LCA News and Discussions

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Karan M
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

srai wrote: Doing some simple calculations, we can roughly figure out the range for the fatigue life of the airframe. Given that an air force pilot flies on an average 120-200 hours a year, we can use that as our basis for an estimate.
The figure is 150-200+ easy, for fighter pilots. 150 translating to 300, 30 min sorties on the older endurance limited MiG-21s, 180 hours is the standard expected for the rest as Jaguar, Mirage pilots pull longer sorties, and the Su-30 pilots have even gone on multi-hour flights. 120 hours is a severe underestimate for the average fully ops pilot.
Also, we can extrapolate from the flight testing that the LCA on average flies ~40mins sorties.
Extrapolating this from the test flying is not correct. The earlier LCAs dont have the On board oxgen generating sets the production versions will have. Nor do the earlier prototypes have the avionics to fly at optimum cruising altitude for range, and even the wing tanks came later into the program.
Last edited by Karan M on 31 Oct 2010 04:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

Reflecting a heavy-low mix is what we needed then, why waste $12b on this. Now, if that is worthy of anything then the Khans have enough money to put in $20b 10 squadron team on a joint-partnership basis somewhere in the Indian subcontinent. We get free training and NATO operations and exercise just for providing a base. I am sure, Obamonimcs will throw this money from left pocket.

I am guessing there must have been some future-full thinking on going for the M word. It may depend on how the chinpacks proliferate (hopefully this again is not from a Western view point and politics, but a genuine situation), we need more anti-sub surface warfare crafts and technology rather [SUBROC/ASROC].

It is interesting to note that point, and opens an entirely new thinking for MRCA role.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

"Reflecting a heavy-low mix is what we needed then, why waste $12b on this. "

Simple. IAF wanted more Mirage 2000s, CAG said no single vendors allowed, and more money became available, so the IAF ended up throwing a wide net with all sorts of differing classes of fighters in the mix. Add politics and the MMRCA contest is now a given.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by srai »

Karan M wrote:
srai wrote: Doing some simple calculations, we can roughly figure out the range for the fatigue life of the airframe. Given that an air force pilot flies on an average 120-200 hours a year, we can use that as our basis for an estimate.
The figure is 150-200+ easy, for fighter pilots. 150 translating to 300, 30 min sorties on the older endurance limited MiG-21s, 180 hours is the standard expected for the rest as Jaguar, Mirage pilots pull longer sorties, and the Su-30 pilots have even gone on multi-hour flights. 120 hours is a severe underestimate for the average fully ops pilot.

...
Yes, you are right that there will be more flying when fully ops mode and sortie time varies. But my calculations are an average per year spread over 25 years and divided among squadron aircrafts.

Also, there is a mandatory "rest" period per pilot after a certain number of flight hours a month (during peacetime operations).
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

Dividing hours between all the squadron aircraft would reduce the hours, but 120 hours still seems too low.

As in, 1.25 pilots per aircraft - actually higher, as right now, there are more pilots than aircraft, so take 1.5, and that translates to 270 hours per airframe, at 180 hours of flying task per year, per pilot. When a pilot is posted to staff, his overall flying hours averaged out across his career may come down, but in practical terms, the airframes are still being utilized as his earlier role at the squadron level continues with somebody else.

Consider a squadron of 20 planes, and 16 as being flight-worthy at all times, and 4 rotating through maintenance, that's 4,320 hours overall, and still 216 hours per airframe when averaged out across the 20 airframes. For a squadron of sixteen, and 12 flying, 4 in maintenance the same method translates to 202 hours, per airframe.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Kran, I have replied in the MMRCA thread.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by srai »

Karan M wrote:Dividing hours between all the squadron aircraft would reduce the hours, but 120 hours still seems too low.

As in, 1.25 pilots per aircraft - actually higher, as right now, there are more pilots than aircraft, so take 1.5, and that translates to 270 hours per airframe, at 180 hours of flying task per year, per pilot. When a pilot is posted to staff, his overall flying hours averaged out across his career may come down, but in practical terms, the airframes are still being utilized as his earlier role at the squadron level continues with somebody else.

Consider a squadron of 20 planes, and 16 as being flight-worthy at all times, and 4 rotating through maintenance, that's 4,320 hours overall, and still 216 hours per airframe when averaged out across the 20 airframes. For a squadron of sixteen, and 12 flying, 4 in maintenance the same method translates to 202 hours, per airframe.
Yes, 120 is low. That is why I had put that at the low minimum per airframe life over 25 years. I was going by this article on the MiG-21s getting additional 1,000 life extension (or "8 to 10 years of life", which means around 100 to 125hrs/year per airframe) and applying that to LCA, since at the minimum LCA would need to fly similar number of hours/year.

Indian Air Force's MiG 21 Bison's get 1000 flying hours extension
006-08-17 Times of India reports that the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) have upgraded the life span of the Air Force's MiG 21 Bison fleet.

The upgraded MiG 21 Bison's have now an additional 1000 hours of flight, which is roughly 8-10 years of life.

These results come after NAL's successful completion of Full-Scale Fatigue Testing (FSFT) on the MiG 21 Bison Airframe C-2090. With this the IAF's Total Technical Life Enhancement (TTLE) project has come to an end.

The Air Force's Bison fleet is of 150 aircraft which originally had 2400 hours of flying as per the Russian certification, however the Air Force went for the Life Enhancement Test at NAL.

The test included flying a MiG 21 Bison that had completed its 2400 hours of flight. The test revealed no fatigue cracks in the aircraft.

So the aircraft was flown further, and cracks first started appearing at total 3400 hours of flight, which meant the life of the Bison aircraft could be extended by 1000 hours maximum.

Analysts however express fears that a one-off test is not sufficient to come to conclusions. They argue that if one airframe can take 3400 hours of flight, this won't imply that all MiG 21's can take that amount of workload.

MiG 21's have a very poor record in the Indian Air Force and security and pilot safety while flying them is a huge concern.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by srai »

Looks like the LCA's design goal for airframe fatigue life was 6,000 flight hours. But whether this was achieved or not remains a question.

Indian Air Force - News & Discussion Part V Post by 21Ankush
I had the good fortune of talking to one of the ADA persons who was involved with the LCA program from around 1991 at a meeting on Hybrid materials. He's a PhD from IIT Delhi, and was one of the top guys in the development of the AutoLay composite application by ADA. He was telling me that they started to test the composite materials beginning from 1986, to start getting material data and the allowables that have been used on the Tejas have been conservative. the reason he offered (which I'd already guessed) was that they wanted to ensure that under no circumstance should a catastrophic failure occur due to their over-estimating the material allowables data.

other things he mentioned was that co-curing and co-bonding of the LCA wing has reduced a lot of fasteners, and most crucially, takes care of fatigue issues due to holes drilled after panels are built and then fastened to the underlying structures. and, when I asked how many hours service life is estimated, he said it was done keeping aircraft of 3rd generation, like the Mirage-2000 in mind, and was kept at around 6000 hours.

and most importantly, he said that the initial flight loads were close to the predicted loads, and that weight reduction is an ongoing process as they change parts that are currently metallic and try to replace them with composites or lighter parts.

also, NAL is now indigenously manufacturing its own carbon-fiber composites, whereas they were being imported at very high cost from the US earlier.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

I think Su-30MKI too has a service life of 6000 hrs. LCA estimate could be conservative. Normally, it is taken that composites increases service life. The fighter which has xx,000 figure is F-15 estimated to have a service life of ~15,000 hrs which was originally designed for 4000 hrs. Western 4th gen a/c have service life of around 8000 hrs compared to Russian equivalent of 4000-6000 hrs. So if Tejas can reach more 6000 hrs it will be well and good.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by karan_mc »

DRDO develops Recovery Parachute System For Lca-Tejas


i think its a old news , sorry if it has been posted earlier , but never read about it earlier. so spin test might start now
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kartik »

srai wrote:Looks like the LCA's design goal for airframe fatigue life was 6,000 flight hours. But whether this was achieved or not remains a question.

Indian Air Force - News & Discussion Part V Post by 21Ankush
I had the good fortune of talking to one of the ADA persons who was involved with the LCA program from around 1991 at a meeting on Hybrid materials. He's a PhD from IIT Delhi, and was one of the top guys in the development of the AutoLay composite application by ADA. He was telling me that they started to test the composite materials beginning from 1986, to start getting material data and the allowables that have been used on the Tejas have been conservative. the reason he offered (which I'd already guessed) was that they wanted to ensure that under no circumstance should a catastrophic failure occur due to their over-estimating the material allowables data.

other things he mentioned was that co-curing and co-bonding of the LCA wing has reduced a lot of fasteners, and most crucially, takes care of fatigue issues due to holes drilled after panels are built and then fastened to the underlying structures. and, when I asked how many hours service life is estimated, he said it was done keeping aircraft of 3rd generation, like the Mirage-2000 in mind, and was kept at around 6000 hours.

and most importantly, he said that the initial flight loads were close to the predicted loads, and that weight reduction is an ongoing process as they change parts that are currently metallic and try to replace them with composites or lighter parts.

also, NAL is now indigenously manufacturing its own carbon-fiber composites, whereas they were being imported at very high cost from the US earlier.
Srai, that was my post on Keypubs. Unfortunately, it is not clear as to what the exact fatigue life of the LCA, since I got a conflicting value from another person recently.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Question 1.
Of all the pure deltas in modern planes Rafale, Gripen, J-10 the canard is just in front of the wing and above it. They can thus force the air onto the wing at high AoA. Besides the tips of the canards would create vortices which would delay edge separation over the wings.The Eurofighter has the canard further forward. Hence it uses fuselage vortex generators placed just below the cockpit and higher and just before the wing for the same reason.

None of these structures are available on the LCA. Ofcourse, there is the bleed channel though. My question is does, the reverse cranked arrow formation has a role in this?

Question no. 2.
Also barring the Gripen, the other fighters (including the F-2 and F-16) use their body to force air into the inlet at high AoA. The F-18 uses it's LERX. The Gripen and other prominent fighters (barring the Mirage 2000 have the upper part of the inlet longer than the lower part. This might be because of the area ruling. But it does effect air intake at high AoA. In the LCA, none of these have been employed. Is there any method which is employed on the LCA to provide more air into the inlets at higher AoA?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Cybaru »

A very important data point!!
Karan M wrote: Vice Admiral Raman Puri asks hard questions about India-US defence ties

while the LCA cost us only $ 26 million.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Rahul M »

indranilroy wrote: Question no. 2.
Also barring the Gripen, the other fighters (including the F-2 and F-16) use their body to force air into the inlet at high AoA. The F-18 uses it's LERX. The Gripen and other prominent fighters (barring the Mirage 2000 have the upper part of the inlet longer than the lower part. This might be because of the area ruling. But it does effect air intake at high AoA. In the LCA, none of these have been employed. Is there any method which is employed on the LCA to provide more air into the inlets at higher AoA?
the auxillary intakes on the side.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

One can see this at 0:55 in this lsp-4 maiden flight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gznXI47D6XU
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

^^^ Rahulda and Saikji. It is a misconception that the auxiliary air intakes are for increased air intake during high AoA. It is actually for re-energizing the separated flow with the inflow.

I mean think of it, Why will air like to enter through a door at the side when there is a huge opening a foot or 2 in the front? There is velocity component of the aircraft perpendicular to the opening on the sides, so that air can be rammed in.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

indranilroy wrote:Question 1.
Of all the pure deltas in modern planes Rafale, Gripen, J-10 the canard is just in front of the wing and above it. They can thus force the air onto the wing at high AoA. Besides the tips of the canards would create vortices which would delay edge separation over the wings.The Eurofighter has the canard further forward. Hence it uses fuselage vortex generators placed just below the cockpit and higher and just before the wing for the same reason.

None of these structures are available on the LCA. Ofcourse, there is the bleed channel though. My question is does, the reverse cranked arrow formation has a role in this?

Question no. 2.
Also barring the Gripen, the other fighters (including the F-2 and F-16) use their body to force air into the inlet at high AoA. The F-18 uses it's LERX. The Gripen and other prominent fighters (barring the Mirage 2000 have the upper part of the inlet longer than the lower part. This might be because of the area ruling. But it does effect air intake at high AoA. In the LCA, none of these have been employed. Is there any method which is employed on the LCA to provide more air into the inlets at higher AoA?
I trawled the net for answers and yes the cranked double delta design apparently does exactly the job of a canard. And having the intakes below the wing and behind the leading edge ensures that the engines are not starved of air at high AoA.

In fact the huge argument about Prodyut Das revolves around this. The LCA is a great and innovative design and this great and innovative design needs working FBW. Das's complaint was that the design was too innovative and got held up by FBW. No point going back on all that now. The Mirage 2000 solved the high AoA problem by using strakes. on the sides of the intake and a taller tailfin.
http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/da ... ge_2000.pl
A noticeably taller tailfin allows the pilot to retain control at higher angles of attack, assisted by small strakes mounted along each air intake.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Shiv sir, I am aware of the strakes on the Mirages for vortex generators. You are right about them acting as canard so much so that they are sometimes called so.

If you could recollect, could you please point me to some article where you read about how the cranked double delta design apparently does exactly the job of a canard. Does the unusually high AoA of the wing at the root also have a role to play in this? Thank you in advance.

Also, the overhang of the wing over the engine intakes is too small to have any effect on ramming down of air into the air intakes at high AoA. I mean compare it to the Rafale's body moulding before the intakes. Or am I wrong?

But I must say that the wash out of the wing on the LCA is one of the largest that I have seen. It must be a very controllable aircraft.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by neerajb »

indranilroy wrote:It is a misconception that the auxiliary air intakes are for increased air intake during high AoA. It is actually for re-energizing the separated flow with the inflow.
All the sources that I have come across so far suggests that auxiliary air intakes are there to provide extra air required at the time of take off or low speeds. I was reading the "Famous Russian Aircrafts MiG-21" and the mention of anti surge bleed doors caught my eye. MiG-21 uses a set of such devices for smooth operation of its engine. Spring loaded door at the front fuselage, beneath the cockpit (I am assuming either just in front or midway of the compressor) and another actuated door just in front of the turbine (forgot the name). The actuated door is to bleed of excess pressure built up in the combustion chamber if the pilot slams the throttles forward and there is likelihood of a surge. The spring loaded anti surge door's function is to bring in fresh air to later compressor stages at the time of take-off, low speeds when the compressor efficiency is low, again to avoid a surge.

Re-energizing aka introducing turbulence in the engine would be the last thing any engine designer would like it's engine to face.

Cheers....
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Lalmohan »

neeraj - re-energising to prevent separation?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by neerajb »

Saar a jet engine has elaborate features like IGVs, stators etc so that the compressor receives distortion free air stream at the correct angle of attack (wrt to the compressor blades). Now if we use auxiliary intake doors as strakes to re-energize the flow inside the jet engine then the whole purpose of all above is lost. In fact it is akin to force compressor stall by causing turbulence in the air stream inside the duct.

Cheers....
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Lalmohan »

well... but are there not circumstances/angles where it causes flow re-attachment to maintain laminar flow? (i may be wrong)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

Kartik wrote:Unfortunately, it is not clear as to what the exact fatigue life of the LCA, since I got a conflicting value from another person recently.
Hi kartik, Is there any reason shared for the lower figure? Thx.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

indranilroy wrote: If you could recollect, could you please point me to some article where you read about how the cranked double delta design apparently does exactly the job of a canard. Does the unusually high AoA of the wing at the root also have a role to play in this? Thank you in advance.
:shock: I spent a couple of hours searching for the exact ref. I recall reading several refs a couple of weeks ago at the height of that Prodyut Das discussion. As you probably know there is precious little about the LCA. The only actual person who explicitly says that Tejas' cranked double delta does the same job is a guy called Abhimanyu in a keypubs discussion. All the other refs only speak of measures that can be taken in delta's to avoid vortex separation at High AoA (lots of refs from my uncle Google) and all are general refs to what cranked deltas do. It is quite possible that my own reading fed my own impressions and biases and made me state categorically that the cranked double delta acts like a canard. I am unable to find a cite.

Having said that I still believe that is what it does. But the story may not be that simple. FBW and those leading edge flaps seem to have some role. I'll be damned if I know.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by negi »

Neerajb Iirc we already went through the engine surge here before; the bleed valves meant to relieve pressure and prevent compressor surge are located aft of the LPC , the auxiliary air intake door in case of Tejas is well in front of the engine IGVs so there is no way it can serve as a channel to bleed this excess air. During high AoA maneuvers the ram effect that keeps the flow energized within the inlet is reduced, imho it is during those situations an auxillary air intake helps to keep the flow energized by increasing the effective intake area.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by neerajb »

Negi I have nowhere mentioned that the auxiliary doors are meant for relieveing the pressure, That was the case with MiG-21 which has been addressed by having FADEC. Auxiliary doors are meant to suck air and provide additional air flow to the compressor especially the later stages which will stall first in case of inadequate air flow. It seems in Tejas the doors are located well before the compressor fan. Rest, apart from "energized", you are saying what I have already stated.

Cheers....
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

This auxiliary intake discussion took place on page 18 of this thread
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 77#p904377
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by negi »

neerajb wrote:Saar a jet engine has elaborate features like IGVs, stators etc so that the compressor receives distortion free air stream at the correct angle of attack (wrt to the compressor blades). Now if we use auxiliary intake doors as strakes to re-energize the flow inside the jet engine then the whole purpose of all above is lost. In fact it is akin to force compressor stall by causing turbulence in the air stream inside the duct.
Cheers....
Page 18

Rahul_M's post

http://www.jafmonline.net/modules/htmla ... 415-bp.pdf
Quote:
(1983) investigated the swirl in an S-duct of typical aircraft intake proportions at different angle incidences. The static pressure recovery (CSP) reduced with the increase in angle of attack (CSP = 0.89 at 0°angle of attack and CSP = 0.37 at 30° angle of attack) and it could be improved by incorporating several mechanical devices at the inlet, such as, spoiler, fences etc. They studied two methods in order to reduce the magnitude of swirl by means of a spoiler and to reenergize the separated flow with the inflow of free stream air through auxiliary inlets.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by neerajb »

Thanks Negi.

Cheers....
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by darshhan »

Guys , can someone tell the exact range of LCA mk1 with and without using external fuel tanks?

lot of websites have different figures as far as range are concerned.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by putnanja »

Work Officially Set To Begin On LCA Tejas MK-II
...
Along with a team from GE, ADA will shortly begin multidisciplinary design optimisation (MDO) of the Tejas airframe for its new engine, and therefore, operational envelope, computational fluid dynamic (CFD) studies of all new aerospace components, failure mode, effect & analysis of aeroengine components, fresh numerical master geometry & inboard drawings, a digital mockup of the entire MK-II, and of course, a wind tunnel model. Immediately, however, the team will embark on the all-important tasks of F414 engine-airframe bay interference studies and clearance, powerplant and fuel systems design and optimisation, integration and then ground tests.
...
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Rahul M »

darshhan wrote:Guys , can someone tell the exact range of LCA mk1 with and without using external fuel tanks?

lot of websites have different figures as far as range are concerned.
http://mach-five.blogspot.com/search?q=lca
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by darshhan »

^^ Thanks a lot Rahul m ji.So the combat radius of LCA mk1 is approximately 1000 kms which is actually pretty decent.According to me it is much more than just a point defence fighter as some posters had implied on this forum. In fact as far as range is concerned it compares well with Eurofighter and Gripen.And if its refuelling capacity is exploited than it can easily perform the role of a deep penetration strike aircraft.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by P Chitkara »

How many of you feel that the air intakes of LCA and Rafale have some degree of similarity :?: They have sculpted the intakes beautifully though :wink:

Dassault’s inputs show up here too besides the delta.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shukla »

Naik said that the Mach-I version of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft would be ready around the middle of next year and it would take another three years to complete the Mach-II version. The initial LCA squadrons would be located at Surut in south India.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_in ... ge_1461299
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

shukla wrote:
Naik said that the Mach-I version of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft would be ready around the middle of next year and it would take another three years to complete the Mach-II version. The initial LCA squadrons would be located at Surut in south India.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_in ... ge_1461299
Mach 1? Mach 2? DDMitis
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SriSri »

Cross posting ..

North Eastern Airfields Being Upgraded; HAL Tejas Mark I to be Inducted Mid-2011
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4699
"LCA has taken a long way to come to the stage where it is now. By middle of the next year, LCA Mark-I will be inducted into the operationalized squadrons. At the same time, the process of selection of engine for LCA Mark-II is nearing completion."
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Surya »

where is Surut?? :roll:
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Neela »

shiv wrote: http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_in ... ge_1461299
Mach 1? Mach 2? DDMitis
Mark 1 / Mark II became Mach 1 and Mach 2
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

shiv wrote:
indranilroy wrote: If you could recollect, could you please point me to some article where you read about how the cranked double delta design apparently does exactly the job of a canard. Does the unusually high AoA of the wing at the root also have a role to play in this? Thank you in advance.
:shock: I spent a couple of hours searching for the exact ref. I recall reading several refs a couple of weeks ago at the height of that Prodyut Das discussion. As you probably know there is precious little about the LCA. The only actual person who explicitly says that Tejas' cranked double delta does the same job is a guy called Abhimanyu in a keypubs discussion. All the other refs only speak of measures that can be taken in delta's to avoid vortex separation at High AoA (lots of refs from my uncle Google) and all are general refs to what cranked deltas do. It is quite possible that my own reading fed my own impressions and biases and made me state categorically that the cranked double delta acts like a canard. I am unable to find a cite.

Having said that I still believe that is what it does. But the story may not be that simple. FBW and those leading edge flaps seem to have some role. I'll be damned if I know.
Shiv ji, my humble 2 cents...

Canards are control surface like tail planes and its been used for a very long time and it has its own use. There are designs of double delta with canard. Eurofighter's early incarnation in one such design. So one cannot say as such double delta or cranked double delta wings does the job of canard. It doesn't. What i think is, given the specification and design parameters of LCA, for Tejas chosen wing form of cranked double delta, addition of canard becomes irrelevant or doesn't add any substantial benefits. Otherwise why NAVAL Tejas sports LEVCON which does some of the functions of Canard? So i think, double delta wing form does not mean, canard replacement.

There are studies conducted at NAL(Nal website) about adding small T-tail to further refine the Tejas flight profile. It is obvious that aircraft design is a compromise.
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