erdogan and shyamd? I hear only the crickets chirping.
Lol. Another one of your cheap personal attacks - desperation after losing a debate. But anyway, as usual I shall respond to your comments with FACT something you missed when talking about Israel blockading hamas "due to rockets".
Turkey to send Kyrgyzstan delegation to help stability
Turkey spearheads international aid to strife-torn Kyrgyzstan
Turkey's special representative in Kyrgyzstan meets with Kyrgyz foreign minister
Turkey's special envoy meets with premier of interim govt in Kyrgyzstan
Turkey's FM heads to Kazakhstan over Kyrgyzstan
There is a criticism that foreign policy of Turkey has been re-orientated to West Asia and has neglected its Turkic central asian countries, there is a criticism that Turkey didn't do enough to PREVENT what happened .
UAE who historically has the closest relations with the Kyrgyz have sent a lot of aid via military aircraft and by land.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 20 Jun 2010 23:20
by shyamd
darshhan wrote:
Israel won the post 1967 territory in the 6-day war.Why should they return it?You are saying that they should make the same mistake as India which relinquished haji pir and other territories won in different wars with pakistan in return for nothing.
Its actually very much different. Pakistan is at eternal war with India, and the very reason of its existance is to show its agression to India and harm India. If the same was true with Israel, then Jordan/Egypt would be at war with them after the peace deals - but no they signed peace/friendship treaty with each other and they haven't been at war with each other for a very long time - infact they continue to work with each other.
Secondly post 1967 territories also include jerusalem which is the historical homeland for jews.How can they return it?Infact why should they return it?
I understand that, however in the arab point of view, they are not asking for the entire of jerusalem, but just
east jerusalem which has the most number of arabs and their holy site is in that location.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 21 Jun 2010 01:51
by Sanku
Oh the Arabs are at eternal war with Jews even before the first Pakistani coward converted to Islam to save his life.
Arabs want things done morally, let them all return to South of Arabian peninsula, that is their homeland.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 21 Jun 2010 01:55
by Carl_T
Why would they return to the Arabian Peninsula and what makes you think that is their homeland?
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 21 Jun 2010 02:01
by Sanku
I can always chose my time references for the above to work appropriately.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 21 Jun 2010 02:04
by Carl_T
What does this have to do with time references? Now you are telling me that Egyptians, Lebanese, Iraqis etc. are all really from the southen Arabian Peninsula.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 21 Jun 2010 02:13
by brihaspati
^^^Oh, he can simply choose 620-680 CE for example, when the Jewish tribes were pushed out from what is now modern northern KSA and HKJ, and finally from most areas in Palestine. Even if not physically pushed out in cases, but dispossessed of their land and farms with estates formed out of them and given to Islamists from Arabia - such as a well known case of the so-called estates of "Amr".
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 21 Jun 2010 02:15
by Carl_T
Do explain how that shows that all the Arabs real homeland is in the Arabian Peninsula.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 21 Jun 2010 02:47
by brihaspati
Well, as far as I understand his argument - he is saying that Arabs choose a certain time-frame - that is post Islamic conquest of Syria and Palestine - to push for dissolution of the Israeli state, or as it comes out in many of the narratives of aspirations by the major Islamist organizations supporting the current Palestinian self-determination movement - to put Jews back to their "original state under Islam". These Arabs or Islamists fail to consider the previous time frame when the Jews were independent of Islamic subjugation, or Arab rule. Therefore, Sankuji is within his rights to be selective about the time frame to legitimize the opposite view that before the Arab conquest, Arabs were not present on Jewish lands and that they had simply come from Arabia to colonize.
Now whether all Arabs have their original homeland in southern peninsula or not - is an interesting issue, and you can simply try raising this issue with any Arab you happen to know. The Yemenis still have some historical claims of culture [perhaps linked to Sabataens], but generally the Arabs have a long-standing reputation of being pirates - as claimed in Graeco-Roman records, and therefore their habitat and continuity of that "spirit of adventure" have been continuously studied. I would say most academics would still agree that the modern Arabs have been living in the peninsula for a long long time and they were usually not allowed to expand outside that perimeter by the other strong empires or historical powers. Even the Jews were found to be useful as labour and skilled labour - but not Arabs [except as harvesters or transporters of myrrh] and more of a nuisance. Look at Egyptian records, and relations with Hiittites and Mesopotamian empires.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 21 Jun 2010 03:11
by brihaspati
Palestinian identity in itself would not have been much of a problem as an ethnicity, if it was not also simultaneously an Islamist identity, which refuses to live long term under any state arrangement where it cannot have supreme power and the right to convert, subjugate and erase non-muslim cultures sharing the same space.
A two-state solution where Palestinian pockets exist in an Israeli state, or where territories contiguous to other Muslim states like Egypt, Syria or Jordan are declared an independent nation will simply provide the Islamists a new international legitimacy under which they can intensify their aim of clearing eastern Mediterranean of non-Muslims.
It has to be a one-state solution, in which the Constitutional basis should be clearly recognized as that of the Jewish character of the state (primacy of Judaic views on law etc) but which can allow non-Jews to enjoy equal rights as citizens compared to Jewish citizens except matters of state security for a fixed period of time but which is not shorter than at least two or three generations. Violation or attempt to overturn this basic Judaic premise of the constitutional character should be made a treasonable offense. This is basically to ensure that Sharia cannot be "slowly crept" in.
In Islamic countries, religious institutions of non-Muslims are typically not permitted, and so Islamic institutions should not be permitted in the new one-state of Israel. Moreover, in Islamic lands, any religious, cultural, social aspect of life of non-Muslims that contradicts or violates Islamic sensibilities are also not allowed, and a reciprocal treatment should be applied.
As Palestinians they should be most welcome, but as Islamics they have to be rejected and cannot be part of and stay within Israel.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 21 Jun 2010 04:17
by Prem
Sanky sir ji,
I am looking at this way.The problem started when Arabs converted and became Islamists so your cut off date coincide reasonably well with their cut of date. Jews were banished not by Arabs of pre Islamist era but of Mohamadani era. The Kuffar Arabs must be treated separately . Same can be easily applied to Indian Subcontinent by assuming the cut of date is the arrival of MB Qasim. The paradgim shift happen with the ideology and logic demands it to be turned around on the very same basis.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 21 Jun 2010 05:05
by Sanjay M
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 21 Jun 2010 11:09
by Sanku
Thanks brihaspati Mahodaya, that does capture the essence of the debate very succinctly.
Prem, I do not know of cases where the Ideology and ethnicity are separate in context of ME. So while what you are saying is true, today for all practical purposes the ideology is essentially around the ethnicity and their way of life, and vice versa. They are too heavily entwined to be different. Which is fine. Any ethnicity can decide to follow a ideology and live by it.
The joke is on others really.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 21 Jun 2010 11:22
by Suppiah
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php? ... 2010-06-20
A nice article - explains the irrationality of Erdogan's Arab obsession, and why Abdul in Arab street is cheering him...
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 21 Jun 2010 11:40
by Kanson
From Wiki:
On East Jerusalem
international law experts, such as Julius Stone, have argued that Israel has sovereignty over East Jerusalem under international law, since Jordan did not have legal sovereignty over the territory, and thus Israel was entitled in an act of self-defense during the Six Day War to "fill the vacuum".[24]
international law experts such as Howard Grief have argued that Israel obtained de jure sovereignty over Palestine under the San Remo Agreement which transformed the Balfour Declaration into International Law. Grief states that under the International law doctrine of acquired rights, codified in the 1969 Vienna Convention on Treaties, when England abandoned its League of Nations "mandate" or trusteeship as the arrangement is now referred to by the UN, Israel, the beneficiary of the political rights over Palestine kept the sovereignty promised under the agreement when the Jews were able to exercise it. Under Article 80 of the UN Charter, the rights awarded by the San Remo Agreement and the League of Nations Mandate, were preserved in full. For more detail, see: Howard Grief, "Legal Foundation and Borders of Israel under International Law.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 21 Jun 2010 11:46
by Kanson
Is it not this unceasing hatred that we see from our neighbour ? The situation is similar. Is not the west worked against us in the same way...only difference is that we are indentified as browns..
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 21 Jun 2010 11:54
by Suppiah
If Israel and Jordan/Egypt are 'friends' then India-Pak are inseparable bossom buddies...
Arabs are all for 'giving' everything to the Palestinians as long as it is Israel that is doing the giving, not them...when it comes to their own giving, they show their true colors....for instance Lebanon where many high paying jobs are barred for palestinians and even for low paying ones, they have to get approval - which is rarely given..
I think this 'giving benefits to Palestinians will dilute their demand' is a convenient bogey...
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 21 Jun 2010 17:22
by Suppiah
Dont know if it is old hat for you guys, but just discovered that Israel in recent months has discovered almost 30tcf of gas which is twice UK size allowing it to be a significant player and exporter! Of course, Lebanon is disputing the field to add to the ME mess...
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 22 Jun 2010 08:35
by abhishek_sharma
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 22 Jun 2010 08:47
by abhishek_sharma
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 22 Jun 2010 08:47
by abhishek_sharma
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 22 Jun 2010 11:37
by Klaus
Surprising that Lebanon does not know its own demographics:
Link.
Percentage population of Christians in Lebanon is decreasing at the same rate as the ethnic Armenian population. Both events happening within Turkey's periphery!
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 22 Jun 2010 17:45
by brihaspati
^^Probably Christians being kicked out by modern day inheritors of the Romans. Or voluntarily migrating. Or seeing the truth and light of Islam. Or simply the divinely gifted greater fertility to one single religion. It has nothing to do with Islamists of Lebanon! Any other thought is a punishable offense.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 22 Jun 2010 19:27
by RamaY
^ that is a classic Ostrich mentality. It will be too late soon.
Very similar to something that UPA Govt and DDM want to do to Indian majority.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 22 Jun 2010 22:10
by Ameet
Old habits die hard - Saudi Arabia convicts 15 men, women for mingling at party
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010 ... audi_N.htm
Judicial officials say a Saudi court has convicted four women and 11 men for mingling at a party and sentenced them to flogging and prison terms.
The men, who are between 30 and 40 years old, and three of the women, who are under the age of 30, were sentenced to an
unspecified number of lashes and one or two year prison terms each.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 23 Jun 2010 10:07
by abhishek_sharma
Gaza’s humanitarian crisis is not a surprise--it’s what we wanted
http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/ ... _we_wanted
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 24 Jun 2010 09:17
by Carl_T
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 24 Jun 2010 09:22
by Sanjay M
Arab obsession with Turkish soaps reminds me of Indian fixation with Pakistani soaps.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 24 Jun 2010 09:28
by Carl_T
I think you might mean vice versa.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 24 Jun 2010 10:12
by Carl_T
Why the Irish love Palestinians so much.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... _palestine
Despite peace, these cleavages still run deep: In response to the Second Intifada, northern Protestant areas flew the Israeli flag, and Catholic areas raised the Palestinian national colors.
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 24 Jun 2010 14:40
by Chinmayanand
Re: West Asia News and Discussions
Posted: 25 Jun 2010 04:16
by Rudradev
New battle lines are hesitantly being drawn across West Asia. The speculation I post here is one possible outcome of the geopolitical processes that are currently in motion.
By 2012 West Asia has more or less divided itself into two mutually-opposed alliances, or Blocs.
The Northern Bloc consists of Iran, Syria, Turkey and possibly Lebanon.
The Southern Bloc, US/Western supported, comprises Jordan, KSA, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait and possibly Oman. Israel has pitched its tent with the Southern Bloc for now.
Contested areas are Yemen, where a Saudi-backed regime fights against Iranian-backed rebels; and Iraq, where the Northern Bloc has influence over the Shia South and the US has influence over the Kurdish North. Ancillary contested areas are Afghanistan and Egypt, where governments that lean towards the US-backed Southern Bloc are under siege by Islamist forces of Al-Qaeda Associated Movements.
It remains to be seen which way the AQAM will jump. Ideologically they are closer to the Wahhabis of the Southern Bloc; but their political objectives are more in tune with the Northern Bloc, in that they would aim to destabilize states and depose governments friendly to the US-backed Southern Bloc. Probably Iran has already negotiated with them, keeping this in mind.
Pakistan is likely to be sharply divided. The more pure Hamid Gul types will of course, favour a grand alliance of Pakistan plus Northern Bloc plus AQAM, directed against all US-backed regimes of the Southern Bloc, aiming to destroy Israel, "liberate" the Southern Bloc countries and establish a new Caliphate. The more pragmatic jernails will prefer to stick it out on the US teat for as long as they can, while doing as little as possible to directly harm the Northern Bloc forces.
The Northern Bloc is the type of system where Russia (and more likely, China) could fish in troubled waters to develop a proxy against US/Western dominance of West Asia, in a reversal of the West's usage of Islamist proxies to contain Russia's southern flank during the Cold War. A caveat, however in that Iran, Turkey and to a lesser extent Syria are the most civilizationally experienced nation states, or empire states in the region; compared to them the Southern Bloc Sheikhdoms are post colonial edifices and possibly much more easily malleable by outside influence.
The one weakness of the Northern Bloc, of course, is the inherent ideological contradiction between Iranian/Turkish pan-Islamism and AQAM's Wahhabism. Even if the Northern Bloc succeeds in dominating the Southern Bloc and establishing a Caliphate with the help of AQAM, the AQAM will ultimately turn against them for ideological reasons.
Questions:
1. How likely is this scenario, partially analogous to pre WW1 Europe, to materialize?
2.Having materialized, how likely is it to lead to all out war possibly involving nukes (rather than a limited set of proxy conflicts?)
3. What are India's best options in this scenario? What are our biggest concerns and hopes? What are the options and viewpoints of other global powers?