Poignant ,yet wonderful discovery,the remains of Kristallnacht,one of the most infamous days of European history,where Jews and Jewish property in Germany were attacked on orders of the Third Reich's fascist leadership.The finding of the remains could be a wonderful historical event,where the remains could be housed in a fitting memorial.It is even possible that some families could even find and identify items belonging to them.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oc ... ar-germany
Kristallnacht remnants unearthed near BerlinKate Connolly in Berlin The Guardian, Wednesday October 22 2008
Jewish shops laid waste on Kristallnacht in 1938. Photograph: Battmann/Corbis
A huge dumping ground for the destroyed remains of Jewish property plundered during Kristallnacht has been found north of Berlin by an investigative journalist.
The site, which is the size of four football pitches, in Brandenburg, contains an extensive array of personal and ceremonial items looted during orchestrated nationwide riots against Jewish property and places of worship on the night of November 9 1938. It is believed the goods were brought by rail to the outskirts of the village and dumped on designated land.
Yaron Svoray, the Israeli journalist who made the discovery, said it was a happy coincidence that he had stumbled across the artefacts so close to the 70th anniversary of the pogrom, also known as the Night of Broken Glass.
"I wasn't fully aware of the historical significance of the find until it was pointed out to me by a historian," Svoray told the Guardian. "We were looking for something completely different when we came across all these items and trinkets."
Svoray, a private detective turned journalist who has a list of wartime-related investigations to his name, was researching a story on the nearby hunting lodge of the Nazi Luftwaffe commander, Hermann Göring, when the local forester, who had been a young boy at the time of the Kristallnacht, pointed out the rubbish dump. Under mounds of earth Svoray uncovered the first items within two hours. "The locals of this site have basically been living with this dark hidden secret for 70 years," he said.
Among the items he found were glass bottles engraved with the Star of David, Mezuzahs, painted window sills, and the armrests of chairs found in synagogues. He also found an ornamental swastika. His search continues, under the protection of bodyguards after threats to his life.
Svoray has been wary of making his find public because the site might attract far-right treasure hunters. "There's no treasure as such here, but there's still the danger of it turning into some skinhead circus eBay special," he said, urging the government to secure the site.
The British historian Martin Gilbert, author of Kristallnacht: Prelude to Destruction, which illustrates how the event paved the way for the Holocaust, marking the moment when race hate became sanctioned by the German state, said the size of the rubbish dump was not a surprise considering the scale of the destruction that took place- about 1,400 synagogues, other Jewish religious establishments as well as people's homes were completely, or partially, destroyed.
"Most of the interiors of the synagogues - seats, cupboards, pulpits etc - were taken away as loot. Most of the interiors of ransacked Jewish shops were likewise taken away as booty by neighbours and looters. Other interiors were set on fire. It will be interesting to see precisely what the items are."
Tanja Ronen-Löhnberg, an educational historian at Ghetto Fighters' House, a Holocaust research centre in Galilee, Israel, said the items' authenticity had been verified. "We don't want to falsify history, so we sent historians who confirmed these items belonged to the time."
The centre plans to organise a project for German and Israeli children to search together through the remains.
Yaron Svoray
The son of Holocaust survivors, Yaron Svoray is a detective, Nazi hunter, FBI operative and journalist best known for his undercover six-month investigation of German neo-Nazis in the 1990s. In Hitler's Shadow, the book based on that investigation, was turned into a 1995 film. In 2005, he found the hidden possessions of Jewish prisoners of a concentration camp in Poland; his hunt for Nazi-era diamonds earned him recognition and led to the film Blood from a Stone (History Channel), as did his dive in Lake Toplitz, Austria, to recover forged Nazi money. He has also carried out an investigation into snuff films
Prior to stumbling across the Kristallnacht rubbish tip, he was working on a film about Göring's hunting lodge, Karinhall, near Berlin, as well as a film on the Odessa organisation, which helped Nazi war criminals escape to South America at the end of the second world war.
PS:There is a huge Q that remains unanswered.The Israelis according to the Saudi plan,exchange occupied territory foe "peace" with the Arab/Muslim world of 20+ nations.A Palestinian state is formed adjacent to israel.How will future security be guaranteed for Israel,as there are several states/neighbours involved including Syria,Egypt,Jordan,Lebanon and the new Palestinian entity? Supposing any of thes estates have internal problems of their own say due to a dictatorial regime-and Arab regimes are notorious for them, who want to deflect internal problems like our Paki military friends have done in the past.How will an attack against Israel be prevented at that time,especially when its "buffer zone" of occupied teritory has been returned? Unless these territories are totally demilitarised and a UN monitoring force is established,given the sped with which invasions can be orchestrated-and Israel depends upon mobilisation of its reserves in times of war which takes a minimum amount of time,it could be very diifficut for it to stop a coordinated attack by one or more neighbours.
Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Remembering Kristallnacht,the beginning of the Nazi pogrom against the Jews.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 110473.ece
Shards of Kristallnacht still cut deepAdam LeBor
Seventy years on, the memories have not faded. Kitty Suschny was a terrified schoolgirl of 13 when the Nazis unleashed a night of violence against Vienna's Jews on November 9, 1938.
“I saw the brown shirts marching from our window but my mother pulled me inside. I heard them shouting 'Jews go to hell'. There was screaming, shouting, the synagogues were set on fire. Many people committed suicide,” recalled Mrs Suschny, who was evacuated to Britain but returned to Vienna where she lives with her husband, Otto.
Thousands of Jews were arrested and sent to concentration camps on Kristallnacht, the night of broken glass, a harbinger of the destruction to come.
The dazzling era of Jewish Vienna, that brought the world the psychiatrist Sigmund Freud, the writer Arthur Schnitzler and the composer Gusztav Mahler, soon evaporated in the crematoria of the Nazi concentration camps. Of the city's 185,000 Jews, one third perished in the Holocaust and the remainder emigrated.
Times Archive
Nazi attacks on Jews
Havoc in Munich
The story behing Kristallnacht
Every school to get Holocaust specialist
Pogroms erupted across the Third Reich that night but the onslaught against Vienna's Jews was especially ferocious. Annexed by Nazi Germany in March 1938, Hitler's homeland was his most devoted disciple. Vienna was a “laboratory for anti-Jewish violence”, writes the historian Mark Mazower, in Hitler's Empire.
This weekend Austria and its neighbours commemorate the 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht.
But behind the diplomatic dinners and sombre speeches lies a darker reality: of a nation much of whose post-war prosperity was built on looted Jewish assets, numerous members of whose elite were personally enriched by the Holocaust, and which has only just started to face the darkest chapter in its history.
“The financial prosperity of much of the Austrian establishment today is based on money and property stolen 70 years ago,” said Stefan Templ, co-author with the historian Tina Walzer of Unser Wien, or Our Vienna, a guide book listing more than 500 properties in the city forcibly “Aryanised” or expropriated by non-Jews .
The list includes many of the sites of Vienna's present-day tourist itinerary such as Café Mozart, the hotels Bristol and Imperial and the Ferris wheel made famous in the film The Third Man.
Eduard Steiner, the owner of the Ferris wheel, died in Auschwitz in 1944. Samuel Schallinger, who part-owned the hotels Bristol and Imperial, died in Theresienstadt in 1942.
“There was compensation paid for some places that are now tourist sites, but that doesn't mean there was justice,” Mr Templ said.
The family of Jorg Haider, the far-right populist who recently died in a car crash, owns a substantial estate in Carinthia which they bought for a fraction of its value from an Italian Jewish family.
Lothar Furth, Mr Templ's grandfather, owned a prestigious sanatorium and maternity hospital. He was forced by the Nazis to scrub the street in front of the building on his hands and knees and he and his wife committed suicide in shame.
After an eight-year legal battle, the Austrian state has agreed to return the former Furth sanatorium to his descendants.
After 1945 Austria passed several restitution laws dealing with Jewish properties. No reliable figures exist as to how many properties were either Aryanised or returned, but Jewish organisations say only a fraction were restored to their Jewish owners.
In the 1980s the majority of files dealing with Jewish properties now in private ownership were destroyed, making it almost impossible for claimants to make a verifiable claim.
Under intense pressure from the United States and Jewish organisations, the Austrian government signed the Washington Agreement on Aryanised property and welfare payments for Holocaust survivors in 2001.
By the end of last month 2,130 restitution applications had been received and 432 were substantiated. In the past seven years only 11 properties have either been returned or had compensation paid for them.
But the Washington Agreement does not cover Aryanised property that is now privately owned.
Erika Jakubovitz, executive director of the Vienna Jewish Community, told The Times: “It's very difficult, because many buildings will not be returned. We have no idea how much was held and where they are now.
“They are gone and we cannot open that issue.”
Austria may be unwilling to return much of its looted wealth, but the younger generation at least is coming to terms with the country's dark past. The government has donated €1 million to Centropa.org, a digital archive of Jewish history in central Europe, which works with schools and youth organisations and records the stories of Vienna's Jews such as Kitty Suschny.
For many survivors and their relatives, compensation is not just about money, says Erika Jakubovitz. “It's about recognition, that Austria did this to them and has stolen their property from them.”
Night of shame
— Kristallnacht occurred on November 9, 1938. The Berlin Wall came down exactly 51 years later
— Berlin, one of the world's 10 largest Jewish centres before Kristallnacht, had a population of 160,000 Jews. By the end of the Second World War, 1,400 were left
— In the aftermath of Kristallnacht, SS leader Reinhard Haydrich reported 91 Jews killed, 7,500 businesses destroyed, and 267 synagogues burned
— Between 25,000 and 30,000 were arrested and deported to concentration camps
— A dumping site the size of four football pitches was discovered last month in Brandenburg. It contains the remains of Jewish property that was looted during Kristallnacht
Adam LeBor is co-author with Roger Boyes, of Surviving Hitler: Choice, Corruption and Compromise in The Third Reich
The story behing Kristallnacht
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 110826.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 110473.ece
Shards of Kristallnacht still cut deepAdam LeBor
Seventy years on, the memories have not faded. Kitty Suschny was a terrified schoolgirl of 13 when the Nazis unleashed a night of violence against Vienna's Jews on November 9, 1938.
“I saw the brown shirts marching from our window but my mother pulled me inside. I heard them shouting 'Jews go to hell'. There was screaming, shouting, the synagogues were set on fire. Many people committed suicide,” recalled Mrs Suschny, who was evacuated to Britain but returned to Vienna where she lives with her husband, Otto.
Thousands of Jews were arrested and sent to concentration camps on Kristallnacht, the night of broken glass, a harbinger of the destruction to come.
The dazzling era of Jewish Vienna, that brought the world the psychiatrist Sigmund Freud, the writer Arthur Schnitzler and the composer Gusztav Mahler, soon evaporated in the crematoria of the Nazi concentration camps. Of the city's 185,000 Jews, one third perished in the Holocaust and the remainder emigrated.
Times Archive
Nazi attacks on Jews
Havoc in Munich
The story behing Kristallnacht
Every school to get Holocaust specialist
Pogroms erupted across the Third Reich that night but the onslaught against Vienna's Jews was especially ferocious. Annexed by Nazi Germany in March 1938, Hitler's homeland was his most devoted disciple. Vienna was a “laboratory for anti-Jewish violence”, writes the historian Mark Mazower, in Hitler's Empire.
This weekend Austria and its neighbours commemorate the 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht.
But behind the diplomatic dinners and sombre speeches lies a darker reality: of a nation much of whose post-war prosperity was built on looted Jewish assets, numerous members of whose elite were personally enriched by the Holocaust, and which has only just started to face the darkest chapter in its history.
“The financial prosperity of much of the Austrian establishment today is based on money and property stolen 70 years ago,” said Stefan Templ, co-author with the historian Tina Walzer of Unser Wien, or Our Vienna, a guide book listing more than 500 properties in the city forcibly “Aryanised” or expropriated by non-Jews .
The list includes many of the sites of Vienna's present-day tourist itinerary such as Café Mozart, the hotels Bristol and Imperial and the Ferris wheel made famous in the film The Third Man.
Eduard Steiner, the owner of the Ferris wheel, died in Auschwitz in 1944. Samuel Schallinger, who part-owned the hotels Bristol and Imperial, died in Theresienstadt in 1942.
“There was compensation paid for some places that are now tourist sites, but that doesn't mean there was justice,” Mr Templ said.
The family of Jorg Haider, the far-right populist who recently died in a car crash, owns a substantial estate in Carinthia which they bought for a fraction of its value from an Italian Jewish family.
Lothar Furth, Mr Templ's grandfather, owned a prestigious sanatorium and maternity hospital. He was forced by the Nazis to scrub the street in front of the building on his hands and knees and he and his wife committed suicide in shame.
After an eight-year legal battle, the Austrian state has agreed to return the former Furth sanatorium to his descendants.
After 1945 Austria passed several restitution laws dealing with Jewish properties. No reliable figures exist as to how many properties were either Aryanised or returned, but Jewish organisations say only a fraction were restored to their Jewish owners.
In the 1980s the majority of files dealing with Jewish properties now in private ownership were destroyed, making it almost impossible for claimants to make a verifiable claim.
Under intense pressure from the United States and Jewish organisations, the Austrian government signed the Washington Agreement on Aryanised property and welfare payments for Holocaust survivors in 2001.
By the end of last month 2,130 restitution applications had been received and 432 were substantiated. In the past seven years only 11 properties have either been returned or had compensation paid for them.
But the Washington Agreement does not cover Aryanised property that is now privately owned.
Erika Jakubovitz, executive director of the Vienna Jewish Community, told The Times: “It's very difficult, because many buildings will not be returned. We have no idea how much was held and where they are now.
“They are gone and we cannot open that issue.”
Austria may be unwilling to return much of its looted wealth, but the younger generation at least is coming to terms with the country's dark past. The government has donated €1 million to Centropa.org, a digital archive of Jewish history in central Europe, which works with schools and youth organisations and records the stories of Vienna's Jews such as Kitty Suschny.
For many survivors and their relatives, compensation is not just about money, says Erika Jakubovitz. “It's about recognition, that Austria did this to them and has stolen their property from them.”
Night of shame
— Kristallnacht occurred on November 9, 1938. The Berlin Wall came down exactly 51 years later
— Berlin, one of the world's 10 largest Jewish centres before Kristallnacht, had a population of 160,000 Jews. By the end of the Second World War, 1,400 were left
— In the aftermath of Kristallnacht, SS leader Reinhard Haydrich reported 91 Jews killed, 7,500 businesses destroyed, and 267 synagogues burned
— Between 25,000 and 30,000 were arrested and deported to concentration camps
— A dumping site the size of four football pitches was discovered last month in Brandenburg. It contains the remains of Jewish property that was looted during Kristallnacht
Adam LeBor is co-author with Roger Boyes, of Surviving Hitler: Choice, Corruption and Compromise in The Third Reich
The story behing Kristallnacht
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 110826.ece
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
If Obama is for peace in the Middle-East, then for the proverbial morass to continue there, which is the unwritten commandment, it is imperative that Benjamin Net-and-yahoo, the other Bibi, comes to power in Israel. 
Tzipi Livni, you should have formed a Govt., while you could! It is too late now.
Tzipi Livni, you should have formed a Govt., while you could! It is too late now.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Sadler,RajeshA wrote:If Obama is for peace in the Middle-East, then for the proverbial morass to continue there, which is the unwritten commandment, it is imperative that Benjamin Net-and-yahoo, the other Bibi, comes to power in Israel.
Tzipi Livni, you should have formed a Govt., while you could! It is too late now.
I saw that you posted in the Pingreji dhaaga, so I assume you are checking posts here.
What is the perception about Obama's win vis-a-vis Israel ?
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
In Israel, largely (but i'd say mildly) negative. Apprehension about serious arm-twisting by the new white house. I think there was near unanimous recognition very early on, even during the primaries, that the Dems would come out on top. I dont quite subscribe to the theory that McCain would have been able to defeat a Hilary candidacy. This may well explain the stats on jewish voting in the US. The general consensus is that the strategic Israel-US relationship would continue, although with perhaps the occasional hiccups. I have a few family in the IDF, and to my surprise, they actually leaned towards Obama!! Still trying to figure if that was a statistical anamoly. One comment that absolutely stunned me was the observation that "McCain looked like a freakin gargoyle" on TV and came off as a senile old man. His manner was described as really stiff. Something i also heard frequently in my interactions with younger generation here in the US.lakshmic wrote:Sadler,RajeshA wrote:If Obama is for peace in the Middle-East, then for the proverbial morass to continue there, which is the unwritten commandment, it is imperative that Benjamin Net-and-yahoo, the other Bibi, comes to power in Israel.
Tzipi Livni, you should have formed a Govt., while you could! It is too late now.
I saw that you posted in the Pingreji dhaaga, so I assume you are checking posts here.
What is the perception about Obama's win vis-a-vis Israel ?
In the US, i am hearing news to the effect that a large section of liberal jews actually voted for Obama (resigning to the inecvitable, perhaps recognizing that McCain had a snowball's chance in heck of winning) to perhaps be able to wield some influence over foreign policy. This may well turn out to be wishful thinking but at any rate, one cant fault that logic. The one chance of respite for us (Israel) is that Obama is completely overwhelmed by domestic issues and wont have time to devote to international issues.
Personally, i cant see that Obama being a whole lot worse than McCain when it comes to domestic issues and perhaps even foreign policy. I am a fiscal and social conservative but of all the evils practised by both sides, the one evil i cannot condone is the conflation of religion and politics that the GOP is guilty of. Although i voted straight republican, i did so with great reluctance. Rationale being better the devil you know........
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
We pray that the Israeli hostages being held by the terrorists are safe and that they can be rescued alive.Here is a report on how neigbours of the Jewish home under seige fought the terrorists with rocks before some succumbed to gunfire.Today,the blood of Indians and Israelis have mingled together in a bond of friendship like that of David and Jonathan.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... India.html
Mumbai attacks: Neighbours battle terrorists attacking Jewish centre
Police commandoes battling the Mumbai terrorist attacks surrounded the headquarters of the ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group Chabad Lubavitch, which gunmen had seized overnight during a series of coordinated attacks across the city.
Last Updated: 11:35AM GMT 27 Nov 2008
Thousands of gawkers stood in the narrow alleyways near the white, five-story building in Mumbai (formerly Bombay) in India, where heavy curtains hung behind windows broken by gunfire. Neighbours had tried to protect the house as armed gunmen seized it Wednesday night.
A witness said three people were killed in the attack, but the account could not be confirmed.
"It seems that the terrorists commandeered a police vehicle which allowed them easy access to the area of the Chabad house and threw a grenade at a gas pump nearby," said Rabbi Zalman Shmotkin, a spokesman for the Lubavitch movement in New York, adding the attackers then "stormed the Chabad house."
The house serves as an educational centre, a synagogue and offers drug prevention services.
Residents tried to protect the centre, clashing with the gunmen and throwing rocks at them in an effort to drive the militants away, said Puran Doshi, a local businessman who lives nearby.
The crowd eventually retreated under fire from the gunmen, who wounded one man, killed three others and threw several hand grenades, he said. Police could not immediately confirm his account.
"They shot indiscriminately into the crowd," Doshi said.
Sanjay Bhasme, 40, who lives in the building behind Chabad house, said he notified the police after the shooting began about 9:45 p.m., but no police arrived for more than 30 minutes — and only after he'd repeatedly telephoned for help.
Shmotkin said he had been unable to confirm reports that a couple and a teenager had been killed in the melee. He did not know the status of Rabbi Gavriel Noach Holtzberg, the main representative at Chabad house, or the rabbi's family.
He said there were other families who lived at the house, which draws hundreds of Israeli and Jewish visitors from India and abroad each year.
Shots were heard a few times Thursday morning, and the commandoes fired tear gas at least once at the house, said witnesses. Three people were lead from the building and escorted away by police: a woman, a child and an Indian cook.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... India.html
Mumbai attacks: Neighbours battle terrorists attacking Jewish centre
Police commandoes battling the Mumbai terrorist attacks surrounded the headquarters of the ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group Chabad Lubavitch, which gunmen had seized overnight during a series of coordinated attacks across the city.
Last Updated: 11:35AM GMT 27 Nov 2008
Thousands of gawkers stood in the narrow alleyways near the white, five-story building in Mumbai (formerly Bombay) in India, where heavy curtains hung behind windows broken by gunfire. Neighbours had tried to protect the house as armed gunmen seized it Wednesday night.
A witness said three people were killed in the attack, but the account could not be confirmed.
"It seems that the terrorists commandeered a police vehicle which allowed them easy access to the area of the Chabad house and threw a grenade at a gas pump nearby," said Rabbi Zalman Shmotkin, a spokesman for the Lubavitch movement in New York, adding the attackers then "stormed the Chabad house."
The house serves as an educational centre, a synagogue and offers drug prevention services.
Residents tried to protect the centre, clashing with the gunmen and throwing rocks at them in an effort to drive the militants away, said Puran Doshi, a local businessman who lives nearby.
The crowd eventually retreated under fire from the gunmen, who wounded one man, killed three others and threw several hand grenades, he said. Police could not immediately confirm his account.
"They shot indiscriminately into the crowd," Doshi said.
Sanjay Bhasme, 40, who lives in the building behind Chabad house, said he notified the police after the shooting began about 9:45 p.m., but no police arrived for more than 30 minutes — and only after he'd repeatedly telephoned for help.
Shmotkin said he had been unable to confirm reports that a couple and a teenager had been killed in the melee. He did not know the status of Rabbi Gavriel Noach Holtzberg, the main representative at Chabad house, or the rabbi's family.
He said there were other families who lived at the house, which draws hundreds of Israeli and Jewish visitors from India and abroad each year.
Shots were heard a few times Thursday morning, and the commandoes fired tear gas at least once at the house, said witnesses. Three people were lead from the building and escorted away by police: a woman, a child and an Indian cook.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
CNN reports:Philip wrote:We pray that the Israeli hostages being held by the terrorists are safe and that they can be rescued alive.Here is a report on how neigbours of the Jewish home under seige fought the terrorists with rocks before some succumbed to gunfire.Today,the blood of Indians and Israelis have mingled together in a bond of friendship like that of David and Jonathan.
Unfortunately the young Rabbi and his wife are no more. This was a targeted killing, the only non-crowded or non-symbolic place to be assaulted by the ********.Rabbi Gavriel Noach Holtzberg, the city's envoy for the community, and his wife were among the dead in Chabad House, said Rabbi Zalman Shmotkin, a spokesman for Chabad-Lubavitch International in the United States.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Debka reports, An IDF air force plane has left for mumbai with defence officials and forensic experts, they will also bring back the bodies of Israeli's.
-
Hariprasad
- BRFite
- Posts: 247
- Joined: 10 Dec 2005 02:00
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
X posting from response thread
Israel praises Indian rescue efforts
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 57,00.html
First of all this article wrongly shows the Mumbai policemen as "troops". This is a deliberate misrepresentation on their part to show that Indian troops are ill-equipped and poorly trained. Second the response of an average Israeli based on the comments in the above link are extremely condescending, arrogant and ignorant.
Take a look at this article.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... QD94PBROG0
Israel praises Indian rescue efforts
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 57,00.html
First of all this article wrongly shows the Mumbai policemen as "troops". This is a deliberate misrepresentation on their part to show that Indian troops are ill-equipped and poorly trained. Second the response of an average Israeli based on the comments in the above link are extremely condescending, arrogant and ignorant.
Take a look at this article.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... QD94PBROG0
The Israeli press clearly seems hostile to India. I'm deeply disturbed by this given the bonhomie enjoyed by average Israeli on the Indian streets.On Friday, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said it was clear that Indian forces were not on par with elite Israeli units.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Israeli pride and constructive criticism is understandable not its arrogance....We will have to let it go....our small friend nation can be forgiven this once...Hariprasad wrote:X posting from response thread
Israel praises Indian rescue efforts
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 57,00.html
First of all this article wrongly shows the Mumbai policemen as "troops". This is a deliberate misrepresentation on their part to show that Indian troops are ill-equipped and poorly trained. Second the response of an average Israeli based on the comments in the above link are extremely condescending, arrogant and ignorant.
Take a look at this article.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... QD94PBROG0
The Israeli press clearly seems hostile to India. I'm deeply disturbed by this given the bonhomie enjoyed by average Israeli on the Indian streets.On Friday, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said it was clear that Indian forces were not on par with elite Israeli units.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Why blame them ? Our gubmint's commitment and competence towards protecting Israeli hostages is about as much as our gubmit's commitment and competence towards protecting our own citizens. Which is... not much. I hope the Israelis realize this. Indians love and respect the Israelis. They will always be welcomed here. My condolences for the loss of their lives.Hariprasad wrote:The Israeli press clearly seems hostile to India. I'm deeply disturbed by this given the bonhomie enjoyed by average Israeli on the Indian streets.
Retribution for this from India will be a long time coming, our people are outraged, unfortunately our political class is not. I hope Israelis never forget this.http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/30m ... orture.htm
Rediff reports
The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: "Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again," he said.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
We share the pain and sorrow of all Israelis and the global Jewish community at this unspeakable outrage,which makes us remember the worst atrocities of the Holocaust.May the souls of the departed find eternal rest at JHVH's feet.
Mumbai attacks: Jews tortured before executed during hostage crisis
Israeli hostages killed by Islamic terrorists during the attacks on Mumbai (formerly Bombay) were tortured by their captors before they were bound together and summarily executed, according to officials in both countries.
By Damien McElroy in Bombay
Last Updated: 2:18PM GMT 01 Dec 2008
Jewish victims made up a disproportionate number of the foreigners killed after 10 Muslim fanatics stormed a series of sites in the Indian financial capital.
Members of the beleaguered Jewish community in Mumbai gathered at a crumbling synagogue for a memorial for Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife Rivka, who ran the cultural centre targeted by the Deccan Mujahideen.
The couple's son, Moshe survived after his nanny, Sandra Samuel escaped with him in her arms 10 hours after the hostage incident started. The child cried "Ima" and "Dada," or mummy and daddy, as the service began.
Mosche's grandparents have arrived from Israel to take the orphaned boy home and there is intense pressure to grant Miss Samuel a visa by declaring her righteous among the gentiles.
Two countries have posted officials at the JJ Hospital morgue but there are at least twice as many Israeli disaster specialists as British consuls representing the former colonial power.
Israeli officials confirmed six Jews were dead but the figure is likely to rise to eight. The total number of foreigners killed in the attacks stands at 22.
A forensic team arrived on a specially chartered flight on Sunday night. "There are still a few yet to be identified – not a lot, under five – and this is why we need the forensic team," an Israeli diplomat said. "And there are two or three Israelis unaccounted for and we have a couple of bodies that could be them."
Doctors expressed horror at the condition of the bodies recovered from the Nariman Building, which housed the Orthodox Chabad-Lubavitch retreat.
"I have seen so many dead bodies in my life, and was traumatised," a mortician said. "It was apparent that most of the dead were tortured. What shocked me were the telltale signs showing clearly how the hostages were executed in cold blood."
The group that stormed Bombay's most famous institutions displayed unrestrained brutality throughout the mission. The captain of a fishing trawler hijacked by the group in Arabian Sea was found with his throat cut.
Police said 17 victims were pushed against a wall in the corridor of the Oberoi hotel and executed in a line.
One man who served a glass of water to a terrorist at Bombay's main railway station was shot in the forehead.
Mumbai attacks: Jews tortured before executed during hostage crisis
Israeli hostages killed by Islamic terrorists during the attacks on Mumbai (formerly Bombay) were tortured by their captors before they were bound together and summarily executed, according to officials in both countries.
By Damien McElroy in Bombay
Last Updated: 2:18PM GMT 01 Dec 2008
Jewish victims made up a disproportionate number of the foreigners killed after 10 Muslim fanatics stormed a series of sites in the Indian financial capital.
Members of the beleaguered Jewish community in Mumbai gathered at a crumbling synagogue for a memorial for Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife Rivka, who ran the cultural centre targeted by the Deccan Mujahideen.
The couple's son, Moshe survived after his nanny, Sandra Samuel escaped with him in her arms 10 hours after the hostage incident started. The child cried "Ima" and "Dada," or mummy and daddy, as the service began.
Mosche's grandparents have arrived from Israel to take the orphaned boy home and there is intense pressure to grant Miss Samuel a visa by declaring her righteous among the gentiles.
Two countries have posted officials at the JJ Hospital morgue but there are at least twice as many Israeli disaster specialists as British consuls representing the former colonial power.
Israeli officials confirmed six Jews were dead but the figure is likely to rise to eight. The total number of foreigners killed in the attacks stands at 22.
A forensic team arrived on a specially chartered flight on Sunday night. "There are still a few yet to be identified – not a lot, under five – and this is why we need the forensic team," an Israeli diplomat said. "And there are two or three Israelis unaccounted for and we have a couple of bodies that could be them."
Doctors expressed horror at the condition of the bodies recovered from the Nariman Building, which housed the Orthodox Chabad-Lubavitch retreat.
"I have seen so many dead bodies in my life, and was traumatised," a mortician said. "It was apparent that most of the dead were tortured. What shocked me were the telltale signs showing clearly how the hostages were executed in cold blood."
The group that stormed Bombay's most famous institutions displayed unrestrained brutality throughout the mission. The captain of a fishing trawler hijacked by the group in Arabian Sea was found with his throat cut.
Police said 17 victims were pushed against a wall in the corridor of the Oberoi hotel and executed in a line.
One man who served a glass of water to a terrorist at Bombay's main railway station was shot in the forehead.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Very easy for the Israelis to pontificate. Their country does not even have the population of mumbai (7 mil israelis at last count) and have a 170000 strong armed forces (not counting conscriptable population). Give them a country as large as india and a billion population and lets see them manage it without turning into nazis.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
My sincere condolences to the Indian victims. I can certainly agree with you that governing a nation of a billion plus people is not easy. Nor is tackling islamic terrorism. If you believe that indian govts, past and present have adequately tacked the islamic menace both within and from outside, i can certainly respect that opinion. And apologise on behalf of my countrymen.HariC wrote:Very easy for the Israelis to pontificate. Their country does not even have the population of mumbai (7 mil israelis at last count) and have a 170000 strong armed forces (not counting conscriptable population). Give them a country as large as india and a billion population and lets see them manage it without turning into nazis.
Shalom.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Just FYI. Please dont assume that there is some kind of a hostility or conspiracy that marks every israeli word or action. The "troops" part could be an honest mistake. Looks like it was taken from the AP, and ynet may have just used the caption that came along with it. In that article, (the first one), i really did not think that there was anything condescending, arrogant or ignorant stated by anyone.Hariprasad wrote:X posting from response thread
Israel praises Indian rescue efforts
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 57,00.html
First of all this article wrongly shows the Mumbai policemen as "troops". This is a deliberate misrepresentation on their part to show that Indian troops are ill-equipped and poorly trained. Second the response of an average Israeli based on the comments in the above link are extremely condescending, arrogant and ignorant.
Take a look at this article.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... QD94PBROG0
The Israeli press clearly seems hostile to India. I'm deeply disturbed by this given the bonhomie enjoyed by average Israeli on the Indian streets.On Friday, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said it was clear that Indian forces were not on par with elite Israeli units.
I do agree that Barak's remarks were uncalled for. I have very little military background myself, but based on what i have seen here on BRF, i dont think India's elite CI forces given their background in various ops against islamic terrorists is anything but top notch. Barak has a habit of shooting his mouth off. Once again, i apologise.
Shalom.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
X Post.
Indian nanny who saved Israeli child in the Mumbai terrorist attack honoured by Israel :
Indian nanny who saved Israeli child in the Mumbai terrorist attack honoured by Israel :
Israel names nanny a 'righteous gentile'
Jason Koutsoukis, Jerusalem
December 2, 2008
THE Indian nanny who rescued two-year-old Moshe Holtzberg from the attack at Mumbai's Chabad Jewish Centre will be conferred with a special honour usually reserved for those who risked their lives to save Jews from the Holocaust.
The "righteous gentile" award will enable Sandra Samuel to live in Israel. She and Moshe are expected to arrive in the country next week to live with the boy's maternal grandparents.
This is the honour that was bestowed on Oskar Schindler, the German industrialist who was the subject of Thomas Keneally's novel, Schindler's Ark. The book was turned into a film by Steven Spielberg.
Lauded a hero by the Chabad movement and Moshe's family, Ms Samuel had worked at the centre for about five years. She started caring for Moshe and had become "extremely connected to him", according to family and friends.
As terrorists stormed the Chabad centre last week, Ms Samuel locked herself in a room with another staff member.
The following morning, she heard Moshe calling her name and went to look for him.
She found Moshe, his pants covered in blood, crying beside his motionless parents. Ms Samuel told reporters she grabbed the child and ran outside.
Moshe's parents, Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife Rivka, were confirmed dead after commandos stormed the building. Ms Samuel has expressed a desire to move to Israel to stay with the boy. She will accompany Moshe's grandparents on a special flight being arranged by Israel's air force.
According to Menachem Brod, a spokesman for Chabad in Israel, the only obstacle to Ms Samuel being conferred with the status of "righteous gentile" is the paperwork.
The story of Moshe's survival and his quick-witted nanny has captured the hearts of terror-hardened Israelis, who have been gripped by the saga unfolding in a country many feel they know.
Six hostages were found dead inside the Chabad centre.
The Age, Australia
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Hariprasad
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Sadler no need to apologize. If you take a look at the comments made below especially by Israelis in the first article: (39 Talkbacks for this article ).Sadler wrote:Hariprasad wrote:X posting from response thread
Looks like it was taken from the AP, and ynet may have just used the caption that came along with it. In that article, (the first one), i really did not think that there was anything condescending, arrogant or ignorant stated by anyone.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Thanks. Just FYI (and you probably know this already) but Ehud is the jacka$$ who nearly gave up (offered) everything we fought for to the PLO. Good for us that the PLO leadership was even more idiotic than Barak and they spurned that offer. As i recollect, it would have effectively given Jerusalem to the PLO.Hariprasad wrote:Sadler no need to apologize. If you take a look at the comments made below especially by Israelis in the first article: (39 Talkbacks for this article ).Sadler wrote:
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Guys, like India, Israel is a democracy and people do tend to talk and analyse and debate just as much as we do... the argumentative Indian and the argumentative Israeli will get along just fine...
The timing of the semi-official comments from the Israeli side were unfortunate.. However, the government statements have been faultless and completely sympathetic... In democracies that is what we should look at... And I can assure you, on a public level India has nothing but sympathy among the Jewish people...And these comments notwithstanding, Indians broadly have nothing but warmth for the Jewish people... Let us leave this comment issue behind and move on
We have a much more serious task at hand...taking care of the mofos in Pakistan who did this to our country...
The timing of the semi-official comments from the Israeli side were unfortunate.. However, the government statements have been faultless and completely sympathetic... In democracies that is what we should look at... And I can assure you, on a public level India has nothing but sympathy among the Jewish people...And these comments notwithstanding, Indians broadly have nothing but warmth for the Jewish people... Let us leave this comment issue behind and move on
We have a much more serious task at hand...taking care of the mofos in Pakistan who did this to our country...
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
What is very clear from this outrage,is that the growing Indo-Israeli relationship which is blossoming was also being attacked.It is a blatant and brazen act inviting a response.The manner in which the attackers just wanted to kiill and kill for their own warped and perverted reasons demands that this outrage should not go unpunished .May that response come swiftly to the masterminds of this evil act.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
The Israelis seem to be unusually quiet about the Paki hand....
I have feeling something is brewng since biting dogs seldom bark. Hope that atleast they prod MMS into some action(since the media and junta seem to be unable to do so) or better, they take some action.
I have feeling something is brewng since biting dogs seldom bark. Hope that atleast they prod MMS into some action(since the media and junta seem to be unable to do so) or better, they take some action.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Israeli experts help India prepare commando raids into Pakistan
New Delhi has asked Jerusalem to assist in the operational and intelligence planning of Indian commando cross-border strikes against Islamist terrorist havens in Pakistan - including al Qaeda, Indian counter-terror sources report.
The Indian government's decision to embark on these in-and-out incursions in reprisal for the Mumbai outrage of Nov. 26-29 was first revealed in DEBKA-Net-Weekly 375 published Dec. 4 (Indian Retaliatory Raids inside Pakistan Impending).
[/b]
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
I am not sure how reliable DEBKA is, but I certainly hope the offensive arm of RAW is built up with Israeli assistance. Cooperation on the pest-e-shaheedizing the Mumbai attack planners would be a bonus.shyamd wrote:Israeli experts help India prepare commando raids into Pakistan
New Delhi has asked Jerusalem to assist in the operational and intelligence planning of Indian commando cross-border strikes against Islamist terrorist havens in Pakistan - including al Qaeda, Indian counter-terror sources report.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Israelis need India's support On Iran... That should explain the silence...sum wrote:The Israelis seem to be unusually quiet about the Paki hand....
I have feeling something is brewng since biting dogs seldom bark. Hope that atleast they prod MMS into some action(since the media and junta seem to be unable to do so) or better, they take some action.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Israel's opposition Likud party has selected a hawkish slate of candidates for upcoming parliamentary elections, results showed Tuesday, making peace moves with Israel's Arab neighbors increasingly unlikely if the front-running party wins a Feb. 10 national vote. However, by making the Likud appear more extreme, the primary's results may provide a boost to the centrist Kadima party, which favors pressing ahead with current U.S.-backed peace negotiations and which has been falling further behind its Likud rival in recent surveys.
The Likud has traditionally been a hardline party supportive of the religious West Bank settlement movement and skeptical about withdrawing from captured territory as part of a peace agreement. But leader Benjamin Netanyahu had hoped to present a more mainstream list of candidates to bolster his party's support among the general public. To that end, he supported a number of popular ex-generals, politicians and other figures with broad appeal, while trying to marginalize more hardline candidates.
Party members voting in the primary election that ended early Tuesday rejected many of the newcomers and largely chose candidates with uncompromising views. Those include Benny Begin, son of former prime minister Menahem Begin, who told Israel's Army Radio on Tuesday that ``there will be no (peace) agreement in the near future'' because of Arab rejection of Israel. Begin left the Likud in the 1990s because he believed it was too moderate, and later left politics altogether. Another is Moshe Feiglin, an extremist settler whose theocratic platform calls for barring Arabs from Israel's parliament, encouraging non-Jews to emigrate and pulling Israel out of the United Nations. He is viewed as extreme even by many Israeli settlers, and his messianic ideology differs from the Likud's traditionally secular, security-oriented outlook. "Today we have chosen new leadership for Israel. This is the best team that any party in our country can put forward," Netanyahu said after polls closed.
But Netanyahu had openly campaigned against Feiglin, and Likud officials suggested the party might still be able to use legal technicalities to bump him down to a lower spot on the list. But Feiglin's success was widely seen as a setback for the Likud leader. "The people who were deliberating between Kadima and the Likud now know that if they vote for the Likud they will vote in ... people who are from the right-wing fringe of the right-wing fringe,'' said Haim Ramon, a Cabinet minister from Kadima. Speaking on Army Radio, Ramon said that even if Netanyahu wants to push peace efforts with the Palestinians or Syria, his lawmakers would torpedo any such plans.
Netanyahu served as prime minister from 1996 to 1999, and peace efforts suffered during his tenure. Netanyahu says he has learned from past mistakes and, if elected, wants to form a broad coalition with moderate partners. No party has ever won an outright majority, making coalitions the rule. Netanyahu does not reject peace negotiations outright, but has proposed what he calls "economic peace" with the Palestinians, an alternative plan that would see Israel construct factories and create jobs for Palestinians while maintaining its military occupation of the West Bank indefinitely.
Polls in recent weeks have showed the Likud leading Kadima, headed by moderate Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, who has served as chief negotiator with the Palestinians. Kadima's popularity has suffered because of the legal entanglements of several of its senior members, chiefly outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who is being forced from office because of a series of corruption investigations.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holn ... 100301.htm
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Israeli leaders talk little and act big.A policy that Indian politicos should emulate.If we are going to strike,then the tactics EW/IT warfare that the Israelis specialise in should be emulated.Pak's air and missile defences must either be taken out or neutralised first before the targets are hit.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Jerusalem Counter terrorist centre ask Israeli citizens not to visit Goa during Dec-Jan holidays.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
I doubt India will ever again openly support any country in anything against Iran....renukb wrote:Israelis need India's support On Iran... That should explain the silence...sum wrote:The Israelis seem to be unusually quiet about the Paki hand....
I have feeling something is brewng since biting dogs seldom bark. Hope that atleast they prod MMS into some action(since the media and junta seem to be unable to do so) or better, they take some action.
Last time India voted against Iran for the nuclear issue and the Ruski (as also the nuclear deal with US) relationship grew cold...this point is moot of course, its not the only reason..India wud have learnt hard lessons from this...at this juncture where India is trying to become both financially and militarily strong it cannot afford to estrange either the Americans or the Ruskies...
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
This is how we let down our Israeli friends 
From dailypioneer.com. Posting in full:
From dailypioneer.com. Posting in full:
Closet Islamists in PM’s team?
Kanchan Gupta
Even before Mumbai’s first night of horror was over, by early morning of November 27 Islamist websites were flush with claims that the multiple attacks had been planned and executed by Hindus, Jews and Christians to malign Muslims. The Muslim Brotherhood’s website, http://www.ikhwanweb.com, had an article on its home page, allegedly written by a certain ‘Amaresh Misra’ (misra.amaresh@gmail.com) which said, “It is clear that Mossad is involved in the whole affair. An entire city has been attacked by Mossad and probably units of mercenaries (sic). It is not possible for one single organisation to plan and execute such a sophisticated operation.” Fear of libel laws prevents me from reproducing other more outrageous excerpts from the article. Later that day, the website posted a message from one ‘FM Shah’ (lion.of.khyber@gmail.com) in response to the article. According to the ‘Lion of Khyber’, the fidayeen raid on Mumbai had been “made and produced in India with the help of CIA/Mossad in order to make Pakistan the scapegoat”. The Ikhwan website also provided the ‘evidence’ for this preposterous claim: “The firing by terrorists began from Nariman House (Chabad House, the headquarters of a local Jewish outreach programme). And that for two years suspicious activities were going on in this house. But no one took notice… A photograph published in Urdu Times of Mumbai clearly shows that Mossad and ex-Mossad men came to India…”
With Islamists of all varieties increasingly using the Internet to propagate their vile ideology and subvert the truth, such messages are read by millions of Muslims, many of them with impressionable minds. They are replicated on other websites, picked up by propagandists who use the pulpit to preach hatred, and reproduced in community — and even ‘mainstream’ — Arabic and Urdu newspapers. Soon, a blatant lie becomes the dominant truth. Recall how what began as an absurd campaign of calumny after 9/11 — that the attacks on America had been ‘masterminded by Zionists’ and ‘Jews had been alerted not to turn up for work at the World Trade Center’ on that day — is now widely perceived as fact by many Muslims, including in India. A Jamia Millia Islamia professor once told me that the images we saw live on our television screens on 9/11 were “studio simulated”. He emphatically said, “There were no aircraft involved in the incident. Controlled explosions, in which the Israelis excel, were used to blow up the twin towers. All this was done to justify the invasion of Afghanistan and later Iraq.” I am sure he has repeated more lurid versions of this story to his students. I wouldn’t be surprised if he has picked up the Ikhwan’s ‘Mossad is behind the Mumbai attack’ story and spun a ‘Islam is in danger’ yarn out of it.
What lends credibility to such Goebbelsian propaganda is the bunkum that appears in Western media. For instance, The New York Times carried a ‘news story’ written by Fernanda Santos on November 27, which said that Chabad House was “an unlikely target of the terrorist gunmen who unleashed a series of bloody coordinated attacks at locations in and around Mumbai’s commercial centre… It is not known if the Jewish centre was strategically chosen, or if it was an accidental hostage scene”. Perhaps Ms Santos is of the view that the six Jewish hostages who were trussed up, brutally tortured and then slaughtered by the two jihadis who had taken over Chabad House, were ‘accidental’ victims of the terror strike. It would, however, be unfair to blame Ms Santos and her ilk, among them ‘star’ journalists and anchors whose bilge we get to read in ‘mainstream’ newspapers and hear on ‘national’ news channels here in India, alone for such perversion. The Government headed by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is equally guilty.
On December 9, Minister of State for External Affairs E Ahamed read out a statement in the United Nations Security Council, pleading India’s case for action against Pakistan-based terrorist groups. Here is an excerpt from the official text of the statement: “A group of ten terrorists from the global terrorist organisation Lashkar-e-Tayyeba reached Mumbai in the evening of 26th November 2008. The group divided themselves into four smaller groups and proceeded to pre-selected targets which included a café, popular with Indian and foreign tourists, and two major hotels.” There was no mention of, or allusion to, the fourth group’s pre-selected target, Chabad House, and the fact that the Jewish centre was attacked by the jihadis for obvious reasons. It’s almost as if nothing happened at Chabad House, that no Jews were tortured and killed by the terrorists for the simple reason that they were Jews. What makes the omission stand out like a sore thumb is the global outpouring of Jewish support for India, the outrage in the West over the targeted killings which we have used to our advantage, and the Israeli Government’s unequivocal endorsement of the tough commando action.
Whose decision was it to excise this detail from the statement? Did Mr Ahamed of the Muslim League decide not to mention it? Did he find the words ‘Israel’ and ‘Jews’ too distasteful to utter? Or was he trying to gloss over the Islamists’ visceral hatred of Jews? It is unlikely that Mr Ahamed would have decided on his own to leave out the specific detail of the Jewish centre being attacked while alluding to Leopold Café, Taj Mahal Palace and Oberoi-Trident Hotel. Given the sensitivity of the issue, the statement would have been cleared by the Minister for External Affairs and approved by the Prime Minister. So, who decided to drop the reference to Chabad House? And for what purpose? Was it done with an eye to Muslim ‘sentiments’ — like those of the Jamia professor and his tribe for whom Jew-baiting is a noble virtue — at home? Or was it meant to serve as a message to Islamists at large that this Government has no complaints against them so long as they don’t indulge in what Mr Tom Vadakkam of the Congress described on television as a “light and sound show”?
Meanwhile, late Saturday evening I decided to check whether http://www.jamatdawah.org, the website of Jamaat-ud-Dawah, the nom de plume of Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, had been blocked subsequent to the Security Council’s sanctions on the organisation and its amir, Hafiz Muhammad Saeed. The website, with its inflammatory contents, remains unaffected. A statement issued by Saeed has just been posted. It says, “The UN sanctions against Jamaat-ud-Dawah, only one day after India’s demand, are a clear proof of its malice and enmity towards Islam.” Don’t laugh at the claim. It’s sure to find a resonance with those who believe that Mossad organised the “light and sound show” in Mumbai. So much for the efforts of the closet Islamists in the Prime Minister’s team to suppress the detail about Chabad House.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home
Go Israel!
Its heartening to know that there are brave people like y'all in this world who are willing to take care of your citizens and countrymen...unlike some coward surrender monkeys of a cowardice nation.
Go Israel!
Its heartening to know that there are brave people like y'all in this world who are willing to take care of your citizens and countrymen...unlike some coward surrender monkeys of a cowardice nation.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
^Nothing much gain from attacking gaza, neither politically nor diplomatically or from security point of view. the relatives of dead will join one of the terror outfits for 'revenge' and the rockets attack on israel are still continuing even after by the action by israeli warplanes and helicopters. And being realistic is not cowardliness. hamas will gain in popularity, an exact opposite of the intended outcome of the attack which was stop the rocket attacks and distance hamas from civilian population.
Israel attacks Gaza, 195 reported killed
GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli warplanes and helicopters pounded the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip on Saturday, killing at least 195 people in one of the bloodiest days in the Palestinians' conflict with Israel.
Militants in the Gaza Strip, who have launched dozens of rocket attacks against Israel since a truce expired just over a week ago, fired more salvoes that killed one Israeli man and wounded several others.
http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRe ... 2320081227
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Avinash,
An interesting point of view, and undoubtedly one that is shared by many - especially outside Israel. However, there may be different perspectives on the thing. For instance...
>>^Nothing much gain from attacking gaza, neither politically nor diplomatically or from security point of view.
Maybe there is nothing sought to be "gained". For instance, what has Hamas to gain from rocketing Israel, politically, diplomatically or from security point of view? Clearly nothing. All they accomplished was to terrorise and kill. The Israelis are doing the same - only on a larger scale. Why should they expect to accomplish more? But they can certainly kill and terrorise more, which they are doing...
>>the relatives of dead will join one of the terror outfits for 'revenge' and the rockets attack on israel are still continuing even after by the action by israeli warplanes and helicopters.
You are assuming that Israel expects the rocket attacks to stop. But suppose to them deterrence would only be a bonus, and the objective is not really to deter - just to kill and terrorise more - in terms of numbers?
>>And being realistic is not cowardliness.
Indeed. If Hamas were "realistic" now, they would realise that the Israelis can certainly kill and terrorise more than they can - and that might give them pause for thought. However, they believe ABSOLUTELY that they are destined to win. They believe with certainty that all their people love death as much as the Israelis love life. As such, they are at the horns of a dilemma. Can they prove that they love death more than life by letting more of their people die for much longer? We shall see.
>>hamas will gain in popularity, an exact opposite of the intended outcome of the attack which was stop the rocket attacks and distance hamas from civilian population.
We do not know the intended outcome of the attack. Hamas will certainly gain in popularity - but, if so, that is only a function of the stupidity of the Palestinian public who are unable to think through their present reality. But whether or not Hamas gains in popularity, the hatred of the Palestinians is not going to increase significantly. They have pretty much reached a peak... I don't think they can "hate more"... to the extent that it will have a significant impact on how they are dealing with the Israelis now. The ball is in the Palestinian court.
It is not relevant whether Hamas is close to the population or distant from it. What matters to the Israelis is what they are doing, and how long they can do it, and how can Israel reduce the impact of Hamas' best efforts. It is a fight to the finish.
It is not entirely different from what we face on our western border. Only we are dealing with it differently, given the peculiarities of our situation. Neither is a "better" way. It is simply a different way. The outcome, however, is certain. In each case, one population will have to submit to the will of the more powerful one. Only the amount of violence required to achieve that will differ. That's all.
An interesting point of view, and undoubtedly one that is shared by many - especially outside Israel. However, there may be different perspectives on the thing. For instance...
>>^Nothing much gain from attacking gaza, neither politically nor diplomatically or from security point of view.
Maybe there is nothing sought to be "gained". For instance, what has Hamas to gain from rocketing Israel, politically, diplomatically or from security point of view? Clearly nothing. All they accomplished was to terrorise and kill. The Israelis are doing the same - only on a larger scale. Why should they expect to accomplish more? But they can certainly kill and terrorise more, which they are doing...
>>the relatives of dead will join one of the terror outfits for 'revenge' and the rockets attack on israel are still continuing even after by the action by israeli warplanes and helicopters.
You are assuming that Israel expects the rocket attacks to stop. But suppose to them deterrence would only be a bonus, and the objective is not really to deter - just to kill and terrorise more - in terms of numbers?
>>And being realistic is not cowardliness.
Indeed. If Hamas were "realistic" now, they would realise that the Israelis can certainly kill and terrorise more than they can - and that might give them pause for thought. However, they believe ABSOLUTELY that they are destined to win. They believe with certainty that all their people love death as much as the Israelis love life. As such, they are at the horns of a dilemma. Can they prove that they love death more than life by letting more of their people die for much longer? We shall see.
>>hamas will gain in popularity, an exact opposite of the intended outcome of the attack which was stop the rocket attacks and distance hamas from civilian population.
We do not know the intended outcome of the attack. Hamas will certainly gain in popularity - but, if so, that is only a function of the stupidity of the Palestinian public who are unable to think through their present reality. But whether or not Hamas gains in popularity, the hatred of the Palestinians is not going to increase significantly. They have pretty much reached a peak... I don't think they can "hate more"... to the extent that it will have a significant impact on how they are dealing with the Israelis now. The ball is in the Palestinian court.
It is not relevant whether Hamas is close to the population or distant from it. What matters to the Israelis is what they are doing, and how long they can do it, and how can Israel reduce the impact of Hamas' best efforts. It is a fight to the finish.
It is not entirely different from what we face on our western border. Only we are dealing with it differently, given the peculiarities of our situation. Neither is a "better" way. It is simply a different way. The outcome, however, is certain. In each case, one population will have to submit to the will of the more powerful one. Only the amount of violence required to achieve that will differ. That's all.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
That is a darn good point.JE Menon wrote: >>^Nothing much gain from attacking gaza, neither politically nor diplomatically or from security point of view.
Maybe there is nothing sought to be "gained". For instance, what has Hamas to gain from rocketing Israel, politically, diplomatically or from security point of view? Clearly nothing. All they accomplished was to terrorise and kill. The Israelis are doing the same - only on a larger scale. Why should they expect to accomplish more? But they can certainly kill and terrorise more, which they are doing...
Next: Israel prepares Gaza ground incursion, Hamas gears for suicide terror
I expect to wake up tomorrow morning with Israeli tanks in Gaza. But the reason why Hamas didn't respond a lot was because they don't want Israel to come in YET. But its not going their way for the moment as Israel gets ready for a ground attack.DEBKAfile's military sources assess the next stage of Israel's Gaza campaign as being a ground incursion of the Gaza Strip, to follow up the air bombardment of Hamas compounds Saturday, Dec. 27. Hamas estimates that in four minutes, dozens of Israeli bombers and helicopters flattened 30 "high profile" sites. At least 350 Palestinians were killed, 90 percent of them Hamas operatives, and between 700 and 800 more were injured. Some of the casualties are still buried under the rubble. The blow sustained by the Palestinian Islamist terrorist group was massive by any military standards and severely upset its military equilibrium. Its retaliation against Israeli towns and villages was therefore slower and smaller in scope that Israel expected.
The fifty plus missiles fired into Israel included a small number of 42-range Grad Katyusha rockets made in Iran. One Israeli was killed and several injured in Netivot and three more hurt when Sderot synagogue too a direct missile hit.
Nonetheless, Hamas will not show a white flag, even after losing hundreds of its military and police personnel, including top commanders, and will make a supreme effort to retaliate from the Gaza Strip as well as mobilizing its substantial Hizballah-backed command center in Lebanon. Hamas operatives will be pressed into service as suicide terrorists. They remain active after Israeli units and Mahmoud Abbas' special forces trained by US and British instructors conducted systematic crackdowns to crush them for more than a year. The second blow in the form of a formidable Israeli ground incursion without delay is therefore imperative to prevent Hamas getting its second wind.
While Israel's air attack is counted a success, its war chiefs are taking care not to be trapped by an early achievement into the sort of blunders which led to the Lebanon war's unsatisfactory conclusion in 2006. That campaign was commanded by a former airman, Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, who saw no point in a ground operation after Hizballah's command center was razed by air – until it was too late.
The first objective of a ground force in the coming hours will be to destroy "Lower Gaza," the underground city designed by an Iranian general and spread under most of the enclave's area. This subterranean sanctuary kept the bulk of the Hamas army, 15,000 men, their officers and leaders, out of harm's way during the Israeli air offensive Saturday. Their resistance must be broken before Hamas can be brought to surrender. Until then they will fight on.
The second Israeli objective must be to sever the Gaza Strip from Egypt by recapturing the Philadelphi border strip.
These missions are formidable indeed and may take weeks of ups and downs, which is why prime minister Ehud Olmert's goal of restoring normal lives to the people of southern Israel is a lot less simplistic than it sounds. The air operation was indeed just the beginning.
What Israel will expect in summary:
-With a large stock of chlorine it acquired from Egyptian and Iraqi smugglers, Hamas and its affiliated organizations are reportedly now in a position to carry out toxic gas attacks.
-Nearly 150 such tunnels are now in use and they are highly difficult to detect because they end up on the Palestinian side in houses inhabited by prominent figures.
- Hamas have received Anti tank weapons, 15 tons of explosives, 14000 assault rifles.
- Hamas have now found more militants who are willing to blow up Israeli tanks using suicide.
- Massive underground bunkers, similar to that faced in Lebanon in 2006.
- Anti Air weapons were used day before yesterday.
My prediction: this will last a while. On past intelligence input, Hezbollah will not step in. Hamas has some terrorists operating in Lebanon border. Israel will probably allow Hamas to rule Gaza.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
I hope some Israeli missiles get misfired and land in satanist land of pakis.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Why do people start talking about strategic and political disadvantages as soon as some one (normally it is only Israel) starts taking military action against the terrorists.I am pretty sure if India were to do to Pakistan what Israel is doing to Gaza, same voices will talk about making Jehadis more popular and more takleef to Ummah and eventually more terrorist actions.
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Rishirishi
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Should we not expect the Indian government to take action?darshan wrote:I hope some Israeli missiles get misfired and land in satanist land of pakis.
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Hamas is a terrorist org and is banned in many countries including japan. as far as i know no terrorist attack by hamas has taken place on japanese soil but the dangerous nature of hamas has compelled even a pacifist nation like japan to ban hamas.JE Menon wrote:Maybe there is nothing sought to be "gained". For instance, what has Hamas to gain from rocketing Israel, politically, diplomatically or from security point of view? Clearly nothing. All they accomplished was to terrorise and kill.
The primary aim of Hamas is to terrorize the "zionist enemy" (as hamas calls israel). It has accomplised it's goal of terrorising the people of israel by the daily barrage of rocket attacks into israel.
Politically it will gain respect and more followers among the palestinian and arab population which wants to "throw the jews into the sea".
Monetary gain too as people subscribing to these views among the ME population will increase the much needed funding for hamas rather than funding other groups which want a peaceful resolution.
The sunni arab leaders who are trying hard to sideline hamas supported by shia iran will now have to open diplomatic channels to try and prevent hamas from increasing the level of attacks and violence against israel and stop this from turning into a war.
If the arab leaders talk to hamas then it's a diplomatic gain for hamas. From a terror org they now are perceived as a group which is the legitimate voice of palestinians.
Another political benefit is since other rival palestinian factions like fatah are sidelined internally, losing support among palestinian for not being able to stop israeli attacks and externally too, when you can talk to hamas and stabilise the situation why talk to fatah?
And this is another gain for hamas. they managed to create anger against israel(their enemy) among population of those countries whose leaders tried to create a more peaceful ME rather than ME full of jehadis.
Governments that dislike Hamas, like Egypt's, Jordan's and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, are in a delicate position. They blame Hamas for having taken over Gaza by force 18 months ago and oppose its rocket fire on Israeli towns and communities. But the sight of scores of Palestinians killed by Israeli warplanes outraged their citizens, and anti-Israel demonstrations broke out across the region. Egypt, worried about possible efforts by Palestinians to enter the country, has set up machine guns along the Gaza border.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/27/ ... php?page=2
Even Turkish Premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan, whose government has helped mediate talks between Israel and Syria, called the attacks a blow to peace.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull
Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion
Any military action is carried out with an aim in mind that has to be accomplished. If israel is not expecting a reduction in rocket attacks on it's civilians or a decrease in ability of hamas to carry out further attacks then this current attack on hamas serves no purpose.JE Menon wrote:You are assuming that Israel expects the rocket attacks to stop. But suppose to them deterrence would only be a bonus, and the objective is not really to deter - just to kill and terrorise more - in terms of numbers?
JEMenon the realistic and cowardly comments were not made in relation to hamas or israel but to the person's comment above my first post who took a simplistic view of the current events and wanted a similar response from india against terrorists operating from pakistani soil and supported by it's military establishment. The more one tries to link palestine with kashmir situation by demanding similar response, the more one plays into the hands of pakistani dictators who want to link them both and present them as "root causes" of terrorism throughout the world.JE Menon wrote:>>And being realistic is not cowardliness.
Indeed. If Hamas were "realistic" now...
This deflects attention from the jehadisation of civilian population in pakistan and the active role that pakistan military is playing by funding madrassas that preach a violent jehad and by supporting the islamic parties to garner support. musharraf and previous dictators have done so to sideline other more democratic parties in pakistan. Even kiyani continues the support and those military leaders who oppose the "peace" deals with taliban are killed like the recent killing of alvi.
Well as they say there is no limit to love or hate. The hate is bound too increase, not only against israel but also against the US for supporting this israeli actions. More al-qaeda videos are going to be produced with images of these dead people being used for propaganda purpose and advocating suicide bombings as a way to fight the infidels. If there is an increase in suicide bombings in iraq or afghanistan then "security analysts" will be advocating "resolution of root causes of muslim anger" which in turn will mean more pressure on israel to come to talks with hamas and settle the issue.JE Menon wrote:But whether or not Hamas gains in popularity, the hatred of the Palestinians is not going to increase significantly. They have pretty much reached a peak... I don't think they can "hate more"... to the extent that it will have a significant impact on how they are dealing with the Israelis now.