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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 15 Nov 2012 10:48
by lakshmikanth
^^^ which brings me to this question that has been bothering me for sometime (long before this exchange occurred).
arnab wrote: No I'm saying that english is alive and sanskrit has been dead for a 1000 odd years. The cost of resurrection and imposition of sanskrit in every sphere of life (spoken, educational, official) would be hugely costly and would not offer any advantages to the non-elites except the 'hope' that because it is the root of most vernacular languages, people may find it easier to adapt to it. It would involve huge logistical nightmare to find teachers, trainers, translators in numbers to carry out these changes (It would infact be a Mohd-bin Tughlaqian solution).


The costs of resurrection would be huge, indeed, but how did the Brits manage to do it with Engleeesh, which had absolutely no relationship with any language back in the day?

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 15 Nov 2012 10:51
by RajeshA
arnab wrote:I was just giving an anecdotal evidence of how desire to learn certain languages are correlated with economic rise of nations. People learnt english because they saw economic opportunities in the west. Some feel the same about manadarin (China) as the future.

I was commenting that hindi might be the language to learn some-time further down the road.
I wasn't aware that Hindi is being pushed as the language of business in India. What is the basis of this hope?

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 15 Nov 2012 14:15
by Neela
Firstly, what is with the "being content to live in the west" and yet hate English argument.". What has that to do with hating English in India? More importantly what is the "West" here?
And what is the criteria to hate English in India?
Secondly, even indulging that argument, does the entire "Western" world speak English? English education surely seems to have let some down with geography.

Thirdly, the ecosystem point is lost. Again! This is also not about an individual and his upward mobility. Access to higher education ( graduate , post graduate ) and advanced concepts in any field in India is _mostly_ ( repeat _mostly_) available in English! . Now if the same is available in another Indian or local language, it makes those concepts available to a larger number of people. And when larger number of people are aware of advanced concepts, it naturally makes more experts. It drives innovation. If this was accompanied with an industry (both public/private) that was willing to absorb the lot, it sustains the language. But this is not the case here . Most private industry use English even if it means interacting within the region alone.

And I think what a bunch of nuts from Madras State did to prevent Hindi from being a national language need not be taken as representative of TamilNadu or be made a valid argument at all. Fact: business between TN and other states in India was and is probably is more than TN and rest of the world. So it makes sense to learn Hindi. And having grown up there, I can tell you how much I suffer everytime I visit cities and towns in the north.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 15 Nov 2012 15:19
by Agnimitra
arnab wrote:No I'm saying that english is alive and sanskrit has been dead for a 1000 odd years. The cost of resurrection and imposition of sanskrit in every sphere of life (spoken, educational, official) would be hugely costly and would not offer any advantages to the non-elites except the 'hope' that because it is the root of most vernacular languages, people may find it easier to adapt to it. It would involve huge logistical nightmare to find teachers, trainers, translators in numbers to carry out these changes (It would infact be a Mohd-bin Tughlaqian solution).
It would be a Tughlaq move if the idea was to effect Sanskritization and jettison English overnight. No one suggested that. But to phase it in over 2 or 3 generations should not be a problem at all. It would be a rather enjoyable and creative exercise.

Secondly, the effort is not "hugely costly" because of the means of delivery of education available today.

Moreover, it is not a "logistical nightmare" at all. Grassroots organizations like Samskrita Bharati are even today churning thousands of enthusiasts through their spoken Sanskrit curriculum with teachers who work for free on a voluntary basis. If governmental financial and institutional support were extended and fulltime teachers supported, the output would increase by a factor of ten.

Further, Sanskrit has not been "dead for 1000 years", merely recessive at worst. Entire libraries full of Sanskrit philosophical and other literature has been composed over the last 800 years alone. What are you talking about?? BHU has libraries full of such recent literature that have not even been translated yet!

And to repeat - Sanskrit does not replace any mother tongue or even English. They each flourish in their own orbit. We're only introducing another important sector through which the track passes.

I hope this would encourage you to investigate the matter in a more level-headed manner, or at least that it has put your imaginary Tughlaqesque nightmares to rest.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 15 Nov 2012 16:09
by lakshmikanth
Neela wrote: Thirdly, the ecosystem point is lost. Again!
I tried to get that across sir, but was met with sarcasm and dericision. I guess my English skills were not good enough to get it accross :(. It took me the experience of living in a village in Northern Karnataka to realize how disconnected I was with India's reality, but what do I know as I am a youngistani (too old to be one actually) who derides English and joins the Yank :).
Carl wrote: I hope this would encourage you to investigate the matter in a more level-headed manner, or at least that it has put your imaginary Tughlaqesque nightmares to rest.
Level headedness has been difficult from this crowd. They seem to have a know-it-all aura around them. For some reason, the mere suggestion of an alternative other than Her Majesty the White R*nd's Yinglish seems to trigger loads of derisission and/or panic. I can speculate, but I really don't know why it is so.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 15 Nov 2012 17:46
by Hari Seldon
lakshmikanth wrote:Level headedness has been difficult from this crowd. They seem to have a know-it-all aura around them. For some reason, the mere suggestion of an alternative other than Her Majesty the White R*nd's Yinglish seems to trigger loads of derisission and/or panic. I can speculate, but I really don't know why it is so.
This know-all attitude really oozes outta this crowd. The arguments they cannot rebutt they ignore. Happens with Bji all the time when this same set is unable to counter his cold logical precision. Theek hai, what can you do, eh? Just Yawn and move awn. Onlee.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 15 Nov 2012 21:41
by Sagar G
eklavya wrote:My claim is based on inter alia personal experience of both institutions as well as plenty of public source data. You haven't provided anything to disprove my claim. So, my claim stands.
Your claim has been punctured properly then and their when you made the "claim" if you refuse to see it and still believe in your hollow claims, fine by me I have no problem with that, till you don't vomit your claim all over the forum and throw mud at other organizations. You and your claim can live "Happily Ever After".
eklavya wrote:Sure, go ahead, do something to make your point.
As you wish...

http://www.kviisc.org/innerpage.php?pagename=cca
http://www.kv1colaba.com/kv1/index.php?page=cultural
http://www.kvjhunjhunu.org/cca.html
http://www.kvdharwad.org/contents/cca.php
http://www.kv2delhicantt.org/activities.html
http://www.kvdungarpur.org/cca.html
http://kvmeg.net/kvmegbanglore/innerpag ... gename=cca
http://www.kvgachibowli.org/innerpage.php?pagename=cca
http://www.kv1binnaguri.org.in/co-curri ... ctivities/
http://www.kvaairangpuri.com/activities.html
http://www.kvkoraput.org/innerpage.php?pagename=cca
http://www.kvinsvalsura.org/innerpage.php?pagename=cca
http://www.kvrishikesh.org/co-curricular.html
http://www.kvrewari.org/innerpage.php?pagename=cca
http://www.kvno2binnaguri.org/innerpage ... gename=cca
http://www.kvnewtehri.org/index.php/en/ ... -activites
http://www.kvemailaram.org/innerpage.php?pagename=cca
http://www.kvbeml.com/innerpage.php?pagename=cca
http://www.kvno1srinagar.com/innerpage.php?pagename=cca
http://www.kvpalwal.com/innerpage.php?pagename=cca
http://www.kvpalwal.com/innerpage.php?pagename=cca
http://www.kvaugustyamuni.org/innerpage ... gename=cca
http://kv2saltlake.net/innerpage.php?pagename=cca
http://www.kvnhpcrambi.org/cca.html
http://www.kvnalgonda.org/innerpage.php?pagename=cca

If still not enough then Google "Kendriya Vidyalaya Co Curricular".
eklavya wrote:You trawled through the weekly and decided to post this miserable comment. Truly pathetic ...
:rotfl:
That's all that you could come up with. This has got to be the most lame defence that I have ever seen.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 15 Nov 2012 21:51
by Sagar G
eklavya wrote: :lol:

What sort of Taliban Business School reasoning is this.
Oh definitely seeing your schooling I'am pretty sure you understand Taliban more than anyone else here.
eklavya wrote:JLR own some of the best known luxury car brands globally and a network of production facilities. No company spends billions buying a brand and production facilities with a view to destroying them. Contrary to your ridiculous hopes (probably what passes for "patriotism" in the Taliban Business School),
Again since you have clearly an upper hand in understanding the Talibani mentality given your past I am in serious lack of knowledge here to comment about the functioning of the said business school but one thing I am sure of that I don't need lectures about patriotism from people who have a clear upper hand in understanding the Talibani mentality given their past.

Regarding my comment their is no need to for you to get your undies in a twist since you have clearly missed what I was trying to say and given the standard of debating you are showing I don't want to waste my time explaining my pov to you so be happy with what you think and use as many emoticons as you want too.
eklavya wrote:Tata plan to invest £10bn (Rr. 85,000 Crore) in JLR over the next seven years and expand production globally, and thereby earn a return on their investment in JLR. JLR's sales are increasing and its profits are rocketing ahead, which is great news for all Tata Motors shareholders, especially as JLR is currently delivering most of Tata Motors' profits.
Enlightened !!!!!!!!!! Never knew about this.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 15 Nov 2012 22:07
by svenkat
While agreeing with what Neelaji has to say about industries,technology,technical education and the place of English in technical education,I agree with Philipjis post on "Lord and Revenge" and the state of the polity in India.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 15 Nov 2012 23:15
by eklavya
Sagar G wrote:That's all that you could come up with. This has got to be the most lame defence that I have ever seen.
Sagar G, your bowling is about 3 feet outside the leg-stump and heading straight for the ropes. Where is the opportunity to defend?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fv ... 8-E5oLEeHw

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 16 Nov 2012 01:46
by lakshmikanth
x-posting from under the Burkha (credit goes to Nilesh Oak ji):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMUF8le ... ure=relmfu

To understand the full cost of lack of ownership of our "national language" her majesty-hag's Yinglish plizz to watch this video in the following times:
1) 9:55 to the end
and then continue on to
2) 4:55 to around 6:30

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 16 Nov 2012 08:36
by arnab
lakshmikanth wrote:Level headedness has been difficult from this crowd. They seem to have a know-it-all aura around them. For some reason, the mere suggestion of an alternative other than Her Majesty the White R*nd's Yinglish seems to trigger loads of derisission and/or panic. I can speculate, but I really don't know why it is so.
Hmmm…As far as I can see, there were three broad ‘policy options’ suggested over the past few days with respect to the English question. Not sure why you feel that you are being derided or others are panicking :):

1. Learn English, but be aware that it was foisted on us (as an unintended consequence) by a very evil colonial empire. Response: Fine, noted :)

2. Learn English, but modify it (make it our *****) into hinglish, tamlish, benglish and deny its ownership to the English. Response: Fine :)

3. Learn an alternate ‘link’ language like Sanskrit. There were 2 sub-options here:

3a. Learn Sanskrit (but do not get rid of English) – both should be allowed to flourish in its own space. Response: Fine, but if the demand for languages is ‘market driven’ – I do not think it will flourish, but am completely agnostic about it. Do go ahead. As an aside, I noticed that Neela ji lamented how he suffered by not learning hindi. So here we have a living language, which is far more accessible to people from all parts of the country (should they have chosen to acquire it) – yet Neela ji was unable to acquire it. Let us not blame the brits for this :)

3b. Learn Sanskrit (with a view to transforming this into a language of communication / transaction) over a period of a few generations.

Let us discuss the cost-benefit analysis of 3b. Let us start with the ‘higher education’ sector as it has been argued that people went in for English because there was no alternative to English in the higher ed sector. So one way to transform this would be to enforce teaching in the higher education sector (starting with the primary education sector) with Sanskrit technical and non-technical books and training teachers to learn the language, translate mostly English technical books into Sanskrit (there would be more of them than existed during the Meiji Restoration – but technically could be done).

However there is the existing pool of over 23 year olds (no longer in college) in the workforce who have access only to their own regional language and English. Now assuming it is a generational transformation, we would be conducting official and business transactions in a multi-lingual format for about 40 odd years till the last of them retire – bang goes our productivity.

Next, our Gross Enrolment Ratio in higher education is currently around 18 per cent. This means that less than 1 in 5 persons in the age-group 18-23 are enrolled in higher education (mostly English) – of these probably half are actually educated to be productive in the work-force, but let us forget that for now. It took us 60 years to achieve this, after spending around Rs 60,000 crore per year on higher education alone in real terms. Now since learning Sanskrit will not miraculously make us more honest and plug leakages in the system, we can expect costs to be far higher to achieve this transformation and at the same time increase our educational attainment levels over time.

As per the suggestion we are planning to undertake a transformation of our educational attainment levels – by changing the language of instruction to Sanskrit. Yet presumably – we would still need English to engage with the rest of the world (they may oblige by learning Sanskrit but who knows). So people who have been brought up using Sanskrit – all our next generation IT whizkids, BPO operators, banking, finance and other service industries (which contributes the greatest share to our GDP) will be burdened with this additional costs of re-re training the workforce to know English (following the example of the Chinese and South koreans who are also pushing for learning english, despite being richer and mono-lingual socities).

Smart move folks :)

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 16 Nov 2012 08:47
by SwamyG
Ahem ahem, isn't all this language discussion an OT in the Indo-UK dhaaga?

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 16 Nov 2012 08:50
by lakshmikanth
Arnab sir, Can you answer my question posted above?
lakshmikanth wrote:^^^ which brings me to this question that has been bothering me for sometime (long before this exchange occurred).
arnab wrote: No I'm saying that english is alive and sanskrit has been dead for a 1000 odd years. The cost of resurrection and imposition of sanskrit in every sphere of life (spoken, educational, official) would be hugely costly and would not offer any advantages to the non-elites except the 'hope' that because it is the root of most vernacular languages, people may find it easier to adapt to it. It would involve huge logistical nightmare to find teachers, trainers, translators in numbers to carry out these changes (It would infact be a Mohd-bin Tughlaqian solution).


The costs of resurrection would be huge, indeed, but how did the Brits manage to do it with Engleeesh, which had absolutely no relationship with any language back in the day?

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 16 Nov 2012 08:56
by arnab
lakshmikanth wrote:Arnab sir, Can you answer my question posted above?
lakshmikanth wrote:^^^ which brings me to this question that has been bothering me for sometime (long before this exchange occurred).


The costs of resurrection would be huge, indeed, but how did the Brits manage to do it with Engleeesh, which had absolutely no relationship with any language back in the day?
How the Brits imposed English on India back in the day? They did not - they built an english educated interface, to deal with the non-english speaking folks presumably. They had no-interest in transforming the whole of India into an educated society. Our goals should vary from our colonisers.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 16 Nov 2012 09:19
by lakshmikanth
So we come back to the same point, the elites of India had a choice to make in 1947.

Why could we not have chosen a language that was agreeable to all, not necessarily Hindi but something else, but under our control? After all it goes through the same process that the Brits made it go through right?

You might say we have different goals, sure, BUT given that even NOW only around 20% of our people go to higher education, it would have been a MUCH easier task back in the day (where the number would have been in the lower single digit percentages).

Your numbers now make me even more convinced that the a compromise could have been worked out had we tried harder/smarter. I am not sure, I know that there were three agitations and Congress went down the drain in TN after this. I am sure that there may have been a better way. But as they say hindsight 20/20, it is too late now. Time to own English and make it our bitch :)

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 16 Nov 2012 09:28
by arnab
lakshmikanth wrote:So we come back to the same point, the elites of India had a choice to make in 1947.

Why could we not have chosen a language that was agreeable to all, not necessarily Hindi but something else, but under our control?
Well - presumably it would have to be a language that the elites of 1947 knew adequately enough to engage with the rest of the country. I do not think Sanskrit would have qualified. They did choose hindi...

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 16 Nov 2012 09:41
by lakshmikanth
^^^^ This is going OT at this point, so I am going to try and resist posting more (will move to OT dhaaga if necessary)

Given that our elites who even now have no clue about the ground reality of India, I am sure it would have been no different back then.

Was it such an intellectual hurdle to work out a more workable compromise rather than use an excuse to go the easy route? There were a lot of charismatic leaders back then, who I am sure had the one way support of the locals (the other way I am not sure). They could have worked a little smarter? They were smart enough to get liberated from the British and unite the whole country, and lost out on language? Hard to believe.

Nevertheless, Engleeshu was chosen. We have a lot of sunk cost now. We have to pay the tangible and intangible (see youtube video above) price we did not pay back then, in the future. Hopefully we win out and manage to run the Language imperialism in reverse == we have to get the numbers and quality upward.

While we do the above, we also have to free the minds from the "oriental discourse" trap. My armchair commentary is done :)

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 16 Nov 2012 11:13
by RajeshA
lakshmikanth wrote:But as they say hindsight 20/20, it is too late now. Time to own English and make it our bitch :)
As they also say, it is never too late. :)

Yes, English can be made into our bitch. It can be given a priority as an additional language we learn in order to communicate with the outside world. One can even enjoy its literature if one so wishes. However English should not have any place as a medium of education, language of administration of the Union, corporate management language, and only a junior role as the language of science in India.

But if one truly wants to make it our bitch, than what we should opt for is trying to popularize some really bastUrdized form of the language in music, movies and literature, which we can make popular outside India also, with lots of words from our regional languages thrown in. We can use our soft power reach to spoil the English in the world. :mrgreen: Of course, the people outside would also get to learn some Indian words as well in the process.
arnab wrote:3b. Learn Sanskrit (with a view to transforming this into a language of communication / transaction) over a period of a few generations.

Let us discuss the cost-benefit analysis of 3b. Let us start with the ‘higher education’ sector as it has been argued that people went in for English because there was no alternative to English in the higher ed sector. So one way to transform this would be to enforce teaching in the higher education sector (starting with the primary education sector) with Sanskrit technical and non-technical books and training teachers to learn the language, translate mostly English technical books into Sanskrit (there would be more of them than existed during the Meiji Restoration – but technically could be done).
Good Plan!
arnab wrote:However there is the existing pool of over 23 year olds (no longer in college) in the workforce who have access only to their own regional language and English. Now assuming it is a generational transformation, we would be conducting official and business transactions in a multi-lingual format for about 40 odd years till the last of them retire – bang goes our productivity.
Multi-lingual format is what already exists with such transactions being in regional languages, Hindi and English.

And no, there is no need to wait 40 years for the last one to retire. They get 15 years of transition. Those in the labour force who can learn Sanskrit as a replacement language for English (and Hindi ?), get to keep their jobs; those who can't, get to retire early, with lesser benefits.
arnab wrote:Next, our Gross Enrolment Ratio in higher education is currently around 18 per cent. This means that less than 1 in 5 persons in the age-group 18-23 are enrolled in higher education (mostly English) – of these probably half are actually educated to be productive in the work-force, but let us forget that for now. It took us 60 years to achieve this, after spending around Rs 60,000 crore per year on higher education alone in real terms. Now since learning Sanskrit will not miraculously make us more honest and plug leakages in the system, we can expect costs to be far higher to achieve this transformation and at the same time increase our educational attainment levels over time.
The 60,000 crores per year was used to impart knowledge in addition to doing it in English. Re-training only includes the use of Sanskrit as spoken and written language, as well as the use of Sanskrit for technical terms. Whereas eloquence in Sanskrit is the somewhat open-ended task, Sanskrit terminology for technical terms is a much smaller and well-defined set for any domain or field.

Also lets not forget the Sanskrit teaching and translation industry that would come up in India to oversee the transition. That industry too would be generating a lot of jobs.
arnab wrote:As per the suggestion we are planning to undertake a transformation of our educational attainment levels – by changing the language of instruction to Sanskrit. Yet presumably – we would still need English to engage with the rest of the world (they may oblige by learning Sanskrit but who knows).
They may oblige, but it will take some time, i.e. when India again attains the status we enjoyed in the days of old, when Sanskrit was the lingua franca of much of Eurasia.
arnab wrote:So people who have been brought up using Sanskrit – all our next generation IT whizkids, BPO operators, banking, finance and other service industries (which contributes the greatest share to our GDP) will be burdened with this additional costs of re-re training the workforce to know English
As also per suggestion, English would continue to remain a language additionally taught in schools, so that our interaction with the world does not suffer due to not knowing it.

I hope you can see the fallacy of your argument, that if we do not use English as the medium of instruction we fall back to the level of no knowledge of English at all, as in the case of some societies you mention. Some better argument must be possible.
arnab wrote:following the example of the Chinese and South koreans who are also pushing for learning english, despite being richer and mono-lingual socities).
First of all, Chinese are NOT a mono-lingual society. There are many many languages spoken in China with a couple more prominent than others. The good thing going for them is that they have a single script - hànzì. However they have pushed for Mandarin as a language which all should know.

The question is not whether they are pushing for learning English, but rather whether any other major non-Anglo power is willing to make English as its primary medium of instruction, official administrative language, language for conducting internal business or even language of science. If at all, some countries allow ICT in English medium, but that is about it, and ICT is not the sum all of language needs of a nation.
arnab wrote:Smart move folks :)
Indeed.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 16 Nov 2012 22:55
by brihaspati
To move back to an issue that had been raised some time ago :
http://chris-ukorg.org/cover-ups/kincora-boys-home/
Kincora boys home
Kincora Boys Home, Political Expediency of the Child, MI5 and a basketcase of Clockwork Oranges
The Kincora boys’ home was a children’s home in Belfast that was the scene of a notorious child sex state cover-up orchestrated by vested political and strategic self-interest in the continued military and political occupation of the once sovereign province of Ulster.

The scandal first came to public attention on 3rd April 1980, when three members of staff at the home, William McGrath a notorious homosexual , Raymond Semple and Joseph Mains, were charged with a number of offences relating to the systematic abuse of children in their care over a number of years. Mains, the former warden, received a term of six years, Semple, a former assistant warden, five years and McGrath four years.

Allegations later emerged that the Royal Ulster Constabulary RUC had been informed of the goings-on at the home for years previously, but had not moved to prevent it, because the manager of the home, William McGrath, was also the leader of a loyalist paramilitary group, called Tara, and was being blackmailed by MI5 into providing intelligence on other so-called loyalist groups. A “private inquiry” was set up in 1982 by James Prior, the Northern Ireland secretary to deal with these allegations, but it collapsed after three of its members resigned.

Ian Paisley, leader of the Democratic Unionist Party and moderator of the Free Presbyterian Church which he founded in 1951, was accused of failing to report the fact of McGrath’s homosexuality to the relevant authorities although he initially denied ever being advised by his informant, a church member, Miss Valerie Shaw, that McGrath worked in a boys’ home. McGrath was himself married with children. Paisley later gave more versions acknowledging learning from Miss Shaw about McGrath’s homosexuality.

During this time, it is alleged by satirical magazine Private Eye, high ranking members of the Whitehall Civil Service and senior officers of the UK military were involved in the sexual abuse of boys in Kincora
Colin Wallace exposed British Army ‘dirty tricks’ in Northern Ireland.
Wallace from Co. Antrim joined the British Army in Lisburn as a public relations officer. He quickly impressed and rose to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel by the age of 31. He co-operated with shadowy campaigns run by the intelligence services, but drew, albeit without personal or professional regret, the line at a campaign to undermine and discredit the new Labour Government in Downing Street; and at efforts to cover up child sex abuse at a boys’ home run by a valued informer.

Former Army Press officer Colin Wallace, who was based in Belfast, has long insisted that the authorities knew boys were being systematically sodomised at the home six years before they decided to act.
Above: Colin Wallace (second from right) in the company of PM Ted Heath and high ranking military personel
When he refused to continue with these activities, he was fired from his job, and found himself blacklisted. He resettled in England but, when a friend there died in suspicious circumstances; he was convicted of manslaughter and spent six years in prison. He claims that he was framed for the murder in order to silence him.

The names McGrath , Semple and Mains are widely known but it has become obvious that there are other names of powerful and well-known people who have connections with the Kincora saga and whose identities the so-called authorities have tried to keep secret since the scandal broke . One such person who has been reported to have visited Kincora is Ted Heath , the former Conservative MP and British PM.

A “private inquiry” was set up in 1982 by James Prior, the Northern Ireland Secretary of State under the Commissioner of Complaints, Stephen McGonagle, to deal with these allegations, but it collapsed after three of its members resigned. Debates on Kincora in the Northern Ireland Assembly were held on 22 March and 9 November 1983. Another inquiry, under Judge William Hughes, was then announced in January 1984.
In December 1985, Judge Hughes reported after his lengthy public inquiry. The view that there was a more extensive ‘ring’ operating at the home was not accepted. This inquiry reported many years before abuse on an extensive scale was uncovered in care homes in the Irish Republic and Britain.

PRINCE Charles’s mentor Lord Mountbatten – murdered by the IRA more than 20 years ago – has also been sensationally linked to the notorious Kincora Boys’ Home scandal in east Belfast. A book called ‘War ofthe Windsors’ Claims that rumours had “even linked him with the notorious scandal surrounding the Kincora Boys’ Home, where a network of teenage boys were made available to VIPs.”

It states: “Of all the recent Royals, none was so consistently immoral and unprincipled as the late Lord Mountbatten. “Both he and his wife Edwina were bisexual, and they led a life of unbridled promiscuity.
“He was also said to have an interest in what homosexuals call ‘rough trade’ and to be particularly attracted to working-class boys in their early teens.” Lord Mountbatten was killed in August 1979 when an IRA bomb exploded under his boat off the Co Sligo coast. Thomas McMahon, jailed for life for his part in the bombing, was freed in August 1998.
Many abuses in the real world survive, because regimes/secret services/political coteries - find it useful to selectovely both entice/encourage and then protect abusers. In my associations with political leadership, I have repeatedly found this almost obsessive desire in the leadership - and more often expressed clearly by the courtier rings that support them [in a mutually beneficial manner] within intel/admin structures - to have "followers" - whose "head can be pulled" by a single tug of the "hair/ear". This was the explicit phraseology - even if said in a dozen different languages. The most common elements of blackmail/control are "sexual deviations", homicide, abuse - things that would be the more intensely condemned in public the more guilt-ridden religions are foisted on the populace, with an elite almost addicted to such pleasures in private too.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 16 Nov 2012 23:29
by brihaspati
Wall street journal alleges that the Briton murdered by Bo's wife was a MI6 spy. Perhaps that is not a surprise as a model : but what should be noted is that given the possibility, what does the hard reaction from the rest of the communists fat cats mean. Of course on top, it is about using an excuse to shoot down the rival for dominance. But it can be more - where the dominant communist faction was collaborating with Brit intel - against a common enemy.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 16 Nov 2012 23:41
by RamaY
PRINCE Charles’s mentor Lord Mountbatten – murdered by the IRA more than 20 years ago – has also been sensationally linked to the notorious Kincora Boys’ Home scandal in east Belfast. A book called ‘War ofthe Windsors’ Claims that rumours had “even linked him with the notorious scandal surrounding the Kincora Boys’ Home, where a network of teenage boys were made available to VIPs.”

It states: “Of all the recent Royals, none was so consistently immoral and unprincipled as the late Lord Mountbatten. “Both he and his wife Edwina were bisexual, and they led a life of unbridled promiscuity.

“He was also said to have an interest in what homosexuals call ‘rough trade’ and to be particularly attracted to working-class boys in their early teens.” Lord Mountbatten was killed in August 1979 when an IRA bomb exploded under his boat off the Co Sligo coast. Thomas McMahon, jailed for life for his part in the bombing, was freed in August 1998.
Bji

Given this information and also given the rumors on escapades of first PM of India etc., do these boy's homes extend to British-India?

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 16 Nov 2012 23:44
by Sushupti
B ji in one of your posts you mentioned about Charlie (Deenbandhu) Andrews and his parting of his ways with MG and later possible actions by him leading to the isolation of MG in Congress. Is there any reference (book, link etc) you can point me to?.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 17 Nov 2012 00:19
by brihaspati
Sushupti wrote:B ji in one of your posts you mentioned about Charlie (Deenbandhu) Andrews and his parting of his ways with MG and later possible actions by him leading to the isolation of MG in Congress. Is there any reference (book, link etc) you can point me to?.
No I just pointed out that MKG asked him to leave the direct involvement with Indian politics. However, for me - this was more of a public signal from MKG that he would be taking his independent line of struggle, and might no longer be as considerate of British interests as he was before. This was 1935 - and in two years time congrez formed provincial govs - the start of the "pro-gov" line within [replace the ruler but not the state].

MKG was more in line of "anarchism" - in fact one can see an increasing tone of anarchism in his writings from about the same time. By 1942, he was greatly changed from his more cooperrative/state-respecting days. [Not that he would go too far though - as in the case of INA and Naval uprising].

His position towards Charlie might have been interpreted by British handlers placed to watch him/model him - as having finally growing out of the shadows of the empire. This would lead to - immediate attempts to bypass his authority and establish or cultivate warmer relations with his juniors. The leadersip to be backed - was being carefully chosen, if you note who among the nationalist spectrum were severely repressed/exiled - and who weren't.

At this point I am not prepared to explore Charlies potential/possible deeper connections with the religio-political establishment of the colonial interface - publicly. :) Sometimes, very well-meaning people can be used - unknown to them - through orgs or ideologies these men sincerely subscribe to or look up to, to attain imperialist/state/political purposes.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 17 Nov 2012 00:23
by brihaspati
RamaY ji,
banned material. Both ends of the connection. Let it rest there.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 17 Nov 2012 05:18
by Hari Seldon
Austerity is here to stay, and we'd better get used to it

Al-Guardian journo boldly praises PRC's lack of democratic constraints and breezily advocates ki$$ing cheeni ars to maintain oiropean/UKstani relevance in the years to come.

Yawn.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 17 Nov 2012 05:40
by RamaY
brihaspati wrote:RamaY ji,
banned material. Both ends of the connection. Let it rest there.
Agreed. Allah knows what Allah says :((

HS ji, I predict great strain between the two inbred communities. I think the white inbreeds are hoping to get help from Huns when the faithfool inbreeds come home to roost.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 17 Nov 2012 08:44
by brihaspati
RamaY ji,
will leave pointers from time to time from public domain stuff. Check it out [including for example the alleged quotes from MKG to Kallenbach].

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... gay-heroes
One of the ideas in my novel is the notion that the British empire was powered by sexual repression. Just as the steam power that had made industrialisation possible depended on its pressure being restrained, so the Victorians instinctively realised that if the male psyche was harshly subjugated, men of adventure would be propelled into the world with the energy of sublimated passion. This was the fuel of expansionism.

Many of the great empire heroes were of ambiguous sexuality. Gordon of Khartoum, Kitchener, Cecil Rhodes, Baden-Powell, Lawrence of Arabia, I don't think any of them would feel at home in the "LGBT community", but I'm pretty sure that there's not a single heterosexual among them.

Macdonald was the only one that got caught out, and it was his lack of social connections that doomed him. At a time when scandal was routinely covered up among the upper classes, the establishment simply turned its back on him. His tragedy is as much to do with class as anything else.

We have no way of knowing what he actually felt about his sexual identity – he left few letters or papers that could give us any sort of clue. And this is what made him a perfect starting point for a fictionalised character. As Oscar Wilde put it: "The one duty we owe history is to rewrite it." I simply imagined how he might have fallen in love.

So for LGBT History Month, let's declare an open season. If so much of our dreary past is governed by the rule that "love's loss is empire's gain", might it not be possible to reverse the formula and reclaim some of the hidden passion of great lives.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 17 Nov 2012 08:51
by RamaY
:rotfl:

Looks like the heirs-apparent are not that apparent after all...

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 17 Nov 2012 17:15
by JE Menon
Not sure if this has been posted before. Slow, steady, permanent...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4kdjHFB ... re=related

Gradually, very gradually, we reintroduce them to their ancient mindscapes without a plan, without design, without notion of dominance, defeat or victory, only the transmission of knowledge. It says somewhere, Satyam Eva Jayate

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 17 Nov 2012 23:09
by brihaspati
An interesting anecdote : an indication that the originators of the story did not throw out non-Hindus from temples or did not think of it as a dictum. But again, an interesting technique for winning "hearts" - the miracle route of missionaries from both Christianity and Islam. [The original story might have had embellishments - but at the minimum there was perhaps a simple case of sincere prayer by a distraught and pining wife to Shiva, which coincided with a remarkable turnaround in a dire battle/siege situation - and led to a genuine acknowledgment of faith and gratitude].

The story of a British couple - Pashtuns chased by "Shiva"!

http://www.writespirit.net/stories-tale ... e-british/
On the last of the ‘Laghurudri’ a messenger came and gave a letter to her. Her husband had written: ‘I was regularly sending messages to you from the battle grounds but suddenly the Pathans surrounded us from all sides. We were entrapped in a situation where there was no scope of escaping death. Suddenly I saw a Yogi of India with long hair, carrying a weapon with three pointers (Trishul). His personality was amazing and he was maneuvering his weapon with a magnificent style. Seeing this great man, the Pathans started running back. With his grace our bad times turned into moments of victory. This was possible only because of that man of India wearing a lion skin & carrying a three-pointer weapon (Trishul). That great Yogi told me that I should not worry and that he had come to rescue me because he was very pleased with my wife’s prayers.’

Tears of joy were falling down the eyes of Lady Martin’s eyes while reading the letter. Her heart was overwhelmed. She fell into the feet of Lord Shiva’s statue and burst in tears.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 18 Nov 2012 01:59
by Philip
The latest Frontline has a cover story on '62 and a piece/review of a book on Macaulay.Interesting fact that he supposedly drew up the IPC apart from his educational activities and did not allow in the IPC a free run by prosletysing outfits .

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 18 Nov 2012 04:46
by Rony
David Malone at the end of this video expresses suprise about the Indian generosity of looking favorably at British Raj considering the fact that it was an economic disaster for India. He is not alone, i should add !


Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 19 Nov 2012 20:09
by Anurag
Btw, a question for fellow BR's out there. Based on what this guy is saying, lets say the world produced 100 widgets and India's contribution to that was 20 widgets (say 20% which is what he's claiming). Then by the time the British left, India's contribution was 1%. Now my question, did anything happen to India's output in terms of numbers or did the world (mainly Europe) start to produce more widgets thanks to industrial revolution. So did anything change about India? Or is it simply that the world started to produce 2000 widgets but India still produced only 20 (1%) and therefore India's contribution as a proportion become less.

Now other questions are, Why only England to start with, why didn't the industrial revolution take place in India, China or Japan (no colonial intervention). With the British not being in India have resulted in a different economic output for India, how different were the Mughals prior to the British? Was per capita economic growth siginificant, what was India's per capita during the Mughal period? I say this because India's size will always make the output significantly bigger, but what matters is quality not quantity!

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 19 Nov 2012 20:34
by Sushupti
Anurag wrote:Btw, a question for fellow BR's out there. Based on what this guy is saying, lets say the world produced 100 widgets and India's contribution to that was 20 widgets (say 20% which is what he's claiming). Then by the time the British left, India's contribution was 1%. Now my question, did anything happen to India's output in terms of numbers or did the world (mainly Europe) start to produce more widgets thanks to industrial revolution. So did anything change about India? Or is it simply that the world started to produce 2000 widgets but India still produced only 20 (1%) and therefore India's contribution as a proportion become less.

Now other questions are, Why only England to start with, why didn't the industrial revolution take place in India, China or Japan (no colonial intervention). With the British not being in India have resulted in a different economic output for India, how different were the Mughals prior to the British? Was per capita economic growth siginificant, what was India's per capita during the Mughal period? I say this because India's size will always make the output significantly bigger, but what matters is quality not quantity!
Your answer is here. Without the capital looted form India industrial revolution would have died pre-mature death.

The Corporation that Changed the World: How the East India Company Shaped the Modern Multinational
Nick Robins
http://www.amazon.com/The-Corporation-t ... 0745325238

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 19 Nov 2012 20:38
by member_22872
If you only take the textile industry, Indian cotton which got so famous back in those days from which the Indian textiles were made and were exported got hit severely. Firstly, the British imposed taxes on Indian textiles, sorry I don't have numbers, but it was heavy and then they took the raw cotton and produced the textiles from the mills and sold them back in the Indian markets, so it is a doubly whammy. The heavy taxes and industrial revolution killed Indian textile industry. That too how can you compete with machines which are so efficient when it came to producing something in high numbers? Mind you, the cloth weaving in the mills was again Indian technology, the technique was learnt in India was exported to Britain and other places. So it was brutal.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 19 Nov 2012 20:43
by Sushupti
Talking about cotton
Cotton: The Biography of a Revolutionary Fiber By Stephen Yafa p.30

"As for the Indian methods of "animalizing" cotton [i.e. giving cotton the texture similar to animal skins], they remained mysterious to most European printers until much later than might be expected - for seventy years after the arrival of chintz. Ironically, it was a man of the cloth, Jesuit Father Coeurdoux, who betrayed these fiercely guarded secrets. In 1742 the French cleric took advantage of his missionary posting on the Coromandel coast to gain the trust of Indian master dyers whom he had converted to Catholicism. They confided their secret pricess to him with an understanding that he would never reveal it. Coeurdoux immediately gave a detailed description in a step-by-step letter published in France. In a blink, three thousand years of clandestine artisan practice became public knowledge."


http://books.google.ca/books?id=DZoxe0a ... ux&f=false

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 19 Nov 2012 20:44
by Anurag
So my question is, why didn't industrial revolution take place in India or any other part of Asia, why England only?

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 19 Nov 2012 20:49
by Sushupti
^^^ because there was no need for it in India.

Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Posted: 19 Nov 2012 21:01
by Anurag
Sushupti wrote:^^^ because there was no need for it in India.
So no locomotive to go from south to north, just ride the bullock cart?