Artillery Discussion Thread

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 31 Dec 2011 16:41

Well, I sure as hell hope that this news is true and we'll be getting the badly needed Arty pieces soon.

Chacko sir,
Thanks for the verification. Do give a buzz next time you are down here. I owe you a drink.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Dec 2011 17:05

Bala Vignesh wrote:Well, I sure as hell hope that this news is true and we'll be getting the badly needed Arty pieces soon.

Chacko sir,
Thanks for the verification. Do give a buzz next time you are down here. I owe you a drink.

Hahahaha! Dring an extra for me tonight. I don't drink. For most who would like to reward, at least take off your ad block software's or make an exception for Frontier India. And forgive the fact that they are too intrusive, there is a little poison in every medicine.

vic · Post by **vic** » 31 Dec 2011 17:29

chackojoseph wrote:OFB to develop 155mm artillery guns for the Indian Army

hahah, no mutton, no drinks.

Mihir.D I am in Mumbai.

Can you ask them to comment on news report of Dainik Bhasker on P-155? Because your article is update of old news that OFB has been asked to turn out 155mm gun in 18 months.

Also is it possible to write directly to kanpur OFB from where the news is supposedly originated?

As we are on the topic what about new INSAS from Isapore OFB?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Dec 2011 18:27

Vic,

I have given my perspective. Someone just sent this to me LINK . You can clearly see that version given by us is more relevant. There is no other such project.

vic · Post by **vic** » 31 Dec 2011 20:24

I agree, thanx chacko. Can you pls pls find out about the new INSAS thingie also?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 31 Dec 2011 20:58

chackojoseph wrote:OFB to develop 155mm artillery guns for the Indian Army

hahah, no mutton, no drinks.

Mihir.D I am in Mumbai.

I too am in Mumbai. Why don't we meet one of these days, preferably on weekends ?
K

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Dec 2011 21:33

Kersi D wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:OFB to develop 155mm artillery guns for the Indian Army

hahah, no mutton, no drinks.

Mihir.D I am in Mumbai.
I too am in Mumbai. Why don't we meet one of these days, preferably on weekends ?
K

Pls mail at frontierindia at gmail dot com.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 31 Dec 2011 21:47

Fine chackoEtta, how about a lunch/ dinner when you are down here???

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Dec 2011 22:13

Bala Vignesh wrote:Fine chackoEtta, how about a lunch/ dinner when you are down here???

Thanks mate. Please mail me at the given number.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Dec 2011 22:43

nice.. for the first time I hear the gun would be based on "user experience".

btw, chacko it is one thing to copyright materials, and it is entirely a different thing to quote a few lines from your edit.

it is against BR type of user experience!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Dec 2011 22:52

SaiK wrote:nice.. for the first time I hear the gun would be based on "user experience".

btw, chacko it is one thing to copyright materials, and it is entirely a different thing to quote a few lines from your edit.

it is against BR type of user experience!

saiK,

Indian Army has been using 155mm, so OFB plans to use that.

I didn't get the second part. Anyway, the low life's in defence . pee kay have copied the article in full and in spite of of repeated warnings. Some Indians are more Pakis than Pakis themselves. Pakis must be laughing that the "Indian Dogs" are licking pakis for a few dollars.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jan 2012 11:42

speaking of semi-insane concepts what do folks think of a new age M551 sheridan as our infantry support and indirect fire weapon in the mountains?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p37XYCRogA8

it had a low velocity 152mm gun and very lightly armoured, able to be paradropped if roads did not exist.

the entire tank kind of rolled back with the recoil but could be fixed with a retractable anchor system like all truck mounted SP guns use.

maybe OFB could play around and put a short barrel version of fh77 gun onto a BMP2 and call it a "light SP gun system"

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jan 2012 12:27

how heavy is the kit and kaboodle for the 81mm and 120mm mortars ? ie the tube, legs and base plate?

have there been innovations lately like using titanium for all these parts to make it 5 times lighter? essential for mountain ops and people can move faster.

per a old film I saw two strong men were turning a handle to align the 120mm tube to a elevation, is there any scope to make it easier for humans? the commentator in old DD tone was proudly saying it needs muscles of steel to operate the 120mm mortar.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Jan 2012 12:38

^^^ the turning of the handle can be automated by adding a servo drive. It even doesnt need an LCD four way arrow keys in cellphone can drive two servo motors for elevation and direction. It is child's play for DRDO wonder why they havent done it till date. Of course it comes with the pitfall that sometimes the motors could fail but in those cases the mechanical option can always be exercised

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 01 Jan 2012 12:42

If we have our own towed artilerry, can the OFB also look at SP artillery too? Surely they have access to a platform to fit a gun and associated equipment and call it a desi sp artillery and offer it to the IA. All they needed is a gun system. Now that they seem to have it, why not build the heck out of it in all forms possible?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Jan 2012 12:55

Prasad wrote:If we have our own towed artilerry, can the OFB also look at SP artillery too? Surely they have access to a platform to fit a gun and associated equipment and call it a desi sp artillery and offer it to the IA. All they needed is a gun system. Now that they seem to have it, why not build the heck out of it in all forms possible?

Its a possibility on Arjun chassis. But, Let them first make the equipment. Even if they can get ready the system minus the carriage, then they can do it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jan 2012 23:17

I did some R&D on the 120mm mortar thing. it seems OFB manufactures a giant old kit that is stuck on top of a towable trailer http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wme/3.htm
must be made of steel and cast iron because the barrel is 70kg and base plate is 80kg.

IA must be looking to replace this ugly dog because livefist reports a RFP was sent out
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/04/in ... ortar.html

on the other hand the US army operates a much lighter 120mm from both ground position and fitted inside M113 (being inside M113 makes leveling and adjusting the base plate easier)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dh2kDy4HXQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duT3g-WjZh8

- adjustments look very easy - no more than adjusting a camera tripod - no visible use of strength
- per some comments, 2 people can carry the barrel and the baseplate now uses aluminium rather than cast iron and 3 people can carry it easily.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M120_120_mm_mortar

specs of the soltam system used by US army indicate the barrel and baseplate are each 20kg lighter than our OFB towed model....

its probably this kind of system the IA is looking for.

upto 81mm mortar atleast it looks like a regular mortar in IA, though I am sure materials have advanced from whatever old design OFB is making to make it lighter...

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 02 Jan 2012 00:25

So, the Dainik Bhaskar report was BS?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jan 2012 10:07

Singha the recoil forces of a 120mm mortar are very high and have to be absorbed by the base plate before being transmitted to the ground. Vehicle mounted versions have a heavy chassis to pass the shock to the ground.

vic · Post by **vic** » 02 Jan 2012 10:45

There were some reports that Israeli won the tender for new 120m mortars as their mortar weighed 170kg compared to DRDO 250kg. USA is even working on mortars using composites which might be super light

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jan 2012 11:04

Composites are for the barrel. Filament wound on a Ti liner. Still need a base plate to distribute the shock load.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jan 2012 13:55

> Vehicle mounted versions have a heavy chassis to pass the shock to the ground.

I think the advantage is the base plate remains solid when bolted and fixed inside the vehicle but when dug into the ground it can push the soil unevenly and get out of alignment needing more frequent adjustments to retain accuracy.

this seems like one area where our r&d on rocket motors and RV casings could help.

comment in youtube about the us army mortar:
This Mortar system is a 120mm so it is usually mounted on M113s that are equipped as Mortar tracks. They have a rotary base plate system that can be used to adjust for deflection and elevation much easier than a ground mounted unit.

The base plate is about the heaviest part of the system and takes 2-3 people to move easily.

The tube itself can be moved easily by 2 people but some people are dumb enough to pick one up on their own.

The 120mm Mortars weigh about 35 pounds each.

Soltam has the cool Cardom kit with a rotating base plate (powered by motors surely) on a M113 and *trucks* and even *jeeps*...no doubt we could use it in BMP chassis or any light tank chassis...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6XXBIys ... re=related

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jan 2012 15:19

We have BMP-II mounted 81mm Mortar Tracked Carriers. These are integral to the Mech. Regiment. 120mm Mortars are not part of mechanized formations in India. These are with Light Arty Regiments.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Jan 2012 15:40

Kakkaji wrote:So, the Dainik Bhaskar report was BS?

Actually, there was a tender floated and the advt was in Dainik Bhaskar. Someone goofed up there.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jan 2012 17:51

perhaps infantry units can get the 120mm mobile mortars while light arty units move to a more automated soln like the wiesel type things on bmp2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qln3hVoe8qA

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Jan 2012 18:24

Nice video on Indian Arty
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbxVnEDKSZw

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jan 2012 20:00

Singha wrote:perhaps infantry units can get the 120mm mobile mortars while light arty units move to a more automated soln like the wiesel type things on bmp2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qln3hVoe8qA

I think mobility is the key here. The best of the 120mm mortars seem to be pretty heavy and except for short burts, I don't think we can call them man-portable. 81mm are integral artillery to infantry units and need to be manportable.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jan 2012 20:28

shiv wrote:Nice video on Indian Arty<SNIP>

Excellent video. Filled with real-josh. Reminded me of a gun-laying demo in me childhood.
Just a tid-bit - the height requirement in the medium regiment is (was?) 5.8 minimum. Just watch-out for jawans with M-46 and Bofors guns in the vid above. Another important point - the soldiers can move out the 3,000 kgs+ IFG in under 5-minutes - this when it does not have an APU. Guns like Bofors can move out that much faster and that too, on their own power.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 02 Jan 2012 20:50

shiv wrote:Nice video on Indian Arty
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbxVnEDKSZw

a gem of a comment

If the USA told the Pakistani intel service to find their own asses in the dark, they would ask for 75 bucks to buy a flashlight.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 02 Jan 2012 21:39

Bofors 155 mm FH-77B howitzer
The towed 130 mm M-46 field gun and the 130 mm Catapult self-propelled gun
The 122 mm D-30 towed howitzer
The 105 mm Light Field Gun
75 mm Pack Gun-Howitzer
The 160 mm M58 Tampella heavy mortar
I found this list of Indian artillery and mortars.Is this complete ? Any inputs would be welcome

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jan 2012 22:21

The 160mm mortars where are they assigned? And do they work?

Any thoughts on fitting a Krasnopol type fuze on them?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jan 2012 23:47

aniket wrote:Bofors 155 mm FH-77B howitzer
The towed 130 mm M-46 field gun and the 130 mm Catapult self-propelled gun
The Catapult is not in service any more
The 122 mm D-30 towed howitzer
The 105 mm Light Field Gun
This is lighter version of 105mm Indian Field Gun
75 mm Pack Gun-Howitzer
I don't think this is service any more
The 160 mm M58 Tampella heavy mortar
AFAIK, only couple of regiments
I found this list of Indian artillery and mortars.Is this complete ? Any inputs would be welcome
This is very much the list. Just add 120mm mortar.

schowdhuri · Post by **schowdhuri** » 03 Jan 2012 01:48

Singha,
The 120mm morter you showed were there when my father commanded a light battery sometime around 1976 - just shows the wonderful progress Arty has been making.

Aniket,
The 122mm is a horrible gun that India was forced to buy as part of the M-46 deal. Although my father was from Arty, the only place I ever saw it was in School Of Arty (Devlali) firepower demos (in the early 80's), and no-one had anything nice to say about it. It would be tragic if it is still in service.

There also used to be a 100mm field gun.

There used be 3 types of 75mm gun, the Yugoslav one, the American one (pack howitzer), and the Indian 75/24.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 03 Jan 2012 03:31

interesting schowdhuri

what was the SUs interest in forcing the 122mm down our throat??

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jan 2012 09:34

perhaps in typical SU style they produced 10,000 pieces without asking anyone and their forces did not want so many!

on 2nd thought I take back the Wiesel reco - the tube has to return to a loading position after every round...just does not have the effect of a couple of guys loading in rounds by hand in terms of burst fire. the +ve is the crew are protected from shell fragments and small arms inside but then a mortar vehicle should really be getting away fast if subjected to artillery or small arms fire. the americans have the right idea with the M113 carrier and the Pakis I am sure have that piece of kit too given they license make the M113 in ample nos.

why dont we start a production line for a M113 - it ought to be really cheap, is proven for decades, highly mobile and like the C130 is adaptable to a lot of roles like ambulance, people mover, HMG nest, mortar post, command vehicle, recce vehicle, ..... given its vintage khan might even allow us to put a local engine like the AL stallion engine on it to further reduce the cost.

schowdhuri · Post by **schowdhuri** » 03 Jan 2012 20:34

Surya wrote:interesting schowdhuri

what was the SUs interest in forcing the 122mm down our throat??

Singha has already answered the question. Apparently this was a normal tactic of the SU with us, hidden from normal eyes. How many of you have seen the GAZ jeep for instance

The funny thing about the 1222mm gun was the hook in front of the muzzle brake, and the gun was towed by the barrel, not by the trail, and the gun would be elevated up, with the trail spread around (something like the old AD guns).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jan 2012 20:47

was this GAZ jeep thing issued to the recce elements of our armour divs. recall reading some post about it in br recently. ugly looking piece of work but huge ground clearance. or am I talking about the UAZ?

schowdhuri · Post by **schowdhuri** » 03 Jan 2012 22:23

Singha wrote:was this GAZ jeep thing issued to the recce elements of our armour divs. recall reading some post about it in br recently. ugly looking piece of work but huge ground clearance. or am I talking about the UAZ?

Not sure about armour divs, but I hope not. When the SU gave us equipment for SATA batteries (each arty brigade has 1 SATA battery, or at least that is how it used to be), the stuff had to be 'hosted' on the GAZ jeeps, which I gave as another example of a forced buy. The pink weather ballons were great though - wonderful for b'day parties.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 03 Jan 2012 23:02

schowdhuri wrote: Aniket,
The 122mm is a horrible gun that India was forced to buy as part of the M-46 deal. Although my father was from Arty, the only place I ever saw it was in School Of Arty (Devlali) firepower demos (in the early 80's), and no-one had anything nice to say about it. It would be tragic if it is still in service.

There also used to be a 100mm field gun.

There used be 3 types of 75mm gun, the Yugoslav one, the American one (pack howitzer), and the Indian 75/24.

The 100mm field gun which I took a picture of on a recent trip to Devlali. From the second picture, the gun was phased out in just 2 years

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 03 Jan 2012 23:05

Thanks schowdhri

Our resident russophiles have anything to comment??