Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 19 Jul 2013 17:59

Not testing during rains probably has nothing to do with the confidence level on the missile. If at all it is one more test point. Or so at least, I would like to presume.

Not testing probably has much more to do with telemetry, tracking and command. Not tester would like to compromise on the margin of safety afforded to his test data. In fact even on this the establishment would have a high margin of confidence based merely on say ISRO's confidence. After all institutional memory is important component. But developer test firing and user test firings are likely to have different parameters of measuring success. Developer would like to have the safety of data in his tests. Or so at least I believe.

Why not just shift the test to say a friendly country like Russia or a friendly but technologically backward country like Venezuela.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Jul 2013 19:19

Even in the monsoon a 100% of the days will not be rainy or cloudy. Is weather the real reason?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jul 2013 22:57

Yes. No point in compromising data collection.

dinesha, Thanks.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Jul 2013 11:39

Sivathanu Pillai on BrahMos for IAF - The Hindu

The air-launched version of Indo-Russian supersonic cruise missile BrahMos will be test-fired in the middle of next year, according to A.Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Controller of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and CEO of BrahMos Aerospace.

“We are developing a modified air-launched variant of the missile with reduced weight and contemplating to have a live firing from Sukhoi-Su 30MKI fighter jet of the Indian Air Force (IAF) in the middle of 2014,” Mr.Pillai said.

He was talking to reporters after inaugurating solar-powered ‘House of Kalam’ and ‘Mission of Life’, a gallery of former President A.P.J.Abdul Kalam at Rameswaram near here, on Friday.

He said the Sukhoi aircraft was also being modified to carry the missile. The missile’s weight would be reduced by 500 kilograms to 2.5 tonne and a new launcher would be attached to the fighter jet.

As the pilot would be flying solo in the fighter, electronic software had been developed to give complete information about the health of the missile and the target situation, he said.

This would be linked to the mission computers and “we are in the process of testing the software,” he added.

The aircraft and the missile would also go through independent tests and an integrated final test.

“We will start the tests this year-end and complete different stages of testing in a year,” he said, and added that after all the tests, the missiles would be supplied to the IAF in 2015.

Answering a question, Mr.Pillai said the DRDO had developed a submarine variant of the missile and tested it from a submerged pontoon off Visakhapatnam. “It is for the Navy to proceed on this,” he said. As of now, India was the only country in the world to have land operating supersonic missiles, he pointed out.

On the development of hypersonic cruise missile BrahMos-II, he said it would travel three times faster than sound.

Replying to a question, he said many countries had evinced interest in buying the supersonic missiles and it was up to the governments of the two countries – India and Russia – to take a decision.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Jul 2013 14:24

India develops propellants for Bofors

Sanjay Sharma Chandigarh | 20th Jul 2013

India will add indigenised firepower to the 155 mm Bofors guns on 15 August amidst the perceived threat from China in the Ladakh region. "A decade-long effort to develop bio-modular charges (propellants) within India has reached a conclusive stage. The first lot of propellants will be ready for trial by the Indian Army on 15 August," sources told this newspaper on the condition of anonymity.

The process of manufacturing new propellants appears to have been quickened as China is posing a threat on the mountainous Ladakh belt. The Bofors gun had demonstrated its utility during the Kargil conflict with Pakistan. In fact, experts said that the Bofors guns won the Kargil conflict for India. If the trial of the propellants proves to be successful, it will end the uncertainty over the acquisition of these charges. The development will save at least Rs 1,000 cr. The propellants will be available for all sorts of guns irrespective of their range. The propellants manufactured by Bofors got nearly exhausted after the Kargil conflict. However, the propellants provided by Bofors could only fire the shell to a fixed distance of 25 km. The new propellants provide the option of adjusting the distance based on the position of the target. India acquired new propellants after the Kargil conflict from Somchem in South Africa. The company had agreed to transfer the technology but got blacklisted before the transfer took place.

The propellants, under the Somchem licence, were to be made at Nalanda plant. However, for 10 years, the development of the propellants could not be carried out. The new indigenised propellants are based on the technology that Somchem provided to India. The tests include the firing of a shell through the propellant to see if it will fire automatically in the wake of stray shells hitting it. If the shell explodes, it may lead to casualties. Sources said that the propellants' development trials at Balasore in Orissa were flawless. If the Army is satisfied, Indian ordinance factories will have to manufacture the propellants on an urgent basis in a huge quantity. Unlike the earlier propellant, the new one will not leave any shell trace behind. It is also believed that the propellant will add quality to the American Howitzers India has acquired. The American guns are likely to reach India within a couple of months.

The technology was tried by the European forces in Afghanistan and they were satisfied with the propellants. Warheads are already being manufactured at Chandrapur in Maharashtra. A team of experts is assessing the testing facilities at the Chandigarh-based Terminal Ballast Research Laboratory (TBRL) before the propellant is ready for user trials. TBRL is a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) laboratory.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 21 Jul 2013 18:22

How is it indigenous if it is based on technology from Somchem?

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 21 Jul 2013 23:23

chetak wrote:India develops propellants for Bofors
... It is also believed that the propellant will add quality to the American Howitzers India has acquired. The American guns are likely to reach India within a couple of months.

IIRC the M777(the "American Howitzers" mentioned above) deal reportedly never went through because of the fund crunch. So is this DDM or are we in for a surprise in a couple of months?

Vipul wrote:How is it indigenous if it is based on technology from Somchem?

I think he means it is kind-of reverse engineered(Just like the Ordinance Factory FH77). +1 if thats the case

.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 23 Jul 2013 21:02

Vipul wrote:How is it indigenous if it is based on technology from Somchem?

Take a look at the article again. The author contradicts himself in the article itself, in second para he writes

India acquired new propellants after the Kargil conflict from Somchem in South Africa. The company had agreed to transfer the technology but got blacklisted before the transfer took place.

and in the next para he says,

However, for 10 years, the development of the propellants could not be carried out. The new indigenised propellants are based on the technology that Somchem provided to India.

So for the next ten years no development of the propellants took place, no ToT took place according to the author himself but still the bi-modular charge is based on ToT from Somchem.

Take a bow guys we have a

"defence journalist".

Coming back to sanity from dec 2006 techfocus pg. 9

Indigenous Bi-modular Charge System for 155 mm Artillery Gun

Propellant for 155 mm Bofors howitzer gun is packed in cloth bags called bagged charges. These bagged charges possess several disadvantages; Incremental bags have to be removed or subtracted, removed propellant has to be destroyed by burning, results in wastage of time and propellant, and reduced rate of fire.

A bi-modular charge system comprises two types of modules to cover the complete firing range of 155 mm Howitzer. In total, firing range has been divided into five zones (in place of nine zones for bagged charges). Single-base propellant is used in zones 1 and 2 for lower zone, while triple-base propellant is used in zones 3 to 5 for higher zone. Combustible module provides a container for propellant and protects the propellant from the adverse atmospheric conditions, and is equipped with individual de-coppering and wear-reducing agent along with igniter.

DRDO has developed BMCS for 39 caliber 155 mm guns, which can also be used for 45/52 caliber 155 mm guns. Single-base propellants for zones 1 and 2 (lower zones) realising maximum range of 13 km and triple-base propellant for zones 3, 4 and 5 (higher zones) realising maximum range of 26 km for 39 caliber gun have been developed. Dynamic trials have established that indigenous BMCS are equivalent to imported BMCS in all respects like muzzle velocity and range.

So most probably these bi-modular charges are of indigenous origin.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 24 Jul 2013 00:23

Why.must the pilot fly solo on brahmos-a test flight?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jul 2013 01:00

Aditya G wrote:Why.must the pilot fly solo on brahmos-a test flight?

Maybe the 2.5 tonnes weight has to be accomodated by getting rid of second pilot?

Also if a single seat strike Su-30 MKI can be developed, then it will have many other roles than just carrying Brahmos A.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 24 Jul 2013 03:39

ramana wrote:
Aditya G wrote:Why.must the pilot fly solo on brahmos-a test flight?

Maybe the 2.5 tonnes weight has to be accomodated by getting rid of second pilot?

Also if a single seat strike Su-30 MKI can be developed, then it will have many other roles than just carrying Brahmos A.

For that Ramana ji, wouldn't it be better to get Su-35S (even more advanced than BM) as it is readymade.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Su-35S-Flanker.html

The impressive Su-35S is the latest incarnation of the T-10 family of fighter aircraft. It would be fair to describe this aircraft as the pinnacle of current conventional fighter design, blending a superb basic aerodynamic design with advanced engine, flight control and avionic technology.

The designation Su-35 has been applied to two basic Flanker configurations since 1991. The first aircraft to carry the Su-35 label was the early 1990s digital T-10M/Su-27M Flanker E, powered by the Al-31FM engine and fitted with the Tikhomirov NIIP N011 planar array radar. Export configurations were designated Su-35. This aircraft was used as the basis of the Su-37 Flanker F advanced technology demonstrator, often labelled as the Super Flanker. The Su-37 was used as a platform to prove a modern glass cockpit, the N011M BARS PESA radar, thrust vector control engines and a quadruplex digital flgiht control system with an electrical sidestick controller. Much of the technology proven on the Su-37 migrated into the Su-30MKI/MKM Flanker H exported to Asia.

The current Su-35S, ordered in 2009 for the Russian Air Force, was the result of a series of design studies for a deep modernisation of the Su-27M design. This was actually more of a deep re-engineering of the basic design in the manner of the F-15E against the F-15C performed during the 1980s. The new Su-35BM retained the basic aerodynamic design and much of the structural design of the late model Flanker, but sees important aerodynamic enhancements and completely new engines and digital systems.

Notable changes include the removal of the dorsal speedbrake, additional internal fuel, and plumbing for AAR and external drop tanks. A quadruplex digital flight control system is used. The Item 117S engines, which use key components of the Al-41F supercruising core, are employed. The Su-35S is the first non-US fighter with substantial sustained supersonic cruise capability, which provides this aircraft with an enormous energy advantage against conventional opponents in most regimes of air combat.

The avionic suite is fully digital. The centrepiece is the Tikhomirov NIIP N035 Irbis E (Snow Leopard) 20 kiloWatt class steerable hybrid ESA radar. A new glass cockpit is employed, using large area displays. The Khibiny electronic warfare suite is employed, with new wingtip DRFM technology jamming pods.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jul 2013 03:46

I thought there was an order for 40-50 of the Su-35s for some IAF strike role.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 24 Jul 2013 08:08

ramana wrote:I thought there was an order for 40-50 of the Su-35s for some IAF strike role.

Don't believe Su-35s were ever on the cards? But that is moot because the "Super 30mki" is on the cards. It is supposed to be a major upgrade of the Su-30mki with better engine (same as Su-35, with supercruise), newer avionics, AESA radar and some stealth features from T-50/PAK FA, all of which will make our Su30s essentially 2-man Su-35s. This is supposed to involve all 230-250 of our Su-30mkis and of these, 40 were supposed to be made capable of carrying the Brahmos and Nirbhay. Subtracting the WSO also subtracts one set of flight controls and the weapons control system which it seems are being integrated into the front cockpit for the solo pilot. Plus the air-launched Brahmos doesn't need the booster motor and fuel to get it into the air since it already is in the air. This would all save weight. It would however leave the question: what will we do with the back cockpit?

What I don't understand is the need for an air-lauched 500km-capable Brahmos (or 1,000 km capable Nirbhay) to begin with.

Firstly, Land based Brahmos missiles are highly mobile and difficult to target so they are quite immune in a war even if they are very close to the front. But a sluggish, Brahmos-loaded fighter would need escorts to go anywhere as it would be a sitting duck for almost any enemy fighter or ground fire. Further, if we wanted to hit a target in Tibet say, a ground-launched Brahmos would reach much faster than one from a Sukhoi that took off from Tezpur or Bagdogra.

Secondly and more importantly, everything we may want to hit is already within range of land, ship and submarine-based Brahmos missiles:
--the whole of Pakistan
--entire PoK and western Xinjiang
--the whole of Tibet
--Large parts of Sichuan and Yunnan
--The entire oil route from the Middle East to Malacca, including the Arabian Sea, Indian Ocean and Bay of Bengal.
--The entire western Chinese seaboard from Hainan to Shanghai and Beijing.
--theoretically anywhere else in the world we can send our subs

A 1,000 km range air launched Nirbhay is even more puzzling.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 24 Jul 2013 09:43

ramana wrote:
Aditya G wrote:Why.must the pilot fly solo on brahmos-a test flight?

Maybe the 2.5 tonnes weight has to be accomodated by getting rid of second pilot?

Also if a single seat strike Su-30 MKI can be developed, then it will have many other roles than just carrying Brahmos A.

Possibly because they don't want to risk two guys when they know that they will put only one missile one mission on such an aircraft. The need for the two men was to better enable the execution of multiple functions that such an aircraft will demand. On a solo Brahmos mission sirf ek button hi to dabana hai.

Added later : here enjoy this

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/04/b ... -this.html

Prize winning answer :
Jay said...
Image 1: Front cockpit of the Indian Sukhoi 30 MKI. At the top is the Head Up Display, allowing the pilot to get essential information without having to look down. Below it are 3 Multi Function Displays (MFDs). The one on the extreme left has been configured to display the basic instruments required to fly the aircraft: attitude indicator (artificial horizon), airspeed indicator, vertical speed indicator (VSI), altimeter, horizontal speed indicator (HSI) and turn & heading indicators. The one in the middle has been configured for navigational purposes. It shows a map with the current position of the aircraft on it. The third MFD on the extreme right displays information regarding the two engines and amount of fuel remaining.
In between the 2nd and the 3rd MFDs are the backup mechanical guages showing much of the same information. Below, at centre, is the "stick" to control the aircraft. The stick also includes buttons to fire armaments carried by the aircraft.
Between the HUD and the MFDs below it, is the input interface to the mission computer. Information about the mission (waypoints, etc.) are input before the flight through this interface.

Image 2 shows the rear cockpit of the Su-30 MKI. It is where the Weapons Systems Officer (WSO) sits. He has a HUD repeater on top, and all other instruments in the front are duplicated for him. The pilot in front is responsible for flying the aircraft and the one behind is responsible for situational awareness, navigation, target designation, etc., although many roles are interchangeable.
8 April 2011 18:45

.............................................
@Victor ji, the airlaunched ones bring a 1500 km mobility in 2 hours before the missile get to start its job. And 42 of these make for a compelling argument considering we will always remain challenged on the Himalayan front w.r.t. road infrastructure.

srin · Post by **srin** » 24 Jul 2013 10:30

The max range (which is claimed to be 300 km) given for Brahmos is for hi-lo profile, which makes it vulnerable to detection by EW radars. The lo-lo range is supposed to be 120 km, which puts Lhasa, Karachi etc out of bounds for launch in Indian airspace.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 24 Jul 2013 22:36

Hi, the foremost role of Brahmos-A will be in the anti-ship role.

But I am most surprised at your assessment that a land based battery is more mobile than an airborne bomber.

Victor wrote:What I don't understand is the need for an air-lauched 500km-capable Brahmos (or 1,000 km capable Nirbhay) to begin with.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 25 Jul 2013 10:56

Max Range of air launched weapon will differ based on altitude and air speed when it was launched.

Land based SSM does have this luxury nor it can be streatagically located on short notice.

As a side note, since both India and specially Porkies have big trust deficit, any SSM launch can be interpreted as nuclear launch. At launched standoff weapons might not raise this kind of alarm.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 28 Jul 2013 11:12

Second generation Pinaka multi-rocket system successfully test fired in Pokhran

The Pinaka Mark II Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher System has undergone successful firing trials at Chandhan area in Pokhran field firing ranges. The trials which started on Friday were witnessed by officials ofDRDO and Army trial teams.

“Pinaka Mark II trials were sucessfully conducted at the Pokhran field firing range. The target was successfully destroyed in Keru area which was located 30 km from the firing point. DRDO officers and Army officers have shown satisfaction on successful trails,” DRDO spokesperson Ravi Gupta said.

“The state-of-art weapon for destroying and neutralizing enemy troop-concentration areas, communication centres air terminal complexes, gun and rocket locations and for laying mines by firing rockets with several warheads from launch vehicles has been developed by DRDO. High operational mobility, flexibility and accuracy are its major characteristics, which give the weapon an edge in modern artillery warfare for the Indian armed forces, the spokesperson said.

Meant to neutralise a large geographical area with a rapid salvo of rockets with a strike range of 40 km, Pinaka could fire a salvo of 12 rockets in 44 seconds from a launcher. Pinaka was also put into field testing for assessing its capability during the Kargil conflict.

“The ongoing developmental trials at Pokhran field firing range in western Rajasthan by Army and scientists from DRDO were for the advance stage of development of Pinaka II weapon system. The development and trials will continue and the rocket is expected to be pressed into service any time now,” Gupta said.

Pinaka I is already in service.

Defence spokesman Col S D Goswami said, “Its quick reaction time and high rate of fire gives an edge to the Army during low-intensity warlike situation. The system’s capability to incorporate several types of warheads makes it deadly for the enemy.”

Source: http://idrw.org/?p=24855

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 29 Jul 2013 00:07

What's different about Pinaaka II ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jul 2013 06:14

IIRc i had a guidance module to make it even more effective.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Jul 2013 06:50

only 500kg was reducable for air launched brahmos version?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Jul 2013 08:34

SaiK wrote:only 500kg was reducable for air launched brahmos version?

With the canister, the land-launched BrahMos weighs 3.9 T while the store weight of air-launched is 2.5 T. I don't know how much the canister would weigh.

a_bharat · Post by **a_bharat** » 29 Jul 2013 08:46

This is probably a very stupid question, but I want to know the use cases for Bofors guns and Pinaka rockets. When would one choose one over the other given that both have comparable ranges. What would be the cost difference between the two to destroy similar targets.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 29 Jul 2013 15:41

Re. cost difference - well what do you want it to be? The mission will decide the costs differential.

Re. The usual differences in deployment :

Pinaka and MLRS in general - Area weapon, faster shooting, shoot and scoot, better surprise element, wider range choices, bigger bang-zize.

Howitzer - Longer duration bombardment, essential to help the feet on the ground and force the other guy to keep his head down while your guys do th assault and basically hexier esp. if it is of the 100 gun variety.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 29 Jul 2013 17:49

ramana wrote:IIRc i had a guidance module to make it even more effective.

I think it was was only range extension (from around 40 km to 60 km).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jul 2013 21:34

You are right. All the reports of Pinaka II talk of range increase only. Is the dia same as before?

vic · Post by **vic** » 29 Jul 2013 21:54

Pinaka 2 has same dia but is a foot longer

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 30 Jul 2013 12:25

SLBM comparision

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jul 2013 12:46

one key milestone that Avinash chander spoke we are yet to cross is deployment of composite 1st stage for the A5-tranche2 and then the K4(hope from day1)

given the size and pressure of 1st stage this will surely shave a few tons weight and impart greater speed which will help the range/overall size and anti-ABM featureset.

old school russian style SLBM will never fit inside the Arihant tubes..would need the huge humpback section of delta4 or Jin class. for 10m long yet ICBM range, composite 1st stage and co-axial 3rd stage motor and ring of warheads is a must to fit.

here is a interesting pic from defence forum india. 7 thawks inside a ohio tube.
http://www.9abc.net/wp-content/uploads/ ... 4538-1.jpg

Nirbhay
Diameter 0.52 m

7 nirbhays could fit inside a arihant silo giving 7x4 = 28 nirbhays in the VL tubes and room for another 20 in torpedo room if they decide to develop it for all our subs.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2414/223 ... 2183_o.png

or could be mix of 3 K15 and 21 nirbhay(10kt tactical warhead for mil or infra counterforce targets).

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 30 Jul 2013 13:22

vic wrote:Pinaka 2 has same dia but is a foot longer

From the pics, the launch tube platform is a separate unit that is mounted on the vehicle. Making the rockets longer possibly requires no rework on the vehicle mount system - only the launch tube unit needs modification. Increasing the diameter would have possibly required work on both.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 30 Jul 2013 13:34

Mount and rear struts may have too move back a little. There is not enough space on the Vehicle towards the front. Going higher may not be an option.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4716/asdw8.jpg

nash · Post by **nash** » 30 Jul 2013 14:33

Singha wrote:
Nirbhay
Diameter 0.52 m

7 nirbhays could fit inside a arihant silo giving 7x4 = 28 nirbhays in the VL tubes and room for another 20 in torpedo room if they decide to develop it for all our subs.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2414/223 ... 2183_o.png

or could be mix of 3 K15 and 21 nirbhay(10kt tactical warhead for mil or infra counterforce targets).

My mix for Arihant will be:

I Silo:
3 k-15 with conventional warhead
II Silo
3 k-15 for anti-AC role(range of 1.9k with 250kg warhead and hypersonic speed, it is way more efficient and accurate than chinese one)
III Silo
3 k-15 with nuke
IV Silo
7-8 Brahmos or Hypersonic brahmos for anti-ship role

and 10-16 nirbhay in Torpedo Tube

It will be indian version of SSBN with SSGN and SSN capability

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Jul 2013 16:03

BrahMos cruise sparks interest

HYDERABAD, July 30. (Itar-Tass) - Fourteen countries have already expressed interest in buying different modifications of a BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, CEO and Managing Director of the Russian-Indian joint venture BrahMos Aerospace A. Sivathanu Pillai told reporters on Tuesday.

“As far as I understand Russian authorities have nothing against such exports and the Indian government has final say,” he said, declining to disclose potential customers.

A. Sivathanu Pillai took part in BrahMos Industry Consortium Meet-2013, a conference devoted to public-private partnership in India’s defence industry, of which Brahmos Aerospace is a prime example.

( via itar-tass )

The total amount of orders missiles of different versions of a supersonic cruise missile "BrahMos" naval, military and air forces of India today has reached Rs 250 billion / $ 4.2 billion /. This was today told reporters the president of the Russian-Indian venture "BrahMos Aerospace" / BrahMos Aerospace /, which is developing missiles Sivathanu Pillai.

"By 2015 is expected to total orders of 450 billion rupees / $ 7.5 billion," - he said, without becoming, however, to disclose details of all orders.

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Jul 2013 21:58

Austin wrote:BrahMos cruise sparks interest

...

( via itar-tass )
The total amount of orders missiles of different versions of a supersonic cruise missile "BrahMos" naval, military and air forces of India today has reached Rs 250 billion / $ 4.2 billion /. This was today told reporters the president of the Russian-Indian venture "BrahMos Aerospace" / BrahMos Aerospace /, which is developing missiles Sivathanu Pillai.

"By 2015 is expected to total orders of 450 billion rupees / $ 7.5 billion," - he said, without becoming, however, to disclose details of all orders.

Brahmos missile quantities ordered/planned:

~300 -> IA (in 4 regiments each with 72 missiles)
~200 -> IN (will equip most major surface combatants + submarines in future)
200 -> IAF (planned order for air-launched version)

Totals: around 700 missiles (ordered/planned so far)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Jul 2013 02:49

so more like 1400 with one set of reloads

srai · Post by **srai** » 31 Jul 2013 02:55

Original estimates disclosed by the Brahmos JV was around 1,000 missiles for the three Indian Armed services. Russian forces may be ordering a few hundred judging by the $3 billion more orders anticipated by 2015. Total production estimates with International orders is around 2,000 missiles.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 31 Jul 2013 04:27

I will believe Russian orders of Brahmos and exports to other countries when I see it.

These 2 potential sales channels of Brahmos have been bandied about for years now. If its a slow news month for Indian defense, Dr. Sivathanu Pillai will talk about Brahmos at a university & give the newspaperwallahs something to rehash

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 Jul 2013 07:13

The report said that it was being examined "which model" of Brahmos would be allowed for export.In any case,even a basic Brahmos without the added features would be a very attractive anti-ship weapon to replace older subsonic missiles like Exocet,Uran and Harpoon,both from the point of view of its range as well as speed.I am sure that there would be no veto on sales of Brahmos to countries like Vietnam or Venezuela.

arun · Post by **arun** » 31 Jul 2013 19:53

IDSA Occasional Paper No. 31 : India's Nuclear Triad. A Net Assessment.

Came across the above IDSA paper dating back to April 2013.

Paper indicates that Hydroxyl-Terminated Poly Butadiene (HTPB) is being elbowed aside by Nitrate Ester Plasticized Polyether (NEPE) as the solid propellant of choice for Ballistic Missiles and here India is losing technological ground to P.R. China (Pages 24 to 28).

Excerpt:

Most of the Chinese missiles after being upgraded to newer solid versions are better in terms of quality and technology. It’s believed that majority of them use Nitrate Ester Plasticised Polyether (NEPE) kind of propellant which integrates the advantages of double-base propellants and composite propellant, in other term collectively known as composite modified double based propellants. India on the other side currently using Hydroxyl-Terminated Poly Butadiene (HTPB) which is a composite based propellant used in all versions of Agni missiles..................

So fundamentally it is observed that NEPE propellants perform better at higher temperature and for longer period of time, also these propellant perform better in terms of mechanical properties than HTPB at transition temperature, as they become independent of temperature which is important factor for long range missiles especially ICBM. NEPE has various consistencies in its chemical composition, hence it offers wide window of opportunity to enhance efficiency of propellant.

In respect of specific impulse (it is the change in momentum per unit mass for rocket fuels, i.e. more the Isp better is initial thrust hence need of lesser fuel), due to composite modified double based fuel NEPE have better Isp than composite propellant HTPB. Better Isp also gives better initial thrust during stage separation hence longer range in lesser fuel...................

John · Post by **John** » 31 Jul 2013 22:13

Philip wrote:The report said that it was being examined "which model" of Brahmos would be allowed for export.In any case,even a basic Brahmos without the added features would be a very attractive anti-ship weapon to replace older subsonic missiles like Exocet,Uran and Harpoon,both from the point of view of its range as well as speed.I am sure that there would be no veto on sales of Brahmos to countries like Vietnam or Venezuela.

I questioned this before neither Vietnam or Venezuela has a platform that can carry Brahmos, it's size makes' extremely hard to retrofit it onto existing vessels that carries harpoon,exocet etc. There is good reason why moskit has seen no other export customers other than China and not to mention Brahmos faces competition from Yakhont which rosoboronexport can package with any Russian surface combatants. Unless we can export vessels or tie up with foreign shipyards i doubt it would see any export. Mini brahmos in other hand could be a export success.