TSJones wrote:You guys expected them not to fight? It's a foregone conclusion. Never fear Russia will prevail because the West won't intervene. But I'll tell you one thing, Russia won't get it cheap. Guaranteed. They'll have to occupy.
Wolverines!
You are talking about human lives? Just wow!!!Puleeze. I remember posters crowing on this forum when pictures were posted showing Georgian troops blown to pieces by the Russians. Some of you guys were pleased with this. So don't act all holier than thou. Don't worry. The Russians will do it again and then you can cheer. After all they're all Nazis right?johneeG wrote:TSJones wrote:You guys expected them not to fight? It's a foregone conclusion. Never fear Russia will prevail because the West won't intervene. But I'll tell you one thing, Russia won't get it cheap. Guaranteed. They'll have to occupy.
Wolverines!
You might find the Ukraines a little bit different than a bunch of Packis occupying a country they weren't even from. They may even have a few weapons that might surprise you. Just sayin'.........Philip wrote:The best way is to cut off the snake's head,that means going hell for leather for Kiev.Catch the "chickens",Turch-Enough,Arsenic,and the Wicked White Witch-Timoshenko,the nest of CIA and FBI agents at their HQ,and the Right Sector neo-Nazis in a "bear-trap".First,seize the airport,neutralise all UKR air bases,send in Spetsnaz forces,paras,and launch precision air strikes at key UKR command centres/mil targets,accompanied by armoured columns into the capital.Simultaneously columns advance into the east mopping up the RSector thugs and their comrades in arms,the "mercs",plus an assault from the sea to take Odessa.No problem here as the Crimes is already Russian territory.Without a port,Ukraine is finished.If India could seize BDesh in less than 10 days and capture 85,000+ Paki troops in the bargain,Russia can seize Kiev within 48 hrs.
.Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, ...now Ukraine.TSJones wrote:
Puleeze. I remember posters crowing on this forum when pictures were posted showing Georgian troops blown to pieces by the Russians. Some of you guys were pleased with this. So don't act all holier than thou. Don't worry. The Russians will do it again and then you can cheer. After all they're all Nazis right?
Old saying from General: (on why the Neutron Bomb project was cancelled)posters crowing on this forum when pictures were posted showing Georgian troops blown to pieces by the Russians. Some of you guys were pleased with this.
Where can I buy shares in Halliburtonski Inc in anticipation of the Reconstruction of Kiev, Odessa, Kharkhiv, Slovensk and Donetsk?Half the fun is watching the buildings fall
Volodymyr Groisman, a deputy prime minister in Kiev's embattled interim government, has what must be the toughest portfolio of all: minister of regional affairs.
But he has a plan to counter the pro-Russian rebels across Ukraine's restive east who demand a radical devolution of power from Kiev to the regions.
His idea? To implement a radical devolution of power from Kiev to the regions.
Mr. Groisman, a large, gruff man, says Ukraine's state system, which concentrates virtually all power in the central government, has been a perennial source of dysfunction in a country with 24 disparate regions. If previous leaders had been willing to devolve more powers to the grassroots, he believes, Ukraine might have avoided a decade of recurrent political crises.
"If we'd begun these basic reforms 10 or 15 years ago, Ukraine would be a successful European state by now," he says.
Fixing the problem
Groisman, who served as mayor of the central Ukrainian city of Vinnytsia for eight years, reckons that the authorities should be elected at every level, from municipal to regional to national, and that they should have as much power as they need to attend to local affairs.
Under his plan, the controversial practice of parachuting in from Kiev regional governors with vast powers would simply be abolished and replaced by a central government appointee who has no executive authority. Issues would be solved where they arise, Groisman says. Localities would have appropriate taxation powers as well as the political clout to regulate local business, protect minority rights and languages, build infrastructure, and even determine economic relations with neighboring regions and countries – a common demand of the Kremlin and anti-Kiev partisans.
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"I once heard [former Prime Minister Mykola] Azarov talking at length about a bridge to be built in Kiev. I thought 'that's ridiculous. Why is a prime minister occupying himself with a bridge?' When problems that come up at a low level are sent to the top to be resolved, that's disastrous," he says.
Groisman's blueprint for sweeping decentralization comes mainly from studying local governance in Poland. It should be ready by year's end, and the first wave of local elections under the new system could take place in 2015, he says.
Whether the interim government can even make it through the next few months is no sure thing: Ukraine faces an imploding economy, Russian troops on the border, and rebels in the eastern region of Donetsk threatening to hold an independence referendum this weekend.
But the concept of addressing Ukraine's internal divisions by spinning off power to the regions has long been under discussion in Ukraine and even has some staunch academic supporters among the Ukrainian diaspora in the US and Canada.
Ukraine's regional divisions have sharpened over the past decade. Those in the mainly agricultural and Ukrainian-speaking west hope for greater association with the European Union, which expanded right up to Ukraine's border when Poland joined in 2004. Whereas the heavily-industrialized Russian-speaking east looks more toward Russia, which saw a doubling of living standards in the first decade under President Vladimir Putin, and has also become far more assertive in its own neighborhood.
Meanwhile Ukraine – which had a pro-Western president for five years after the 2004 Orange Revolution, and then elected the now-deposed pro-Russia Viktor Yanukovych in 2010 – has stagnated economically and sunk ever deeper into a pit of corruption and oligarchic cronyism.
"The main culprit in our troubles is not Russia, but Ukrainian leaders and their circles, who, over the past 20 years have been running Ukraine like a plantation for their own enrichment," says Sergei Gaidai, a Kiev-based political consultant. "As a result, Ukraine's national institutions are underdeveloped. We have a country, but we don't have a state."
A balm for east and west?
It's not clear whether rebels in the east, who use the Kremlin-authored term "federalization" to describe their demands for greater autonomy, would be satisfied by Groisman's plan.
Russia has not spelled out its definition of "federalization," but it would clearly involve the right of eastern Ukrainian leaders to set their own foreign policy to some degree, in order to maintain strong links with Moscow. Groisman says he suspects the Kremlin wants to turn Ukraine into something like Bosnia, which has three presidents representing separate ethnic cantons, and complete paralysis at the central level.
"If you ask me whether this [decentralization] plan will make Ukraine stronger and its citizens freer, I would answer definitely, yes," says Groisman. "If you ask me whether this will satisfy Putin, I just don't know. But I don't think so."
He says his reform plan has many opponents, especially within Ukraine's entrenched bureaucracy, but also among some political forces whom he declines to name.
One of those would certainly be the ultra-nationalist Right Sector, a paramilitary group that helped to spearhead the Maidan revolution that brought the interim government to power, but now distrusts its intentions, particularly when it comes to power-sharing.
"These reforms suggested by Groisman are intended as practical concessions to the separatists in the east, but they are a path to nowhere," says Oleg Odnorozhenko, a Right Sector leader. "The post-Yanukovych local elites want to preserve the old system, but gain more control in their own regions. It's a fake reform."
But the idea does appear to have support among Kiev political experts. Most argue that the Maidan revolution has created Ukraine's best – and perhaps last – chance to break away from its post-Soviet malaise and chart a new, democratic, and modern path.
"Call it whatever you like, federalization, decentralization, or enhanced local self-government," says Vira Nanivska, honorary president of the International Center for Policy Studies in Kiev. "Let's just do it, properly and to the end. And that's how we'll defeat Putin."
Washington Post @washingtonpost 4h
Ukraine's third-largest city has now been swept by the same battle as the country's east http://wapo.st/1g40zP1
On Monday, families buried their dead, the injured recuperated in hospitals and mourners arranged flowers at makeshift shrines. Many here are using the word “genocide” to describe the blaze that killed dozens of pro-Russian activists trapped in the House of Trade Unions when someone set the building on fire with a gasoline bomb.
...
And rumors are spreading through this city of 1 million. Someone has poisoned the drinking water, people said Monday. More clashes are coming within days, others said. City authorities, fearing violence, have banned a parade Friday on Victory Day, a holiday of preeminent importance in Russia.
Khodorkovsky said that was a terrible idea, one that might stoke tensions among Russians who feel they are being disrespected. “Nobody in Ukraine has a right to humiliate Soviet history,” he said. “You would be an idiot not to understand the reasons for the conflict.”
only in fantasy land. Nowadays, they take up more of destructive and deconstruction activities and reconstruction isn't in the halliburtonski agenda at all. WinkUlanBatori wrote:Old saying from General: (on why the Neutron Bomb project was cancelled)posters crowing on this forum when pictures were posted showing Georgian troops blown to pieces by the Russians. Some of you guys were pleased with this.Where can I buy shares in Halliburtonski Inc in anticipation of the Reconstruction of Kiev, Odessa, Kharkhiv, Slovensk and Donetsk?Half the fun is watching the buildings fall
The Associated Press @AP 28m
BREAKING: Ukrainian Interior Minister claims 30 pro-Russia insurgents killed during security operations.
Hindustan Times @htTweets 44m
All flights in and out of Ukraine's Donetsk suspended: AFP
Err. Are you crediting Ms Potty Mouth with more intelligence than what seems apparent. If the stuff coming out of her mouth is any indication, chances are that more of that is packed between her ears than gray matter.This whole mess can be laid at the doorstep of the DoS in general and Victoria Nuland in particular
New Indian Express @NewIndianXpress 17m
#Ukraine Deploys Force in #Odessa to Terminate Crisis - http://tnie.in/1im44jM pic.twitter.com/QbJf7uhuyB
Ukrainian authorities have sent a special force unit to the southern port of Odessa to try and halt the fighting between government troops and pro-Russia militants, a media report said Tuesday.
Kiev said the force, based on "civil activists", would replace local police who had failed to tackle rebel actions over the weekend, Xinhua reported.
...
The dispatch of the special force was seen as a signal that Kiev fears the situation in Odessa will escalate into a civil war while it is tackling rebellion in the east.
The loss of Odessa would be catastrophic for the new government in Kiev, leaving the country cut off from the Black Sea.
Ukraine lost a significant part of its coastline in March, when its Crimean Peninsula voted to join Russia.
Meanwhile, Kiev launched a fresh wave of "anti-terror" operations in the eastern city of Sloviansk Monday to reclaim the city, which has been under the control of pro-Russian activists.
At least four Ukrainian servicemen were killed and 30 injured during the operation, the Interior Ministry said.
That's why I wrote in a previous post that we shoulds view the NATO as a "trade union" of criminals, it gives them collective bullying power, their power (economic, political, media, military, etc.) is unmatched, they literally get away with murder.RSoami wrote, page 48:
This is entirely because west could not, cannot and will not reconcile itself to peaceful existence with any country that pursues an independent foreign policy and does not tow the American line. Toeing that line also is no insurance against blatant interference, violence, threat and military assaults.
Yup, atlanticist call it "de-Sovietization", meaning they erase Russia's natural bond with countries like Serbia, Ukraine and Belarus. But that's not all, they also want to subvert the identity of Russia itself. They couch it in innocuous language like "making Russia more democratic", etc.Clearly Obama believes that gradual erosion of Russian influence in states around it is the best way to destroy Russia. I have more faith in Russia`s ability to survive despite the treacherous underhand evil handiworks of the US and its stooges.
And let me be clear - I don't want to see Russia disintegrate. Nor does the EU. That would be an enormous mess for Europe, far, far messier than the fall of the Soviet Union.
This is the "speak with forked tongue" UB mentioned in one of his posts.RSoami wrote:
Dunno about you but the EU wouldn`t mind disintegration of Russia. Nor USA. They still thump their chest and claim victory in the cold war after the disintegration of USSR in spite of the fact that it was USSR`s internal economic issues that were the major cause.
There. Fixed it.johneeG wrote:Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, ...now Ukraine.TSJones wrote:
Puleeze. I remember posters crowing on this forum when pictures were posted showing Georgian troops blown to pieces by the Russians. Some of you guys were pleased with this. So don't act all holier than thou. Don't worry. The Russians will do it again and then you can cheer. After all they're all Nazis right?
Iran and NoKo are in the pipeline.
Meanwhile, springs in Egypt.
The number of human beingsdyingbeing killed by Anglo-Saxons in all these events is just incredible.
If this is not propaganda what is. There are many countries in Europe where denial of Nazi crimes(read holocaust) is a crime including Germany. But the same in Russia is an attempt to curb freedom of speech. Isnt this how Russia is authoritarian and the west democratic. Cool.Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a law on Monday making the denial of Nazi crimes and distortion of the Soviet Union's role in World War II a criminal offense punishable by up to five years in jail.
The law, described by critics as an attempt to curb freedom of expression to appease conservative Russians, Putin's main support base, also criminalizes the desecration of war memorials.
.Acting Ukrainian President Oleksandr Turchynov said Monday he was prepared to negotiate with pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine who are seeking more autonomy.
But in a phone call with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, he said discussions with "someone who picks up and uses weapons against citizens of Ukraine" would be impossible.
Keir Simmons @KeirSimmons 39m
On the @TODAYshow live from Ukraine... NATO's militarily commander says President Putin is accomplishing 'his objectives' in Ukraine.
Los Angeles Times @latimes 1h
Ukraine troops ambushed by pro-Russia gunmen; at least 14 killed http://lat.ms/1iknxBr
Times of India @timesofindia 3m
Germany says Ukraine is close to war, widens travel warning http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 741150.cms
Financial Times @FT 57m
Hollande warns of further "chaos and risk of civil war" if Ukraine's May 25 presidential election is postponed: http://on.ft.com/1j7FisE
Washington Post @washingtonpost 1h
Ukrainians call for volunteers to help quell separatist uprising http://wapo.st/1nl1kIM
Ukraine crisis: Moldova on high alert as fighting intensifies
Ukrainian government says 30 pro-Russian rebels killed in Slovyansk
Lizzie Dearden
Tuesday 06 May 2014
Moldova’s government has put its borders on alert as violence intensifies in Ukraine with the death of 30 pro-Russian militants in battles with the army.
The Ukrainian government claimed the rebels were killed by troops near Slovyansk in what it called an “anti-terror” operation against militias occupying parts of the eastern city.
Four government troops also died and another 20 were injured during gun battles, the Interior Minister, Arsen Avakov, said.
Troops created a security cordon around the city on Sunday and moved in on Monday in an apparent attempt to trap pro-Russian forces.
The intervention came days after rebels shot down two Ukrainian helicopters in the outskirts of Slovyansk and another was brought down on Monday.
It is one of several Ukrainian cities where pro-Russian separatists have seized official buildings and many fear violence will escalate as the government continues its military crackdown.
Conflict has been spreading from the country’s east, erupting in the south-western Black Sea port of Odessa, where dozens of people were killed in riots last week.
It is less than 45 miles from Odessa, on the south coast, to the Moldovan border.
The country’s government put its borders on high alert on Monday, citing concerns about the escalating violence and deteriorating security situation in Ukraine.
President Nicolae Timofti, Prime Minister Iurie Leanca and Parliament speaker Igor Coreman said in a joint statement that security forces had been ordered “to take all necessary actions to ensure public order inside the country.”
Moldova, a former part of the Soviet Union, is sandwiched between Ukraine and Romania.
Much of its 750-mile border with Ukraine is controlled by pro-Russian groups and there are 1,500 Russian troops stationed in a separatist republic of Trans-Dniester, which recently asked to be united with Russia.
The Russian government has said it respects Moldova's territorial integrity in the past but leaders are concerned about unrest in Trans-Dniester.
William Hague, the Foreign Minister, held talks with Moldovan authorities on Monday, and said the country should move forward with talks toward closer ties to the European Union without being seen as a threat to Russia.
He said Britain is “strongly opposed to any external pressure or any violations of sovereignty and territorial integrity.”
After the annexation of the Crimean peninsula by Russia, fears of the loss of more territories have grown.
Donetsk airport, south of Slovyansk, has been closed a day after troops mounted an offensive against pro-Russian forces that killed at least a dozen people.
A statement published on the Donetsk airport website on Tuesday said the facility was closed to departing and arriving flights because of a government order.
Officials in Kiev gave no information about the closure and an airport spokeswoman said she had not received any information about how long the it would continue.
Yesterday, gun battles killed at least four Ukrainian officers as well as at least eight other people, both civilians and pro-Russian militants.
BBC News (World) @BBCWorld 7m
Russia rules out holding fresh talks to defuse #Ukraine crisis unless pro-Russian opposition groups are involved http://bbc.in/1jx7eG0
May be OT but I am getting a new appreciation of India's civilizational values which give us the polytheistic pluralistic template for running a sustainable and wise society. These Euro-societies are revealing that they are at the limit of their civilization building skills and they are closed for any new learning.JE Menon wrote:The wolves are beginning to circle, but not Ukraine... which is already gone as a country.
You simply have no idea of what you are talking about do you?ShankarCag wrote:^^^^Please do so. Last I checked the wolves had the largest prison population in the world and a substantial majority of its population was on welfare stamps and were meth addicts.
PS:Is it true that 3M are in prison in the US,the global record,and that 1 in 3 Blacks have criminal records? What about the secret Camp 7 at Gitmo? What gives there?Ukraine crisis worsens amid intense fighting and warnings of civil war
Casualties on both sides as Kiev attempts to regain control of east and Russia insists that rebels be included in talks on equal terms
Harriet Salem in Slavyansk, Howard Amos in Odessa and Shaun Walker in Donetsk
The Guardian, Tuesday 6 May 2014 19.32 BST
A pro-Russia militant guards a barricade outside Kramatorsk city hall, eastern Ukraine. Photograph: Genya Savilov/AFP/Getty Images
A day after intense fighting in eastern Ukraine, the region remained on the brink of civil war as a diplomatic initiative to end the confrontation floundered, with Russia insisting that the rebels holding much of the south and east of the country should be included in talks on equal terms with the Kiev government.
The French president, François Hollande, warned that "chaos and the risk of civil war" were looming in Ukraine, while the German foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, said "we are not far from a military confrontation".
The Ukrainian army's attempts to regain control of the east of the country, termed an "anti-terrorist operation", is partly meant to prevent a referendum on secession from going ahead on Sunday in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, but has already led to casualties on both sides in Slavyansk, the most fortified rebel stronghold.
In Slavyansk on Tuesday, shocked locals picked their way through the mess outside their homes, discovering broken windows, pools of blood and bullet-riddled fences a day after fighting that caused casualties on both sides. "They just came and started shooting at us. There was no warning," one Slavyansk resident told the Guardian. "Look, everything is destroyed." Most residents appear to blame the Ukrainian army for the violence. "They [the rebels] are peaceful people, they never shot anyone and now these fascists come and try to kill us," one woman said.
Four Ukrainian soldiers were killed during the confrontation. Rebels also reportedly shot down a helicopter, the third to have been felled in the past three days.
Writing on his Facebook page, Ukraine's interior minister, Arsen Avakov, said 30 pro-Russia gunmen had been killed. "We estimate that the terrorists lost more than 30 people," Avakov wrote. The figure could not be verified. A spokesperson for Slavyansk's self-appointed people's mayor, the local rebel leader Vyacheslav Ponomarev, said the militia body count stood at 10, with another 17 seriously wounded.
One bystander was reported to have been shot and killed in the crossfire while smoking a cigarette on her balcony on Monday. The civilian death follows that of 21-year-old nurse Yulia Izotova, who died after being hit by a stray bullet during clashes three days ago. Her funeral, held in Kramatorsk on Monday, was attended by hundreds of mourners.
On Tuesday around midday, a car reportedly tore through a militia checkpoint and opened fire in the centre of the city. Video footage shows one person being stretchered away from the scene. A receptionist at a nearby hotel said she heard the gunfire and ducked under her desk. The militia briefly closed the area down before reopening it later in the afternoon, but the bullet hole riddled vehicle was left ominously at the side of the road.
Slavyansk residents are now bracing for what seems to many an inevitable war on their doorsteps. "We are very anxious," said 27-year-old Aleksander as he visited his local shop to stock up on provisions with his three-year-old daughter. "Shops are selling out of food. People can't work. Life has stopped." Cashpoints have run out of money, local transport has ground to a halt and most businesses have closed altogether.
Several residents told the Guardian that following the recent clashes, they were ready to join the pro-Russia rebels. "If this goes on, then what choice does a man have other than to stand up, to defend his wife, his family, his city?" said 58-year-old Vladimir. "Our grandfathers fought the fascists from 1941 to 1945 and won. We will follow in their footsteps." One of the local militia commanders said hundreds of men were signing up to join their ranks. "We can't even accept them all because we don't have enough weapons, for now," he said.
But as the Ukraine army edged forward into Slavyansk, the pro-Russia militia groups appeared to be making gains on another front. In nearby Donetsk, the regional administrative headquarters, gunmen are now operating openly on the street, a distinct change from a week ago. Nearly all state buildings and some private businesses in the city have been seized.
With most of the state security buildings in the region captured by local militia there was no resistance from law enforcement officials. On Monday a group of armed men appeared to attempt to seize a local military training school but later withdrew after some negotiations. A cache of arms might be stored inside.
In Odessa, the number of fatalities during last week's violence in Odessa looked set to rise on Tuesday, with local media speculating that the final death toll could be over 100.
The official figure for those killed in the clashes between pro-Ukraine groups and pro-Russia activists currently stands at 46. Local police refused to rule out that more deaths could be confirmed. An investigation with the assistance of experts from Europe and Israel was ongoing, said newly appointed Odessa police chief Ivan Katerinchuk.
The situation in the Black Sea city remained tense. Two checkpoints around the city were attacked overnight by unknown assailants who threw molotov cocktails, one local pro-Ukraine activist wrote on Facebook.
The government in Kiev intensified its efforts to reassert control, with the appointment of a new governor and the arrival of national guard units from Kiev. A new interior ministry law enforcement group called "Storm" would be used to guard public buildings, according to Katerinchuk.
Fearing unrest, Odessa has cancelled all large public events scheduled to mark the upcoming 9 May holidays that commemorate victory over Nazi Germany in 1945.
Kiev has accused Russia of stirring up tension with propaganda that the interim government formed after President Viktor Yanukovych fled in February was made up of "fascists", and of arming and directing the separatists.
In Kiev, there are still fears that President Vladimir Putin might order a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, with the Kremlin saying in recent days that it had received thousands of calls from "ordinary Ukrainians" asking for protection. So far, however, a decision seems to have been taken not to invade. And while many of the rebel-held checkpoints are flying Russian flags, Moscow is unlikely to attempt a full "Crimea-style" annexation of eastern Ukraine.
Moscow is pushing strongly however for Ukrainian presidential elections, scheduled for 25 May, to be postponed. Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said on Tuesday that it would be "unusual" to hold elections during an armed operation in part of the country. Putin has called the May elections "absurd"
What about the secret Camp 7 at Gitmo? What gives there?
You've heard of secret Camp 7 ?? Dang, how did that get out? Now we have to move it again. This time we'll move it to...Diego Garcia where we have underwater storage structures! You know, there is just not enough land there so we have to be creative about our prison cells. Secret Camp 7 is Christiandom's toughest prison camp where we put British cousins there when they get too nosey. Be afraid, be very afraid! Talk about an international exchange: the Ukrainian Houris providing inspiration to the Bollywood/related industry, and RIUGS in the Ukrainian Space Tech universities! One team looked like from a Kharkiv university. Wonder how these kids are surviving there.Crediting her with screwing up and landing Obama with a problem he did not want. Hubby is Robert Kagan. Known maximalist and propounder of full spectrum US global domination.vina wrote:Err. Are you crediting Ms Potty Mouth with more intelligence than what seems apparent. If the stuff coming out of her mouth is any indication, chances are that more of that is packed between her ears than gray matter.This whole mess can be laid at the doorstep of the DoS in general and Victoria Nuland in particular