MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Apr 2019 18:29

Not questioning Abhinandan, but from reports and videos it was after he launched R 73 and was turning back he got hit. If the other IAF aircraft had launched BVR's at the other F16's to scatter them then perhaps he could have got back, however I also accept other arguments of short time frame, fear of hiting Abhinandan Mig 21 etc might be valid reasons why they didnt lau ch missiles to spoof the other PAF F16's

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Apr 2019 18:36

Lalmohan wrote:more and more the logic towards a significant growler fleet becomes imperative
isnt one of the Su30 mission profiles/fit out a bit growlerish? (growler ka beta)

at present we do not have any prowla/growla. only SPJ are fielded not any standoff jamming or escort jammer

Elta has this escort jammer a small formation could use but nothing in growler league
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TezbnRmG1g4

allegedly a Mig21 squadron had been equipped with some swedish saab jammer but the choice of platform with its limited range, in service life and power budget, plus 1 seater clearly was pre su30 days. and the pod may be very dated now.

nam · Post by **nam** » 04 Apr 2019 18:39

Aditya_V wrote:Not questioning Abhinandan, but from reports and videos it was after he launched R 73 and was turning back he got hit. If the other IAF aircraft had launched BVR's at the other F16's to scatter them then perhaps he could have got back, however I also accept other arguments of short time frame, fear of hiting Abhinandan Mig 21 etc might be valid reasons why they didnt lau ch missiles to spoof the other PAF F16's

Depends on how far the f16 mig21 fight was happening. They cannot fire BVR if distances were like 200km

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Apr 2019 18:49

The other scrambled Mig 21 Bison were not 200Km from the F-16's

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Apr 2019 18:55

off the shelf (israeli maal) stand off jammers could be rack mounted in an An32/HS748/Saras... nothing too clever, just something to block out spectrum from afar

or something more specific built into a Su30 to go with some buddies on an eeriye hunt?

nam · Post by **nam** » 04 Apr 2019 19:01

We have the big wide band jammer from dare. Similar to sap518. Don't know it status though..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Apr 2019 19:12

Lalmohan wrote:off the shelf (israeli maal) stand off jammers could be rack mounted in an An32/HS748/Saras... nothing too clever, just something to block out spectrum from afar

or something more specific built into a Su30 to go with some buddies on an eeriye hunt?

Definitely Bizjet, bigger antennas, wider coverage, more ERP, and you can even put in a couple of operators inside to track/manage the suite. The Su-30s will be getting the DARE jammers sometime soon. This can be a quick "black" program, have the IAF, DARE, ELTA guys all sit together in a room and come up with what's possible with the Elta or Rafale or Elisra portfolio. Just 2-3 aircraft. Use the DARE focus on building up desi SPJ/Escort jammers in the meantime.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Apr 2019 19:14

Lalmohan wrote:more and more the logic towards a significant growler fleet becomes imperative
isnt one of the Su30 mission profiles/fit out a bit growlerish? (growler ka beta)

Yes, with DAREs advances I don't see why we don't invest in a program for this specific purpose. Build some dedicated jammers powered by ram air turbines and not driven by aircraft electricals for the fighter escort role where the bizjet jammers can't accompany the package.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Apr 2019 19:17

Singha wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:more and more the logic towards a significant growler fleet becomes imperative
isnt one of the Su30 mission profiles/fit out a bit growlerish? (growler ka beta)
at present we do not have any prowla/growla. only SPJ are fielded not any standoff jamming or escort jammer

We have a mix of systems.
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spot ... tiplier/2/

Elta has this escort jammer a small formation could use but nothing in growler league
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TezbnRmG1g4

That's basically A2G in particular. Very similar to Rafael SkyShield.

allegedly a Mig21 squadron had been equipped with some swedish saab jammer but the choice of platform with its limited range, in service life and power budget, plus 1 seater clearly was pre su30 days. and the pod may be very dated now.

This was way back, likely all the airframes are retired. This was a mixed MiG-21, Canberra squadron.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Apr 2019 20:21

need su30 with 3 huge external fuel tanks (to extend endurance)
2-4 AAM under belly
2 turbine driven jammer pods
2 wingtip pods
no more stores under wings to avoid interference

thats the desi growla spec

habal · Post by **habal** » 04 Apr 2019 21:42

Desi growla would be like the Su-34 with khibiny pods. The krasukha is the land based versiin of the khibiny. And believe it or not, it was a khibiny that jammed USS Donald Cooke.

btw coming back to topic, what would have happened had our rescue chopper would have indeed picked up abhi from across LoC. Pakis would have lost a few more assets hopefully in full public glare. Paki air force doth plan too much, they planned exact time of civilian air traffic, then they planned for daylight ops to take videos (something similar to turk adventure), then they possibly took care to hurl standoff bombs that would not detonate or did not detonate. The perfect reposte to their planned ops would be an attack like a hammer blow, bludgeoning everything in path. A few cries and screams will ensue but they will be pretty quiet for a long time after that.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Apr 2019 21:44

i am hoping that any rescue operation would have been in the shadow of the dance of the rambhas from above... a lone chopper going in would be highly vulnerable

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Apr 2019 21:49

habal wrote:Desi growla would be like the Su-34 with khibiny pods. The krasukha is the land based versiin of the khibiny. And believe it or not, it was a khibiny that jammed USS Donald Cooke.

Please read up on the systems in question. They are nothing alike. The Krasukha is a completely different and more powerful system than a 2 pod Khibiny. Second, the Donald Cooke story was a hoax. KRET noted:

The company, known by its acronym, KRET, published an article in February 2015 saying that the Khibiny system was not installed on the particular plane and that while it can neutralize enemy radar, the article that said it completely shut down the American destroyer “is nothing but a newspaper hoax.”

habal · Post by **habal** » 04 Apr 2019 22:24

point noted Karan, but I am still hoping it can pull of something like that though in that particular instance it may not have been the case. Khibiny was said to have been the result of some breakthrough technologies which were later passed on to the french and their submarines managed to repeat pretty much the same results as was said in thay 'hoax'. Btw the new improved Donald Cook is back in black sea instigating the Russians.

Lalmohan wrote:i am hoping that any rescue operation would have been in the shadow of the dance of the rambhas from above... a lone chopper going in would be highly vulnerable

all PAF fighters had by then scooted away from that location. SAM & manpad threat remained but it is difficult to post a manpad on site at what would be such short notice and IAF would be aware of SAM sites. Thus they took a calculated risk. If they would have pulled it off it would have been fantastic.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 04 Apr 2019 22:29

EW needs power generation capability - which is lacking on fighter aircraft in general. IIRC growler also uses wind turbines like IL-78MKI uses them on the aar pods

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 00:03

Habal, Khibiny is an advanced PESA antenna based DRFM jammer, while capable it's very heavy and not suited for aircraft with heavy loads (will cut into the envelope). The French have their own advanced EW set ups, amongst the most advanced in the world (check their radars for instance), they wont be needing Russian assistance.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 Apr 2019 02:38

i reckon on an AN32, you can rig up a spare APU and generator circuit in the hold to get as much power as your little heart may desire for jammin'

khan · Post by **khan** » 05 Apr 2019 03:06

Aditya G wrote:EW needs power generation capability - which is lacking on fighter aircraft in general. IIRC growler also uses wind turbines like IL-78MKI uses them on the aar pods

Given that Pakistan is right next door to India & has almost no depth, is there any reason electronic jamming cannot be done from the ground (maybe via mobile units) without the power limitations & cost of an airborne platform?

To me, Growler type solutions are more for China & Navy.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 03:22

Not easy to jam an antenna on the top of a moving platform from one on the ground.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 05 Apr 2019 03:27

khan wrote:
Aditya G wrote:EW needs power generation capability - which is lacking on fighter aircraft in general. IIRC growler also uses wind turbines like IL-78MKI uses them on the aar pods
Given that Pakistan is right next door to India & has almost no depth, is there any reason electronic jamming cannot be done from the ground (maybe via mobile units) without the power limitations & cost of an airborne platform?

To me, Growler type solutions are more for China & Navy.

We probably need both. The horizon might be a limiting factor for jamming ground based systems.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 03:49

Horizon, angle/directionality, response time, flexibility all favor airborne responses to airborne threats.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 03:56

The interesting thing is the number of systems India is working on, can establish us as an EW player same as our investments in radars paid off.

Right now we have:

MiG-29, D-29
Jaguar DARIN-3, D-Jag
Su-30 MKI, HBJ pod
LCA Mk2, RWJ program
LCA Mk1/Mk1A - IUEWS program (tested and validated on prototype, basically a RWJ). A podded variant may be developed as a TD/alternative to EL/L-8222 to go along with Uttam.

These programs can firmly reduce our reliance on imported SPJs etc. We already had a bunch of domestic EW pods deployed on Jaguars and MiG-27s in the pre-DRFM era, now the above are the next gen.

If no system is available off the shelf, and I can't find a single real high power Israeli or French system, amazingly enough, then we should do what we are doing elsewhere and work with a partner to develop high power hardware and take the lessons learnt from the above program and go for a Biz jet deployment to target AWACS class targets.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 05 Apr 2019 08:05

Did India Shoot Down a Pakistani Jet? U.S. Count Says No.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/04/di ... qfFVZexicU-Lara Seligman

Two senior U.S. defense officials with direct knowledge of the situation told Foreign Policy that U.S. personnel recently counted Islamabad’s F-16s and found none missing.

And "No first use" Narang adds

“As details come out, it looks worse and worse for the Indians,”

The four father to the rescue.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Apr 2019 08:12

Mesha Saar, you beat me to this wonderful gem. I was about to post this and saw your post above.

They found none missing because they have delivered one to them

And then there is this gem from the above article....

Some of the aircraft were not immediately available for inspection due to the conflict, so it took U.S. personnel several weeks to account for all of the jets, the official said.

They just confirmed that Pakistan did indeed use the F-16 and their end use agreements means squat.

When the incident occurred, India asked the U.S. government to investigate whether Pakistan’s use of the F-16 against India violated the terms of the foreign military sale agreements. However, the first defense official said the agreement did not involve any terms limiting the use of the F-16s. “It would be incredibly naive for us to believe that we could sell some type of equipment to Pakistan that they would not intend to use in a fight,” the official said.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 05 Apr 2019 08:29

This Friday is auspicious.
CouptaJi and Manu BARby(Pubs are expensive) getting named by shafted dalaal and the above article.

What a way to celebrate New Year's Eve!

khan · Post by **khan** » 05 Apr 2019 08:32

MeshaVishwas wrote:Did India Shoot Down a Pakistani Jet? U.S. Count Says No.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/04/di ... qfFVZexicU-Lara Seligman

I think we should take this seriously.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 05 Apr 2019 08:35

khan wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:Did India Shoot Down a Pakistani Jet? U.S. Count Says No.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/04/di ... qfFVZexicU-Lara Seligman
I think we should take this seriously.

I think we should ignore.
This (F)article is what men in Black (coats) call Conflict of Interest.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 08:47

Congratulations to the State Dept for activating its assets to do an equal equal and put India in its place, and also for ensuring the end of the F-16 and F-18 in the MMRCA. I do hope Lockheed Martin and Boeung communicate their joy with the SDs activities to the highest levels of the USG with pleasure and joy.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Apr 2019 08:55

Jokes aside, I am confident better sense will prevail and we do not reveal Netra's capabilities just to prove a point.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Apr 2019 08:55

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 05 Apr 2019 09:09

In other news, U.S State Department also counted the Amraams ......

Sanju · Post by **Sanju** » 05 Apr 2019 09:26

CBN asked for proof and SD delivered...

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Apr 2019 09:38

Let the US Govt come out with an official statement, that farticle is aTSP sponsored statement. Note words nothing missing no mention of the word intact. Even debris means aircraft is not missing

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 05 Apr 2019 09:41

Times like this I wish I chose a career as a lobbyist, any bets on who paid for that piece? Unkil or Lockheed Martin?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Apr 2019 09:53

It is better our diplomats get an official statement from the US State Depratment regarding the verification.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 09:55

Its definitely US SD with support from Lock Mart. If Boeing has any brains, they should activate their sources to get the truth out unless they are ok with losing 20 Billion dollars.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 05 Apr 2019 10:03

Karan M wrote:Its definitely US SD with support from Lock Mart. If Boeing has any brains, they should activate their sources to get the truth out unless they are ok with losing 20 Billion dollars.

Why do you think Boeing will go against SD when it needs SD support for not just SEF but naval fighter tender also?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Apr 2019 10:05

Yes let SD make official statement on this issue, rather than sponsoring farticles on unnamed sources. This is where I see our diplomats failing us.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 05 Apr 2019 10:06

Karan M wrote:Its definitely US SD with support from Lock Mart. If Boeing has any brains, they should activate their sources to get the truth out unless they are ok with losing 20 Billion dollars.

Boeing isn't going to do it either. Better to give the large MIC the middle finger by developing aircraft like the LCA Tejas Mk 1, Mk 1A, and 2 in very large numbers over a thousand in the next 10 years.

Keep in mind that the Pentagon arranged for an F-104 transferred from Jordan to the PAF following the 1971 war to demonstrate little loss of numbers.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Apr 2019 10:09

Guys we should use our various interests int he US to get the US SD to make an official statement, I belive Pakis in putting this article have been Tactically brilliant but strategically stupid, they will now force the SD to take a stand if we are smart.