Indian Army: News & Discussion

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 14 Jun 2010 05:08

sanjaykumar wrote:India does need to match the west in its regard for the troops' comfort.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 277034.ece

Most surprising!

If the youngest lot is so fat, then I wonder how they train?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 14 Jun 2010 07:58

Army warning on networking sites, officials posting info to face action

The Army has told its officers to keep off social networking sites and refrain from posting sensitive information like their rank, unit or posting location on the Internet. The instructions follow a spate of cyber attacks targeting military personnel and fears that foreign agencies could be tracking networking sites like Orkut and Facebook to home in on Army officers.

The instructions ask officers and soldiers to immediately delete all existing information, including their employment in the Army, which they may have already uploaded.

...

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 15 Jun 2010 20:05

Is Indian Army being 'deliberately' weakened?

The Army is already playing an active role in both Kashmir and the North East and now it may be called upon to contain the Naxal menace also.

In the midst of this turmoil the Army, which is the sole savior and sentinel of the nation''s integrity, is facing a grave challenge from a number of forces that are trying to weaken its intrinsic fabric.

Whether this is part of a grand design or the machination of different powers and lobbies who have their own axes to grind, cannot be ascertained, but what is very obvious is that the cumulative effect is quite alarming.

The increasing involvement of the Army in quelling social and political dissent in the country provides the first and most critical chink in its armour.

Interestingly, the divisive ideologies of Islamic Jihad and Maoism that the country has to contend with are direct imports from its two neighbours, China and Pakistan. ...................

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 16 Jun 2010 21:51

Sagem delivers Sigma 30 artillery navigation and pointing systems for Indian Pinaka MLRS

Sagem has completed delivery of its Sigma 30 artillery navigation and pointing systems to the first two regiments in the Indian army deploying the Pinaka multiple launch rocket system (MLRS).

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jun 2010 03:19

DTI :: June, 2010 :: Indian Army Slog Through RFI Jungle

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 18 Jun 2010 12:14

I hope this is not too OT, but it seems important

Pension for Arunjit

...
What entitled Arunjit to a pension from the defence department? His father, Diwan Ranjit Rai, was in command of 1 Sikh, the most famous battalion of the Indian Army when he was dispatched, post haste, along with two of his companies, to save, if possible, the Srinagar airfield and the town from the advancing tribal hordes. He accomplished this task with remarkable skill and daring. Alive to the historic nature of his mission, he acted well beyond the call of duty and in the process laid his life.
...

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 18 Jun 2010 12:43

^^^I am posting this in full here so that it can be archived and everybody who reads this page, reads this:

Pension for Arunjit
by Harwant Singh

ARUNJIT was barely four years old when he suffered a head injury, which put an end to his mental growth. While he grew into his fifties, his mental faculties remained that of a child of four years. Although there was nothing childlike or childish in his behaviour and to a casual observer he appeared almost normal, he needed constant nursing and attention.

His mother was widowed at an early age and drew a pension from the defence department. When she died some years ago, Arunjit being handicapped, was entitled to a pension based on some rule the British had wisely framed to help such cases. The pension department of the defence required a certificate from civil surgeon stating his medical condition and his inability to make a living.

Now civil surgeons don’t give certificates unless some “authority” asks them to examine the case. With the help of some local contacts and an understanding staff at the Sector 16 hospital, a full medical board was constituted which confirmed Arunjit’s medical condition and opined that he was totally incapable of making a living.

However, the pension authorities were not satisfied and now wanted to know his IQ as determined by a psychologist. The Sector 16 hospital had no means to test the IQ, but agreed that the results of tests carried out in the military hospital would be acceptable towards issue of an appropriate certificate. A long letter explaining the special nature of the case and Arunjit’s entitlement for treatment in a military hospital was sent to the commandant. While the psychologist at the military hospital within minutes of testing, concluded that Arunjit’s mental age was that of a four-year-old child, yet he decided to grill him with endless series of tests for a few more hours, which was a painful experience for Arunjit. His IQ was recorded as 19 (30 IQ is the lower limit for anyone to look after himself, leave alone make a living) and based on these tests the psychologist at the Sector 16 hospital gave the necessary certificate.

Yet, the pension authorities were not satisfied and required another certificate. This time from the “appointing authority”. Now who could be the appointing authority for Arunjit and to what appointment was he placed; as a mentally challenged person ! Only God could have appointed him in that condition. No clarification was forthcoming from the pension people. Then we suggested that, “appointing authority” may actually be, “appropriate authority,” which the pension people reluctantly accepted. Now in this case the appropriate authority, they said, is the Army Headquarters(AHQ). But why AHQ? Anyway, AHQ declined to give any such certificate. May be they felt Arunjit could make a living, perhaps by taking to begging!

While this endless struggle, spread over four years, to get him his due pension was still on, Arunjit was taken seriously ill and had to be rushed to the military hospital, where at first, he was refused admission because the authorities there felt he was a non-entitled case, though they knew that he was entitled to a pension from the defence department. Then there was a letter from the previous army chief stating his entitlement to treatment in a military hospital and yet another letter earlier sent to the commandant at the time of tests for determining his IQ, giving his background and entitlement.

All that was of little avail and nothing could move the hospital staff. Some pull, push and a jack got him into the military hospital. But the surgeon went away before the appointed date for his operation and the authorities decided to discharge him. So when his sister went to meet him, she found him slumped in a wheelchair in the verandah, rather than in his bed. He had been discharged in the morning. This ejection from military hospital was followed by desperate rounds of some private hospitals. In his condition, this to and fro shifting was too much for Arunjit and he gave up life gasping for breath.

What entitled Arunjit to a pension from the defence department? His father, Diwan Ranjit Rai, was in command of 1 Sikh, the most famous battalion of the Indian Army when he was dispatched, post haste, along with two of his companies, to save, if possible, the Srinagar airfield and the town from the advancing tribal hordes. He accomplished this task with remarkable skill and daring. Alive to the historic nature of his mission, he acted well beyond the call of duty and in the process laid his life.

In fact, by saving the airfield he saved the Srinagar valley. He was the first officer of the Indian Army to lay down his life in the defence of J and K and also became the first recipient of Maha Vir Chakra (MVC) in the country. Arunjit was his only son and the rules entitled him to a pension and treatment in a military hospital. His pension never came through and authorities at the military hospital never reconciled to his entitlement. Bureaucracies, civil or military, are equally heartless, pitiless and cussed.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 18 Jun 2010 13:29

Raja Bose wrote:^^^I am posting this in full here so that it can be archived and everybody who reads this page, reads this:

Usually while we are accustomed and acclimated to societal corruption, still there will be some instances where we really feel depressed, helpless and hopeless. No words to describe my emotions, end.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Jun 2010 14:38

Bureaucracies, civil or military, are equally heartless, pitiless and cussed.

Amen to that

jai · Post by **jai** » 18 Jun 2010 15:38

"Pension for Arunjit"

What a shame; but why am I not surprised....

trushant · Post by **trushant** » 18 Jun 2010 18:02

Yup ..Lt Col. Dewan Ranjit Rai was a 1948 war hero...but the nation couldnt take care of his only son...shame on us.
Unfortunately there are and must be many such tragedies that have befallen the family members of the deceased/handicapped soldiers.. are there any groups working for supporting such family members? I know there are institutes run by IA for rehabilitation of disabled soldiers but what about the dependents of deceased soldiers?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Jun 2010 19:47

Indian Army gets Mobile NBC Contamination Analysis Station from DRDO

“Mobile Contamination Analysis Station (Mobile Lab)” developed by DRDO for rapid detection of contamination caused by NBC agents was handed over to the army in a ceremony held today at DRDE Gwalior. Installed over 8×8 TATRA vehicle for cross country mobility, the the system armed with state-of-the-art technologies and equipment developed by DRDO labs will be of immense use for armed forces, though it can also be used by civil authorities.

Added Later,

One old photo of the NBC Mobile Lab in action clicky

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 20 Jun 2010 18:43

Centre may amend AFSPA, Army could lose cover

wig · Post by **wig** » 20 Jun 2010 19:20

shocking story of the child of the great war hero Lt. Col. D R Rai, MVC.
horrid that he was denied assistance by such banal excuses

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 20 Jun 2010 19:41

Centre amending the AFSPA is bullsh!t. The separatists who have been clearly guilty of numerous murders get to walk around free while Army personnel gets hauled up to a kangaroo court??

I have had enough of MMS!!!

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 20 Jun 2010 19:58

Dont revoke the act,but amend it ,so that it becomes useless and powerless in future!!
They(NBC) are trying to bring army into their dirty spiral of ineffectivity...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jun 2010 20:36

Gerard wrote:Centre may amend AFSPA, Army could lose cover

This is part of the many bullshit confidence building measures that the porkis have been insisting upon.

They have in fact asked for complete removal of the AFSPA.

They are sure to find kindred souls in the MMS dispensation who would agree to so hobble the Armed Forces.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 20 Jun 2010 22:13

while we continue bashing this action we continue to ignore the ills it has created over the past decades. We continue to alienate our own people in Kashmir and the NE.

The Army and the paramilitaries have commited enough sins under this act to warrant an amendment.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Jun 2010 22:14

rkhanna wrote:while we continue bashing this action we continue to ignore the ills it has created over the past decades. We continue to alienate our own people in Kashmir and the NE.

The Army and the paramilitaries have commited enough sins under this act to warrant an amendment.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 20 Jun 2010 22:18

RKhannaji,

The army punishes those who genuinely indulge in human rights violations. When the army says AFSPA is sacrosanct and absolutely necessary in its present form, sacrosanct it must be. Just see how the security forces fare against maoists without AFSPA. Should the army be reduced to the level of a police force with hands tied behind ? Sri Lanka crushed the LTTE when it removed all constraints on its armed forces.

The Kashmir valley is full of separatists who must be crushed with an uncompromising iron fist. The nation state must stop pandering to human rights activists and such subversives. It it humiliating to allow J&K police to prosecute army officers for "fake" encounters without seeking MOD's permission. At this rate, every encounter will be termed "fake" with officers being prosecuted for unintentional collateral damage. This is unacceptable. Except for genuine fake encounters where there is overwhelming evidence, the benifit of doubt must always be with the jawans and officers. Whatever the local people think.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 20 Jun 2010 22:35

RKhannaji,

The army punishes those who genuinely indulge in human rights violations. When the army says AFSPA is sacrosanct and absolutely necessary in its present form, sacrosanct it must be.

I come from a long line of serving and ex Indian Army officers dating back to WWII. i get to hear things which sometimes dont sit easy with the stomach. As of today i no longer trust nor believe the Army in what they find absolutely necessary with respect to the AFSPA. as for the army punishing those genuinely guilty.. i am sorry i take that with a pinch of salt as well. Wonder why the UNHRC and others like amnesty continue writing scathing reports on the army's conduct. The main bone of contention (in my opinion) is that of accountability of the armed forces to an outside body. i.e civilian courts. The army is not in a state of war it is doing essentially armed policing duties on our own civilians. And they have indeed commited a number of acts that are unbecoming the armed forces. A simple google will tell you that.

Just see how the security forces fare against maoists without AFSPA.

That is attributed to pure Incompetence . Nothing else.

Should the army be reduced to the level of a police force with hands tied behind ? Sri Lanka crushed the LTTE when it removed all constraints on its armed forces.

Can you tell me where the AFPSA has actually "helped" where the current anti terror laws wouldnt have helped the army in its COIN? As far as Sri lanka goes. Have you seen the civilian body bags that came out? the mass executions and mass graves? Is that what you want the IA to do in Kashmir and NE. again i say this. They are Indian citizens. The "Seperatist" movement may get help from outside but we as a country (establishment) have given them (naxals, kashmiri,maoist) enough reason to send them to that side. AFSPA furthers those reasons and further isolates the very people we want back in the fold.

The Kashmir valley is full of separatists who must be crushed with an uncompromising iron fist

The kashmir valley is also full of simple hardworking honest Indians who get caught in between. what about them? Sometimes this iron fist does not distinguish between the two. By mistake and sometimes also on purpose. when do we say that the cost is too much to bare? When do we eventually start rebuilding Kashmir. Yes we can continue passing the buck to pakistan and continue a culture of escalation but there will be no end to it.

a decade plus of AFSPA and the situtation is pretty much the same. Maybe its time for a different approach. or atleast an Ammended one.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 20 Jun 2010 22:50

At some point of time the normalcy need to return. If the Army can not do it without AFSPA, what hope the civilian police force can have? AFSPA can not be the answer for long. At some point of time, Army should be able to handle it without AFSPA and then it should be handed to the MHA and other civilian forces. That is how the success of counter-insurgency operations and progress should be measured - not just by some numbers like how many terrorists were "halal"-ed etc.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Jun 2010 22:57

I expect a surge in anti-state activities and dilution of effectiveness of IA once the AFSPA is diluted. I also expect that, gradually the count of loss of forces w.r.t. anti-national events will go up.

What the hell, MMS only loses sleep over a certain kind of individual.

skher · Post by **skher** » 20 Jun 2010 22:58

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Man-enoug ... 60347.aspx

It was Arunachal Pradesh home minister Tako Dabi who sent the proposal to the Union home ministry, defence ministry and the Planning Commission. His reason? “Most eunuchs do not have families and can be selfless… Many of them are physically fit. Yet you find many of them indulging in anti-social activity. A military career will give them a respectable livelihood,” Dabi told HT.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 20 Jun 2010 23:00

rkhanna wrote:We continue to alienate our own people in Kashmir and the NE.

I always find it amusing that some Indians think of these people as "our own people" !

What do you mean by "our own people" ? The Kashmiris sure as hell don't consider the rest of India as "our own people"! They'd sooner side with Pakistan or even the Taliban than consider "Hindu" India as "our own people". This fallacy of considering them Indians and thus siding with them against "our own" jawans is the one of the cardinal misconceptions with India's liberals. They are NOT "our own people"! You should not consider them equal to say Indians from Tamil Nadu or Indians from Maharashtra or even Indians from the Andamans. They do NOT subscribe to our culture, they do NOT value our ideals of democracy, equality and liberty and they DO NOT appreciate our founding fathers nor they associate themselves with our history. Why should I consider them any more than unwanted citizens of India ??

Kashmir generates less tax revenue than even Bihar yet requires enormous amount of money to be spent on them. Per capita I doubt you can find a state that is more draining on the average hard working tax-paying Indian than the fundamentalists of Kashmir. What exactly have they done to deserve the status of "special autonomy" from the rest of us Indians ? Why should the rest of India stand by and watch our jawans ( who actually work and pay taxes and have families in the REAL India ) be berated for doing their jobs by every Abdul or Ahmed who one fine days decides to accuse some random jawan and make his life miserable !?

The only real change in law should be to the law of citizenship, where these unwanted and unproductive people are stripped of the privileges and rights that the Indian constitution grants real INDIANS and allows the GoI to deport Kashmiris and others troublemakers out of Indian territory permanently so that they can never come back.

This amending of the AFSPA in favor of the fundamentalists and the terrorist sympathizers of Kashmir and the NE is against the will of the Indians living in the REAL India because it is a vehicle to attack the Indian military and paramilitary who's duty is to keep us safe from the terrorist brethren of the Kashmiris. If these amendments do go forward, the military will be less inclined to do what is necessary when dealing with terrorists for the fear of legal prosecution or dismissal from his service. In the end, it only goes to serve the interests of the Fundamentalists in Kashmir and the terrorists in Assam to show the India and the Indian state as convicted criminals and help them win a media war against India.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 20 Jun 2010 23:03

RKhannaji,

Why should we give any credence to the UNHRC/amnesty regarding what they write about our army ? These organisations should simply be viewed as tools of forces that want to subvert our sovereignity and bring us in line with the "international community". We should pursue our national interests single mindedly : not caring for what canada/amnesty/UNHRC think of us.

Without AFPSA, the military would indeed, as brando says be inclined to do less than is necessary. Minimum force will be even more sacrosanct than it is today, and anti-nationals will be able to cause more casualties in the army than otherwise. The army is not going on an election campaign. It is there to crush threats to the state.

As far as Sri Lanka goes, they finally protected the sovereignity of their state: and decisively so. The ends justify the means. If ruthless methods help, they should be adopted. Separatism cannot be treated lightly.

Maybe we have to endlessly keep doing this. At least, today , the armed forces have brought violence under control. Why loosen the grip when it is tight ? As time flows, the central police forces should take over these responsibilities, leaving the army free for its primary duty: maintaining readiness for war if and when it is thrust on us.

as for rebuilding kashmir: let them stop protesting against the security forces at every single opportunity for starters.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 20 Jun 2010 23:09

According to the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA), in an area that is proclaimed as "disturbed", an officer of the armed forces has powers to:

* "Fire upon or otherwise use force, even to the causing of death, against any person who is acting in contravention of any law" against "assembly of five or more persons" or possession of deadly weapons.
* To arrest without a warrant and with the use of "necessary" force anyone who has committed certain offenses or is suspected of having done so
* To enter and search any premise in order to make such arrests.

It gives Army officers legal immunity for their actions. There can be no prosecution, suit or any other legal proceeding against anyone acting under that law. Nor is the government's judgment on why an area is found to be "disturbed" subject to judicial review.

Yes i can see how the Army will be ineffective if those "powers" are removed. Why dont we simply classify those areas as a war zone and get on with it.

But ofcourse we will not talk about the wrongful extrajudicial killings, the abductions, the rape and looting that has also taken place with remarkable regularity under the cover of this act.

Ironically statistics will show the violence has actually increased after the implementation of this act which btw was first written in 1958. This act is also the common point for escalation all around.

Food for thought

http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/resources/armed_forces.htm

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 20 Jun 2010 23:11

Rkhannaji try to understand,, there is agreement not only outside India but also in India that there had been some crimes in the past because of this act ,rest assured,there will be more of it in future as well.
so the problem is the act .
then it must be removed completely ,isnt it?
Well thats not happening. Like every other law in this world this act also have some plus and minuses, and will remain so.But in case of India and most of the democratic countries, the system allows the criminals to escape from law and thats what will happen in these 'sensitive areas'. So the real bashing is not for/against the law but the people who abuse it, either in favour of the army or this recent action going to be taken by govt which will allow anti-national elements to abuse it .
So the bootom-line is that army loves it as it is. So either remove it or let it remain as it is, but dont let bs NBC minds to change it ,because we know there are many problem makers who want it ineffective ,because of these amendments

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 20 Jun 2010 23:14

RKhannaji,

So, for the sake of "winning people over", are you advocating that we compromise on the army's effectiveness and allow them to be sitting ducks for the terrorists ?

after all, there would have been no escalation had we simply allowed those who want to secede to secede, no ? But that would reduce our great, sacred motherland to the status of nations like canada/ west european countries that exist merely as machines to provide a "good standard of living" with no ambitions towards being great powers. Our civilization deserves better.

Also, why do you even quote from organizations whos clear agenda is to weaken the state ?

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 20 Jun 2010 23:16

^^^^^^^^
rkhannaji: Great to learn about your illustrious heritage , although am not too sure whether that can be conflated to your expertise regarding AFSPA and the circumstances of its imposition.
Just wanted to therefore, point out a couple of key aspects:
The Army does not always seek the cover of the AFSPA. Whenever the Army is deployed for short duration in circumstances of riot control or action against ASEs (anti-social elements), the Army very well knows its bounds and does not seek to hide behind laws like AFSPA. Just ask your friends in cities like Belgaum, Hubli, Jalgaon and in the past in cities like Meerut, Hyderbad etc., whether the Army sought AFSPA on those deployments.

AFSPA is imposed when the Army is called out , after the Police and the Para-Military forces have been routed/ pushed back. Hence, the administration , usually has very limited means to enforce the CrPC, simply because the force that would impose the magisterial powers and prerogatives , i, e the Police has been either driven off pushed to the rim. Moreover the AFSPA is usually imposed on states that are undergoing a long running counter insurgency and counter terror campaigns run by organised terrorist groups, usually externally supported. Hence, in these circumstances, the Army is left to do the policing role; a role for which it is not "really" mandated. Now given the circumstances of deployment- externally supported CI; the means available to the army- troops trained for combat with an external enemy and the absence of police and magisterial expertise and norms, requires that the security force, in this case the Army, has a minimum modicum of legal power and cover. In its gist, AFSPA is really imposed when the other "normal" legal codes have failed! Finally , force deployment provisions are like a ladder- Police followed by Armed Poilce followed by CRPF followed by BSF followed by hand wringing followed by even more hand wringing followed by total collapse of administration followed by induction of Army. I think most people would agree that when a force is being deployed it must be provided certain means to enforce its mandate; hence, the requirement for AFSPA. It is grossly unethical to deploy a force without legal cover or atleast a modicum of indemnification.

Now coming to misuse of AFSPA provisions- the misuse is not so much by the Army; infact, there was a significant press report a week or so back which proved that 97% of all cases that were imposed on the Army by various HR orgs and NGO's came out to be false! Not too surprising in the frraught atmosphere of Kashmir! The real issue is the total collpase of the judicial system where the state courts either let-off terrorists or the cases drag on for ever. This is the case in Kashmir and parts of NE. In cases where the judicial system is more active, it is quickly cowed down-dont know whether you are old enough to remember the murder of trial judges in Punjab in the late 80's?

Removal of AFSPA will only lead to a dysfunctional criminal justice system being saddled with a lot more criminal cases, a lot of them frivolous and a total collapse of the law enforcement mechanism. When the state/central govt. finds the will to assert itself, it will lead to greater "encounters" by police and will thus, lead to a back to square one situation!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jun 2010 23:17

rkhanna wrote:
I come from a long line of serving and ex Indian Army officers dating back to WWII. i get to hear things which sometimes dont sit easy with the stomach. As of today i no longer trust nor believe the Army in what they find absolutely necessary with respect to the AFSPA. as for the army punishing those genuinely guilty..

rkhannaji,

So do a lot of guys on this forum. Some dating back unbroken to before WWI and earlier campaigns. Not a big deal but one doesn't normally mention such things if secure in life.

If you no longer trust nor believe the Army who do you believe? Some motivated religious nut head NGO?

Every time the Army wants to go in for the kill in the NE, its some anti national politicians who spike it and let the jehadis get away.

You have well known politicians who have overt and covert links with the baddies.

The fundamental job of the Army is to fight as directed on the BORDERS. The internal shit is not to be piled on their plates.

You cannot ask someone to do a job without the necessary tools. Otherwise let the para military forces and the police who are firmly under the control of the crooked politician get the job done. Their approach perforce has to be different from that of the police.

The Army is trained differently. They will not pussyfoot around but will shoot to kill as lethally trained. Some collateral damage? Tough shit. The last I heard, the Army doesn't use rubber bullets. The cops do.

Murder? Thats one definition and one is most welcome to it.

If such were my opinion and I had such a illustrious family as you claim, I would certainly have my food tasted at family gatherings by some kind NGO before I waded into it.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 20 Jun 2010 23:21

rkhanna wrote:Yes i can see how the Army will be ineffective if those "powers" are removed. Why dont we simply classify those areas as a war zone and get on with it.

But ofcourse we will not talk about the wrongful extrajudicial killings, the abductions, the rape and looting that has also taken place with remarkable regularity under the cover of this act.

It may not be a war zone but it most certainly an area of hostilities with terrorists so it can't be considered in the same league as some residential colony in south delhi.

With regard to abductions and killings etc, today, with the assistance of the local police forces, the Army is more than capable of policing itself, after conducting an internal inquiry of any particular incident. And military justice is far more effective than civilian penal system without giving the fundamentalists a media victory or making it a media circus that ends out slandering the Army. Self regulation is the best way for the Indian Army to keep up the level of pressure on the terrorists while at the same time enforcing better discipline from its soldiers. All it needs is a mechanism to do so and the ability to do so, without getting the media and the politicians to make every allegation into a circus!

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 20 Jun 2010 23:23

BTW rkhannaji, are you yourself a human rights activist ?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Jun 2010 23:23

Lets cut the unfounded allegation by third party with vested interests in giving the Indian state a bad name, if any thing wrong has happened, armed forces will take care of it. If it has not been taken care of it has not happened.

Some third rate gora might as well spend worrying about what their own forces do, which is plenty.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Jun 2010 23:29

ramdas wrote:BTW rkhannaji, are you yourself a human rights activist ?

Small request, lets not demean the word "human rights" by associating it with the kind of views rkhanna spouts.

Possible and more accurate alternatives are, "western funded ngo worker", "special interest group for anti IA operations worker" etc etc....

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 20 Jun 2010 23:30

RKhannaji,

Why should we give any credence to the UNHRC/amnesty regarding what they write about our army ? These organisations should simply be viewed as tools of forces that want to subvert our sovereignity and bring us in line with the "international community". We should pursue our national interests single mindedly : not caring for what canada/amnesty/UNHRC think of us.

Fine..what about Indian Human Right organizations? Or are they simply antiestablishment tree huggers?

Without AFPSA, the military would indeed, as brando says be inclined to do less than is necessary. Minimum force will be even more sacrosanct than it is today, and anti-nationals will be able to cause more casualties in the army than otherwise. The army is not going on an election campaign. It is there to crush threats to the state.

yet the threat has not gone and continues to grow. So this act and the army have essentially failed to achieve anything . Its time for a change. A new perspective.

As far as Sri Lanka goes, they finally protected the sovereignity of their state: and decisively so. The ends justify the means. If ruthless methods help, they should be adopted. Separatism cannot be treated lightly.

End justifies the means? Yes separatism cannot be treated lightly. But the suspending of civil liberties for over 2 decades and denying your own people constitutional rights is a far bigger crime. no wonder separatism persists. Not to mention that It is US Indians who have alienated the NE people and the Kashmirs since Independence. We NEVER included them into mainstream India so why wouldnt they want to separate. The Solution is not to kill off the entire population to retain territory.As for the what the SriLankans did. That was extermination plain and simple. A War Crime that too state sponsored. I did not know that butchering men women and children was OK in the name of the state.

Maybe we have to endlessly keep doing this. At least, today , the armed forces have brought violence under control. Why loosen the grip when it is tight ?

Has it.? Most papers i have read on the subject show that violence and death rates have actually increased decade on decade.

As time flows, the central police forces should take over these responsibilities, leaving the army free for its primary duty: maintaining readiness for war if and when it is thrust on us.

The Paramilitaries like the Assam Rifles, etc commit more crimes than anybody. Now you are leaving them with a decades worth of culture that it is okay to do what you want.

as for rebuilding kashmir: let them stop protesting against the security forces at every single opportunity for starters.

Why? It is their constitutional right to Protest the stripping of their civil Liberties. I want the right to protest against my country, my government and whomever i wish to protest against- That does not make me anti Indian NOR does it make me unpatriotic. Are you telling me kashmiri Protests are without merit? Simply put i want my governemnt and all its institutions held accountable to me (the public) ..Is that too much to ask in a democracy?

For decades we have done the armed policing bit. When will we eventually start tackling the real issues that actually alienate these people. Just see home much influence the Naxals are gaining (in terms of territory) or the Moaist. We have a very discriminated and disgruntled population. We continue ignoring that it is going to blow up in our face.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 20 Jun 2010 23:39

Yes, indian human rights orgs are anti establishment elements working on an external agenda.

Your new perspective would be : allow separatists a free hand in killing our army soldiers. Nothing else. Sorry. The AFSPA as of old is better than these "new perspectives". One "new perspective" could be:allow those who want to secede to secede. No point in new perspectives for there own sake.

Civil liberties etc are OK only in those areas where state sovereignity is not under threat. State security should have priority in disturbed areas. Sections that take to separation deserve no civil liberties.

Right to protest should never include right to say "we want freedom from India". Democracy or not, such people deserve no civil rights. They deserve living under the AFSPA as it is today. Forever if need be.

Do not insult the army by saying it has failed. With the AFSPA, it has brought violence under control. Wanting AFSPA amended means that you want the army to fall prey to terrorists. It means you are an anti-national yourself.

As for accountability, the state shld be accountable to real Indians. not separatists chanting "down with India".

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 20 Jun 2010 23:43

rkhannaji
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/postin ... 3&p=891644

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 20 Jun 2010 23:53

Mr. Ramdas. Now you sound like one of the pakis on their forums. "Everything anti-govt is supported from outside".

Anyways i see a lynch mob coming. My only point is that the Armed Forces need to be held accountable for their actions. They are not the boy scouts. The AFSPA has not really worked. We need to find a new way instead of an Archaic law written in 1958.

I am not a social worker, nor do i work for an NGO . (love how i know that was coming lol) Its just that i grew up and stopped idolizing our armed forces and started respecting them instead.

I am a realist. and Ironic isnt it that insurgent activities such as the naxals , etc seem to be spreading not stopping. Last map i saw they were active in nearly 28% of India (territory wise). Hmmm.. wonder why so many people in our country are growing angry with our government. The use of force sure is working isnt it? Our country is reaching a crises point. And we need to fix it fast.

Small request, lets not demean the word "human rights" by associating it with the kind of views rkhanna spouts.

Possible and more accurate alternatives are, "western funded ngo worker", "special interest group for anti IA operations worker" etc etc....

mr sanku. you do not know me . know nothing about me. yet because i choose to critize one aspect of an indian law and the way the army has conducted itself i suddenly becoming anti IA and you choose to attack me instead of debating. very mature.

Tell me . Why cant i love my armed forces and be free to critize them at the same time? I am just calling a spade a spade. you however are free to call me whatever you want.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 20 Jun 2010 23:58

="Samay"]Rkhannaji try to understand,, there is agreement not only outside India but also in India that there had been some crimes in the past because of this act ,rest assured,there will be more of it in future as well.
so the problem is the act .
then it must be removed completely ,isnt it?
Well thats not happening. Like every other law in this world this act also have some plus and minuses, and will remain so.But in case of India and most of the democratic countries, the system allows the criminals to escape from law and thats what will happen in these 'sensitive areas'. So the real bashing is not for/against the law but the people who abuse it, either in favour of the army or this recent action going to be taken by govt which will allow anti-national elements to abuse it .
So the bootom-line is that army loves it as it is. So either remove it or let it remain as it is, but dont let bs NBC minds to change it ,because we know there are many problem makers who want it ineffective ,because of these amendments

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fair enough. But this has been going for for 20+ years with no real result. Do we keep going down the same road expecting a different result.? When do we say this is not working? I mean we arnt fighting a COIN in some other country. This is our country. This thing has to end with India winning. Not keeping the cycle going on and on.