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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 14 Oct 2011 18:41
by Pranay
abhischekcc wrote:Do you recall what Arvind Kejriwal said a few days ago - that Anna is above the constitution I want to ask him how he proposes to save democracy by subverting it? In essence, by corrupting democracy
Do take the time to view Arvind Kejriwal's interview by B. Dutt that i posted earlier... (below for convenience)

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bu ... ess/213357

will clarify your misconception, on this point and possibly many others.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 14 Oct 2011 19:46
by jagga
Bhushan attacker distances himself from BJP

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 14 Oct 2011 20:02
by Pranay
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 356245.cms
Anna Hazare has put off his planned 'yatra' against Congress demanding a strong Lokpal Bill and will now wait till the end of winter session of Parliament.

"Anna will not say anything now. Wait till the winter session is over. He will wait for the winter session. Let us see whether Congress brings the bill," Arvind Kejriwal, a key Team Anna member, told reporters here on Friday.


However, other members of the Team would visit Uttar Pradesh from October 17 educating people about the need for a strong Lokpal.

"We will ask people to wait till the winter session and will ask them not to vote for Congress if they do not bring the bill in the winter session," he said.

On October 17, the team will go to Banda in Bundelkhand and Kanpur and the next day, they will be in Unnao and Lucknow.

Asked why they were not opposing BSP, Kejriwal said, "There is no need for that. Even if Mayawati desires (that the bill is enacted), the Lokpal Bill will not come. But if Sonia Gandhi desires, it will come in two minutes. So we need to frighten Sonia and not Maya."

On government plans to confer constitutional status to Lokpal, he said they welcome the idea but expressed fear that it was a delaying tactic.

"Congress will say they tried to bring it but there was no consensus and they could not muster 2/3rd majority for a constitutional amendment. So what we want is the body and parallely, may be, you can give it constitutional status."

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 14 Oct 2011 20:12
by darshhan
habal wrote:


that's the right approach. You can't force nationalism down anyone's throat by beating them. He has a point of view, and he uses his freedom to express it. There are tons of Indians who have similar points of view, you can't quieten everybody by beating them up. Moreover if everyone is 'nationalist', then what is the value of a nationalist ?
Habal ji, I am all for freedom of expression but only if it applies to everyone and every case.I will give you an example.Just try to analyse islam in our country openly.I can bet you will be arrested within days for disturbing communal amity.So why should right to free speech be allowed for pseudo secular crowd.That is so unfair.

If the govt and pseudo secular crowd are intolerant to someone who is shedding light on the deeds of Muhammad or someone who is analyzing Quran , then it is only fitting that nationalists are also intolerant of the Pseudo secular views.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 14 Oct 2011 20:20
by Samudragupta
nagesh wrote:Firstly,tejinder is a core patriot..He has been trying to help ppl he comes across.Last fortnight he tweeted abt blood required fr a dengue case in delhi hospital,which I arranged.Habal.please dont malign this nationalist.
As about kashmir opportunity that u have mentioned,I would say that it is not an opportunity granted by prashant,but an extreme provocation which had to be countered.I am amazed to see lukewarm response to calls of seccesion for kashmir from ordinary citizens as well as nationalists here.I think soldiers who have laid down their lives or lost limbs to save our borders and their families,must be feeling cheated.My observation is that this tolerance to brazen calls for secession is a recent phenomenon,co-inciding with the advent of sonia raj.......Makes my blood boil.
Every battle is not waged at the same time....u must understand this.....

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 14 Oct 2011 20:45
by jamwal
abhischekcc saar,
Don't tell me that you read and believe TOI, NDTV.

According to Hindu:
As a citizen, Hazare is above Parliament: Kejriwal

TOIlet's spin:
Anna Hazare above Parliament, can pressurise it: Arvind Kejriwal
:evil:

http://i55.tinypic.com/28844s4.jpg

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 14 Oct 2011 21:28
by Pranay
http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?738234
Team Anna today saw a "conspiracy" behind the attacks on Prashant Bhushan and volunteers by members of a right-wing group, saying they did not feel that the lawyer's controversial remarks on Kashmir were the provocation for the assault.

Claiming that it was an attempt to divert attention from the issue of corruption, they also questioned police actions, alleging that the cops did not act swiftly against the attackers and wondered whether there were "instructions from the top" to do so.

"We don't think it is the Kashmir remarks which have provoked the attacks. It appears that all the corrupt people have got together. It was an attempt to divert attention from the issue of corruption. We feel there is a conspiracy," Kejriwal told reporters here.

Bhushan had triggered a controversy by supporting the idea of holding plebiscite in Jammu and Kashmir following which he was attacked by three youths belonging to a right-wing group two days ago.

Team Anna has distanced itself from Bhushan's comments saying it was his personal view.

Interestingly, Kejriwal did not mention Sri Ram Sene or Bhagat Singh Kranti Sena which had claimed responsibility for the attacks though he mentioned the name of Tejinder Pal Singh Bagga, who was arrested in connection with attack on Bhushan.

He said Bagga was arrested a day after the incident though he was giving interviews to media. "He even spoke to our volunteers for two hours. It is curious to note that police was saying the whole night that they could not locate him," he said.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 14 Oct 2011 21:34
by ramana
I guess he is missing the elephant in the room. He doesn't get it that Kashmir is an emotional issue for the common people who support the AH movement. The slap has made them pause in support to the AH movement.

Bhushan's ideas gell with eliteists ideas of azadi etc which do not gell with the commons who support AH movement. If Kejriwal etc don't realise what this has exposed then they are done for.

A corrollary is
- Elitemen cant lead the commons as they will drop their mask and get exposed to be the charlatans they are..

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 14 Oct 2011 22:55
by jamwal
फ़ेकिंग न्यूज़ ने करवाया ‘जनमत संग्रह’: ज़्यादातर लोग प्रशांत भूषण की पिटाई के पक्ष में



जनमत संग्रह में 50.1 फीसदी लोगों का मानना था कि प्रशांत भूषण की पिटाई कर किसी ने कुछ ग़लत नहीं किया जबकि 49.9 फीसदी लोगों का मानना था कि नहीं ऐसा नहीं होना चाहिए था। चूंकि जनमत संग्रह का मूल मकसद ही ‘हेड काउंट’ होता है इसलिए हमने इस बात का हिसाब नहीं रखा कि ‘हां’ या ‘ना’ कहने वाले व्यक्ति का धर्म क्या है, उसकी शैक्षणिक पृष्ठभूमि क्या है या फिर उसका टेम्परामेंट कैसा है।

जनमत संग्रह के नतीजे चूंकि प्रशांत जी के पक्ष में नहीं थे इसलिए हमने उनसे प्रतिक्रिया लेना ठीक नहीं समझा। बहरहाल इस मामले पर बात करने के लिए अरूंधति राय ज़रूर तैयार हो गईं। मगर जैसे ही हमने उन्हें इस जनमत संग्रह के बारे में बताया तो वो भड़क उठीं।

बकौल अरूंधति, “आप लोगों का क्या दिमाग ख़राब हो गया है…कोई भी समझदार आदमी ‘किसी की पिटाई’ को लेकर ‘जनमत संग्रह’ कैसे करवा सकता है?

ऊपर से आप कह रहे हैं कि ज़्यादातर लोग पिटाई के पक्ष में है…अगर ज़्यादातर लोग पिटाई के पक्ष में हैं, तो क्या माना जाए कि अगर हम किसी के विचारों से असहमत हैं तो उसे पीटना जायज़ है…और इस बात की क्या गारंटी है कि आपके इस जनमत संग्रह में भाग लेने वाले ज़्यादातर लोग साम्प्रदायिक नहीं थे…अगर वो किसी धार्मिक पूर्वाग्रह से ग्रस्त थे तो फिर ऐसे किसी जनमत संग्रह के क्या मायने रह जाते हैं।”

फ़ेकिंग न्यूज़-मगर मैडम, जनमत संग्रह का तो मतलब ही यही होता है कि ये पता लगाया जाए कि ‘बहुमत’ क्या सोचता है या ज़्यादातर लोगों की क्या मर्जी है…इसमें धर्म और पूर्वाग्रह कहां से आ गए…जो लोगों को ठीक लगा वही तो जायज़ हुआ ना।

अरूंधति-तो आपको क्या लगता है…कल को ज़्यादातर हिंदुस्तानी अगर ये कह दें कि इस देश का अल्पसंख्यक पड़ौसी मुल्क में चला जाए तो क्या ये ठीक होगा?

फ़ेकिंग न्यूज़-नहीं मैडम, ये तो सरासर ग़लत होगा..ऐसा करना तो हमारे संविधान की मूल भावना के खिलाफ है…आख़िर हर धर्म के व्यक्ति को यहां रहने का पूरा हक है।

अरूंधति-तो अब आपको समझ आया न…किसी भी तरह की जनसहमति भले ही वो किसी ‘जनमत संग्रह’ से क्यों न निकली हो, संविधान से ऊपर नहीं हो सकती। इस देश का संविधान अगर हमें अभिव्यक्ति की स्वतंत्रता देता है तो ज़्यादातर लोगों के ये मानने पर कि ‘पिटाई सही है’, उनकी सोच स्वीकार नहीं की जा सकती।

फ़ेकिंग न्यूज़- मगर मैम, संविधान के मुताबिक कश्मीर भी तो भारत का अभिन्न हिस्सा है, तो फिर भारत के साथ रहने या न रहने को लेकर कोई जनमत संग्रह वहां कैसे किया जा सकता है…और जैसा आपने कहा कि प्रशांत भूषण की पिटाई का समर्थन करने वाले ज़्यादातर लोग धार्मिक पूर्वाग्रह से ग्रसित थे, तो क्या गारंटी है कि कश्मीर में ऐसा नहीं होगा!

और अगर ये समस्या सिर्फ राजनीतिक है तो हज़ारों लोग कश्मीर में सिर्फ इसलिए कत्ल क्यों कर दिए गए क्योंकि वो हिंदू थे?




Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 15 Oct 2011 00:23
by vijayk
Pranay wrote:
abhischekcc wrote:Do you recall what Arvind Kejriwal said a few days ago - that Anna is above the constitution I want to ask him how he proposes to save democracy by subverting it? In essence, by corrupting democracy
Do take the time to view Arvind Kejriwal's interview by B. Dutt that i posted earlier... (below for convenience)

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bu ... ess/213357

will clarify your misconception, on this point and possibly many others.
I saw all his interview. Regardless of his anti-RSS remarks, he knows that the real evil is CON Party and CON system. He talks about how Bhushan's CDs came out, how allegations against Anna's team came out as soon as they started demanding.

I don't know what is his final goal. He never brings up DIE-nasty but he is little different from the anti-national CON civil society who were heavily bribed and co-opted by the DIE-nasty. Unlike CON civil society which wants to make deals with CON DIE-nasty to enrich themselves and help CON DIE-nasty in the disintegration and destruction of India, he has single most focus to make changes to the Governance. He doesn't want to compromise the evil DIE-nasty.

His barbs against RSS/BJP are part ideological and part reaction against being labeled as yindoo right wing which the CON SCUM IDE-nasty and its CON agents such as Dogvijay are trying hard to do with the help of CON media such as TOIlet, Hindustan Times, NDTV.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 15 Oct 2011 05:40
by SBajwa
Just the slogans utilized by Shri Anna Hazare's team of "Bande Mataram" , "Bharat Mata ki Jai", "Inquilab Zindabad" are proof enough that they are the real patriots.

Kiran Bedi ---- excellent IPS officer with a distinction record police service when compared across world.
Arvind Kejriwal ---- IIT graduate who drifted from multinationals to missionaries of charities and economics to Hazare!! trying to find balance!!

and many more like them..
supporting an honest Indian Army driver who has devoted his life for India is proof enough that these guys are not only genuine Indian patriots but the Bhagat Singh, Rajguru and Sukhdev of 2011!!! All India should support them!!

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 15 Oct 2011 09:05
by Prem
Congress condemns Bhushan's remarks on Kashmir
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/congr ... 111014.htm
Amid the turmoil in Team Anna on the issue, the Congress on Friday condemned Prashant Bhushan's advocacy of plebiscite in Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ], declaring that the state was an integral part of India [ and there can be "no second thought" in the matter.
At the same time, party spokesman Rashid Alvi also condemned the assault on Bhushan for the remarks and Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackeray's [ Images ] praise for the attackers. "The talk of referendum is condemnable. Jammu and Kashmir is part of India and there can be no second thought...," he said. Noting that there have been regular elections in the densitive border state, he said people have brought to power governments of different parties as per their own will.On the attack on Bhushan, the spokesman said that it was not proper for anyone to take the law in their hand. He said that the support of Thackeray to the attackers was not in the interest of the country and democracy.Alvi sought to ignore Team Anna member Arvind Kejriwal's contention that the government was attempting to divert attention from the core issue of Lokpal by raising the matter of Bhushan's remarks on Kashmir.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 15 Oct 2011 09:08
by Prem
Meanwhile SS shoots another Agni Baan!!
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/swamy ... 111014.htm
Swamy announces panel against corruption
Janata Party president Subramanian Swamy on Friday announced forming of an Action Committee Against Corruption in India [ Images ] with special focus on illegal money flow in and out of the country.The ACACI consists of members including former Haryana director general of police and former Central Bureau of Investigation joint director B R Lall, academician M D Nalapat and former IAS officer V Sundaram among others. "The ACACI will leverage existing national and international laws and move internal and global institutions to discover and recover illegal funds deposited in secret banking channels in about 77 countries," he told mediapersons in Chennai after a meeting of the committee."Our areas of focus would include nationalisation of illegal accounts in foreign banks and plugging tax evasion. ACACI has been set up to fight corruption in the space left vacant by two major movements against corruption, led by Anna Hazare and Baba Ramdev [ Images ]," Swamy said.hile Hazare's efforts were focused at revamping present laws and making them free of loopholes, Ramdev concentrated on mass mobilisation, Swamy noted."The ACACI will focus on specific action against macro corrupt acts, especially in the criminal misconduct of high level public officials and illegal money flow in and out of the country," he said.Asserting that he had no differences with Hazare or Baba Ramdev, Swamy said he would participate in the yoga guru's proposed padayatra. "We will work in harmony," he added.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 15 Oct 2011 10:15
by Arjun
What is impressive is the way Anna keeps demonstrating real leadership in fast-moving situations - a quality that has been absent from the political landscape of India for God knows how many decades....

Take the PB incident for instance. Anna called a press conference the very next day, made it very plain that he was not supportive of Bhushan's statement and at the same time that the attacker needed to be condemned. He, Bedi and Kejriwal are folks who are constantly on top of situations and don't allow issues to fester - which is a whole new paradigm for India. Contrasting with MMS and RG - the difference could not be more stark.

Another thought - if one recollects the discussions on this thread from a few months back, the specific individuals who were the real cause for concern on this forum regarding Team Anna were Agnivesh and Prashant Bhushan. Today, both of these have been exposed publicly for what they are and their views largely discredited.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 15 Oct 2011 11:28
by Arjun
Dynasty Politics is the bane of Democracy

This is one piece which is not being addressed by any civil society group. Need to create a non-party body on the lines of 'India against Corruption' for country-wide awareness against Dynastic Politics.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 15 Oct 2011 16:50
by Pranay
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 365997.cms

A singular success to the Karnataka Lok Ayukta / Santosh Hegde and his relentless team.
Sending ripples among the political class, former Karnataka chief minister B S Yeddyurappa was send to judicial custody till October 22 after he surrendered before the special Lokayukta court here. Earlier, the special Lokayukta Court rejected the anticipatory bail and issued an arrest warrant against him.

Yeddyurappa's former cabinet colleague Es En Krissnaiah Setty, who was co-accused, was present in the court when the orders were passed by Justice N K Sudhindra Rao. He was arrested and sent to judicial custoday.

BSY is accused of denotifying land in and around Bangalore for pecuniary benefits to his family and Setty.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 15 Oct 2011 17:04
by Tamang
It seems Kejriwal (he being the brain of Team Anna, and also his fierce anti-Congress stance) is the target for Congress sympathisers in Media now

Will Arvind Kejriwal turn out to be his own enemy?
Arvind Kejriwal could well be the civil society’s version of Narendra Modi. He evokes extreme reactions, both negative and positive. You either like him or don’t; there cannot be halfway positions. He is also a go-getter — abrasive, at points seriously annoying, but still a go-getter. That the anti-corruption movement of Anna Hazare has stirred and shaken the establishment and stayed strong so far is a tribute to the man.

Combative, in your face, articulate, determined and good at rabble-rousing, he has been the brain and muscle behind the movement, while Anna has been its face. But that precisely are the qualities that could prove to be his undoing and take the movement down. Thanks Akshaya Mishra for showing "genuine concern" for Janlokpal movemet
His decision to use the momentum in favour of the anti-corruption movement against the Congress in Hisar was more impulsive than rational. It has not gone down well among some members of Team Anna, though only Santosh Hegde has been vocal about it.
Except Santosh Hegde the entire Team Anna (or atleast the main members) was in Hisar, and why doesn't he name other team member if he knows them?
His mentors, of course, were not pleased to see the way their initiative was hijacked and the way things shaped up to be a mass movement. Mandar criticised the developments unfolding over the Jan Lokpal Bill severely. “This is a right-leaning, fascist campaign to push for an extremely regressive legislation. It is painful to watch colleagues and friends take such unreasonable positions. The Lokpal Bill needs wider debate, consultations and reasonable debate,” he said in an interview with India Today.
Leave alone Aruna/Mandar gang, no Congress sympathiser is happy with the Janlokpal movement.
In a hint that his disapproval was at a level deeper than that, Hegde, commenting on Kejriwal’s comment that Anna was above Parliament, told Outlook that such things happen when somebody talks “too much”.
Com'on Akshaya Anand you know what his comment on Anna being above parliament actually was.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 15 Oct 2011 17:49
by chaanakya
x-posted from corruption tracker thread

BS Yeddyurappa arrested, sent to jail;
B S Yeddyurappa was remanded to judicial custody till October 22 and sent to Bangalore Central Jail after he surrendered before the special Lokayukta court here.
Yeddyurappa's former cabinet colleague Es En Krissnaiah Setty, who was co-accused, was present in the court when the orders were passed by Justice N K Sudhindra Rao. He was arrested and sent to judicial custoday.

BSY is accused of denotifying land in and around Bangalore for pecuniary benefits to his family and Setty.


Yeddyurappa's two sons -- Shimoga MP B Y Raghavendra and B Y Vijendra and his son-in-law R N Sohan Kumar were granted conditional bail after each furnished a surety bond of Rs five lakh. Yeddyurappa was not present in the court citing health reasons.

The court had issued the arrest warrant against Yeddyurappa asking the police to execute the same by Tuesday.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 16 Oct 2011 01:58
by vishvak
chaanakya wrote:x-posted from corruption tracker thread

BS Yeddyurappa arrested, sent to jail;
Congress may just try to let anyone else wriggle out of anything and everything, especially since the Lokpal at state level is at nascent stage. Once BJP here puts enough resistance and clears way out for Yeddyurappa, the same practices will be duplicated in states where Congress is in power.

This way BJP & other parties can be treated as corrupt with connivance of sold-outs in media, lenient Lokpal practices in Congress ruled states at the most could be made to look as if Congress is not as bad as others.

The sold outs in media are completely on the side of Congress now. It is as if the media has become the support of Congress at center and at states.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 16 Oct 2011 04:30
by Yagnasri
Public also knows that media is soled out Guruji and is very unhappy with congress now. So i do not worry.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 16 Oct 2011 05:29
by Pranay
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 370536.cms

Looks like Re-Org time in the core Team Anna. Fortunately Anna has clarity of vision and leadership to match - needs to pull the plug on individuals who exceed their brief and pursue their own agenda, while on this platform...
"I am against anybody who talks about dividing the country. I am very uncomfortable with what Bhushan has said. Our core committee will meet to decide on his continuing as a member. After it meets, I will take a decision," Hazare said.
Hazare was critical of Kejriwal for saying that he (the Gandhian) was above Parliament. "Arvind Kejriwal has not told me what he has said. But if he did say Anna is above Parliament, it's wrong. People are above Parliament, not Anna." Hazare said he would tell his colleagues not to exceed their brief and speak on each and every issue.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 16 Oct 2011 05:32
by Pranay
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 371426.cms

... good riddance to a disgruntled ex member! This guy would have truly sabotaged the Jan Lokpal agenda....
Swami Agnivesh, who was sidelined by Team Anna because of their suspicion that he was a "government mole", hit out on Saturday at his former comrades, accusing them of promoting a cult around Anna Hazare and behaving like Brahmanvadis.

"Everyone was wearing 'I am Anna' written cap...what was that...it was an attempt to build a cult...They should not have tried to do this...This was Brahmanvad," Agnivesh said.


Agnivesh also criticized and demanded apology from another Team Anna member Arvind Kejriwal for his remark that Anna is above Parliament. "Those who have said that their leader is above Parliament must apologize," he said.

Though the Arya Samaj leader took no name, the remark highlighted the bitterness between him and Team Anna.

Once a visible figure in Team Anna's activities, Agnivesh lost his prominence after a TV channel stealthily filmed him criticizing his former colleagues to one Kapilji on phone. The "sting" was carried out when Anna and his colleagues were locked in a tense confrontation with the government, and was seen as an act of betrayal by anti-corruption campaigners.

Agnivesh's claim that the "Kapilji" he was talking to was not HRD minister Kapil Sibal, but Kapilji Maharaj, a guru, did not find any takers from the anti-graft brigade.

Agnivesh chose the platform of the All India Federation of SC/ST Organizations - known critics of Team Anna and their version of the Jan Lokpal bill - to air his views. The Federation has alleged that the terms of the Jan Lokpal bill were loaded against non-upper castes: something that Agnivesh did not seem to agree with while he was with Team Anna. Naturally, the accusation of Brahmanvad went down well with his audience.

Agnivesh reasoned that he fell out with Team Anna after he failed to convince them to push the parliamentary Standing Committee considering the Lokpal bill to incorporate the provisions of the Jan Lokpal bill.

"...I tried to persuade them that the Standing Committee can make changes in government's version of Lokpal bill. It has the power to change the entire legislation...It is like a mini-Parliament....and we should meet, pressurize and convince the Committee to adopt provisions of the Jan Lokpal bill...we should keep meeting the Committee...but they did not listen to me," Agnivesh said.

Addressing the gathering, dalit leader Udit Raj demanded representation of dalits, Muslim and backwards in the Lokpal Committee and asked Anna Hazare to accept the provisions of Bahujan Lokpal to get the support of these social groups. "We want reservation in Lokpal. We demand that expand the Lokpal committee to accommodate social groups," he said, arguing that no law would be successful if it did not enjoy support of 85% of the population.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 16 Oct 2011 09:28
by devesh
what the hell is "Brahmanvad"? that's the first time I'm hearing that. where do these idiots come up with these words?

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 16 Oct 2011 10:15
by Upendra
Sit-in outside Kejriwal's home
Ghaziabad, Oct 15 (IANS)

Two men who claimed to be members of India Against Corruption (IAC) group Saturday staged a sit-in outside activist Arvind Kejriwal’s house in Kaushambhi here and accused him of misusing the NGO's funds.

Vipin Nayyar and Sri Om claimed they had played an active role during the anti-corruption agitation in Delhi, but were ignored by the Team Anna members.

They said the coterie of Arvind Kejriwal, Kiran Bedi and Manish Sisodia were controlling the organisation and were misusing funds collected from the public.

Some local residents also joined the protest and alleged that Team Anna member Kiran Bedi received government funds through an NGO floated by her.

They also said a huge communication gap existed between the volunteers and Team Anna members.

However, Kejriwal's associate Jainendra Singh said the sit-in was engineered by the Congress and other groups in a bid to defame Anna Hazare's supporters.

Kejriwal claims he has received messages of being attacked
Pune Asserting that violence is not the solution to get rid of the rampant corruption prevailing in the country, key Team Anna member Arvind Kejriwal today said that he has been receiving messages of his office being attacked, and termed the whole episode to be a conspiracy against the civil society activists.

"I have been receiving messages from yesterday that my office will be attacked. I have been receiving these messages from yesterday evening that people would attack on us. Are they the same people, who had attacked day before yesterday? So, we all had a telephonic conversation and decided that we will not hit back on somebody," Kejriwal told reporters here.

"We will try to make them convince that violence is not the solution. If they think assault or violence to be a solution, then many of our volunteers are ready to get assaulted. People will sit outside our offices and tell them that if you want to beat us, you are welcome. We will try to talk and not indulge in any fighting. But violence is not the solution," he added.

Kejriwal further said the government will have to investigate the whole matter and find out those responsible.

"We do not know who is responsible for it. But it is all a conspiracy. Earlier, they used to say that they have problem with regard to the Kashmir issue, but it was clarified yesterday. Now, who are these people? So, the government will have to find out, but is a matter of question whether the government will investigate this issue with sincerity," he added.

When asked about Congress General Secretary Digvijay Singh's letter to Anna Hazare, Kejriwal said that Anna would decide on the letter.

He further said the core committee has made its stand clear on the controversy surrounding senior Supreme Court lawyer Prashant Bhushan.

Kejriwal had on Friday said the assault Prashant Bhushan is a conscious effort by unidentified corrupt forces in the country, who are trying to divert attention from Anna Hazare's anti-corruption movement.

"The attacks in the past two days, according to us are not only in connection with Prashant's statement on Kashmir. I think corrupt people have got together and are conspiring against us," Kejriwal told media persons here soon after the meeting of the civil society team.

"It is tough to point fingers at any one individual or organization; however it is clear that these forces have pre-planned such attacks and trying to divert the attention from a corruption free country which is our prime motive," he added.

Kejriwal further clarified Hazare's statement on Bhushan's position in the core committee and said that Bhushan would remain an integral part of the movement, as he has contributed a lot to such movements.

Bhushan was beaten up by some youths suspected to be from Sriram Sena in his Supreme Court lawyers' chambers on Wednesday as they were upset with his stand on Jammu and Kashmir.

Bhushan reportedly supported a plebiscite for Kashmir and said that if the result comes in favour of separation, it should be honoured.

The senior Supreme Court lawyer, however, later made it clear that these were his views and did not reflect the views of Team Anna.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 16 Oct 2011 13:45
by sum
Two men who claimed to be members of India Against Corruption (IAC) group Saturday staged a sit-in outside activist Arvind Kejriwal’s house in Kaushambhi here and accused him of misusing the NGO's funds.
Classic INC dirty tricks dept trick #3.14...

Finally, the dirty tricks dept seems to be waking up aftre being in slumber all this while.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 16 Oct 2011 14:48
by vishvak
sum wrote:
Two men who claimed to be members of India Against Corruption (IAC) group Saturday staged a sit-in outside activist Arvind Kejriwal’s house in Kaushambhi here and accused him of misusing the NGO's funds.
Classic INC dirty tricks dept trick #3.14...

Finally, the dirty tricks dept seems to be waking up aftre being in slumber all this while.
link1 - no one "Vipin Nayyar" among the Nayyars.

link2 - no one called "Sri Om" among anyone with the name Om.
Vipin Nayyar and Sri Om claimed they had played an active role during the anti-corruption agitation in Delhi, but were ignored by the Team Anna members
...
However, Kejriwal's associate Jainendra Singh said the sit-in was engineered by the Congress and other groups in a bid to defame Anna Hazare's supporters
So now Congress wants to steal the whole anti-corruption movement too. Along with the huge credibility, the movement can generate donations afterall. (link)

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 16 Oct 2011 15:11
by James B
I think defeat of congress in Hisar polls will be symbolic of Anna's fight against Congress. It will be a turning point. Exit polls predict that Congress will be in third position.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 16 Oct 2011 17:02
by Arjun
Is the export boom really Black Money coming back into India?
The researchers found that exports of metals and metal products increased from $13 billion to $29 billion, according to official data. But the companies in the BSE 500 increased such exports by less than a billion dollars. Official data say exports of copper articles more than quadrupled to Rs 36,700 crore. The big new buyer was China, not normally a buyer of brassware handicrafts . Opposition parties are suddenly interested in the matter since one of the bestknown exporters of brassware is Robert Vadra.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 16 Oct 2011 17:13
by Muppalla
James B wrote:I think defeat of congress in Hisar polls will be symbolic of Anna's fight against Congress. It will be a turning point. Exit polls predict that Congress will be in third position.
This is how media builds it. That seat was Bhajan Lal's seat and is being won by his son. It was not congress seat and congress is in decline since 2009 in Haryana even before 2G started. The congress rule is Haryana came down from 3/4 th majority to a coalition level in Haryana. Now suddenly these anti-corruption herrows claim that because of them congress is losing.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 16 Oct 2011 17:57
by Pranay
http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?738374

What a mockery of justice, what a circus!! How come all these top shot jokers suddenly develop "chest pain" upon being sent to jail??

Why cannot they be provided the requisite medical facilities within the confines of their jail cell??

Is there any statistic of how many poor people develop "chest pain" and are shifted to hospitals?? Or it it a preserve of the rich and powerful??

... and two hoots about governance, the whole state government ends up at the hospital. :(
Former Karnataka Chief Minister B S Yeddyurappa, who was sent to judicial custody yesterday, has been shifted to a hospital from jail in the early hours after he complained of chest pain.

68-year-old Yeddyurappa is undergoing treatment in the ICU of Jayadeva Hospital, doctors said.

He had high blood pressure and vomited a couple of times at about 0145 hrs, which prompted the jail authorities to rush him to hospital, sources said, adding his condition is stated to be stable.

The Special Lokayukta court yesterday rejected bail and issued an arrest warrant against Yeddyurappa who has been facing allegations of denotifying government land violating rules when he was the chief minister.

The BJP leader later surrendered before the court, which remanded him to judicial custody till October 22.

A team of doctors headed by Jayadeva Institute of Cardiology Director Dr C N Manjunath examined Yeddyurappa, sources said.

Chief Minister D V Sadananda Gowda and some of his ministerial colleagues visited the hospital and enquired about his health.

Home Minister R Ashoka, Minister for Water Resources Basavaraj Bommai, Excise Minister M P Renukacharaya, Law Minister S Suresh Kumar and Energy Minister Shobha Karandlaje also visited him, the sources said.

Several MLAs made a beeline to the ICU ward where Yeddyurappa is undergoing treatment.

Yeddyurappa, a chronic diabetic, was now suffering from high blood pressure, they said.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 16 Oct 2011 21:25
by Singha
having health issues is SOP for top politicians to evade.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 16 Oct 2011 21:46
by munna
Muppalla wrote:
James B wrote:I think defeat of congress in Hisar polls will be symbolic of Anna's fight against Congress. It will be a turning point. Exit polls predict that Congress will be in third position.
This is how media builds it. That seat was Bhajan Lal's seat and is being won by his son. It was not congress seat and congress is in decline since 2009 in Haryana even before 2G started. The congress rule is Haryana came down from 3/4 th majority to a coalition level in Haryana. Now suddenly these anti-corruption herrows claim that because of them congress is losing.
Second that, Bishnoi on his own was quite formidable but in alliance with BJP he is untouchable. Anna and his team were academic to this election. BR is causing greater dents than Anna, it will be St Bartholomew Day for JP bhai tomorrow.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 17 Oct 2011 08:14
by somaz
the a-ha moment for the Rahul Baba to address all of the poverty in the world or maybe get addmitted the school he is actually qualified to attend !!! :rotfl: :roll:

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rahul ... ay/860798/
Rahul has invited a delegation from Ralegan Siddhi, Hazare’s village, to meet him in New Delhi to talk about the village’s development works and watershed development projects as well as the Jan Lokpal Bill. Hazare began his maun vrat at his village today.

A three-member delegation including sarpanch Jaisingh Rao Mapari, Hazare’s personal secretary Suresh Pathare and Ramdas Ugale, the director of Yadavbaba Vidyalaya, a school that only admits students who fail in exams, will meet Rahul in New Delhi on October 18.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 17 Oct 2011 11:15
by Arjun
Its time to save Democracy from Oligarchy

A much bigger issue than corruption if Indian democracy is to be saved....
The biggest problem with Indian democracy is that it has been hijacked by a few families and groups who have converted parties into their fiefdoms. Consequently, democracy has slowly dissipated, giving way to oligarchy. This must change for better governance.

Hisar might become a milestone in Indian democracy for very peculiar reasons. The by-election on 13 October 2011 has been preceded by unique aggressive campaigning by a non-contesting, non-political civil society group that had no direct stake at the hustings.

Anna Hazare had given a call to the electorate to ‘defeat Congress because the Party heading the UPA Government at the Centre is dithering on the Lokpal Bill’. Claiming to be wholly ‘apolitical’ and above party politics, Team Anna has avoided extending support to any of the contestants in the fray. If the Congress loses this election, Team Anna’s tactics might emerge as a potent threat to party-based polity, because political parties have ceased to represent the people and turned into self-serving, domineering gangs.

Whereas there has been unanimity of views all through the 42-year debate on the desirability of having an effective Ombudsman (Lokpal), the political establishment has willy-nilly let eight Bills lapse. The ninth attempt is now on in the Lok Sabha. Lots of lip service and no concrete action to have it enacted into a law, has exposed the absence of political will in the ruling alliance and the Opposition alike. Whenever there had been a political will, Bills were passed in exemplary swiftness without much debate like the MPs’ Salary Bill. This stance of the political parties has led to frustration among the masses. Anna’s call to rouse the people against the Congress should therefore be seen as a public response to political arrogance.

Questions are often asked whether it is democratic for civil society groups to incite people to vote against a particular party, stage dharnas, fasts and Satyagraha with a view to ‘coercing’ the government to comply with their demands. The counter question, however, is how else will people make the unwilling government act to realise their aspirations and cherished national goals? The underlying problem is that democracy in India has been hijacked by a few families and groups who converted parties into their fiefdoms. Consequently, democracy has slowly dissipated giving way to oligarchy. Here are the facts that prove this contention.

Dynastic Control: Except perhaps the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and the Leftist parties, almost all other political parties have a Family in control. The party functionaries in such parties are favourites of the ‘Family’ rather than ‘choice’ of the people they are ‘assigned to represent’. Come election season and we find aspiring sycophants jostling, quarrelling and crying over nomination and party tickets for the ensuing polls. Honest individuals rising on their own merit from the grass-roots are viewed as potential threats as, having strong mass backing, such individuals might not hesitate to question the party high command’s policies which is not acceptable to the all-powerful High Command used to reigning supreme in unquestioned environs as is so often experienced. If criticise you must, it would be okay to find faults with ministers and even the Prime Minister but who dare criticise Madam Supreme and Rahul Gandhi? This style of party-government functioning has destroyed Constitutional institutions and reduced even the Prime Minister to a mere titular figure-heard while the power centre in New Delhi has shifted from South Block or 7, Race Course Road to 10 Janpath. The absence of Mrs Sonia Gandhi from Delhi during Anna Hazare’s fast left the Indian Government so headless that the decision-making process became a mockery bringing the country to a near chaotic situation.

‘Whip’–an Undemocratic Diktat: It has become a routine practice for the political parties to issue a ‘whip’, a mechanism devised to force their respective MPs to vote for or against a particular Bill. In the case of the Lok Sabha where there are 543 MPs, issue of whip from the Party bosses of the major parties decides the fate of a Bill. This means there are only 3-4 persons deciding matters crucial in running the nation! Conscience of individual MPs or people’s demands has no standing. Their wisdom or the opinion & mandate of the people they represent have no meaning in this farce of a democracy where the boss dictates how thou shalt vote. And what’s more, this voting culture runs against the Constitutional grain of our democracy where citizen’s individual opinion is respected and guarded through secret ballot free from all influences. Why not follow the same principle inside the House of the People, the Lok Sabha?

Inner Party Autocracy: Constitutionally, the Chief Ministers of States are required to be elected by the elected MLAs of the majority party or single-largest party. In practice, however, these ‘leaders of the legislative party’ are nominated by the party high commands in New Delhi. Likewise, ministers resigning should submit their resignations to the Chief Minister in the States and Prime Minister at the Centre; but a practice has gained currency in which they submit resignations to the Party President. A culture of sycophancy has thus mushroomed that has disoriented the democratic outlook of our polity in which favours and fears looming from the top overrun common public interests in utter disregard to people’s aspirations.

Opportunism killing Ethics: Very tempting manifestoes are publicised by all parties prior to general elections, which are hyped to display the Party’s pro-people dedication and resolve. Like marketing gimmicks, these manifestoes or promised programmes are dumped in trashcans the moment polling is over, never to be talked about for the next five years. Legislatures and governments thus are a consequence of lies and cheating. Parties that contest elections criticising the very philosophy, policies and ethos of opponent parties—often trading abuses and serious allegations on character and deeds of party leadership—show no qualms about making a sudden turnabout from their tirade, and forming alliances and governments for mutual comfort and shared exploits. Coalitions formed on the basis of shared common minimum programmes prior to the elections are visible to the electorate which is led to believe or disbelieve in the joint philosophies of such alliances. Therefore, governments formed by pre-poll coalitions have the approval of the electorate. But post-poll coming together of the erstwhile bitter enemies would be plain betrayal of the voters’ mandate. Likewise, midstream withdrawal from the coalition by member groups or parties would also betray this mandate. Therefore, there is a case for the Election Commission to examine and create a mechanism to fortify the people’s mandate by treating post-poll making or un-making of alliances as defection. Parties planning a shift in their pre-poll declared positions must seek a fresh mandate for their proposed plans.

High Offices–Prestige and Credibility Compromised: It is Constitutionally mandatory that only non-partisan, apolitical personalities of high calibre, integrity and merit should be elected/nominated to hold high Constitutional offices like the President of India, Governors and other Constitutional bodies. Wary of independent opinion and wisdom of meritorious citizens of eminence from ‘apolitical’ backgrounds, the political parties have systematically circumvented the Constitutional mandate and established a convention whereby persons of negotiable integrity, low calibre and doubtful credentials have held high offices of national prestige including the Office of the President of India, governors and other institutions. Individuals who have been active members of political parties do not become ‘apolitical’ overnight just by resigning their party memberships. Every now and then, we find State Governors getting involved in unseemly controversies involving their partisan behaviour, Gujarat and Karnataka being some of the most recent examples. What portrays the country’s highest office in a pitiable form is that even the President of India cannot say ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ on matters as simple as mercy petitions that keep lying for his/her consideration for years and decades. And this is when every such case has been thoroughly detailed, considered and passed through comprehensive legal process including review by the Supreme Court—the country’s most revered ultimate legal authority. One of the Presidents was so obsequious that he is on record having said that ‘I would sweep the room if Indiraji ever asked me to do so’. We need to restore the honour and dignity due to the nation’s highest office. But how?

Interestingly, India’s Constitution does not specify the necessity of political parties and its Founding Fathers certainly did not dream of how Democracy would be devoured by Oligarchy centring on family-controlled political parties. A question arises: Is it time for India to go for a ‘party-less democracy’?

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 17 Oct 2011 11:58
by Sanku
^^^^^^

The basic root of all problems is first past the post system in a fragmented polity.

It all starts from there. Even the points quoted above are essentially symptoms of that.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 17 Oct 2011 13:16
by Arjun
Sanku wrote:The basic root of all problems is first past the post system in a fragmented polity.

It all starts from there. Even the points quoted above are essentially symptoms of that.
Both the first-past-the-post system and dynastic politics are core issues - far more so that probably the 'right to reject / recall' proposed by Anna.

Dynastic politics cannot be completely solved even if one brings in two-stage / runoff elections to resolve the first-past-the-post problem. For example - the whole issue of Party President having far more power and authority than the PM is directly related to family control, and runoff for top 2 does not resolve this particular issue.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 17 Oct 2011 13:25
by Sanku
Arjun wrote:
Sanku wrote:The basic root of all problems is first past the post system in a fragmented polity.

It all starts from there. Even the points quoted above are essentially symptoms of that.
Both the first-past-the-post system and dynastic politics are core issues - far more so that probably the 'right to reject / recall' proposed by Anna.

Dynastic politics cannot be completely solved even if one brings in two-stage / runoff elections to resolve the first-past-the-post problem. For example - the whole issue of Party President having far more power and authority than the PM is directly related to family control, and runoff for top 2 does not resolve this particular issue.
Arjun; dynastic politics survive primarily on the basis of creating loyalists, that is a small minority who would stick with you come what may, even at the cost of majority intrests.

If you take that perspective, dynasty politics is nothing but a subset of "minority appeasement politics" -- viz choosing subsets within India carefully and pandering to their narrowest crassest impulses to gain their blind support.

Now as we already know, minority appeasement or power group politics works because of majority fragmentation and disunity -- and in terms of systemic solutions and problems :

Majority fragmentation and disunity is enshrined by first past the post in a fractured multi-polar polity.

Thus, it is that is the root cause, a run-off which sees the minority sidelined, over and over time and again would rather quickly put an end to a dynast's dreams. Heck the boot-polishers would quickly abandon the dynast seeing how a dynast cant survive by handing out pelfs and privileges in a arbitrary manner.

A first past the post system axiomatically becomes a majority democracy in a non-fragmented polity; in a fragmented one, we need other systems to capture the real voice of people and have true democracy.

The axiom here is of course no dynast can survive in a true democracy, if however a dynast can indeed establish himself democratically, he is no longer a dynast but a Appointed kingly ruler in the old Indian mold (a Indian king would also often win elections on popularity quite easily) -- even if born in a family.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 17 Oct 2011 13:39
by Singha
INC seems to have missed the #1 and #2 spots in hisar bypoll. the chautala candidate is #2.

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 17 Oct 2011 14:02
by dnivas
Singha wrote:INC seems to have missed the #1 and #2 spots in hisar bypoll. the chautala candidate is #2.
Looks like the congress guy only got around 50,000 votes. :)

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Posted: 17 Oct 2011 14:43
by Philip
Congress Kaput! This is more than a wake-up call for the Congress and SG and RG should get the message that no amount of spin can absolve the sins of the MMS regime which is still unwilling to listen to the people and has to pay the piper.

http://in.msn.com/?st=1&ar=1

Cong shocked: Loses in Mah, trails in Hisar
Anna effect: Congress loses Khadakwasla assembly by-poll, trails in Hisar, to BJP alliance
• TRS defeats Congress in Andhra by-poll• Not winning because of Anna: Bishnoi