Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 17 Feb 2011 22:24

Let us have a spectrum audit so that no one dares to sell something that is notified in the audit as in use by other agencies

VinayB · Post by **VinayB** » 18 Feb 2011 00:17

Acharya wrote:
geeth wrote:
Monday's tea party hosted by Janata Party member of Parliament Dr Subramanian Swamy, which brought Jayalalitha and Congress president Sonia Gandhi face to face after almost four years, has sent the political temperature soaring once again.

http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/mar/31jaya2.htm
We should ask Swamy to comment on that era ... he later seems to have broken up with Jayalalitha again, suggesting that she succumbed to EJ pressures in the Shankaracharya arrest episode.
I asked this question one on one to Swamy in 2006 first and again in 2010.
He said the amount of information against SG is more now and there is a real threat to the nation. In 1999 it was circus in the Parliament and all combination was being tried.

Swamy is a big hit on twitter. When his fans ask him questions, he says 'stand by spectator, and let me play my game'.

The circus in 1999 was pretty much the result of this tea party exercise. If one remembers right, JJ used some admiral issue to cause grief to BJP. Dravidian parties do not go into such issues at all. Real issue could have been her corruption cases. Swamy played a role in convincing her to pull the plug, and as was recalled in this thread Kargil followed.

If Swamy quotes pressures in the Kanchi Acharya episode, one could try asking him what those pressures were, and how can one be sure that such pressures will no longer come to play. But he would mostly say snidely 'stand aside spectator'.

The TN election result, like it or not, can not be used to prove anything. JJ is collecting support of die hard Dravidar Kazhagam type fanatics. It would be pretty similar to WB result. Devil and the deep f*cking sea. In some ways you could say lesser evil is in fact DMK/CPM

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 18 Feb 2011 00:19

VinayB wrote:
If Swamy quotes pressures in the Kanchi Acharya episode, one could try asking him what those pressures were, and how can one be sure that such pressures will no longer come to play. But he would mostly say snidely 'stand aside spectator'.

The TN election result, like it or not, can not be used to prove anything. JJ is collecting support of die hard Dravidar Kazhagam type fanatics. It would be pretty similar to WB result. Devil and the deep f*cking sea. In some ways you could say lesser evil is in fact DMK/CPM

The EJs showed their hand in 2004 and in 2008 in KA. The YSR factor was big then and this caused everybody to come together.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Feb 2011 01:10

One aspect of MMS interview, we are not noting, is its very divisive when he blames Raja (DMK) and says MHA(PC) approved it.

Meanwhile Pioneer reports:

LINK

‘Not consulted’ on S-band deal, Antony spills beans
February 18, 2011 2:06:55 AM

PNS | New Delhi

It is evident from AK Antony’s revelation on Thursday that the Isro-Antrix-Devas agreement for leasing out S-band spectrum in 2005 was all hush-hush. The Defence Minister has said he was not consulted by any wing of the Government while finalising the contract.

Generally a man of few words, Antony could not hide his displeasure over the whole issue, saying it was “unfortunate” and “a mistake”. His claim is bound to raise questions about the policy-making exercise in the UPA Government, specially in light of the assertion that S-band spectrum is meant for meeting only strategic national requirements.

Refraining from elaborating, Antony, however, said, “S-band is mainly meant for the armed forces, para-military forces and other strategic organisations. First priority has to be given to them and it is unfortunate (that it was not).”

On the sidelines of an Army function, Antony was asked whether his Ministry was consulted for the deal, given the strategic importance of S-band. He replied, “The Defence Ministry was not consulted at the time of signing the contract.”

He went on to say, “The Government is now conscious about the necessity of the armed forces and strategic forces and in future, first priority will be given to the strategic organisations.” Antony added. “The services and Defence Ministry have a major stake in the S-band.”

Asked if signing the contract was a procedural mistake, he said, “They have made a mistake. But the Government has taken a major and drastic action now and our hands are clean and the Government has nothing to hide.”

The deal between Antrix and Devas for premium space segment was to lease out 90 per cent transponders on two of Isro’s satellites - GSAT-6 and GSAT-6A. Under the agreement signed in January 2005, Devas was to lease transponder capacity from the two satellites at $300 million (approximately Rs 1,350 crore), spread over 12 years.

Some estimates said the deal was heavily undervalued and the Comptroller & Auditor General (CAG) was investigating it. The BJP-led Opposition had last week criticised the Prime Minister for the deal as he is directly in charge of the Department of Space.

And mind you it was done in Jan 2005 hardly one year before the UPA came to power.

To me it looks like some of the ISRO babus thoguht lets get our share of rotis while the tawa is garam. And all this was done sub-rosa. And they have the nerve to claim they have a legal agreement?

Look at how paltry the amount is ~Rs110/year for 12 years. Chump change. And they go around and give it to foreign entities and bring foreing officials to pressure the new Govt.

And does MOD sit in isolation while their communication bandwidth is sold without even knowing about it. Total bunker mentality.

I guess they were busy keep their hands clean to note others were stealing their vital assets!

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 18 Feb 2011 02:14

And mind you it was done in Jan 2005 hardly one year before the UPA came to power

It is one year after UPA came to power.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Feb 2011 04:06

Swapan Dasgupta in Telegraph on the rise of corruption in India.

LINK

IN FAMILIAR COMPANY
- What history says about the sources of corruption in India
Swapan Dasgupta

In a compelling essay in Newsweek, the historian, Niall Ferguson, contrasted President Barack Obama’s missed opportunities in the Middle East with Bismarck’s success in harnessing the nascent European nationalism to the advantage of the newly-formed German state in the late-19th century.

The comparison may well strike strategic affairs pundits as both facile and arbitrary: can decision-making in a complex democracy be equated with the resolute authoritarianism of the Prussian order? In his study of Bismarck, the historian, A.J.P. Taylor — someone who deftly bridged the gap between academia and journalism — had warned that “great disasters are caused by trying to learn from history and correct past mistakes”. Taylor’s alternative was alluring: “It is probably better to think about the present, not the past — or the future.”

It’s a warning that has cut no ice. In a world where knowledge is driven by the principle of ‘relevance’, the temptation to see the past through the concerns of the present and profit from that experience is irresistible. William Dalrymple, to cite an example from nearer home, is presently researching a book on the now-forgotten first Afghan War (1839-42). The underlying message behind revisiting a campaign marked by initial success and subsequent disaster is obvious: Whitehall had learnt nothing from its 19th-century engagements with Afghanistan and had committed the same mistakes in the 21st century.

Indeed, the ‘war on terror’ launched after the 9/11 attacks has generated a body of historical literature centred on the phenomenon of Empire. Written mainly by scholars deeply distrustful of George W. Bush’s foreign policy, it has been inclined to view the assault on Islamism as a cover for Empire-building and self-aggrandizement. In a war billed as being dictated by oil, the former vice-president of the United States of America, Dick Cheney, was often depicted as a latter-day personification of Robert Clive and Cecil Rhodes. Not surprisingly, the story of the East India Company’s transformation from merchants to conquerors of India has formed an important part of the narrative.

The narrative has struck a chord among radicals and dissenters in an India that has hesitantly embraced globalization. The East India Company has reappeared in populist political discourse as the symbol for corporations determined to subvert democracy and the rights of indigenous peoples for the sake of profit. This shrill denunciation of global capitalism has blended in neatly with the fringe but vocal anti-globalization movements in the campuses of the West which accounts for Arundhati Roy’s cult status.

For a country that has traditionally been disdainful of history, any attempt to imbibe past experiences is a welcome departure. To that extent, invoking the story of the East India Company is worthwhile. The danger lies in getting the wrong end of the stick. The Company holds out valuable lessons for contemporary India but the relevant lesson is not drawn from its creeping conquest of India — a feat that is near-impossible to replicate — but the story of how early capitalism subverted society and politics. In today’s India, where prosperity and improvements in standards of living appear to coexist with cynicism, scandal and corruption, another facet of the East India Company story is worth exploring.

To many early British administrators, parachuted into India to bring order and streamlined governance, corruption often seemed a peculiarly ‘native’ problem. “Every native of Hindustan,” Lord Cornwallis once exclaimed in exasperation, “I verily believe, is corrupt.” It was a view echoed by Clive in his deposition to a select committee of Parliament investigating his ‘disproportionate assets’. “From time immemorial,” he explained, “it has been the custom of that Country, for an inferior never to come into the presence of a superior without a present. It begins at the Nabob and ends at the lowest man who has an inferior.” Clive, in fact, claimed to have been “astonished at his own moderation” in resisting the blank cheque offered to him by Mir Jafar after Plassey.

Lest it is imagined that Clive and Cornwallis were guilty of creating ‘orientalist’ stereotypes to gloss over the venality of the Company’s servants, it is interesting to note the first question posed to Sir Thomas Roe by the Moghul emperor, Jehangir, in 1615 upon being asked for trade and tax concessions for the Company: “He asked me what Presents we would bring him.” When Roe offered him “excellent artifices in painting, carving, cutting, enamelling, figures in Brasse, Copper, or Stone, rich embroyderies, stuffes of Gold and Silver... [he] said it was very well: but that he desired an English horse.” And Jehangir was no tinpot chief overwhelmed by greed and a desire to survive.

The suggestion that transactions in India always have a covert built-in quid pro quo clause may seem offensive but, at the same time, in the age of 2G and the Commonwealth Games it does have a contemporary resonance. The annual payment of £27,000 to Clive for a jagir over which the Company already possessed rights was suspected to be a variant of the modern-day kickbacks that accompany defence deals and commercial contracts. What Warren Hastings disingenuously claimed was the “common Zeasut” or generous entertainment allowance “usually given to the visitor by the visited” would well have been construed today as bribes and sweeteners. Likewise, the endless retainers, some amounting to more than £10,000 annually, given by either the Nawab of Arcot or his rival the Raja of Tanjore, to departing Company servants for promoting their interests in both Westminster and Leadenhall Street seem to have much in common with post-retirement consultancies and directorships offered by companies to retired babus.

The organized encounter between a commercially-driven Britain and a less purposeful India resulted in hideous political, social and economic distortions in both places. To Britons, dazzled by the wealth and opulence of the East, the ease with which Indians, legatees of an admitted rich civilization, could be made suckers was puzzling. In the words of Charles Grant, a government official who returned from India in 1790, the people of India were “lamentably degenerate and base, retaining but a feeble sense of moral obligation, yet obstinate in their disregard of what they know to be right”. Hastings wasn’t so sanctimonious, preferring to locate the problem in the tradition of “arbitrary power”. Today’s anti-corruption crusaders have, ironically, also identified discretionary power as the root of corruption.

The ostentatious and vulgar ‘Nabob’ culture that stemmed from the interaction with India after 1757 also created widespread concern in Britain. The Company servants who returned with the huge proceeds of their ‘private trade’ may have bought prime properties, works of art and even seats in Parliament but they never attained respectability. Both Clive and Hastings were subjected to intense parliamentary scrutiny and were the targets of men such as Edmund Burke who sought a moral cleansing of society.

{Shades of Anil Amabni!}

Justice never caught up with the Company Nabobs but the consequence of the fierce assaults on their ethics and integrity left a mark on Britain. By the beginning of the 19th century, the scandals of an earlier era forced it to move towards a relatively more ordered capitalism and an ideal of empire centred on justice and fair play. Although there was always a mismatch between ideal and reality, the British ‘national character’ did internalize this abhorrence of excess. Some of this shift was reflected in India.

The post-1991 encounter with global capitalism has produced perversions that correspond broadly to the experience of the 50 years after Plassey. If history is prone to selective re-enactment, India can possibly look forward to what happened after the dust settled on the first flush of exuberance.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 18 Feb 2011 09:41

^^ So the most corrupt were Jahangir, Mir Jafar and Nabobs and being generalised as Indians. The second last invasive turk/mongol mix of species before Bruts. Bruts must have tried to bribe tilak, gandhi, motilal, jln, subhash babu and many. what happened then? how indians can be generalised as corrupt?

Honestly, to provide gift to nabobs and mughals, bruts started looting the land of corrupt to compensate 'precious' gifts given to these rulers, there was no alternate. Now we know why they looted india. they were so poor cant gift an english horse to Jahangir with their hard earned money. Jahangir was so mean emperor to ask for an english horse? In fact, brut emperors of past had never seen such wealth compared to that of mughals. And this Mughal Rajput breed emperor begged for gift (bribe)?

(It is said that thomas roe used to bend forward to the extent possible whenever he met jahangir. Now in Ajmer. Jahangir was sitting in a balcony seeing visitors. Roe approached jahangir again this time for grant of business rights in surat. He sends that application up to the Jahangir sitting in Zarokha. Jahangir, tired of receiving his applications and rejecting it, this time approved it in disgust and threw from balcony with contempt to 'Sir' Roe waiting downstair in slavish anticipation).

If edmund burke and his likes were so particular about moral cleansing of brutish society, why they did not ask the cleanest british empress to return the koh-i-noor which was stolen away as a gift (reverse) from a 9 year old king to be? So honest and non corrupt were/are these british?

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 18 Feb 2011 10:30

Govt Spikes Antrix Deal with Devas

CCS move comes a day after prime minister announced that his govt has decided to annul the deal and the delay was only procedural

The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has annulled the satellite transponder lease between state-owned Antrix Corporation and Devas Multimedia, ending weeks of speculation about the future of the controversial high-tech deal. The Cabinet Committee on Security move comes a day after Prime Minister Manmohan Singh announced that his government has decided to annul the deal and the delay was only procedural. The latest in a series of controversies to hit the UPA government, the Devas deal was particularly sensitive as it occurred in the Department of Space, which is under the prime minister’s direct supervision.
Law Minister Veerappa Moily announced in the Capital that the deal was being cancelled in view of the rising demand for spectrum for the country’s strategic requirements (since when your govt started giving considerations to country's strategice requirements, mr moily? Ke ab chori pakdi gayi to bahane dhundh liye? chor ki dadhi mein tinka).

Taking note of the fact that Government policies with regard to allocation of spectrum have undergone a change in the last few years and there has been an increased demand for allocation of spectrum for national needs, including for the needs of defence, para-military forces, railways and other public utility services as well as for societal needs, and having regard to the needs of the country’s strategic requirements, the Government will not be able to provide orbit slot in S band to Antrix for commercial activities, including for those which are the subject matter of existing contractual obligations for S band. In the light of this policy of not providing orbit slot in S Band to Antrix for commercial activities, the “Agreement for the lease of space segment capacity on ISRO/Antrix S-Band spacecraft by Devas Multimedia” entered into between Antrix Corporation and Devas Multimedia on 28th January, 2005, shall be annulled forthwith,” Moily said.

ET had reported on Thursday citing the Department of Space (DoS) note for the Cabinet Committee on Security how the government feared the deal would give Devas back-door access to the highly monetizable S band terrestrial spectrum. There were no restrictions on sub letting the spectrum either.

Devas, which has all along said it will seek legal recourse if the deal is cancelled, maintained a studied silence, saying it is yet to hear from the government.

“We are still awaiting a formal communication from the Government of India on the status of our contract. Once we get this information we will be in a position to comment,” the company said in a statement.
The Bharatiya Janata Party has demanded an investigation and why it took so long to scrap the deal despite the Space Commission recommending cancellation in July 2010. “Why wasn't the deal scrapped when the Space Commission recommended for its scrapping. There should be a complete inquiry and people (concerned) should give nation due answers,” BJP spokesperson Nirmala Seetharaman said.

Silent Zone

• DEVAS, WHICH HAS ALL along said it will seek legal recourse if the deal is cancelled, maintained a studied silence, saying it is yet to hear from the government

PRECIOUS SPECTRUM SAVED

2003: Antrix enter into discussions with US-based consulting firm Forge Advisors exploring the development of commercial applications using ISRO’s satellite capacity. A joint venture is mooted

December 24, 2004: Antrix board approves a satellite transponder capacity lease agreement with Devas, which was incorporated in India by the parties involved with Forge Advisors. Devas would get 70MHz of S-band spectrum as part of the deal on two upcoming ISRO satellites GSAT6 and GSAT6A. Antrix/ISRO/DoS gets the development of the two satellites approved by the Space Commission and the Cabinet, but the commercial arrangement with Devas is not disclosed

July 6, 2007: DoT cautions that the spectrum being planned by the DoS is not meant for commercial use, such as in the deal with Devas. No action is taken

Dec 8, 2009: DoS institutes a one-man panel to review the deal and submits recommendations. BN Siresh committee submits its report on June 6, 2010.

June 2010: Opinions sought from law ministry & DoT. Both advise against the deal. Space Commission asks DoS to direct Antrix to cancel the deal

July 12, 2010: ASG advises DoS that the decision to annul the contract should be a policy decision

Sept-Oct 2010: Reacting to reports in the media, Devas writes to the members of the Space Commission, including those in the PMO. US Chamber of Commerce writes to the PMO on the issue

February 2011: Media reports say the CAG suspects a loss of 2 lakh crore to the exchequer as a result of the deal.

ET Feb 17, 2011

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 18 Feb 2011 10:34

JPC to be Constituted Next Tue

Congress-BJP slanging match continues as Modi counters allegations on GST

Tension between the ruling side and the Opposition over a parliamentary probe into the 2G spectrum allocation appears to be coming to a close with the government leaders formally communicating to leaders of the Opposition about the plans to constitute a JPC. A motion will be moved in Parliament for the formation of the panel on February 22 morning.

During interaction with Opposition leaders, senior ministers indicated their willingness to work across the aisle. The Opposition is certain to cite the constitution as a biggest success in its fight against the scandal scarred government.

But this will not mean an end to acrimonious finger-pointing between the two sides. While the prime minister on Wednesday said BJP was obstructing parliament and policy decisions as his government was not willing to go soft against former Gujarat minister Amit Shah, Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi on Thursday hit back at the PM saying that he was coming up with “fanciful theories” to cover up his inefficiency.

“The BJP has a clear stand on reforms like GST. A year ago, when I met Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee, I told him that we cannot implement it before creating the nation-wide information technology network for GST. Mukherjee also agreed with my suggestion and immediately called his personal secretary and asked him to form a taskforce for this. However, till date, there is no progress. I challenge the PM to make the minutes of the GST empowerment committee public and let the people know what suggestions Gujarat and other states have made in last two years,” he said.

On its part, the BJP said the prime minister was responsible for lack of progress on reforms. “The prime minister should explain why important initiatives are stalled. He can’t get away by hurling baseless allegations. Is his party and alliance on board on various reform issues,” asked BJP spokesman Ravi Shankar Prasad.
It also said the prime minister cannot hope for bipartisan support for governance issues after making “baseless” charges. “We never hear from the prime minister and stalemate in Parliament is his fault.”
The principal Opposition also came down heavily on the prime minister for his remarks that the scams will affect India’s self confidence and the image of the country outside. “This sort of atmosphere is not good. It saps our own self-confidence. It also spoils the image of India,” Singh said during his interaction with TV editors on Wednesday.

ET Feb 18 '11

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 18 Feb 2011 10:39

DMK owned Kalaignar TV office raided by CBI

Chennai: The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) today raided the office of Kalaignar TV, a Chennai-based channel closely linked to the DMK, as part of its investigations into the 2G scam.

The raids were carried out early in the morning and are in connection with the money trail in the 2G scam. The CBI suspects that some amount of payoffs in the scam may have been diverted to the channel.

The investigating agency had alleged last week that a Rs. 200-crore cheque was sent from Mumbai to Chennai in 2009 which ended up with Kalaignar TV, which is owned largely by the family of M Karunanidhi, the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu. His second wife, MK Dayaluammal, owns 60 per cent stake in the channel and his daughter Kanimozhi owns another 20 per cent.

The money, the CBI alleged, was paid to former Telecom Minister A Raja by Shahid Balwa, a promoter of DB Realty and Swan Telecom, which was allegedly one of the two major beneficiaries of Raja's spectrum largesse when he was minister. Swan Telecom was granted its license for a little over Rs. 1500 crores and it later sold stake to Etisalat, a Dubai-based firm, for nearly Rs. 4,200 crores.

CBI sources allege that the DB Group first transferred the money to Morani Brothers' owned event management company Cineyug Films, which then forwarded it to Kalaignar.

Kalaignar TV clarified that Cineyug invested the money for buying Kalaingar's shares, which later fell through due to differences in valuation, following which Kalaingar TV treated that money as a loan and repaid it with a 31 crore interest.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/2g-sp ... e-86209?cp

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 18 Feb 2011 17:52

L K Advani says sorry to Sonia for Swiss account insult - http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... lt/751755/

BJP had appointed the taskforce on unravelling the amount of black money stashed by Indians in foreign banks and ways to bring it back.

The report had alleged that Sonia Gandhi and former Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi were among Indians who held Swiss bank accounts.

This had led Sonia Gandhi to write a letter to Advani denying the allegation.

Sources said Gandhi had said neither she nor her husband held Swiss bank accounts.

In his reply to the Congress President's letter, Advani expressed regret that Rajiv and Sonia's name were mentioned in the report.

And Sonia's denials were meekly accepted? Advani could have asked for an investigation instead of apologizing.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Feb 2011 17:56

Pranav wrote:L K Advani says sorry to Sonia for Swiss account insult - http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... lt/751755/

BJP had appointed the taskforce on unravelling the amount of black money stashed by Indians in foreign banks and ways to bring it back.

The report had alleged that Sonia Gandhi and former Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi were among Indians who held Swiss bank accounts.

This had led Sonia Gandhi to write a letter to Advani denying the allegation.

Sources said Gandhi had said neither she nor her husband held Swiss bank accounts.

In his reply to the Congress President's letter, Advani expressed regret that Rajiv and Sonia's name were mentioned in the report.
And Sonia's claims were meekly accepted? Advani could have asked for an investigation instead of apologizing.

God Knows, but to me its time Advani retires from Politics, Has DIgvijay Singh, SOnia Ghandi, Rahul Ghandi, MMS, Media, NGO's, FIlm Producers ever apologised for the Lies they have said? To me Advani's has lost touch with reality.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 18 Feb 2011 18:01

The BJP task force had actually produced a pretty good report proposing that holding wealth in foreign countries that is not declared to the GoI is illegal, that such undeclared wealth would be presumed to be illegitimate, and that the GoI would become the owner of such wealth. I have given a link earlier in this thread.

But one does not hear the BJP publicizing this report too much.

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Feb 2011 18:28

Pranav wrote:L K Advani says sorry to Sonia for Swiss account insult
And Sonia's denials were meekly accepted? Advani could have asked for an investigation instead of apologizing.

Could it be related to this:
CBI moves SC against Advani in Babri demolition case

The Central Bureau of Investigation has moved the Supreme Court challenging an Allahabad High Court order that dropped charges of criminal conspiracy against top Bharatiya Janata Party leaders including L K Advani and Murli Manohar Joshi in the Babri Masjid demolition case.

In its appeal, the agency said that the high court had not come to the right conclusion and the charges of criminal conspiracy should be restored against them.

Would expect that by the 5th year of UPA-II, every news outlet will be only filled with the words Babri, Gujarat and saffron terror to ensure scams etc are kept in backburner.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 18 Feb 2011 19:24

BJP should get rid of LKA...he is more a liability than an asset.....BJP gets its votes not because of LKA....he should be sidelined at the earliest..

munna · Post by **munna** » 18 Feb 2011 19:29

Folks when will you guys learn to treat the Radia-media with contempt it deserves? Advani has NOT apologized and merely used the word "regret" in a rebuking manner. He has infact told SG in the letter that she should have been more forthright in denying the accusations regarding Swiss Bank accounts.

Fact of the matter is Budget Session begins on Monday and our Radia-Media tried to strike with clockwork precision over the weekend!
So net net:
1) No apology issued anywhere
2) The jokers of CBI better be ready with answers for their next HM.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 18 Feb 2011 19:40

LKA saying sorry etc., is all media creation. See the letter which is even on rediff.
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/text- ... 110218.htm

It is just a courtesy letter and media has blown it on top of the world. Another low. Here we are jumping up and down based on media. If media did not jump up and down and if the BJP did not get annoyed with LKA, he would not have released such a regular letter to press.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 18 Feb 2011 21:27

Pranav wrote:L K Advani says sorry to Sonia for Swiss account insult - http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... lt/751755/

BJP had appointed the taskforce on unravelling the amount of black money stashed by Indians in foreign banks and ways to bring it back.

The report had alleged that Sonia Gandhi and former Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi were among Indians who held Swiss bank accounts.

This had led Sonia Gandhi to write a letter to Advani denying the allegation.

Sources said Gandhi had said neither she nor her husband held Swiss bank accounts.

In his reply to the Congress President's letter, Advani expressed regret that Rajiv and Sonia's name were mentioned in the report.
And Sonia's denials were meekly accepted? Advani could have asked for an investigation instead of apologizing.

If so why does she not sue the French Magazine, that posted a photograph of Rajiv gandhi saying that he holds a numbered swiss bank account with some billions in it. Or is that letter just for the consumption of Indian citizens??

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 18 Feb 2011 22:14

rajsunder wrote:
Pranav wrote:L K Advani says sorry to Sonia for Swiss account insult - http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... lt/751755/

And Sonia's denials were meekly accepted? Advani could have asked for an investigation instead of apologizing.
If so why does she not sue the French Magazine, that posted a photograph of Rajiv gandhi saying that he holds a numbered swiss bank account with some billions in it. Or is that letter just for the consumption of Indian citizens??

Any links?

Edited later: Got it !! It was Swiss Magazine 'Schweizer Illustrierte' http://www.janataparty.org/annexures/ann10p43.html

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 19 Feb 2011 04:52

This is not some hot air and 2G leaving India is being discussed seriously in Delhi corridors though chances are not less. However, I would not take this as CT or even lightly. It coming especially from NVS makes it more special.

The Tunisia Test - The Congress has a future if the Gandhis go, says N.V.Subramanian.

18 February 2011: The Congress leadership of Sonia/ Rahul Gandhi faces a stark situation ahead. Unless it detaches from the Congress and permits it autonomously to rebuild, the party on present showing will sink. The Gandhis will go even if they persist with their present dynastic/ dictatorial control of the Congress. But if they let go of the party and allow it its own nationally-elected leadership, then the Congress may come into its own typically like Western formations such as the Democratic, Republican, Labour or Conservative parties. The reasoning for this runs thus.

Manmohan Singh's interaction with news-TV editors last week has advertised the worst of his prime-ministership. He has as good as confessed that he is not in control. He has passed the buck on 2G entirely to the telecom and finance ministries, the latter of which is smarting at this. Worse, he has condoned the 2G scam, comparing the windfall to fly-by-night telecom operators to the kerosene and other subsidies given to the poor. Clearly, Manmohan Singh is prime minister of the rich and sleazy in a very poor and plundered country like India. And with him in the job, the Congress party stands zilch chance of re-election in 2014.

But Manmohan Singh is not entirely to blame for this. He was selected for the job by Sonia Gandhi when her own prime-ministerial bid ran into trouble. Manmohan Singh was rewarded for his loyalty to the Gandhis. He was expected to vacate whenever Rahul Gandhi was ready. With no political base of his own, the real power was to vest with Sonia Gandhi, as it has. Manmohan Singh more or less has functioned as a super bureaucrat occupying the PMO.

A small matter was overlooked by the Gandhis when Manmohan Singh was made PM. For all his outward humility -- and this has been written before -- he is enormously personally ambitious. Manmohan Singh was ambitious to be prime minister and it will be hard to dislodge him should the need arise. Of course in dirty tricks, the Congress is nonpareil. If Manmohan Singh has to go, ways will be devised to remove him. At a pinch, his health condition can always be played up.

Welcome to the cynical world of politics.

But the trouble for the Congress leadership is that changing Manmohan Singh now brings no gains. Those eagerly awaiting to succeed him, and working their networks accordingly, including Pranab Mukherjee, P.Chidambaram and Digvijay Singh, cannot bring the Congress out of its present morass, although all of them individually are more capable than Manmohan Singh. The trouble lies with the Congress leadership itself, and it cannot be resolved unless it makes distance from the party.

The Congress party in the simplest terms was a legacy from the freedom struggle which M.K.Gandhi wanted wound up upon the gaining of Independence. Jawaharlal Nehru adroitly sidestepped Gandhi's wishes and used the Congress legacy and organization and Gandhi's clout with the masses to build himself as prime minister. But Nehru was not Rahul Gandhi. (Pardon the crude comparison.) He had prodigious intellect, he had vision, and he had the chops. He mishandled some very critical issues like Jammu and Kashmir and the Chinese aggression. But for all that, he was a great prime minister.

Now comes the important point. Nehru's great prime-ministership, among other factors, kept the Congress pre-eminent. Both the man and the party gained from one another. In Indira Gandhi's tenure, this relationship got clouded with internal party revolts against her, encouraged by the fact that she did not directly succeed her father. But by and large, the Nehru principle held, although in a qualitatively different manner. Indira Gandhi was a doughty prime minister who made India a regional power without the economic muscle that now makes the country's "peaceful rise" such a given. Like under Nehru, both Indira Gandhi and the Congress party grew one another, although her authoritarian colouration produced a hiatus in her rule.

The Congress party truly went downhill under Rajiv Gandhi despite the magnificent mandate he won in the 1984 elections. It must be noted that the mandate was not on account of him but because of the sympathy wave generated from Indira Gandhi's assassination. Indira Gandhi could not cash in in the same way on her father's legacy.

Since Rajiv Gandhi's failure followed by his assassination, the Gandhis have tried to preserve their Congress-party inheritance through others, the first being P.V.Narasimha Rao, and the second Manmohan Singh. Narasimha Rao was much too much his own man and history will mark him kindly. But he also wilfully destroyed the Congress in North India from which it has not recovered. Manmohan Singh's prime-ministership is too current -- and currently disastrous -- to need further amplification.

In that sense, the Gandhis' ploy of ruling by proxy has failed, because the power in hand is slowly but surely slipping away. The decline could be arrested with direct Gandhi rule, as it was with Nehru and Indira Gandhi before. But the only conceivable candidate for direct Gandhi rule, Rahul, is not ready, and may never be, if Congress insiders are to be believed. The unknown entity is Priyanka Vadra, nee Gandhi, who appears to have the chops. But there are too many imponderables in the way of her coming to the political fore displacing her brother. This is a sort of family coup that may not happen.

So the situation is this. The Gandhis' proxy rule threatens the Congress's future like never before. On the other hand, the present Congress leadership of the Gandhis is less than competent to lead the country. What to do then? In both situations described in the preceding sentences, the Gandhis' legacy looks like being terminated sooner or later.

Wouldn't it be better, therefore, for the Gandhis to pull out of the Congress altogether but not before helping to stand it on its own? You might say altruism and politics don't mix. But this is the best exit for the Gandhis. A destroyed Congress will not be able to protect their interests. A successful party may leave them some hopes for the future, however tiny, and however ephemeral. But for the Congress to succeed, it must be free of the Gandhis, fully and finally.

You could call it the Tunisia Test.

Similar stuff in indirect versions are coming from Tweets. There is a possibility that MMS may be afterall booted out in the next three months. The replacement is tricky. The rumor is that SG want to put a retirement clause with 64 years as retirement age. That includes herself, MMS, Pranab Da and Chidu too. I don't know who else can become PM otherthan RG if such a rule is applied. If RG is ruled out then who? Is PG the darkhorse. She has the charisma and talking skills better than the duffer.

The CBI investigation into 2G scam is not like the investigation on other things initiated by the government. The 2G scam investigation is going under the supervision of SC. Hence they ended up arresting Raja and others. The grapevine is full of news with impending arrests of Mu Ka and her daughter.

Could anyone older than 35 years on this forum who followed politics imagine a day when Mu Ka TV gets raided and DMK+INC still in coalition. Keep imagining the future when Kanimozi is in jail while DMK is still in talks with INC. What if CBI arrests Mu Ka.

At least the assumption (big one?) is that CBI is not in the clutches of INC in just the 2G case. The divorce between INC and DMK seems imminent even if DMK wants to salvage it pride in case of election loss. For TN it could be DMK+PMK Vs DMDK+INC Vs ADMK in case of splitsville.

If CBI is really independent then DMK's arrests could trigger spilling the beans that could engulf the top ones from INC clan. Here is where all the models and options of future governance are being discussed in the chatter.

The 2G scam and the TN election are becoming game changers though I am still sceptical.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 19 Feb 2011 06:14

^^^

Since Central government can survive without DMK, CBI actions are probably predicated to improve INC bargaining with DMK ahead of TN elections.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Feb 2011 08:07

Yoga guru Ramdev to launch party in June - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 523588.cms

NEW DELHI: Yoga guru Baba Ramdev has broken his silence about his political ambitions.

He plans to launch his own political platform in June, and the outfit will "100%" fight the next parliamentary polls in 2014. ...

Speculation is also rife about a common cause between him and BJP. However, he maintained that he "is in touch with people from all political parties. BJP has a lot of people, who have very good ideas. But they have to convert their thoughts into action for the good of the country."

As far as I know Ramdev Baba has maintained silence on the EVM issue ... don't know how he plans to handle it.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Feb 2011 08:10

India's 'biggest tax evader' Hasan Ali appears before IT - http://www.sify.com/news/india-s-bigges ... ihjcd.html

According to the Enforcement Directorate(ED), as of December 8, 2006, Khan had USD 8.04 billion in the UBS account.

The ED figure was sourced from a 2006 letter by a UBS wealth management executive which had said "Khan can withdraw USD 6 billion and was free to invest this amount as and when he chooses to do so and that the balance amount of USD 2.04 billion would remain bound with UBS until January 15, 2007, after which Khan was free to invest the same as and when he chooses to do so." ...

The UBS bank had, however, on February 16 issued a statement denying any business relationship with Khan.

The Enforcement Directorate (ED) and Income Tax department are investigating an alleged transaction of $8 billion in the name of Rheema Khan, wife of Hasan Ali Khan, from the UBS Bank in Switzerland. - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 472495.cms

VinayB · Post by **VinayB** » 19 Feb 2011 08:18

Muppalla wrote:LKA saying sorry etc., is all media creation. See the letter which is even on rediff.
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/text- ... 110218.htm

It is just a courtesy letter and media has blown it on top of the world. Another low. Here we are jumping up and down based on media. If media did not jump up and down and if the BJP did not get annoyed with LKA, he would not have released such a regular letter to press.

Initial reports all said 'LKA apologized'. And also that LKA said the task force report wont have included name if there had been a denial earlier. Both are horse manure. The actual letter is very clear - LKA 'regrets the distress caused to you' - he does not regret the task force report. And LKA only says that if there had been an earlier denial (obviously meaning the much older swizz mag reports), the task force 'would have taken your denial into account'. He does not say the 'task force wont have included such names'. It could mean the task force would have included such names and also taken denials into account.

Side efffect of this episode - if there were people who did not know about such a report from BJP and such names being in it, now they do, thanks to the media. I dont remember the original task force reports themselves, and such names in it, being publicized so much.

Question - who first manufactured the news of 'apology'? was the letter from LKA given to media that then mis-interpreted it, or the news of apology manufactured first and then the letter from LKA posted to media?

Hindu clears the air.

http://www.hindu.com/2011/02/19/stories ... 240100.htm

The BJP released the letter hours after a section of the media reported it. It is immediately not clear how the correspondence between Ms. Gandhi and Mr. Advani had got leaked.

Another Q - why a private letter to a report released to public in a political event, instead of public reaction?

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 19 Feb 2011 08:45

VinayB wrote:
Muppalla wrote:LKA saying sorry etc., is all media creation. See the letter which is even on rediff.
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/text- ... 110218.htm

It is just a courtesy letter and media has blown it on top of the world. Another low. Here we are jumping up and down based on media. If media did not jump up and down and if the BJP did not get annoyed with LKA, he would not have released such a regular letter to press.

Seems like the top bosses have struck a deal: you don't scratch my corrupt iches and I won't scratch yours. That's the only thing that can be concluded from this chitchat.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Feb 2011 09:53

x-posts from internal security thread, for completeness:

Orders stopping cops from taking on mafia come under scanner

Two circulars dated March 8, 2004 and January 24, 2011 issued by State Food & Civil Supplies department, will haunt the Democratic Front government in the backdrop of the brutal killing of additional collector Yashwant Sonawane.

While the first one restricted the Police from carrying out drives against adulteration in petroleum products, the other one took away the State’s powers to check transportation of furnace oil.

The first circular clearly states that no police officer below the rank of a deputy superintendent can carry out searches to check irregularities in petroleum products.

Also, the authorised officer will have to take officials from Food & Civil Supplies department into confidence and take them along for the raids.

Home Minister R R Patil blamed critics for the situation. “Police were at the receiving end after the drive against dance bars and other such issues. I was accused of engaging in moral policing. Now that the oil mafia has claimed a life, the role of the police is being scrutinised.”

However Patil assured that the police will not remain impassive. “State-wide campaigns against sand, oil and milk mafia will continue unabated,” he said, adding that in the last three days, police have arrested 163 persons involved in several adulteration rackets.

The blame game over Sonawane’s murder was not restricted to the ruling coalition. The BJP too jumped into the fray. State general secretary Vinod Tawade alleged that Rs 25 crore was paid to concerned ministers by the oil mafia leading to the January 24 circular. Said Tawade, “The business of adulteration petroleum products thrives in Navi Mumbai and parts of Raigad. Only CBI can nail the perpetrators as State Police can not take on them."

Threatening to take BJP leaders to court, Minister Anil Deshmukh defended the January 24 order, saying it was based on Union Government directives. He said, “The state did not have any role in it,” he said flashing a letter by the then Petroleum Minister Murli Deora. “It was for all the states and not for Maharashtra only.”

http://www.mumbaimirror.com/article/2/2 ... anner.html

A predictable death -

Popat Shinde succumbs to burns

Vinaya Deshpande

Mumbai: Popat Shinde, prime accused in the case of murder of Nashik Additional Collector Yashwant Sonawane, succumbed to his burns in a city hospital on Monday afternoon. “He had suffered 70 per cent burn injuries. Post mortem will be done after the police panchanama,” P. P. Lahane, Dean, Sir J J Hospital, told The Hindu.

Shinde received burns when Sonawane, who was set on fire, caught hold of him at Manmad, Nashik, on January 25. The Additional Collector lost his life in his bid to foil kerosene pilferage.

The statement of Shinde, who was part of a kerosene mafia, was not recorded by the police. His two sons have already been arrested. One of them, a minor, has been sent to a reformation centre. The First Information Report mentions 11 names. Except the minor, all the accused are in police custody.

http://www.hindu.com/2011/02/01/stories ... 340800.htm

The interesting thing is that the first report of the Police mentioned that Popat Shinde was not injured. Subsequent reports started saying that he was severely burnt.

Sonawane attack: Main accused dies, family protests

But Shinde’s son Sagar said that they did not believe a dying declaration had not been made. “He was speaking with relatives and police in Nashik. He was preparing to give a statement of what happened and all the links in the racket, including the names of senior officials,” alleged Sagar.

“I don’t think he was so severely burnt that he should die. I suspect he might not have been treated at all,” he said.

Sagar said Shinde may have given a statement. “He may have revealed the names of certain politicians and bureaucrats. I am not willing to claim his body.”

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sonaw ... sts/744422

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Feb 2011 19:04

Congress MP insults Baba Ramdev in Arunachal Pradesh for raising corruption issue - http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4365667.cms

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 19 Feb 2011 21:17

'Ensure Kalmadi pays us back'

As Tenali Rama said "Puttukku Jara Jara Dabukku Mein"

James B · Post by **James B** » 20 Feb 2011 01:07

Now, Raja-link surfaces in Wimax irregularities

Not just the 2G scam, former telecom minister A Raja had also tinkered with BSNL's WiMax deal to provide fixed and mobile Internet access.

BSNL's technical committee had short listed six companies for BSNL's WiMax franchise and five of those were floated by Raja's friend Sanjay Kapoor, along with a few relatives.
The five companies are WiExpert Communications, SV Telecom Systems, Digitelco Communications, Spectrus Communications and Technotial Infoways.

Bharath.Subramanyam · Post by **Bharath.Subramanyam** » 20 Feb 2011 02:10

Link from IF:

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... ntry110842

People should not get disappointed after electios.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Feb 2011 07:23

Sonia's letter that made Advani apologise - http://www.rediff.com/news/report/sonia ... 110219.htm

Dear Shri Advaniji,

My attention has been drawn to a publication titled 'Indian Black Money Abroad in Secret Banks and Tax Havens' purporting to be a report submitted by a Task Force appointed by the Bharatiya Janata Party.

This so-called report contains reckless and baseless allegations against me and my family, including my late husband and my mother. These lies, energetically disseminated from time to time by sections of the media and interested parties have so far been treated by me with the contempt they deserve.

But I must let you know that I am surprised and disappointed to find a leader of your stature occupying important positions in the NDA and the BJP endorsing such scurrilous and malicious fabrications through their release at a function presided over by you.

Yours sincerely,

Sd. Sonia Gandhi

Note that she has not specifically denied her family members holding Swiss Bank accounts.

'Advani shouldn't have said sorry to Sonia' - http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 110219.htm

Veteran politician Subramanian Swamy on Saturday expressed surprise over Bharatiya Janata Party leader L K Advani's decision to apologise to Congress president Sonia Gandhi over the black money issue. The BJP patriarch had apologised to Gandhi for a party-appointed task force report, which had alleged that she and her late husband Rajiv had accounts in Swiss banks.

"L K Advani shouldn't have said sorry to Sonia Gandhi. I don't know why he did so," said the Janata Party chief at a crowded press conference in Rajkot, and went on to make allegations about the Nehru-Gandhi family's wealth.

"I challenge Sonia to file a defamation case against me. I know she wouldn't because she knows I'm right," added the Janata Dal president.

Talking about Gandhi's son and Congress general secretary Rahul, the outspoken leader said, "He makes a mockery of himself by all those tamashas (dramas) of his in the name of caring for the poor and serving the nation."

The fiery leader also took on Congress general secretary Digvijay Singh for the latter's frequent assaults on right-wing terror and said, "I am convinced that the solution to all the prevalent ills in the country (which have arisen) thanks to the United Progressive Alliance government lies, in the long run, in Hindutva." ...

Asked whether he considered Manmohan Singh a weak prime minister, Swamy said, "It's not a question of Manmohan Singh being weak or strong. If Manmohan Singh steps down, it won't serve any purpose simply because others are worse. The UPA government has to be toppled. And it will be thrown out in the wake of a series of scams. Be prepared for mid-term polls."

Swamy also dismissed reports about UPA agreeing to a joint parliamentary committee probe for the 2G scam, as demanded by the Opposition parties.

"What's the JPC, after all? It's a Congress majority committee. It will hardly serve any purpose. If you want to have some fun, have the JPC. Sonia and the UPA government must go. They have no right to stay in power after all these scandals," he thundered.

Expressing his displeasure over an increasing number of film stars joining politics, Swamy said they would be better off continuing in the film industry.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Feb 2011 07:45

LKA's Jinnah comments redux?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Feb 2011 07:45

ramana wrote: To me it looks like some of the ISRO babus thoguht lets get our share of rotis while the tawa is garam. And all this was done sub-rosa. And they have the nerve to claim they have a legal agreement?

BTW, Prithviraj Chavan, who was handling this from the PMO, is a Sonia loyalist.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Feb 2011 15:11

Pranav wrote:Sonia's letter that made Advani apologise - http://www.rediff.com/news/report/sonia ... 110219.htm
. . . .
But I must let you know that I am surprised and disappointed to find a leader of your stature occupying important positions in the NDA and the BJP endorsing such scurrilous and malicious fabrications through their release at a function presided over by you.

If Advani's presiding over the release function itself could be construed as endorsing the contents of the report, what about Digvijay Singh's endorsement of the release of that scurrilous book when he presided over its release function too ?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 20 Feb 2011 15:14

Higher standards are always expected from one set of people (not from everyone).

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 20 Feb 2011 19:30

As Karnataka is turning out to be competetive exposures of land scandals, this innocent Andhra Pradesh CM

was also caught in the cross fire
Andhra CM caught in land scam

BANGALORE: Andhra Pradesh Chief Minister N Kiran Kumar Reddy seems to be caught up in a shady land deal in Bangalore. He has registered against his name land of 4 acres and 26 guntas in Survey No 47 at Kodigehalli village in Krishnarajapuram hobli, which was allotted to a Schedule Caste family in 1983.
Though there is no bar on purchasing such land, there is a stipulated period of 15 years only after which it can be sold. But this piece of land was first bought by one HT Narayana Reddy in 1991, well ahead of the stipulated time.
Then, in a possible case of a benami transaction, the Andhra Pradesh Chief Minister paid an advance on Rs 13.2 lakh to one Vijayalakshmi in three instalments (Rs 4 lakh cheque no. 482530 Rs 3,60,000 cheque no. 482530 Rs 1,60,000 cheque no. 482531 Rs 4 lakh cheque no. 482530 drawn on Canara Bank, Lavelle Road, Bangalore) on September 25, 1995 towards the purchase of the land though she herself had not bought the land.
She then got the land registered in her name in November 1995, three years ahead of the stipulated sale period. Reddy then waited a full five years before he got the land registered in his name. Due to the previous transactions, the land itself is illegal in the first instance and hence, in 2007, the special deputy commissioner ordered that the land be transferred back to the government.
According to the rules, anyone buying land allotted to a Schedule Caste before the stipulated 15 years is liable for imprisonment of six months under Section 7 of Karnataka Village Offices Abolition Act, 1961.
Interestingly, Kiran Kumar Reddy registered the land in four instalments (one acre on October 5, 2000, document No. 6532/200001, 34 guntas on the same day, No. 6533/0001, one acre on October 6, 2000, No. 6740/200001, one acre on October 9, No. 6760).
The board on the land just says "Survey No. 47 48 belongs to B Anand and others" but doesn't name the "others". Though Express made repeated attempts to contact Reddy, he was not available for comment. And though his personal assistant Sridhar promised to inform the CM, the latter has not reverted.

Now I understand why Yeddi has to go. He is a menace not because he is tainted but he can take down all starting from Late Gundu Rao.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 20 Feb 2011 19:47

Suresh Kalmadi offers to resign if proven guilty of corruption worth even a single rupee. The fact of the matter is that he has been dealing exclusively in US dollars

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 534465.cms

"I can vouch that I have not gained financially even a single rupee out of these games and if proved otherwise I am prepared to step down as a Member of Parliament," Kalmadi said in a statement.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Feb 2011 20:07

Fresh money trail emerges in 2G spectrum case

This one links the ADAG, a Delhi realty group, Shahid Balwa, and an influential Maharashtra politician

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main48.asp ... 02112g.asp

Anil Ambani's Swan Song?

In a first, CBI summons ADA Group's company secretary Hari Nair for questioning on the 2G spectrum scam on Sunday. Ashish Khetan explains why this is so significant

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main48.asp ... bani2G.asp

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 20 Feb 2011 20:15

^^ Is ADAG's letter to IB part of this developing story?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Feb 2011 21:33

Regrading the Swapan Dasgupta's Telegraph article which says corruption is endemic to Indian rulers hence its par for the course, Spinster wrote in an e-mail;

Apropos
your post the whole article by Swapan Dasgupta is bogus.

If you happen to have seen Elizabeth By Shekar Kapur You can see that One of the courtiers presenting his loot of Spanish vessels as "Royalty"
We call it Peshkari, to get audience with Kings.

So to claim Clive found it disgusting royalty payments is disingenuous to say the least, but one thing is that ordinary public was not that corrupt in western countries, even that I find hard believe..

Maybe those with deeper knowledge of English society and history can comment.