Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 20 Mar 2014 03:13

UlanBatori wrote:They should be looking for the Debbie Does Dallas videos concealed behind those monitors.

you mean ... Debbie Bone of "You Light up Life" fame

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 Mar 2014 03:14

A light bulb went on in my brain.

Electrical failure blew out ACARS first, then messed up FMS. The senior guy might have been taking rest at that time. The junior guy did not suspect anything and said "Alright, goodnight".

The electrical failure then started burning and the toxic smoke incapacitates the crew, who managed to bring the airplane back on course (but were off by 100s of miles to the west) before loosing consciousness. Flight crashes after 8 more hours.

I still believe that it is South/South West of Australia.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Mar 2014 03:16

UB story from WaPo. Looks like the computer mfg want more wampum.

MAS didnt buy computer upgrade that could have given data on MH-370

A simple computer upgrade that Malaysia Airlines decided not to purchase would have provided critical information to help find the airliner that disappeared 11 days ago.

The upgrade, which wholesales for about $10 per flight, would have provided investigators with the direction, speed and altitude of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 even after other communications from the plane went dark, said a satellite industry official familiar with the equipment.

....
The new information indicates that had the upgrade for a system called Swift been installed, it would have continued to send flight data by satellite even after signals from the plane’s transponder and Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) went dead.

Investigators say they think those two systems were shut down by a pilot or hijackers in the cockpit before the plane flew on for another seven hours.

The satellite industry official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the investigation, likened the Swift system to a cellphone that sends data to a satellite. He described ACARS as akin to an app for a mobile phone.

Had the Swift system been upgraded to include the full package of applications, it could have sent information on engine performance, fuel consumption, speed, altitude and direction, regardless of whether the transponder and ACARS were working, he said.

....
“When ACARS is turned off, Swift continues on,” he said. “If you configure Swift to track engine data, that data will be streamed off the plane. It continues to be powered up while the aircraft is powered up.”

Many major airlines use the full package of Swift options. The detail it provides is mandated under international aviation guidelines for airlines that ply the busy North Atlantic corridor between the United States and Europe. There are no such requirements elsewhere in the world, the industry official said.

In addition to sending information to the airline, Swift also can be programmed to send data to the manufacturer — usually Boeing or Airbus — and the engine maker — usually Rolls-Royce or Pratt & Whitney.

“It’s a choice of what you do with your aircraft,” the satellite industry official said. “When you get your plane from Boeing, you can get an engine management app, a route management app, or you might decide that you want the bare minimum. There isn’t a mandated requirement.”

The application wholesales for about $10 per flight, but airlines pay a higher retail fee. Some airlines have decided they do not want to pay the higher cost for an information stream that they deem unnecessary except under the most extreme circumstances.

...
Asked why an airline might choose not to buy an application that sells for a relatively modest cost, the official said, “Every pound on an aircraft is fuel consumed. As in all matters, it always comes down to cost.”

Rather than stream those data, he said, some airlines choose to download it onto a USB stick once the plane lands.

Because Malaysia Airlines went with the cheaper option, he said, “there was not an awful lot that was captured.”

With the transponder and ACARS not operating, the satellite tried to contact the missing flight hourly.

He said the satellite “sends out an automated ping to say, ‘Are you there?’ and the machine-to-machine response is, ‘Yes, I am.’ ”

That “yes, I am” response is how investigators determined that the plane flew on for several hours.

....
Following the Sept. 11 terror attacks, all ships must carry an advanced tracking system is known as the Long Range Information and Tracking system, which enables satellites to follow the movements of vessels as they traverse the globe. If a ship goes down, rescue crews will know which area to concentrate their search.

“The U.S. Coast Guard came to us and we introduced the system. There really wasn’t anything before that,” said Andrew Winbow, director of the safety division for the International Maritime Organization in London.

...

Looks like India needs to have all flights and ships approaching to have similar identification systems.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 20 Mar 2014 03:16

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... asons.html

Malaysian officials have confirmed they received 'some radar data' from other countries about the missing Flight MH370 today - but claimed they were 'not at liberty' to release the information.
Speaking at a press conference this afternoon, acting Transport Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said Malaysia was continuing to co-ordinate the search for the missing Boeing 777-200ER.
He added: 'I can confirm that we have received some radar data, but we are not at liberty to release information from other countries.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 20 Mar 2014 03:23

viv wrote:Yep, I suggested just that in the last page - kids, nephew, brother/other relatives; or even a side business to train others is a possibility.

Saw your response after I posted. Also, IMHO the pilot seems to be a decent guy who is unhappy with a repressive regime. So here is hoping that the 100% Paki (non-)state actor connection will emerge sooner than later. Please note that I am only 100% sure - not 400%.

Also both pilots seem to love life - what with the older one having that elaborate sim rig and the younger being a playboy. What is the point giving up all that life has to offer for a doubtful 72 so-virgins in afterlife if any.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 Mar 2014 03:28

Desperate Malays maybe searching for a scapegoat. What better way to make a political splash by blaming this on an Anwar supporter

.

Edit: Also the older pilot's youtube video was uploaded only a few months back and he seemed very happy and cheerful. It takes a couple of years (of mulla brogramming) for someone to go from that state to fully hardened 72 seeking Paki who is willing to kill 100s without an issue. Either that of he had a life changing event that made him go crazy in between 2 months and now, the evidence of which is none so far (according to the Malays themselves).

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 20 Mar 2014 03:33

Lilo wrote:As I said Massa and Boeing techs know about MH370 but don't want to reveal.
People should start their CTs taking above as a base axiom.

Lilo: Good point.

Also I had this thought onlee a few days back. What if the ACARS checklist has a step in the checklist which says turn the knob 90 deg clock wise and 180 deg anti-clock and 90 clock wise or some such thing which would not be an happenstance. This might turn on some other backup system that might transmitting more elaborate data because it is a clear indication that somebody (an would be hijacker for example) is trying to get around ACARS. You might ask why not this should be on all the time? But end users need some privacy too, no? Also if somebody sweeps the plane for bugs etc. these transmissions would not show up since the mode is turned off under normal circumstances.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 20 Mar 2014 03:39

VikramS wrote:Regarding the Rig. You can make one for 2-3K. 5 LCDs are < $1K. Controllers are a couple of hundred. 1.5K gets you a nice desktop with some fancy dual graphic cards.

Real graphics cards (GPGPU grade say W9000 from ATI is around 2.5K which can handle two heads X 2) would be around $5K. The LCDs he has are quite large so 5 x $300 or so. I think a reasonably high end system that can simulate physically accurate dynamics can be configured nicely at about $20 K max including software, special controllers and the works (but not the hydrolic jacks etc).

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 20 Mar 2014 03:46

Re swift system $10 a flight, what are the number flights for 777 in its life time? Say the aircraft operates for 20 years ttaking to skies every day twice. We are talking $150K max. That is peanuts comapred to $300 million or so for a 777. It is ridiculous that Boeing doesn't throw this in.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 Mar 2014 03:51

Aviation Week news portal has accused Canberra of being unwilling to disclose whe-ther its Jindalee Over-The-Horizon Radar (OTHR) system had tracked the flight.

While it said the super radar had an official range of 3,000km, the Royal Australian Air Force system is reportedly able to reach further into the South China Sea.

It claimed that the facility could even pick out the type of aircraft taking off from Changi International Airport in Singapore.

Read more: Could vital info be Down Under? - General - New Straits Times http://www.nst.com.my/nation/general/co ... z2wS5zBtHf

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 20 Mar 2014 04:29

Listen, the simulator theory is pure unrefined sun-dried boar tripe. It is so silly I am amazed at the traction it has gotten. It does not deserve reflection. A captain with 20k hours is above suspicion in these cases. Leave it at that. It could be a lapse a la AF447, but there is no conspiracy there.

This plane wont be found. We will continue to see worse and worse passanger facing measures.

If something is found floating, its worse for the authorities. Consequently nothing will be found. Take all this searching as practice for next natural disaster that can not be hidden.

The relatives need to be sent home with respect. And a private company assigned tio the search a la sunken trrerasure. Anything else is waste of resources that could be used to make the surviving families whyole.

jmt 2c.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Mar 2014 04:54

Airliners are notorious beancounters. Any and all fuel savings is their motto when it comes to day in day out operations. For this, most of the stuff is automated, which leaves pilots very little actual flying to do. Hand flying is still, even in boeings where automation is not to the same level as airbus', not like the old days of stick and rudder and hand flying all the way. These planes have autothrust, autoland, autotrim, auto everything to save every last bit of fuel. So if you're a very experienced pilot or a very dedicated pilot who wants to keep your hand flying skills up to notch, which you'd have no way to practice in your day to day flying and boeign simulator time at the airliner's facility limited, have enough dough (given your level as a sr captain in the airliner with its associated high salary) a pc based flight sim rig is small change. Plus he posted his sim videos on youtube apparently. Not exactly clandestine.

Heck, there are kids who have car racing sims at home running iRacing sim whose setups are into the thousands. A fanatec rennsport cockpit alone costs $1K. Add a 3 LCDs and you'll get to $2k before you even get to the computer needed to run the damn thing. That might work out to another $1-2K depending on your setup if you build it yourself.
So having a nice sim at home doesn't automatically paint you as the culprit. As a suspect? Sure. But then everyone is.

saip · Post by **saip** » 20 Mar 2014 05:06

CNN was saying there is a 24X7 monitoring of Drealiner 787 but not of 777. They showed some control room of Boeing where they said 787 are monitored round the clock but then again the system could to turned off by the operator. For older planes like 777 there is no such capability

Rajagopal · Post by **Rajagopal** » 20 Mar 2014 05:23

Rajiv Lather wrote:Am not wanting to go after the captain, he may well be a nice gentleman. But when I first heard of the plane disappearance and read up on it; my mind immediately picked up the word "flight simulator" and it looked out of place. 53 year old, almost 30 years of flying, logged 18,000 hours, still flying the 777 regularly and yet he hasnt had his fill ? Add to this the fact he is a tech geek and not only that, he is good with his hands and loves to tinker with electronic stuff. My point being he possesses a very impressive and unique skill set.

Therefore, if this chief pilot did hijack the plane, the flight simulator and his tech skills, both played an important part to make it possible.

The first question Sherlock Homes would ask is "How old is the simulator setup?"

If the simulator has been setup recently, it begs to question why a Pilot with 18,000 hrs of flying experience would suddenly need "flight training".

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 20 Mar 2014 05:41

Rajiv Lather wrote:Am not wanting to go after the captain, he may well be a nice gentleman. But when I first heard of the plane disappearance and read up on it; my mind immediately picked up the word "flight simulator" and it looked out of place. 53 year old, almost 30 years of flying, logged 18,000 hours, still flying the 777 regularly and yet he hasnt had his fill ? Add to this the fact he is a tech geek and not only that, he is good with his hands and loves to tinker with electronic stuff. My point being he possesses a very impressive and unique skill set.

Suppose the 370 was hijacked and suppose all the tricks, twists and turns did take place. Would any average airline captain be able to pull off this incredible feat ? My answer - No. Because an average pilot will not possess the skill set required to do all the fancy tricks with the instruments as well with navigation and flying. It takes someone special to fool and confuse practically the whole world.

Therefore, if this chief pilot did hijack the plane, the flight simulator and his tech skills, both played an important part to make it possible.

This is quite silly Rajiv.

Just as you don't have "your fill" of breathing, flying is more than a skill. Those who are not interested in going through the excruciating adventure it is to even earn a commercial license will never understand why one takes up such a profession. Each hour of flying adds roughly an hour on the ground and an hour in shuttling-around on average, being very conservative. This gentleman's experience totals to 6-7 years continuously dealing with machines alone! You don't do this without a deep attachment. This simulator bit is childish. There are thousands of FBOs around the world where you could do much better practice with simulators, you don't need one at home for nefarious purposes. And you wouldn't put it on YouTube! They didn't find this setup by some sherlock holmes tactics.

Regardless of the role the pilots played, in this case, this line of inquiry is roughly comparable to shouting medical malpractice against an expert surgeon before the autopsy has been completed. A hundred patients will shy away from similar surgeons, and similar number of individuals will doublethink their own career choices. This line of reasoning leads to "every male is a molester" and therefore can not go to disney world unless they have a child of their own to go with them!

Some things are best not even hinted until there is concrete evidence proving them. This is one of those.

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 20 Mar 2014 05:45

A_Gupta wrote:
Aviation Week news portal has accused Canberra of being unwilling to disclose whe-ther its Jindalee Over-The-Horizon Radar (OTHR) system had tracked the flight.

While it said the super radar had an official range of 3,000km, the Royal Australian Air Force system is reportedly able to reach further into the South China Sea.

It claimed that the facility could even pick out the type of aircraft taking off from Changi International Airport in Singapore.
Read more: Could vital info be Down Under? - General - New Straits Times http://www.nst.com.my/nation/general/co ... z2wS5zBtHf

I doubt that that radar can provide any useful track data. Backscatter radars are notoriously imprecise; they are basically useless for anything other than early warning.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 20 Mar 2014 06:12

My 2 cents that was also partly discussed on TV: there was a decompression before leaving Malay airspace just after "all right, good night" and all passengers died almost instantly. The decompression also blew out the power to the ACARS and transponder. The cockpit began to decompress too but at a slower rate and the pilot instinctively hit the reprogram keys to turn back with autopilot but passed out before he could enter the full return course. The plane flew the new course through a gap between Great Nicobar and Banda Aceh and continued until it ran out of fuel somewhere South of Male in the Maldives. The entire path would be clear of both radar cover and habitation until the Maldivian fishermen saw it a while before it hit the water. The timelines have changed every couple of days and I wouldn't give them more weight than the eyewitness accounts of the Maldivians. JMHO.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 20 Mar 2014 06:12

So RMAF had a flight of 29s on ADA. Where was this flight when the PSR saw MH370 veering of course. Why was there no CAP and no intercept?

Backscatter radars are wonderful but not magical devices. I would be quite surprised if there is anything from JORN that is usable. No harm in looking. A better bet might be ship based radars that sometimes just happen to be in places you least expect them.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 20 Mar 2014 06:20

Was a ransom demand made to someone other than the Malaysian Govt.?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Mar 2014 06:50

I learned to read & write at Age 3, but even yesterday I practised reading and writing. I MUST be a terrist

you mean ... Debbie Bone of "You Light up Life" fame

Honey, if u don't recognize the significance of "Debbie Does Dallas", I am way too well-brought-up to explain such things on a family forum like this

Let me just put it this way: Debbie, an all-American icon, was certainly not the girl hu thought F***ing was the capital of China.

As for Boeing having a whole division dedicated to monitoring the health of every 787, no wonder, the things are suspected to experience spontaneous combustion, sudden computer failure, etc etc. and they are horrified that one day they will find out that the composites are delaminating. No hijacker with any sense would hijack one of those for another few years: its just too dangerous. There are way too many 777s in operation to enable that sort of baby-sitting.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Mar 2014 07:29

AoA! I am informing See Enn Enn that I saw a low-flying plane with 2 engines and wings and tails on Saturday March 9 at around 9AM. It had its flaps down like a vulture coming in to land. I reborted to Bolis but they have not done anything, Say, can I get this houri to come and interview me on my yak, like she interviewed this fisherman on his boat?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Mar 2014 07:31

There are tens of thousands of flights per day - all of which are monitored pretty much from takeoff to landing, especially on routes that do not take them over radar black holes. Someone (Rohitvats?) posted a link that showed how flights pass close to Male even though it is not a "straight line" from origin to destination. I presume that is a factor for safety. Those air lanes are monitored for weather and other hour to hour events that aircraft have to cope with every single day precisely so that any untoward events can be managed. When accidents happen on known flight routes the planes are found very soon - immediately, most often.

Here we have a flight that should have stayed on a well used and well monitored track. Turns out that the "monitoring" was faulty in the first place. Malaysian ATC did not worry enough. The Malaysian air force did not worry enough.They dropped the ball. A flight changing course may or may not be due to hijacking or terrorism but it a flight does disappear or change course an air force (if available) and military (primary) radras need to be alerted immediately. Malaysia has failed to do that.

When reports say that the switching off of transponders and change of course were "deliberate acts" it means that so called "experts" have had a chai biskoot session in which they have tried to guess all the accidental events that could cause transponders to be switched off and course changed partly before and partly after co pilot said good night. I think we and other media have covered just about every possibility CT or non CT.

Now Malaysia and the relatives are clutching at straws. Unless debris is found no further progress will occur but lax countries like Malaysia need to buck up just like a lax US woke up after 9-11.

Has anyone seen one single statement from Malaysia that says that the flight is missing AND that the passengers are now presumed dead. There is a difference between having hopes and being pragmatic and realistic. the Malaysians are buggering about. Things have got so bad that it has become impossible to Google for technical information like transponders or Rolls Royce engines without getting the top 50 links to this MH 370 story. This thing has overwhelmed the media. It should not be so.

The Malaysians are behaving like incompetent idiots who are trying to atone for errors by initially pretending that everyone else has also been fooled by a very clever hijacker and now they are pretending that they are being "extra careful". Malaysians appear less competent than I expected - given that I have met Malays who clearly claimed great superiority over me in the 1980s when Malaysia had a car called "Proton and India had no India designed car.

Does this incompetence have no limit? If 12 plus countries are searching for debris then it means that people are dead. Is it not possible to admit that and express regret? Amazing how different cultures behave when their system is stressed.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Mar 2014 07:40

Harpal Bector wrote:So RMAF had a flight of 29s on ADA. Where was this flight when the PSR saw MH370 veering of course. Why was there no CAP and no intercept?

Backscatter radars are wonderful but not magical devices. I would be quite surprised if there is anything from JORN that is usable. No harm in looking. A better bet might be ship based radars that sometimes just happen to be in places you least expect them.

MiG-29s are expensive to fly and the RMAF were attempting to offload their MiGs for some time. Further, when USN F/A-18s exercised with them, the RMAF pilots were quoted as saying they appreciated the chance to get some flight hours. Whilst they are a competent force, I doubt they are on war footing 24/7 AFs in more volatile zones are.

Net, not really set up for a proper radar/QRA response until they anticipated trouble.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 20 Mar 2014 07:46

A_Gupta wrote:CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/19/world/asi ... nes-plane/
Malaysia says Maldives story is false.

Mega Maldives airlines operates 767s (mostly on China runs) and has a red and blue livery so maybe this is what confused the Maldivians. Mega Maldives flight 189 from Beijing is scheduled to arrive at Male at 640 am on Saturdays, so this is the flight that may have been seen. (Heil Google)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Mar 2014 07:47

Shiv, it could just be that the Malaysians are overwhelmed and simply don't know what to do.However the angry response from insiders like Arun Prakash supports your theory they are playing around.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 20 Mar 2014 08:15

Australia just reported finding satellite imagery of something in the IOR. Theyre sending aircraft and ships to it.

sadhana · Post by **sadhana** » 20 Mar 2014 08:18

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/140320/w ... earch-area

Hunt For MH370: India assigned new search area
Sridhar Kumaraswami | March 20, 2014, 01.03 am IST

New Delhi: Malaysia on Wednesday further widened the area of search and asked India to search for the missing Malaysian Airlines aircraft in the southern Indian Ocean 5,000 nautical miles south and south-west of the Indonesian Capital Jakarta, even as China is reported to have sought permission from India to send four Chinese warships to Indian waters in the Andaman Sea to search for the missing plane.

The Indian Navy confirmed the Malaysian request to New Delhi to search the waters of the southern Indian Ocean for the missing aircraft.

India is now resuming the search for the missing plane after suspending search operations for three days on the request of Malaysian authorities.

Meanwhile, according to news agency reports, China has sought permission from India to send Chinese warships including a salvage vessel and two frigates into Indian waters in the Andaman Sea to locate the plane.

According to these reports, the Centre will consult the armed forces on the matter and take a decision since it may not want Indian naval assets in the Arabian Sea and near the Andaman and Nicobar Islands to get exposed to Chinese warships.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had also assured his Malaysian counterpart of “all assistance” by Indian authorities on Sunday.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Mar 2014 08:22

partha wrote:Malaysia seeks FBI's help to recover deleted data from pilot's hard disk. What happened to "Malaysia rejects US offer of help in investigation" H&D show just a few days back?

Recovery of such data is a very routine procedure.

This is specifically being done to preclude (international) public criticism of a malay government led coverup.

They must be very very jittery with the cheeni breathing so heavily down their necks....

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 20 Mar 2014 08:27

UB Saar
Thanks I got it
I did meet Debbie

she did (sing) light up my life
She also did (sing)

" Now I've had the time of my life
Never felt like this before
......
...,,
And I owe it all to you"

Meanwhile IAF Israeli Air Force has changed SOPs learning from MH 370 episode/saga
Did IAF wake up as well?

sadhana · Post by **sadhana** » 20 Mar 2014 08:28

http://stream.wsj.com/story/malaysia-ai ... flight-370

Australia Satellite Imagery Locates Two Objects That Look Like Parts of An Aircraft
Australia Prime Minister Says Search Aircraft Dispatched to Area, Expected to Arrive Soon

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Mar 2014 08:29

Guys breaking news. CNN is reporting that Aussies have announced that they have found debris that could potentially be of the missing plane. They say that this was deep south in the Indian ocean off the western coast of Australia. Its apparently based on satellite imagery.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 20 Mar 2014 08:31

^^^
More details
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... earch-zone

Australia’s prime minister says that “credible” information has been received about two possible objects related to the search for the missing flight.
The information was based on satellite images and an Australian air force jet has been dispatched to the area.
The announcement comes shortly after Australia’s maritime agency halved the search area off the western coast of Australia to an area of approximately 300,000 square kilometres.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Mar 2014 08:32

I say this Aussie find is a tad more credible than the crap the Chinese put out. Just by the look of it.

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 20 Mar 2014 08:39

CNN is also confirming reports if sighting of possible debris of MH370

Key word used identified

saip · Post by **saip** » 20 Mar 2014 08:45

Could be real thing. Cant imagine Aussie PM going out on a limb and announcing this in their parliament if he is not confident of the info. But how did the plane ever get there?

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 20 Mar 2014 08:49

So JORN didn't pick this up?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Mar 2014 08:52

Will wait and see if this is another undersea event.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Mar 2014 09:00

Karan M wrote:Shiv, it could just be that the Malaysians are overwhelmed and simply don't know what to do.However the angry response from insiders like Arun Prakash supports your theory they are playing around.

Fair enough Karan. I accept that they are overwhelmed. But to my mind their attitude has been one of being lackadaisical and in denial - starting from the demand some years ago that terrorism can have no link to Muslims. There might have been, in my assessment, a feeling that since they are both an "Asian tiger eastern economic miracle" and Islamic, they are above all the things that might happen to other lesser nations. This attitude, if true, was waiting for a massive boot up its backside. That might have happened now. Recall that Indonesia has been wracked by terror and Thailand, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia have seen much violent strife, some of it related to recent Islamic extremism.

The lazy manner in which they ignored a plane disappearing and an Air Force that simply slept through followed by absolutely no contrition or candour - we have a nation that needs a rough wake up call.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Mar 2014 09:04

the real capabilities of JORN must be quite good, since the americans are involved and the chinese are trying to copy it for ASBM work.

everyone except india is trying to get into this field. we have shunned this as a CBM with china and pak it seems

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Mar 2014 09:04

The criticism I have head about Malaysia in the past is that Chinese and Indians do the labour. Bumiputras reap the benefits and rule. In this case utter incompetence has come from elite bumiputras.