Managing Pakistan's failure

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harbans
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by harbans »

From the Dawn article you missed out some of the comments by Indians:
Anoop says:
June 25, 2011 (2 days ago) at 5:59 am

These gloom and doom articles should be banned for spreading fear among people. Pakistan as a country is not going anywhere anytime soon. Even if we look at your options, I can guarantee you If something really drastic happens to Pak, India would be the first country to offer help in anyway they can.
bharat says:
June 24, 2011 (3 days ago) at 4:52 pm

I have no doubt all those who wish to move to India will be let in. Afterall we are one people – when a kid is born he/she is human first then anything else. Why would Pakistanis be not welcomed in India?
Now i am sure not only we will allow the unwashed, unreformed hordes to descend in, but we will allow them to put conditions too for us allowing them in. Punjab, Rajasthan, Himachal, Kashmir and Delhi will be flooded.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Manish_Sharma »

RajeshA wrote: .......
Let me explain the background for my post:

At the time of partition porki population was around 3.5 crores and now after 65 years is around 19 crores which means an increase of 6 times.

The same goes for bangladesh which had a population of around 4 crores and now around 20-21 crores again and increase of 5-6 times.

While after partition India's population was 33 crores which after 65 years is 120 crores an increase of just 4 times. Which means that IM population must have grown by the same rate as porkis, maybe more 'cause porkiland has a law that man is allowed only one marriage compared to IM who is allowed 4.

Around 1996-97 Nawaz Sharif had written to ISI that porkistan should develop friendly relations with India just like bangladesh so they can also flood India with their population like bangladesh is doing. Later Kargil happened and all that so the Nawaz vision got buried somewhere thanks to musharaff.

Now Imagine a porkistan of 35 crore population imploding in 2050, where will the population go? Afganistan, Iran no they don't have the resources to support it. We can't dream of India armymen shooting at refugees from this pagalstan walking towards India, no unimaginable.

so imagine population scenario 2050 in Indian subcontinent:

Porki : 35 crores

Bangladesh : 40 crores

IM : 45 crores


That's 120 crores muslim population in the subcontinent.

All that would be needed is an Aytollah Khomeini or Mullah Mehdoodi to call for a unified Islamistan. Even if 2 crores of IM come out on roads to demand unification what can we do about it.

There can't even be a civil war as thanks to Urdu Bollywood, WKK propaganda and Left dominated education the extremely dhimmified non-abrahmic population will just not be ready for it. Add to that hmmmmm the pressure by UK, US, Japan and the KSA. Wiping the corner of their eye our leadership will accept it with sad face.

All thanks to WKKs like Kuldip Nayyar, Manmohan Singh and RajeshA like people.

No the only option is Tripurantaka option given by RamaY:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripurantaka
The moment the three aerial cities converged, Shiva mounted on his chariot and moved upwards. He took out his bow and arrow, and hit the converged cities with a single arrow. With Brahma as the charioteer, he sped across, and shot a single arrow of fire, which was created of none other than Vishnu. The cosmic arrow destroyed the three cities.
All we do is deal as less with porkis as possible, seal the borders. As we grow rich we need to grow 1000 warhead inventory. Before imploding porkis are going to give a last shot at India with nuclear attack. India should be be ready with 400 warheads to obliterate porkistan and also 90 warheads for bangladesh + all the oilfields of Middle east. That is the only option for Indic civilazation to survive.

The marriage and other small chess moves are just going to completely wipe out the legacy of Maharaj Bharat completely.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Manish_Sharma »

My answers are in maroon:
RajeshA wrote: The proposal is meant for a scenario after Pakistan has already fragmented and failed, when inflation becomes rampant and there is hardly anything called Pakistani government. It will be open season for the various factions in Pakistan. This scenario is a direct result of economic failure in Pakistan, which is very probable.

Nope the ISI will remain even after the economic failure of porkis, they'll just find some other sheikh than OBL to fund them. And their strategy will change a bit towards getting their population into Indian territory.



Secondly upto 96% of Pakeezahs we talk about would be coming from the lower layers of Pakistani society, and not from the die-hard Pakistaniyat layer of RAPE, the Well-Off and the Middle-Income Group.

The system comes inbuilt in all these people from whatever walk of life they are from. Not just from rich class.

So whereas one would expect, the ones from RAPE, Well-Off and the Middle-Income Group to try to introduce their Pakistaniyat-Venom into the Indian society, one shouldn't be expecting that from the 96% of Low-Income Group and Poor Pakeezahs. In the Low-Income Indians, men are still men!!! :) , and not like Dutt and Bhatt sahibs.

So yes, over the other 4% we will have to keep an eye!

Keep an eye on !! Keep an eye on !!! What on earth we'll do by keeping eye on them. Even if you catch them doing something wrong their protective channels NGO, NHRC, Shabana Azmi the left and conParty not to forget the media will come to their help shouting "witch hunting". Just like Seelampur, New Seemapuri in Delhi is getting jampacked by Bangladeshis supported by bangladeshi son in law of CM Sheila Dikshit.


One can't have the whole building on fire, and hope that one's apartment would escape the inferno!

Wrong example, one building is Bharat the other is Pagalstan, it is the other building on fire no our own. Your example would be right in context of Bharat on fire so how can one apartment Punjab or Bengal be safe, bangladeshis and porkistan are other building so let them be on fire all we need is armed sentries posted to prevent them from coming in our own building.

We should be pro-active, and not huddle ourselves under a blanket. Why this fear of Islam, of Pakistan? Let's go in and deal with it! Why do we give the Pakis more credit for shrewdness than we give ourselves! Are we all too stupid to deal with Pakistan?!

Why this obsession with suaristan? Their is the whole world to be connected with, which should we dirty ourselves by wrestling with pig in shittistan?

We will hunt the pig, take the pig by its balls and then roast it!
:rotfl: by marrying to their pakeezahs? :rotfl:

The only thing unresolved is how to hunt the pig!
No its very very clear here:http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... ra#p765708
Manish_Sharma wrote:Image
^
I have not taken the army locations in the above map as I could not get them and it was getting too much congested anyway. So what I have taken is POPULATION, INDUSTRIES AND AIRBASES.
Yellow STARS are = 6 warheads of 25kt each.
Blue STARS are = 3 warheads of 25kt each.
[UNSALTED OF COURSE BECAUSE OF CLOSE PROXIMITY TO US & THERE IS NO HIMALAYAN LIKE CHINA BETWEEN US TO PROTECT].

Image
Above in case of SA I have taken the AIRBASE TARGETS as their AF is going to come helping porkis.
Each Orange Star = 2 warheads of 25kt. One Cobalt and One with Gold 197 isotop.

The whole point of making these maps was to get an idea of number of targets + number of missiles and warheads would be needed. Perhaps it may help if someone writes a scenario.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ShauryaT »

Manish_Sharma wrote: All we do is deal as less with porkis as possible, seal the borders. As we grow rich we need to grow 1000 warhead inventory. Before imploding porkis are going to give a last shot at India with nuclear attack. India should be be ready with 400 warheads to obliterate porkistan and also 90 warheads for bangladesh + all the oilfields of Middle east. That is the only option for Indic civilazation to survive.

The marriage and other small chess moves are just going to completely wipe out the legacy of Maharaj Bharat completely.
Manish_Sharma ji: why do you not complete your scenario, by stating that every Muslim in India too, should be obliterated! How many crores will that be? :evil:
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Agnimitra »

Another article related to possibility of Islamist coup in Pakiland:

The real face of Hizbut Tehrir
Theo_Fidel

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Manish,

The real question why you don't have a plan to convert them to your 'one' true faith.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Manish_Sharma wrote:All thanks to WKKs like Kuldip Nayyar, Manmohan Singh and RajeshA like people.

<snip>

The marriage and other small chess moves are just going to completely wipe out the legacy of Maharaj Bharat completely.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Manish_Sharma, when you first responded to a post of mine, you made a lasting impression.
Manish_Sharma wrote:
RajeshA wrote:
Manish_Sharma ji,.....
Shri Rajesh a request, I would be grateful if you don't address me with 'ji' as it is turkish/persian term as explained by Brihaspati Mahoday!
Here's my response to your bhasmasura post.

<sarc>
BTW, I think you are as WKK as they come. It is because of people like you that Bharat Mata would go down. Do you know that in the next 50 years the whole of Europe would be Islamized. In your post you have thrown away all our nukes, and we have no nukes left for Europe. How stupid can one get?
</sarc>
:lol:
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Prem »

At least Manish is telling Poaksurs,Bakasurs, Mayavis and Pinnocchios about the perspective consequences of their collective vomit next door to us.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Manish_Sharma »

ShauryaT wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote: All we do is deal as less with porkis as possible, seal the borders. As we grow rich we need to grow 1000 warhead inventory. Before imploding porkis are going to give a last shot at India with nuclear attack. India should be be ready with 400 warheads to obliterate porkistan and also 90 warheads for bangladesh + all the oilfields of Middle east. That is the only option for Indic civilazation to survive.

The marriage and other small chess moves are just going to completely wipe out the legacy of Maharaj Bharat completely.
Manish_Sharma ji: why do you not complete your scenario, by stating that every Muslim in India too, should be obliterated! How many crores will that be? :evil:
No the scenario is complete, first of all BD and porkistan population are conditioned to see India as separate country and enemy to let them in the country would mean they are coming in (from their point of view) an enemy country. While IM may have gripes but they don't see this country as enemy.

Plus even if 30 crore muslims get to be 6 times in 60 years, 80 crore others will have at least grown by 4 times..........
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Manish,

The real question why you don't have a plan to convert them to your 'one' true faith.
For that we'll have to become converters like abrahmics thus self-destroying our own identity of letting everyone chose their own "Moksh Marg".
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Prem »

[quote="Manish_SharmaNo the scenario is complete, first of all BD and porkistan population are conditioned to see India as separate country and enemy to let them in the country would mean they are coming in (from their point of view) an enemy country. While IM may have gripes but they don't see this country as enemy.
Plus even if 30 crore muslims get to be 6 times in 60 years, 80 crore others will have at least grown by 4 times..........
[/quote]
They can also occupy the soon to be empty territories on behalf of India and indianize islam itself .
Last edited by Prem on 27 Jun 2011 22:31, edited 1 time in total.
Manish_Sharma
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Manish_Sharma »

RajeshA wrote:
<sarc>
BTW, I think you are as WKK as they come. It is because of people like you that Bharat Mata would go down. Do you know that in the next 50 years the whole of Europe would be Islamized. In your post you have thrown away all our nukes, and we have no nukes left for Europe. How stupid can one get?
</sarc>
:lol:
Hmmmmmmmm, when all your "great visions" are exposed point by point, you hide behind sarcasm.

Hiding your obsession with porkistan/WKKism under posts like

"We will hunt the pig, take the pig by its balls and then roast it!"
to cover the fact that you want porki women becoming part of Indian Nation. Keep on giving your great visions O great visionary. :rotfl:
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ShauryaT »

Manish_Sharma wrote: No the scenario is complete, first of all BD and porkistan population are conditioned to see India as separate country and enemy to let them in the country would mean they are coming in (from their point of view) an enemy country. While IM may have gripes but they don't see this country as enemy.

Plus even if 30 crore muslims get to be 6 times in 60 years, 80 crore others will have at least grown by 4 times..........
Hence why waste time in reconditioning, when you can obliterate? Is this the rationale?
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by saip »

Which means that IM population must have grown by the same rate as porkis, maybe more 'cause porkiland has a law that man is allowed only one marriage compared to IM who is allowed 4.
I never understand the logic of this though. I mean it is the women that produce and so it is very likely that if one man marries more women then the production per woman would go down. Say one man one woman produce ten children, it is unlikely that one man and four women would produce 40 children. Afterall it is the man that has to support all these kids.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ShauryaT »

saip wrote:
Which means that IM population must have grown by the same rate as porkis, maybe more 'cause porkiland has a law that man is allowed only one marriage compared to IM who is allowed 4.
I never understand the logic of this though. I mean it is the women that produce and so it is very likely that if one man marries more women then the production per woman would go down. Say one man one woman produce ten children, it is unlikely that one man and four women would produce 40 children. Afterall it is the man that has to support all these kids.
Add to it his facts are wrong. TSP men can have up to four wives, as ordained by Sharia.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Manish_Sharma wrote:Hiding your obsession with porkistan/WKKism under posts like

"We will hunt the pig, take the pig by its balls and then roast it!"
to cover the fact that you want porki women becoming part of Indian Nation. Keep on giving your great visions O great visionary. :rotfl:
And you are hiding your WKKism by not bombing Europe! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

So Manish_WKK_Sharma,

If you say, keep on giving wagerah wagerah, why do you bother with my posts at all... Ignore me then!

You can certainly express your "visions", without referencing what I have to say!
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Manish_Sharma »

ShauryaT wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote: No the scenario is complete, first of all BD and porkistan population are conditioned to see India as separate country and enemy to let them in the country would mean they are coming in (from their point of view) an enemy country. While IM may have gripes but they don't see this country as enemy.

Plus even if 30 crore muslims get to be 6 times in 60 years, 80 crore others will have at least grown by 4 times..........
Hence why waste time in reconditioning, when you can obliterate? Is this the rationale?
Can you imagine anyway to first occupy them, then control them, and condition them, plus avoiding their disease to spread in desh.................... in anyway is possible? No its beyond recovery, there are only two solutions:
1.) Finish them of.
2.) Accept on the lines of "what we can do" maybe something will happen in next 100 years, or even if India becomes Islamistan so what? better then obliterating two countries.

There is no third way.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Manish_Sharma »

RajeshA wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:Hiding your obsession with porkistan/WKKism under posts like

"We will hunt the pig, take the pig by its balls and then roast it!"
to cover the fact that you want porki women becoming part of Indian Nation. Keep on giving your great visions O great visionary. :rotfl:
And you are hiding your WKKism by not bombing Europe! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

So Manish_WKK_Sharma,

If you say, keep on giving wagerah wagerah, why do you bother with my posts at all... Ignore me then!

You can certainly express your "visions", without referencing what I have to say!
Because your crusade of sneaking in more and more porkis in Bharatvarsh has to be checked from time to time. You are spraying ideas of getting this poison in desh on the lines of lies told again and again and people start believing them as truth.

So friend I'll keep on coming back to give a zen stick on your head from time to time.

As for now your marriage idea lies in tatters, so time to think up some new way to somehow sneak in porkis under a grand strategy! :wink:
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Manish_Sharma »

ShauryaT wrote:Add to it his facts are wrong. TSP men can have up to four wives, as ordained by Sharia.
No they have to go through special permission, they can't just take a second wife that is why Shoib Malik was in trouble as he was already married. He could have been jailed.

http://www.law.emory.edu/ifl/legal/pakistan.htm
Polygamy: constraints placed on polygamy by requirement of application to the local Union Council for permission and notification of existing wife/wives, backed up by penal sanctions for contracting a polygamous marriage without prior permission; husband�s contracting polygamous marriage in contravention of legal procedures is sufficient grounds for first wife to obtain decree of dissolution
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:Hiding your obsession with porkistan/WKKism under posts like

"We will hunt the pig, take the pig by its balls and then roast it!"
to cover the fact that you want porki women becoming part of Indian Nation. Keep on giving your great visions O great visionary. :rotfl:
RajeshA wrote: And you are hiding your WKKism by not bombing Europe! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

So Manish_WKK_Sharma,

If you say, keep on giving wagerah wagerah, why do you bother with my posts at all... Ignore me then!

You can certainly express your "visions", without referencing what I have to say!
Because your crusade of sneaking in more and more porkis in Bharatvarsh has to be checked from time to time. You are spraying ideas of getting this poison in desh on the lines of lies told again and again and people start believing them as truth.

So friend I'll keep on coming back to give a zen stick on your head from time to time.

As for now your marriage idea lies in tatters, so time to think up some new way to somehow sneak in porkis under a grand strategy! :wink:
Manish_Sharma,

if you could calculate, you would know that my idea would have killed more Pakis, than your idea, and that too without all the radiation. So my bhasmasura is longer than yours. :P

If you as a man don't have the confidence that you can keep your woman in check, then that's your lack of confidence, but don't project it onto others. I am sure most Indics think differently and would be able to Dharmicize their Pakeezahs.

And you still haven't answered how you are going to kill all the world's Muslims, e.g. those in Europe!

Your "proposals" remind me of caricatures, one see all over the comics and cartoons world, e.g.!

Image

I am putting you on my ignores list! You have the distinction of being the first one there. Nice knowing you!
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Putting me on ignore list? Ok hide if you want to. Now what can anyone do to a coward like you, except show compassion.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Sanku »

Just for my two cents, although I admire RajeshA-ji for his attempts to form new solutions in current situation I would like to say that I suspect it will come to Tripurantaka solution in the end.

I dont see a solution otherwise, the hatred is too deep.

Just my two cents.

Also I really wish you two guys did not have to put each on ignore list (or one way list or whatever) please debate, but I really think we all benefit by a idea exchange between you too, done in a "slightly" less hot manner.

Humble request, kindly consider.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Thanks Sanku for your words full of wisdom. You are right, from now onwards I promise you there won't be any hot words from my side.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by A_Gupta »

Even more than the seizure of land, wealth, and forced conversion with regard to religion and way of life - the cry that awakens the most resistance is - "they are taking our women".

If you think about it, there are solid Darwinian evolutionary reasons for that.

So, if you all are planning such, it had best be hidden from public view. Out in the public, it will create the most visceral and intense opposition so as to cause you to fail.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Manish_Sharma »

^^Many many years ago we had a Sikh family as neighbours to us, very generous and loving people. They got a bangladeshi woman working in the house. She was from a very very poor background and I still remember her eating whatever was cooked in the house and they were packing some food for her 3 children too.

This Sikh family loved to eat mutton and it was cooked at least twice a week and sometimes even three times. Since the meat was coming from corner "kachaa jhatakaa" shop, she would refuse to touch it. Those days she would not eat or takeaway food since it was not halaal. This is the level of conditioning these people have.

Now even imagine a 20 year old poor porkistani girl is married to a hindu man. Is it sure that she will forget all her conditioning and become hindu? As mother is the one who brings up children while the man is out earning. Imagine a News channel showing judgement on babri-ayodhya issue or Kargil issue, is she not going to explain the kids from her prejudice and condition them against hindus. Bam you have a Sanjay Dutt in the house, with hindu name and allegiance towards these ghazwa terrorists. That is what I am arguing against.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Sanku wrote:Just for my two cents, although I admire RajeshA-ji for his attempts to form new solutions in current situation I would like to say that I suspect it will come to Tripurantaka solution in the end.

I dont see a solution otherwise, the hatred is too deep.

Just my two cents.

Also I really wish you two guys did not have to put each on ignore list (or one way list or whatever) please debate, but I really think we all benefit by a idea exchange between you too, done in a "slightly" less hot manner.

Humble request, kindly consider.
Sanku ji,
when the other starts calling you names, what discussion can one have!
Manish_Sharma wrote:All thanks to WKKs like Kuldip Nayyar, Manmohan Singh and RajeshA like people.
Secondly if somebody picks up some corner of the proposal, deliberately misrepresents it, portrays my intentions 180° to my convictions, dares to calls me a WKK, I think the person doesn't deserve my indulgence.

Thirdly I am not even convinced he is not somebody from deafanddumb, who has positioned himself in the black and white corner of nuclear sarvanash extreme simply to pooh-pooh the attempts of all others on BRF to look for credible realistic solutions. That he got so worked up about Indians importing Pakistani women, is all the more indicative that he is a Paki deafanddumber. His manners in addressing other BRFites also hints at his Pakiness. The fact, that he did not want to be referred to with "ji", the way most Indians refer to each other in respect, is still another indication.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by sanjaykumar »

This Sikh family loved to eat mutton and it was cooked at least twice a week and sometimes even three times. Since the meat was coming from corner "kachaa jhatakaa" shop, she would refuse to touch it. Those days she would not eat or takeaway food since it was not halaal. This is the level of conditioning these people have.



Sikhs have the same type of code, not to eat halal.

Hindus don't even eat food prepared by certain other Hindus.


One huge sore point with Muslims is that Hindus and Sikhs in West Panjab would gladly eat other's food but both would decline Muslim refection. And these were supposed to be the inferior breeds of the Muslim lands.

I am aware of Sikh and Muslim kids forbidden to play with each other here in the West. I am aware of Sikh women being the god-mother to Hindu kids including personally.

These are prejudices with up to twelve centuries of cultural history.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Solving Pakistan: Solution 8

Close the Paki Factory
A_Gupta wrote:Even more than the seizure of land, wealth, and forced conversion with regard to religion and way of life - the cry that awakens the most resistance is - "they are taking our women".

If you think about it, there are solid Darwinian evolutionary reasons for that.
If the Pakistanis are left with no women to procreate with, then they will ultimately die off. Sooner or later their land too would then belong to us.

Can't say much about the wealth, because that is a commodity that is so fast disappearing from the middle class and poor section of Pakistan, that except for the zamindars, not many people would be having much money.

If one carefully reads the viciousness of the Paki anti-India vitriolic, one can actually taste their fear, that if Pakistan fails, or does not take India down along with it, the mango Abdul will simply change his deen as Indians move in. The Pakistani Elite and even the Mullahs are not convinced of mango Abdul's loyalty to Pakistan or even to Islam. They are afraid that the 175 million, who do not share the Central Asian lineage, but are Bhumiputras, would revert to their previous belief systems.

At some point, India would just have to use the brihaspati doctrine and clean up the stables.
A_Gupta wrote:So, if you all are planning such, it had best be hidden from public view. Out in the public, it will create the most visceral and intense opposition so as to cause you to fail.
In a previous post I did dwell a bit on how the whole operation can be kept a secret!

Expanding on ways to keep it a secret, the parents of the Pakeezah would just be telling the neighborhood, that their daughter has been married away to some Arab or some other Muslim abroad. Basically the lie would be repeated in every house in every locality, so there will be less suspicion.

In places like Kuwait, they don't even allow any Pakistani to enter. Pakeezah's parents can simply say their daughter has been married off to a Kuwaiti. Who is going to go and check?

If that lie comes out, due to some stamps on some letters, or the country code the parents use to telephone with their daughters, then they can say, they married the daughter to an Indian Muslim, but considering that Indian Muslims are not favorably looked upon in Pakistan, they did not wish to tell others.

Whereas in truth, the daughter would be married to an Indic, and bringing Indic children to the world.
RajeshA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Actually to understand Pakistan, we tend to look for complicated answers. If one starts dumbing down all the reasons, one would see that the dumbest, simplest of the reasons would fit Pakistan best.
The big question in the Indian Subcontinent has always been

"What religion should the Subcontinental people follow? Which religion is the better one?"

This is the core question.

We Indics, we Indians would differ. We would say, "No, that is not the core question. One can follow whatever religion one wants, as long as .....!" But then again, we are seeing the issue from our eyes, and not theirs. Indians have adopted "sarva-dharma sambhava" as a social motto and secularism as our political system.

But for the Subcontinental Muslims, especially the Pakistanis, and even Bangladeshis, that remains the key question.
SSridhar wrote:Dealing with India in the US-Pakistan relationship - Howard B. & Teresita C. Schaffer
What we see is that Pakistan needs to be assured all the time that they are just as good if not better, just as wanted if not more as India. It wants equality with India, because the Pakistani Elite needs to convince its flock, the millions and millions of Subcontinental Indics who converted to Islam, that their choice to convert to Islam was the right choice.

With India zooming past Pakistan, and with Pakistan fast losing all pretensions of being a modern state, the stability of India, the growing prosperity in India is causing extreme panic among the Pakistani Elite. So they keep on repeating for the consumption of the flock, stories about how in India there are no toilets, and how the Dalits are made to suffer, etc. All this is baloney, but in this age of limitless information, they are having a hard time showing that they are not losing.

Islamics thrive in war, Indics thrive in peace. India is not giving them war despite several provocations. Even if they get war, they are not convinced that they would win. But considering that they thrive on war, that is what they have to keep on preparing for, leading to an arms race, which leaves nothing more for anything else. For this reason, they have to keep on doing this or that superpower's bidding and then reaping the consequences.
chetak wrote:Cannot match India’s military might: Pak Def Minister
"If we only try to match them (India) militarily and buy the sort of armament which they have, we will probably not be able to afford it," Mukhtar said.

Explaining his contention, he noted that India's economy is "six to seven times bigger than" Pakistan's and its trade volumes were "five to six times greater".

"The capacity of India and Pakistan to fight was for 20 to 22 days. Now India has inducted a lot of armaments, may be they can last for 45 days, we will not be able to do so," Mukhtar said in an interview to BBC Urdu.
Now even their defense minister is saying they cannot compete.

As the appeal of India grows, the Islamics think, the converted masses would start asking, why did they convert. If they are the Muslims, why is Allah Tallah more generous to the Kaffir who did not convert, but stayed Indics.

So for them, the only way to prevent people from posing that question is the full Islamization of Pakistani society. If they do that, they are just digging a deeper hole for themselves, but they hope that if the hole is deep enough, no Indic would be able to pull the Muslim out of it, and the Muslim's world view would remain limited to that hole. So at least they will be able to "save the souls" of their flock, even if they couldn't secure that flock's future. Because they have few heroes of their own, the Pakistanis try to keep the spirits of their flock high, by telling them stories of their supposed ideological fathers to their West - in Arabic, Turkish and Persian lands.

So the fear of Pakistani and Subcontinental Islamic Elite is once India attains a developed status, an unassailable military might, and all-round acknowledged super-power status, the Subcontinental Muslims could go back to their original Indic belief systems.

We should note that the Indian Subcontinent is one place where Islam went up against a Kufr belief system and failed to secure domination. So they fear the strength of the ideology that spurned them and they fear the lure of such an ideology to attract back all those who went over back into its own fold, for the fold was never the pure one - one of the Muslim Master Races.

Those Indics who, in fear of the Pakistanis, want to isolate the mango Abduls from the winds of Indic influence, do not get it that the competition is not over yet. Those who converted, are still people whose ideological loyalty has not been sealed yet. The competition is over when one side wins and the other loses. When all of one ideology adopt the other ideology. Then the competition between the two belief systems would be over. Not before that.

We still have to make strategies on how to weaken the hold and appeal of the Islamics over the Subcontinental flock! This cannot be done through isolationism or nuking the others into extinction, but by playing the game, and by playing the game better than the others. Direct confrontation strengthens the others; whereas Prosperity, Soft Power and Better Defense strengthens us.

In the end, we may or may not win the Muslims into the Indic fold. But one thing is sure: the Islamics fear they will lose and that they would.
Sanku
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Sanku »

RajeshA wrote: Secondly if somebody picks up some corner of the proposal, deliberately misrepresents it, portrays my intentions 180° to my convictions, dares to calls me a WKK, I think the person doesn't deserve my indulgence.

Thirdly I am not even convinced he is not somebody from deafanddumb, who has positioned himself in the black and white corner of nuclear sarvanash extreme simply to pooh-pooh the attempts of all others on BRF to look for credible realistic solutions.
RajeshA-ji; based on what I have seen of Manish_Sharma's posts so far, I would be very surprised if he turns out be a dark horse. I have seen many of his views, and I do not think that there is "daal mein kala".

To me as a third person in the debate, it appears to be a set of simple misjudgment of intentions, on both sides, and resulting friction. Neither of you gentlemen are a "lobby" as far as I can see (there are two-three posters here who move in distinctly identified lobbies on each and every issue) -- so its unlikely that the disagreement is too deep or ideological either.

I think your suggestions are really too drastic (and I often think they are too long term as well) -- and I would not be surprised if people worry about them.

However my take personally has been that thought experiments dangerous or otherwise should be continue, as long as the author is not being "pig-headed" and is willing to consider criticism. Which you certainly have. So I think that Manish's view are not founded either.

So basically in my humble opinion you guys have managed to get hot on a misunderstanding. Happens, not a big deal, but I think best to throw the bad in the dust bin and move ahead with the good.

Shalom and all that.
Lalmohan
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Lalmohan »

i dont think the question of "why did we convert?" arises with people of the abrahaminical faiths
in this theology - there is only one right answer (i.e. god... but then they quibble about which prophet was the right one)
therefore if you've arrived at it (god), everything else is negated
and the thinking process is 'well ofcourse we converted and we've seen the light' but the ground realities show that things are not working to plan, but there is no theological alternative - which leads to cognitive dissonance
the jews never had a powerful position so they turned pragmatic a while ago
the x-tians discovered pragmatism only after centuries of blood letting amongst themselves - and now in their prosperous new avatars (on the western whole) they split into 'don't cares' and the 'xtian taliban'
the muslims haven't made this 'evolutionary step' as yet
RajeshA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Sanku ji,

I don't want to make it personal. He started the personal attacks. I don't really appreciate the equal-equal!

Perhaps Manish_Sharma would be able to contribute some less drastic solutions to BRF. I wish him luck!

My last word on the issue!
Sanku
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Sanku »

RajeshA wrote: My last word on the issue!
Thanks for responding sir, please dont take this to heart.
RajeshA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Lalmohan wrote:i dont think the question of "why did we convert?" arises with people of the abrahaminical faiths
in this theology - there is only one right answer (i.e. god... but then they quibble about which prophet was the right one)
therefore if you've arrived at it (god), everything else is negated
and the thinking process is 'well ofcourse we converted and we've seen the light' but the ground realities show that things are not working to plan, but there is no theological alternative - which leads to cognitive dissonance
Lalmohan ji,

Without going too deep into theology and psychology ...

According to the Islamics, as you pointed out, there is nothing wrong with Islam, and it is natural that others should convert to it.

But they too are all too aware, of how weak the human mind is and how slippery the human heart is, and so they worry, and so they fear. No matter how much rote learning they shove into the innocent minds of their kids, they still ask themselves whether it is enough. In fact, the reason they shove so much Islam into everybody is, because of the fear, that the individual would slip and land in Kufr Temples.

The human being is also not simply born to pray, he has many needs and desires. That fact, would always nag in the Islamics consciousness and make him worry.

And then on top of it comes the cognitive dissonance. The Dharmics really haven't gone on the offensive in proselytization. Should it ever come to pass, that cognitive dissonance stands on thin ice, and it would give way in the face of aggressive head-hunting by the Dharmics within the Muslim flock. That too worries the Islamic.

In Pakistan not more than 3% of the population really has had the honor of superior Arabic, Turkish and Persian genes. The rest are basically Western India SDREs. So the fear would remain!
Lalmohan
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Lalmohan »

well, the theology negates questioning and reason - (all three faiths); one must simply accept and submit to the will of a greater power. in dealing with the harsh realities of life, one must not seek meaning, but only ascribe it to divine will
in fact, it is this very feature that forces muslims into deeper and deeper contradictions without the ability to open up a line of rational thought. historically ofcourse many muslims tried, but with the political overlay, this rational 'movement' was snuffed out every time it emerged. the x-tians managed to break through this barrier and frankly - this is the biggest 'enabling contribution' to the west's rise to power in the last three centuries. muslims had it once, but with the fall of baghdad to mongol hooves and cordoba to the reconquista, they lost it - and the ottomans never built it back up. akbar probably got close to starting off the process in india... but...
RajeshA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Lalmohan wrote:well, the theology negates questioning and reason - (all three faiths); one must simply accept and submit to the will of a greater power. in dealing with the harsh realities of life, one must not seek meaning, but only ascribe it to divine will
in fact, it is this very feature that forces muslims into deeper and deeper contradictions without the ability to open up a line of rational thought.
Lalmohan ji,

I don't question the soundness of the theological and social structure to keep the flock in check. It may be the best there is. I simply question the ability of this structure to withstand the impact of reality of a prosperous India and a concerted Dharmic proselytization drive.

The theology may try to negate questioning and reason, but it is an altogether different question whether it will succeed for ever.
Lalmohan wrote:historically ofcourse many muslims tried, but with the political overlay, this rational 'movement' was snuffed out every time it emerged. the x-tians managed to break through this barrier and frankly - this is the biggest 'enabling contribution' to the west's rise to power in the last three centuries. muslims had it once, but with the fall of baghdad to mongol hooves and cordoba to the reconquista, they lost it - and the ottomans never built it back up. akbar probably got close to starting off the process in india... but...
Islamics cannot keep out the storm of information for ever. The rise of the once enslaved - the Indics, could give a very heavy blow to Subcontinental Islamics.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Agnimitra »

Lalmohan ji and RajeshA ji,
Good points, both.
Lalmohan wrote:but the ground realities show that things are not working to plan, but there is no theological alternative - which leads to cognitive dissonance
the jews never had a powerful position so they turned pragmatic a while ago
the x-tians discovered pragmatism only after centuries of blood letting amongst themselves - and now in their prosperous new avatars (on the western whole) they split into 'don't cares' and the 'xtian taliban'
the muslims haven't made this 'evolutionary step' as yet
But the ummah is now approaching that dialectic turning point... and this time as the underdog without an apparent escape route... and this time as underdog to more sophisticated civilizations (not Mongols or Turks). Therefore, all the more reason to engage with them, competing militarily and economically, but also to inject our ethics, philosophy and theology into their social discourse, and challenge theirs. The strategy needs to include, both, head and heart. After all, only dilwallahs carry away the dulhaniyas. :mrgreen:
RajeshA wrote:But they too are all too aware, of how weak the human mind is and how slippery the human heart is, and so they worry, and so they fear. No matter how much rote learning they shove into the innocent minds of their kids, they still ask themselves whether it is enough. In fact, the reason they shove so much Islam into everybody is, because of the fear, that the individual would slip and land in Kufr Temples.
True. At a mosque here in the US I saw an ad by IMs soliciting donations. Apparently there are cases of IM converts in Andhra reverting to Hinduism. The ad was desolately pleading for action and lamenting how these poor and semi-literate IM's were going back to "worshipping idols", just because they were given better social opportunities for education or marriage. However, the point to note was that these cases were from IM villages where most people hardly even knew the kalimah, much less the doctrines and a'amaal of Islam. I wonder whether penetration is possible in a well indoctrinated community, howsoever poor, and where they are in demographic dominance.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

I think at least part of this discussion is based on a lie which Pakis have used to pull the wool over our eyes. They have given others the impression that they are pious. They are not. They have debauchery crime and bestiality covered by a thin veneer of poverty. One of the reasons Pakis insist that they are "moderate" is that they are flouting all the mullahnic rules all the time. A lot of Muslims put on an air of excessive piety for the benefit of kafirs - as if they are pure and enjoying it. They are only enjoying fooling the kafirs. They are enjoying being impure, but what they enjoy more is pretending that they are pure.

The situation was very aptly described by an Iranina I met in the UK describing Iraqis to me at the start of the first Gulf war. He said - you go to a nightclub and you will find an Iraqi with a girl on each side and a drink in his hand - but when the roving waiter comes up to him with a tray of Salami sandwiches he will act as if he has been deeply offended and ask "Don't you know I am a Muslims. I don't eat pig". The buggers absolutely enjoy the pretence.

Let me give you a graphic example. There is a video of "Pakistan China friendship" on the net that desceibes the contempt of Chinese towards Muslim Uighurs and also a Paki mullah talking about pigs. He describes a whole lot of stuff about pigs and finally declares that they are homosexual. As soon as a he says that - a gora aadmi mulla who is shown gravely nodding his head instantly hides his mouth as if to suppress a smile - and manages to continue looking non silly - but the body language is compelling. See for yourself -the bloody frauds

Start watching from 2:34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWiwy_iRTwA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Agnimitra »

^^^ Shiv ji,

When it suits them they will mock oaths of celibacy (for example) in other religions and thank Allah for allowing the pleasures of life within shari'ah. When it suits them they will take up austerity for jihad -- as long as they are seen to be doing so. This sort of exhibitionism (tazaahor) has its two sides.

They want to be seen to be members of a sect that is doctrinally more robust, politically more powerful, religiously more self-righteous, and socially more sexy. The thing is that they play the exhibitionistic hypocrisy even amongst themselves, and so we have sectarianism and also the "extremist"-"moderate" divide. To say "no" to someone gives one a sense of moral power.

Today, they must see themselves to be less powerful politically and scientifically; they must see themselves to be debauched or hypocritical or exhibitionistic; and they must see themselves to be socially ridiculous, such as when their women need to marry outside.

But their "new-and-improved" doctrines must also be challenged and exposed, because they are based on a charicature of the Other (other religions), and a simplistic understanding of the world and the hereafter. The duplicitious ideals and false promises have to be exposed. This requires direct confrontation and engagement by non-Moslems, whose beliefs and way of life are held up to ridicule and contempt by Moslems openly.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Lalmohan »

this contradiction between word and deed is quite fundamental in the radicalisation of western raised muslims - if islam was supposed to provide the answers then why is abbu/chachu night clubbing and drinking and grooming teenage white girls for the slave trade? another level of cognitive dissonance kicks in...
with so many internal contradictions, is it no wonder that islam is going through this tremendous spasm?
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