LCA News and Discussions

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 16 Sep 2011 15:33

imvvho this is where the situation stands==

HAL== High tech facilities available in some aspects...but not all aspects... definite trouble as far a large scale productions is concerned...

Private sector... Several defence related hi-tech facilities not available to them yet...

What can be done ?

Gradual progressive transfer of technology by HAL/DRDO to private sector ..till the sector becomes profitable on its own and can develop new technologies...eventually the private sector should be able to compete with HAL or DRDO..THAT WAY we can establish a military industrial complex...Khanland style ...

For eg.. NASA transferred satellite carrier tech to lockheed , boeing and spacex(an excelusively launch vehicle company)... if they had not done so , NASA today would have been a mere shadow of what it is..

HAL/NAL have began transferring some aspects to the private sector...

Can a debt fund for defence venture be established ? Just like infra ?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Sep 2011 07:33

Sid wrote:Is this "the" LCA thread?

I think so.. as long as the context is LCA, or that which aids LCA developments.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 17 Sep 2011 08:26

abhishek-nayak wrote:i have nothing against HAL or it's workers.I have both good as well as bad experiences at HAL.The criticism i made is not exaggeration but reality and if something wrong happens to HAL, then rest assured Indian airforce will be grounded immediately.Again i say i worked in Sunabeda division and not others.I never said HAL is bad.It's just a chalta hai type organization just like any other govt organization.It's neither good nor bad.

What is the solution?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Sep 2011 08:37

There are many solutions.. if we can find the problem identified. Now, the question would be what can you do about it? how much influence you have to correct a giant organization?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 17 Sep 2011 08:44

A lot gets corrected once it comes to public domain.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Sep 2011 08:46

BR is public enough right?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 17 Sep 2011 09:29

It has to come in press. Names, values, products, processes etc have to be published. Normally, in private/public/govt/ngo etc, every acts only if they feel the heat. There should be sustained responsible criticism.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 19 Sep 2011 09:57

Sid wrote:Is this "the" LCA thread?

I think so but correct me if I am wrong!!!!

K

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 19 Sep 2011 13:28

Any latest news on LCA?

Vikram W · Post by **Vikram W** » 20 Sep 2011 01:25

no news absolutely so far. I can't believe HAL was talking about popping out 1 LCA a month after the IOC. ( which we felt was too slow a production cycle time)

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 21 Sep 2011 06:17

ooh yeah... finally some news

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/09/b ... -bomb.html
Tejas set to bomb Pokhran & Chandan Ranges

Much ahead of India's Festival of Lights -- Diwali -- India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is all set to do carpet bombing in Rajasthan! A high-profile team of engineers, test pilots, scientists and ground crew from ADA, HAL, NFTC and IAF have already touched down at Jaisalmer in Rajasthan for the light and sound show. As this blog goes live, the Tejas pilots have already done recce flights ahead of their crucial weapon trials -- ringing in some excitement to the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) phase.
Sources confirm to Tarmak007 that PV3, LSP-1, LSP-2, Slp-3 and LSP-5 (five platforms from the flight line) have already reached Jaisalmer after a brief stopover at Ozhar Air Force base in Nasik for refueling. "The crucial weapons trials are all set to begin now. We are planning to drop 1000 pounds and 400 pounds bombs at Chandan and Pokhran Ranges," say sources.
This is for the first time that Tejas would be undertaking precision bombing at a range closer to Indian border. "These are very sensitive trials. We are looking to secure accurate positions and target parameters. We will move on to Leh and then to Goa from here, later this year. There has been delays post-IOC declaration (January 10, 2011) and we hope to set the record straight from here," sources said.
Over 200 people are part of this weapon trial at Jaisalmer. Tejas had earlier undertaken weapon trials in Goa and Chitradurga.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Sep 2011 06:50

LSP4 wasnt sent because it was meant to become a chase aircraft for LSP7 ... wish it were true

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Sep 2011 07:15

Vikram W wrote:no news absolutely so far. I can't believe HAL was talking about popping out 1 LCA a month after the IOC. ( which we felt was too slow a production cycle time)

I think that you may be recalling the positive news better than the negative. People have been warning time and again that HAL will have to figure out ways of mass producing items that were hitherto specially made in ones and twos for the prototypes. It was stated right up front in the beginning that this would be the next crunch point.

The biggest mistake made by Indians in high profile programs is actually giving out statements and timelines that are more accurate than +/- 12 months. This may seem surprising to us Macaulayised "stick to schedule" types - but absolutely no one in Indian business sticks to accurate timelines. No tailor, electrician, plumber, delivery man, builder, car mechanic, watch repairer or invited guest ever sticks to a timeline in India. This is a cultural norm for Indians. If you have 100 suppliers - each of whose products has to be installed serially, a delay of one day per supplier delays the whole by 100 days. Six month or more in terms of delays is normal for complex projects.

In Bangalore there is a Metro rail construction near where I live. A road was blocked for construction in Dec 2010 and I asked when it would be done. I was told "By June 2011". it is still not done and looks like it will take another 3 months. This is L&T doing the job here. Yediyurappa announced the first Metro run for March 2011. That was put off to October. Now it looks like December. It is a mistake to trust any timeline given by any Indian. After a decade on BRF I think it is high time at least some of us started understanding that.

Of course it is irritating and shows up our engineering competence in a very poor light. Or the incompetence is highlighted. The Mahindra NM 5 model was displayed in Aero India in Feb 2011. The first aircraft was built in March and flown by September. In Australia.

vina · Post by **vina** » 21 Sep 2011 09:37

A far better report in Al-Hundi

Key Tejas Weapons Trials Begin in Jaisalmer

The LCA will, for the first time, precision-fire 1,000 kg bombs at designated stationary ground targets using its laser designator pod for target acquisition. In all, 18 such bombs would be fired by these aircraft as part of the trials, aiming to hit targets in a one metre radius. It is, therefore, a significant trial for the aircraft,” a top source told The Hindu.

Coming up for the LCA after the weapon trials will be a swift hot-and-cold weather trial in which an aircraft taking off from Jaisalmer will fly straight to Leh, where it will have a series of flight trials. “It is likely to take place by November-end or in the first week of December,”

While the sixth Limited Series Production (LSP-6) aircraft, designed with special features, continues to strive to attain a high angle of attack, indicating the aircraft's agility, LCA Prototype Vehicle-1 (PV1) is taking on some electronic warfare (EW) features .

“At the moment, there is a lot of wiring going into the aircraft. Once ready, it will be flown to the Air Force Station in Gwalior, where its electronic warfare mettle would be tested,” said the source.

Hmm. Great news. We will see a decent Tejas Growler Electronic Attack aircraft being fielded soon! The things you can do if you have your own platform to fiddle around and do things. I cant imagine us doing this with an SU30 , even though we manufacture it. We didn't design it and cant modify it without the design knowledge to such an extent without Sukhoi, which will charge an arm and a leg and there will be no "secrets" left in such a sensitive thing if they were to do it .

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Sep 2011 10:37

Why dont any of these talk about the first flights of LSP7/8. IMO, that will open up the aircraft to the IAF, are they waiting for these current weapon trials to be completed so that the same software can be ported to LSP7/8 making it truly IOC capable? Btw, the news seems to be leaked to more than one journalist (tarmak and hindu), in such cases why do the sources prefer to remain anonymous ?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 21 Sep 2011 10:40

An electronic attack LCA would have to be hardened against its own radiation. This project indicates a lot of confidence in the hardening of LCA's avionics and control systems. Good news.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 21 Sep 2011 10:52

As stated by people at AI11, LSP7/8 flight was atleast a year away then. So Feb 2012 is when they would fly if that schedule still holds.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 21 Sep 2011 12:41

vina wrote:A far better report in Al-Hundi

The things you can do if you have your own platform to fiddle around and do things. I cant imagine us doing this with an SU30..............

This is the best complement and the best output of the Tejas program.

K

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 21 Sep 2011 13:03

Good news. The article makes no mention of it, it'll be interesting to see when Derby will be tested.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 21 Sep 2011 22:08

What is precision firing of a 1000 pounds bomb? Is it wrong reporting?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Sep 2011 00:07

They want to check out the laser guided bombs. Stated goal is 1m accuracy.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 22 Sep 2011 02:52

That article seems to imply that LSP-6 has flown..when did that happen?

While the sixth Limited Series Production (LSP-6) aircraft, designed with special features, continues to strive to attain a high angle of attack, indicating the aircraft's agility,

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 22 Sep 2011 07:25

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1685 Test Flights successfully. (17-Sep-2011)
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-208,PV3-295,LSP1-67,LSP2-178,PV5-36,LSP3-43,LSP4-40,LSP5-38)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1678 Test Flights successfully. (10-Sep-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-208,PV3-292,LSP1-67,LSP2-176,PV5-36,LSP3-43,LSP4-40,LSP5-36)

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 22 Sep 2011 09:07

Kartik wrote:That article seems to imply that LSP-6 has flown..when did that happen?

While the sixth Limited Series Production (LSP-6) aircraft, designed with special features, continues to strive to attain a high angle of attack, indicating the aircraft's agility,

The designers are striving with the plane on the ground.

I have my reservations on excitement generated by the highly open ended words "EW Role" because full spectrum escort jamming aircraft need endurance (they enter before and exit after the strike package) and payload (the need to carry multiple jammer pods for full spectrum broadband jamming, that cannot be dumped like munitions to allow the fighter fly clean, and hence faster, on the return leg), that Tejas doesnt have by design philosophy. Also, a newer prototype would be tested for this cutting edge role rather than the oldest prototype. Typically full spectrum escort jamming aircraft are long legged and high payload strike fighters like Su-24 or F-111 or A-6 bomber or F/A-18F based.

I speculate what PV-1 is being prepared for is EMC/EMI testing, as well as mapping its electromagnetic picture, and maybe compatibility of existing systems with the Elta jammer pod, that does allow some degree of jamming capability like the pods on Sea Harriers but nothing like the A-6.

And this AW article speculates IAF already has Su-30MKI escort jamming kit http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... 04eb28a9aa

vina · Post by **vina** » 22 Sep 2011 09:12

They want to check out the laser guided bombs. Stated goal is 1m accuracy.

No.. I doubt it is a "smart" Laser Guided Bomb like a Paveway kit or whatever. The Laser pod will be used for target ranging only, there will be no guidance whatsoever. This will be dumb bombs dropped using algos that continuously compute firing solutions and release . Just precision attacks with dumb bombs, not a LGB/GPS /guided weapon.

This sort of test was already done at Chitradurag. This is just a repeat test, this time with real 500kg/ 1000 kg bombs . From the looks of it the IOC variants of Tejas will pack a strong A2G punch, a and self defense with R-73 capability. The full A2A capability will come only with the FOC , when a radar guided missile will be integrated and all the A2G modes of the radar are fully activated /tested out. (all this from what I can read between the lines)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Sep 2011 09:13

vina wrote:.. We will see a decent Tejas Growler Electronic Attack aircraft being fielded soon! T...

Appreciate the thoughts.. but a growler on Tejas platform would mean lot of miniaturization to happen, for a full blown SEAD ops, that includes anti-radiation weapons, sensors [range?], etc.

Now, it is wonderful to think only about mayawi rather growler features. Perhaps our lab boys have silently implemented the GaN transistors straight away to a production model.

EW - self protection, RWR, lws, maws, and other dispener, though retractable pods for IR and mmw jammers could have been awesome - la Ef2K.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Sep 2011 09:54

does the laser guidance pod itself designate the target with a spot marker and the munition homes in on the reflection? if so, if the Tejas is able to mark the target for CCIP computer using laser pod, why would it not be able to launch a laser guided weapon right now?

vina · Post by **vina** » 22 Sep 2011 10:26

Singha wrote:does the laser guidance pod itself designate the target with a spot marker and the munition homes in on the reflection? if so, if the Tejas is able to mark the target for CCIP computer using laser pod, why would it not be able to launch a laser guided weapon right now?

Of course it can . If it can launch a 500kg dumb bomb, it can launch the same dumb bomb with a bolt on Paveway III kit as well.

However, I would think that launching a dumb bomb and LGB is slightly different in a another way. If a using a LGB, you can hit a moving target (the LD pod will track the target with the laser spot and the LG Bomb will home in on that reflection). For a stationary target, the pod just uses that laser for "Ranging" and from then, once that distance is got , the computers will calculate the firing solution prompt the release or maybe even automatically release. For a true LGB shot, the plane need not self designate, a buddy can due that as well. You cant do that with a dumb bomb.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 22 Sep 2011 11:22

Update from Tarmak007 ...

It's raining bombs in Pokhran! Tejas drops LGBs

t's official. It's raining bombs in Pokhran! Three test platforms from the Tejas flight-line -- LSP-2, LSP-5 and PV-3 -- is scripting a new chapter in India's light combat aircraft program. As reported by Tarmak007 earlier, the crucial weapon trails of Tejas are currently underway at the Chandan and Pokhran ranges of Rajasthan. Sources confirm that 10-12 sorties have been completed so far. Pick of these fire-works were the dropping of laser-guided bombs (LGBs), which according to sources was demonstrated by Tejas as per the plan.
...
"The practice bombing sorties gave good results. We are here till the month-end. Now, we have lined-up crucial drop-tank jettison tests. This included the trials of empty, partially-full and full drop-tank tests. It is a time-consuming exercise. Yesterday we had 2 sorties of empty jettison and practice bombing sessions. We dropped 1000 pounds, 400 pounds and even 25 pounds bombs. LGBs were also released," a senior official, part of the 200-strong contingent said.
...
...

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 22 Sep 2011 11:42

^^^ from the above link

"The practice bombing sorties gave good results. We are here till the month-end. Now, we have lined-up crucial drop-tank jettison tests. This included the trials of empty, partially-full and full drop-tank tests. It is a time-consuming exercise. Yesterday we had 2 sorties of empty jettison and practice bombing sessions. We dropped 1000 pounds, 400 pounds and even 25 pounds bombs. LGBs were also released," a senior official, part of the 200-strong contingent said.

I would like to make a childish observation, how many times will the Tejas drop the drop tanks? Werent these half-filled, empty and filled dropped earlier
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/04/b ... s-for.html

"An LSP-3 jettisoned drop tank at 0.7 Mach speed last week and the separation was successful. LSP-5 monitored the release. We are scheduled for more trials," military sources confirm to Tarmak007.
The ATR became operational on December 15, 2011, when Tejas conducted air-to-ground-trials. Hectic activities were seen at HAL's military airport in the last few days confirming the preparations.
When asked whether the trials are high-speed in nature, the source said: "Need not be. The thrust is not on speed. It can be a combination of speed and the status of the tank. We are scheduled for another test at 0.7 Mach speed (third one) with different fuel state. The key is clearing the corner points, opening-up the envelope and achieving most critical test points towards full clearance."

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 22 Sep 2011 12:46

I think before FOC, it will go through all the trials including the ones done earlier and some more. And I think these are the final trials on way to FOC??

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Sep 2011 13:42

^^^ yup !

suryag sahab, they have to try out all permutation combination to see if the aircraft and FBW SW is behaving correctly. various asymmetric loadouts and drop from that etc.

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 22 Sep 2011 13:53

will tejas mk2 also have to go through IOC and FOC or just FOC?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 Sep 2011 14:13

Vashishtha wrote:will tejas mk2 also have to go through IOC and FOC or just FOC?

MK 1 will go through FOC.
MK 2 will undergo its own OC. They can call it by any name.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 22 Sep 2011 14:36

Rahul M wrote:^^^ yup !

suryag sahab, they have to try out all permutation combination to see if the aircraft and FBW SW is behaving correctly. various asymmetric loadouts and drop from that etc.

It was plain frustration Sirjee, I want to see pics of a row of tejas in hashimara or any base in IAF colours. Being an abdul engineer(as all of us nowadays are) I thought i will classify the tests needed only for stores and their impact on the flying characteristics for some fun
1) Carriage tests - Where no stores are dropped only flight performance with different stores is tried out. So we have eight hardpoints according to http://www.tejas.gov.in/specifications/weapons.html
IF we consider the number of mach numbers and combination of windspeeds, say 10 mach numbers(starting from 0.4m-1.4mach) and 5 windpseed configurations, we have 50 combinations, for each these combinations we need to test out 19200(2*4*5*4*3*5*4*2) combinations

. Of course a number of these combinations would be invalid/impractical so no need to test and some of it can be interpolated/extrapolated and some can be tested in windtunnel. Nevertheless, the number to be tested will still be in hundreds.
2) Carriage separation tests - for each of the combinations valid in step1, tests to check their absence midway needs to be executed.

These two types of tests above, will on their own contribute atleast 400 live tests and after each of the tests the structural data and other data from sensors need to be analysed

Had we developed aircrafts earlier we would know which points are important and which ones are not and can skip the ones that are not important but damn we havent done it until now so have to go through a lot of pain. No wonder bideshi companies ask for an arm and a leg for their maal, it is more so the cost of their brains amortized across the number of aircraft bought, we have to go through this pain the first time, hope we get through it sooner

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 22 Sep 2011 17:00

suryag wrote:
Rahul M wrote:^^^ yup !

suryag sahab, they have to try out all permutation combination to see if the aircraft and FBW SW is behaving correctly. various asymmetric loadouts and drop from that etc.
It was plain frustration Sirjee, I want to see pics of a row of tejas in hashimara or any base in IAF colours. Being an abdul engineer(as all of us nowadays are) I thought i will classify the tests needed only for stores and their impact on the flying characteristics for some fun
1) Carriage tests - Where no stores are dropped only flight performance with different stores is tried out. So we have eight hardpoints according to http://www.tejas.gov.in/specifications/weapons.html
IF we consider the number of mach numbers and combination of windspeeds, say 10 mach numbers(starting from 0.4m-1.4mach) and 5 windpseed configurations, we have 50 combinations, for each these combinations we need to test out 19200(2*4*5*4*3*5*4*2) combinations . Of course a number of these combinations would be invalid/impractical so no need to test and some of it can be interpolated/extrapolated and some can be tested in windtunnel. Nevertheless, the number to be tested will still be in hundreds.
2) Carriage separation tests - for each of the combinations valid in step1, tests to check their absence midway needs to be executed.

These two types of tests above, will on their own contribute atleast 400 live tests and after each of the tests the structural data and other data from sensors need to be analysed Had we developed aircrafts earlier we would know which points are important and which ones are not and can skip the ones that are not important but damn we havent done it until now so have to go through a lot of pain. No wonder bideshi companies ask for an arm and a leg for their maal, it is more so the cost of their brains amortized across the number of aircraft bought, we have to go through this pain the first time, hope we get through it sooner

OK, now you got it

Number of test points is large but not huge. But to get data for DB so that in the future its easier you still need to do a heck of a lot of testing. And in a first effort you will get numerous showstoppers for many test cases which need to be resolved one by one. Painfully. Slowly. That is why this takes time.

And understandably people get frustrated. But if IAF is not, then it doesn't matter.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 22 Sep 2011 18:56

you can't test every single point, so you tend to test the envelope... anything within should be safe

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Sep 2011 19:47

critical paths, dependencies, and test envelopes can be so done to include all points.

FoC needs every point tested, and succeeded.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Sep 2011 20:10

SuryaG, Drop tanks tests especially empty ones have the most capability to leap up and hit the aircraft due to aerodynamics. And this has to be done for a number of speeds. Before all this CFD simulations of various combinations is doen and these tests validate those computer models which can then be used ot validate the whole gamut of options. Am sure they are doing things by "Design of Experiments" technique. DRDO does the maximum with minimum tests.

One more thing is there could be unexpected winds at drop altitudes and they need to see how the system behaves in that environment. Isnt it the NE monsoon time now in India?

What I want to know is what is this 400 lb bomb? As far as I know India has 1000lb, 450 kg, 250 kg and 125 kg bombs. The 25 lb model is a practice bomb which was used in the Chitradurg trials the pictures of which are already released. Also is the Sudarshan being tried out? Or is it Paveway II stock?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Sep 2011 20:27

doesn't paveways need unkill's nod to be fired from tejas?