Bharat Rakshak

SaiK wrote:Now I am thinking why wouldn't GTRE rename their Kaveri product to some Ganga or Godavari. The K word is jinxed. Psycho matters.

Maybe they were inspired by Ekta Kapoor and her Ka obsession!

mayurav, i just quoted the stats from site and showed the river path. In this discussion people were making wild % claims which I did not believe. I am not the expert on how to divvy up a river resources, that is why we had the national committee on Kaveri water distribution but their verdict was pooh poohed here with other arguments. When we have had experts and presumably independent jurors on a national verdict which is not honored by KA and TN then the only remaining solution is to nationalize water resources.

Rye wrote:mayurav wrote:

Back to the just use of the waters - one option is to say that river water is a national/state resource and tax it and redistribute the wealth.

Redistributing the wealth is the wrong way to do it, since the money generated should be recycled into the national water grid, and this should also be done for electricity and other public resources that the GoI is responsible for -- the money collected should be used for the upkeep and improvement of the national water/electricity grid.

There should be a national water policy that outlines the responsibility of the state in bringing water to each state in proportion to its population by whatever means necessary.

The solutions will then have to be applied based on local constraints and strengths.

Water grid is one way to redistribute the wealth and definitely one of the better ways. There are many ways to redistribute, but I am afraid that once the money goes into the system (government at State or Central level) it most of it will end up in someone's pocket. But thats a completely different story.

SwamyG wrote:There is an expectation that TN should wean away its farmers from agriculture. Is this practical? Is this a fair expectation?

Nice try at incorrect generalization!

TN should wean away its farmers away from agriculture that is dependent on some crazy people upstream releasing enough water. Hell, if I were a farmer I would not rely on some dude upstream releasing water especially when I know that he can just as well use the water like me and grow nice crops and improve his living standard. I would be thinking of diversifying away from this dependency either by switching to rain harvested agriculture, crop patterns that are not water intensive or to alternate economic activity like manufacturing or services.

It will be lunacy to rely on that water and think that "Ah! I have been doing this for centuries.. I have a natural right to do it".

If I were to be at helm in TN from 20 years back, I would have installed a canal based irrigation system for all the effected farmers all over the effected areas plus other places. Bring the desalinated sea water ( not really pure, but pure enough for agriculture), and send it to the farm lands.

Some 1000Kms of canal network must be in place by now. blame the kazhagams.

bala wrote:mayurav, i just quoted the stats from site and showed the river path. In this discussion people were making wild % claims which I did not believe. I am not the expert on how to divvy up a river resources, that is why we had the national committee on Kaveri water distribution but their verdict was pooh poohed here with other arguments. When we have had experts and presumably independent jurors on a national verdict which is not honored by KA and TN then the only remaining solution is to nationalize water resources.

Arrey bhai, we regularly pooh pooh GoI here. Elected MPs and PMs are pooh poohed here. Judges are pooh poohed here. We know that the tribunal is not beyond politics and pressures of the times. What does your heart and mind say? Is the tribunal award really fair?

Somebody who has been sitting on his backside and watching a river flow by for centuries only to see it being utilized downstream for gaining wealth has gotten off his backside and decided to do the same. Does your heart and mind agree if someone says that he cannot do so because historically he sat on his backside and watched the river flow by?

mayurav wrote:

SwamyG wrote:There is an expectation that TN should wean away its farmers from agriculture. Is this practical? Is this a fair expectation?

Nice try at incorrect generalization!

TN should wean away its farmers away from agriculture that is dependent on some crazy people upstream releasing enough water. Hell, if I were a farmer I would not rely on some dude upstream releasing water especially when I know that he can just as well use the water like me and grow nice crops and improve his living standard. I would be thinking of diversifying away from this dependency either by switching to rain harvested agriculture, crop patterns that are not water intensive or to alternate economic activity like manufacturing or services.

It will be lunacy to rely on that water and think that "Ah! I have been doing this for centuries.. I have a natural right to do it".

What you are essentially implying is that TN being the lower riparian state has no right to water and its citizens should look at other means of livelihood because KA suddenly realized that it has water and it will start cultivating its lands! That KA will use all it needs and if they have any left they will send it to TN. So where do all the farmers who have been doing what they are doing for the last several generations go? Is KA willing to pay for their new skills training or is it willing to invest enough money to create 4 million jobs? The entire problem could have been solved very easily but for geniuses like you.

Why don't you practice what you preach? Since TN farmers have been doing this for centuries and KA is the newcomer here (as per your logic, not mine), why don't people of KA look at "diversifying away from this dependency either by switching to rain harvested agriculture, crop patterns that are not water intensive or to alternate economic activity like manufacturing or services"? Makes too much sense...eh?

mayurav wrote:

Water grid is one way to redistribute the wealth and definitely one of the better ways.

Huh? What? Never mind. People who cannot differentiate between water management and socialist concepts of wealth distribution should be more leery of expressing their opinions.

KarthikSan wrote: What you are essentially implying is that TN being the lower riparian state has no right to water and its citizens should look at other means of livelihood because KA suddenly realized that it has water and it will start cultivating its lands! That KA will use all it needs and if they have any left they will send it to TN. So where do all the farmers who have been doing what they are doing for the last several generations go? Is KA willing to pay for their new skills training or is it willing to invest enough money to create 4 million jobs? The entire problem could have been solved very easily but for geniuses like you.

Yes, TN delta farmers should look for diversifying away from Kaveri fed agriculture. This issue did not come up yesterday. It has been known for 100 years. It is sheer lunacy not to reduce this dependency over that time. Instead they only increased it.

KA has a obligation based on compassion and mutual affinity for their neighbors. Thats why you see what I suggested - a pairing up of villages for income sharing until a transition is accomplished. It will top your request for job training money from KA.

You can roll your eyes all you want, but then why should a farmer in KA (or any point upstream) watch water flow by only to be used by a farmer in TN (or any point downstream)? Just because he is already doing it? Just because he has been doing it for centuries?

mayurav wrote:

SwamyG wrote:There is an expectation that TN should wean away its farmers from agriculture. Is this practical? Is this a fair expectation?

Nice try at incorrect generalization!

Thanks for the compliments, I will take any

Seriously, Bade had earlier mentioned something along these too, when this topic was still being discussed in the nukkad.

bala i ranted off only because you said baseless things about people wanting to revert to tamil nadu. i never said anything about roads. you started speaking about antropology and language to make a point about roads. eod from my side.

source of the data.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauvery_Dispute

http://lawmin.nic.in/ncrwc/finalreport/v2b3-6.htm
http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/bcid/researc ... Paper3.pdf
http://www.austlii.edu.au/~andrew/Commo ... 1/305.html

mayurav wrote:We know that the tribunal is not beyond politics and pressures of the times. What does your heart and mind say? Is the tribunal award really fair?

Whose hearts and minds and such subjective nonsense? you may come up with one and i may come up another; fair according to whom. hearts and minds are not the issue; nor other criteria so often cited here like agriculture cropping patterns etc. Neither of us are experts on sharing water nor awards. The center tried various times with different political dispensations, different committee members at various times. none of this matters? The politician of the day comes up "heart and mind" decisions and incites the masses to go on a rampage. Respectfuly, please rethink about what you say.

the discussions here reminds me of afrcian wilds during dry summer, where the animals quest for water. When a herd of elephants come in, even a group of scariest lions gives ways.. but when the herd is slightly weakend, the cat group immediately chase away the thirsty few elephants. Its animal world fighting for water. The mightier you are, the better is your survival.. again, a large group of wild buffalows can chase the scary lions and elephants as well.

stength in unity speaks. looks like KA-TN is losing that unity from each side., cause both of them stand naked with flaws.

mayurav wrote: Yes, TN delta farmers should look for diversifying away from Kaveri fed agriculture. This issue did not come up yesterday. It has been known for 100 years. It is sheer lunacy not to reduce this dependency over that time. Instead they only increased it.

KA has a obligation based on compassion and mutual affinity for their neighbors. Thats why you see what I suggested - a pairing up of villages for income sharing until a transition is accomplished. It will top your request for job training money from KA.

You can roll your eyes all you want, but then why should a farmer in KA (or any point upstream) watch water flow by only to be used by a farmer in TN (or any point downstream)? Just because he is already doing it? Just because he has been doing it for centuries?

So its TN's fault that KA was not using the Kaveri waters all these years? Why were KA farmers watching the waters flow by? I don't want to say anything but your comments reek of sheer ignorance and jealousy. You don't have the means or necessity but you just don't want others to use it as well!

What's this about compassion and mutual affinity you keep referring to? Every state has a right to the waters of a river. This is exactly the kind of thought that has led us to where we are. If we go by your logic, TN is entitled to compensation for letting your river flow through TN and also for creating additional infrastructure like bridges and so on Why don't you just build a dam and keep all the waters to yourself It will save us a lot of trouble.

bala wrote:

mayurav wrote:We know that the tribunal is not beyond politics and pressures of the times. What does your heart and mind say? Is the tribunal award really fair?

Whose hearts and minds and such subjective nonsense? you may come up with one and i may come up another; fair according to whom. hearts and minds are not the issue; nor other criteria so often cited here like agriculture cropping patterns etc. Neither of us are experts on sharing water nor awards. The center tried various times with different political dispensations, different committee members at various times. none of this matters? The politician of the day comes up "heart and mind" decisions and incites the masses to go on a rampage. Respectfuly, please rethink about what you say.

It is your heart and mind. Do you think that the tribunal award is fair? I ask this because you said that people are pooh poohing tribunal award. Please answer the question instead of dancing all around it.

KarthikSan wrote:
So its TN's fault that KA was not using the Kaveri waters all these years? Why were KA farmers watching the waters flow by? I don't want to say anything but your comments reek of sheer ignorance and jealousy. You don't have the means or necessity but you just don't want others to use it as well!

Where did I say it is TNs fault? How does it matter for what reason KA farmers were watching it flow by? Maybe they were politically weak. Maybe they were plain lazy. Maybe they had other things to do. Maybe they lived in the stone age and did not know agriculture. (Edit: Btw, all these reasons have been put forward by Tamilians at various times). Now they want to use it. Maybe they saw TN farmers use it to create wealth. Just like you saw your neighbor get a job and got one yourself. Or India saw P5 get nukes and got some for itself. You can call it copying or jealousy or whatever, but the fact is they are entitled to use that water and if they use their fair share TN farmers will loose out on their historic disproportionate share. That is the bottom line.

The issue is TN is going to loose its historic disproportionate enjoyment of Kaveri waters whether they like it or not. How can it be made relatively painless? Thats where compassion and mutual affinity come in.

What's this about compassion and mutual affinity you keep referring to?

You may not understand that, but ask the farmers in the Thanjavur delta and they will be able to understand it.

Rye wrote:mayurav wrote:

Water grid is one way to redistribute the wealth and definitely one of the better ways.

Huh? What? Never mind. People who cannot differentiate between water management and socialist concepts of wealth distribution should be more leery of expressing their opinions.

Taking a part of the wealth (tax/royalty on Kaveri water) and using it to benefit people who don't have it or have less of it (somebody in Rajasthan through a canal from the Ganga) is redistribution.

Like the royalties GoI gets on minerals and uses it for common good. Like it imposes additional surcharge on petrol and uses it for NHDP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_redistribution

Forced transfer of wealth

Some methods for this are: warfare, slavery, taxation, inflation, government policies, or theft

I am just afraid that once the money reaches GoI or GoK the water grid may not be executed. But it is definitely a good idea.

mayurav wrote:

Taking a part of the wealth (tax/royalty on Kaveri water) and using it to benefit people who don't have it or have less of it (somebody in Rajasthan through a canal from the Ganga) is redistribution.

If the overall revenue outflows and inflows w.r.t. the water fund are balanced on a state by state basis in the long run, then what is being redistributed? Note that this could mean the money could be used to build desalination plants in one place, but used to build dams in another.

The bottleneck here is not wealth/money -- the availability of water resource and the type of water resource available would be more important.

Maybe combining various crucial developmental resources and forming a "trading" system between states to hand over excess resources in one arena to get some other resource that is in short supply would create a larger solution space.

If the GoI and GoK are going to be wasting the money (and I agree with you that this is the most probable end result) and not building the grid even when the crisis stares us in the face, India will break up in a few decades, guaranteed. Humans cannot last more than 4 days without water -- they can go for weeks without food... computes to nothing good if there is a real extreme water crisis.

Rye wrote:

Taking a part of the wealth (tax/royalty on Kaveri water) and using it to benefit people who don't have it or have less of it (somebody in Rajasthan through a canal from the Ganga) is redistribution.

If the overall inflow and outflow of water are balanced on a state by state basis in the long run, then what is being redistributed?

The bottleneck here is not wealth/money -- the availability of water resource and the type of water resource available would be more important.

I was talking about a tax on water usage to develop and maintain a national water grid. If an individual can use water for free today, but has to pay a tax tomorrow which will be used to provide water elsewhere I called that as redistribution. Wealth due to the availability of a resource in one place but not another place is being redistributed.

Definitely water must be made available all over the country for drinking and basic human activity. But do you think it should be made available for economic activity such as agriculture especially when manufacturing and services alternatives are available? Maybe it should. I have no strong answer one way or the other.

Rye wrote: If the GoI and GoK are going to be wasting the money (and I agree with you that this is the most probable end result) and not building the grid even when the crisis stares us in the face, India will break up in a few decades, guaranteed. Humans cannot last more than 4 days without water -- they can go for weeks without food... computes to nothing good if there is a real extreme water crisis.

I agree that a grid for drinking water should be built. Not sure for agriculture. And yes, I cannot let my fear of GoI and GoS gobbling money lead to inaction on that front.

mayurav wrote:

But do you think it should be made available for economic activity such as agriculture especially when manufacturing and services alternatives are available?

If that was the reality (i.e, manufacturing and services trump agriculture when it comes to water usage) would imply that there is no value to food security or that food security is guaranteed by other means. This planet is mostly water, and if abundant energy is available, salt water can be converted to fresh drinking water in coastal areas as a long-term solution.

Also, people should pay for the water and they can push that cost to the consumer. If water is not cheap, that has to be factored into what the consumer pays and the consumer has to feel the pinch if there is mismanagement of any of the sectors that cause these prices to move to extremes.


The bottomline is that the solution does not lie in more politics of the kind we are witnessing and will probably continue to witness.

Rye wrote:mayurav wrote:

But do you think it should be made available for economic activity such as agriculture especially when manufacturing and services alternatives are available?

If that was the reality (i.e, manufacturing and services trump agriculture when it comes to water usage) would imply that there is no value to food security or that food security is guaranteed by other means. This planet is mostly water, and if abundant energy is available, salt water can be converted to fresh drinking water in coastal areas as a long-term solution.

I think you mis-understood me. I meant if in an arid area, there is a possibility of manufacturing and services based economy, then there may not be a need to provide water from elsewhere through a grid for agricultural purposes.

Do you think that the tribunal award is fair?

Why does it matter whether it is fair or not according to you or me? Both KA and TN claim it is not fair. Hence the riots and rhetoric. I just did a rough calc based on ratios and the water award falls short for KA by 5% or so but I don't have all the data. This could be due to the historical usage which needs to be re-evaluated in modern times and many are arguing for such re-evaluation. I frankly don't know whether it is fair/just. The recent project in Hogenekal for drinking water should not be stopped because it is for drinking; if it used for agriculture I say no. All agriculture projects in India are sink holes for corruption; the net effective area for agriculture has not changed over the last 30yrs; they increase one area while another area dries up. The agriculture sector is the most lagging; we are not close to world standards on yields / acre. All irrigation schemes announced are politically made to grease the pockets of politicians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaveri_River_Water_Dispute

FAIR ?

Hi

Check this site to understand what happened in the past during the interaction between KA and TN.

[url]http://www.hindu.com/2008/04/05/stories ... 820100.htm[/url]

Regards

Pras

prasadha wrote: Check this site to understand what happened in the past during the interaction between KA and TN.

The Interim Award and the Final Award differ in some ways. One of the main differences is the place where the measurement is taken. The Final Award has made it clear that it will be Biligundulu within the KA border.

Clause 14 also states that any water taken by a State within its borders will be from the allocation already awarded and cannot form a basis for a new claim.

Further Clause 18 vests absolute powers to a State to manage the waters within the allocations in whatever way it deems fit without any reference to anything else.

In the 16 years from 1991-92 to 2006-07, the water flow measured at Biligundlu has been in excess of the Final Award on 14 occassions. Only in two years, 2002-03 & 2003-04, were the measurements way below the allocation.

Now Karunanidhi says he will wait till an elected government comes to power and he holds discussions. This wisdom should have dawned on him before. He should have taken KA into confidence before announcing the scheme. As usual, he jumped the gun and shot his loud mouth off.

Also, SM Krishna now says he will take the matter to Supreme Court. He is fooling his people by not telling them that TN has every right to implement this water supply scheme. He already created an impression that it was MK's big mouth that inflamed passions in KA when the truth is otherwise. Again, SM Krishna defied SC's orders in 2002 but now claims his faith in the SC ?

Concept of 'equitable apportionment' cannot happen in an environment of mistrust and hatred. Unfortunately, that's exactly what these politicians and hate-monger groups on both sides are indulging in. Most of those who air their views on the TV, Press etc are doing so without even having an iota of knowledge about the issues involved.

The Hoganekkal issue is a non-issue actually.

I think that these riparian conflicts are politics of scarcity. I do believe that with better RWH by recreating the ancient "eri" interlinked canal and pondage system in both KA and TN will be able to solve both states water problems. Create more water in the basin and these problems will automatically vanish.

I have always thought that river water is not a resource but more an indicator of the health of the river basin, it should ideally be fed by robust underground aquifers that is constantly charged via RWH schemes in the basin area. The dams and other apparatii should be solely used to create electricity and excess storage for repumping to RWH pondages in times of scarcity.

Will there be a central monitoring station at Hogannekal to monitor TN's usage? The amount of water that TN draws at Hogannekal has to be counted while releasing water to TN.

More on the political circus.

No need to approach Supreme Court now, says Krishna

Bangalore (PTI): Former Karnataka Chief Minister S M Krishna on Saturday welcomed Tamil Nadu's decision to put on hold the Hogenakkal drinking water project till a new government assumes office in Karnataka. "An issue, which will have inter-state implications, has to be settled across the table through talks. Hence the statement of Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M Karunanidhi to put the project on hold is very welcome", Krishna, who is in-charge of Congress's Election Management in Karantaka, told reporters here.

Krishna said he had a discussion with Karunanidhi after the latter made remarks about the water project.

He, however, refused to react to Tamil superstar Rajnikant's reported remarks blaming him and other political leaders for the controversy. "I don't want to comment. Rajnikant has to do some introspection on his statement now," he said.

Former Karnataka Deputy Chief Minister Siddaramaiah also described it as a "welcome development".

Krishna said he had no plans to seek legal intervention on the project. "There is no need for approaching Supreme Court now, in the light of Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M Karunandihi deciding to put the project on hold", Krishna told PTI here.

After a popular government assumed office in Karnataka the issue could be resolved through dailogue, Krishna, a former Chief Minister, said.

Some pics of Hogenekal falls

RaviBg wrote:Will there be a central monitoring station at Hogannekal to monitor TN's usage? The amount of water that TN draws at Hogannekal has to be counted while releasing water to TN.

Ravi, the Hoganekkal Drinking Water Scheme from Cauvery is just similar to the Bangalore Scheme from the same river in as far as tapping the waters from this disputed river for non-agri use are concerned. The quantum of water so tapped in both these schemes is from within the allocations to the State. Read my post earlier on the provisions of the Final Award. There is no need for any monitoring station at Hogannekal as the water flow is measured at Biligundlu further upstream within KA borders. KA shouldn't care as to what TN does with the 192 tmcft of water it releases. Similarly, TN shouldn't care what Pondicherry does with the 7 tmcft of water it is supposed to release. IMO, the delay in the notification of the Final Award and its implementation is unacceptable.

[quote]Final award may leave Bangalore parched
http://www.deccanherald.com/Archives/Fe ... 200729.asp

Bangalore may become uninhabitable in not-so-distant future, unless Karnataka farmers from the Cauvery basin area spare some water from their share for the burgeoning population here.

Sample this: the Cauvery Water Disputes Tribunal has in its final order concluded that two-thirds of the State capital are not entitled to Cauvery water. The reason: two-thirds of the City lie outside the Cauvery basin area in Karnataka.

The tribunal, thus, took into consideration the drinking water requirement of only one-third of Bangalore. The quantity of water allotted: 0.87 tmc ft.

Actually, 0.87 TMC is the gross drinking water allocation made by the tribunal for one-third of Bangalore and other cities and towns of Karnataka falling within the basin area. {hoggenkal 1.4tmc}

“Since two-thirds of Bangalore City lie outside the basin, we are considering the drinking water requirement of Bangalore City for its portion of that area which lies within the Cauvery basin…â€

As long as Indian politics is regional based, there will always be trouble just under the surface waiting to be exploited by "Local Idiots" or "external beasts".

India does not need this bull$hit. Whats up with Indians? Just when the economy is moving along smoothly and investments coming in steadily some idiot somewhere decided to stir the pond to mess up the whole thing? This economic development is a fragile thing especially in a country that has miserable infrastructure situation. There is a potential recession looming in the air. There are financial institution failures in the west. People in Western Europe and North America who form the biggest consumer market in the world may have less money to spend in the near future that could cause slow down in demands for Indian goods and services. It may also slow down investments coming in from outside. This should be time for Indian unity in face of certain crisis. India does not need that Thackery idiot stirring up North Indian-SouthIndian trouble in Bombay nor this river water thingy in the south.

Indian politicians owe it to the many millions still outside the economic windfall. Whats up guys? Why this tendency to shoot the foot just when things are looking good? Is it part of the Indian DNA?

May be political reform is the solution. May be India needs a direct presidential election instead of a myriad of local/regional idiots doing political horse trading in the corridors of power in Delhi. Too much regionalism and very little nationalism. Is that what it is? A serious lack of nationalism?
Avram

SSridhar wrote: Concept of 'equitable apportionment' cannot happen in an environment of mistrust and hatred.

True, but as the award stands, it is NOT equitable. The least the tribunal could have done is come with a mechanism for progressive increase in KAs share and decrease in TNs share over say a period of 25 years, so that the Thanjavur delta can diversify away from Kaveri intensive agriculture.

Trust cannot be created until TN realizes that its disproportionate enjoyment of Kaveri waters cannot be sustained. This injustice will make KA protest and the situation will keep simmering. Such a situation will only sustain politicos etc. who will make wrong use of this injustice.

asprinzl wrote:As long as Indian politics is regional based, there will always be trouble just under the surface waiting to be exploited by "Local Idiots" or "external beasts".

India does not need this bull$hit. Whats up with Indians? Just when the economy is moving along smoothly and investments coming in steadily some idiot somewhere decided to stir the pond to mess up the whole thing? This economic development is a fragile thing especially in a country that has miserable infrastructure situation. There is a potential recession looming in the air. There are financial institution failures in the west. People in Western Europe and North America who form the biggest consumer market in the world may have less money to spend in the near future that could cause slow down in demands for Indian goods and services. It may also slow down investments coming in from outside. This should be time for Indian unity in face of certain crisis. India does not need that Thackery idiot stirring up North Indian-SouthIndian trouble in Bombay nor this river water thingy in the south.

Indian politicians owe it to the many millions still outside the economic windfall. Whats up guys? Why this tendency to shoot the foot just when things are looking good? Is it part of the Indian DNA?

May be political reform is the solution. May be India needs a direct presidential election instead of a myriad of local/regional idiots doing political horse trading in the corridors of power in Delhi. Too much regionalism and very little nationalism. Is that what it is? A serious lack of nationalism?
Avram

The sky is not falling and India is not falling apart. People argue, quarrel over river water across all races and nationalities. We appreciate your concern, but disapprove your reading of the situation and its implications.

mayurav wrote: True, but as the award stands, it is NOT equitable.

Mayurav, the trick is in defining what is 'equitable'. Unfortunately, there is no quantifiable definition of it. Modern water sharing agreements are devised on the so called "Helsinki Principles" which call for management in a basin-wide context with full participation of all stakeholders and under good governance. It is impossible to define these terms satisfactorily. They will remain subjective and prone to different interpretations. The success or failure will depend upon the interpretation of these terms. That's why a conducive environment is important. In the present case, the direct stakeholders have been eclipsed by indirect stakeholders like politicians and film personalities.

The earlier water sharing doctrine, called the Harmon Doctrine, under which "Every nation can utilize the waters of an international river flowing on its territory, as it likes, regardless the consequences in other countries and without the duty to consult" has no support today. The contrary theory that the "lower riparian can demand anything from the upper riparian who is duty bound to oblige" is also unacceptable. Essentially, nobody can claim ownership of trans-border water-bodies. The Helsinki Principles further state that no state can cause significant harm to other basin states and to the environment. Again, what is 'significant harm' is difficult to be defined. The Helsinki Rules codified 11 factors for sharing of waters such as population, extent of agriculture, usage of water such as drinking or industrial etc. Anyway, these form the basis of the 1997 UN Convention on Water Bodies.

In the Indus River agreement, India, the upper riparian state agreed for a share of 33 Million Acre Feet (MAF) for herself while it gave TSP 142 MAF. Best legal luminaries and irrigation and hydrology experts were involved from the Indian side in discussions that lasted eight years. Mind you, this was not something that was forced down India's throat. The initial Indian plan itself suggested only 29 MAF for herself. By the time the discussions started in 1952, India and TSP had already become implacable enemies.

sure sridhar, but atleast basic statistics must be relevant no? how did they come up with an award dated 2007 based on 1991 census figures?

SSridhar wrote:

mayurav wrote: True, but as the award stands, it is NOT equitable.

Mayurav, the trick is in defining what is 'equitable'. Unfortunately, there is no quantifiable definition of it. Modern water sharing agreements are devised on the so called "Helsinki Principles" which call for management in a basin-wide context with full participation of all stakeholders and under good governance. It is impossible to define these terms satisfactorily. They will remain subjective and prone to different interpretations. The success or failure will depend upon the interpretation of these terms. That's why a conducive environment is important. In the present case, the direct stakeholders have been eclipsed by indirect stakeholders like politicians and film personalities.

I agree that the trick is defining equitable. Let us see how equitable the award is.

Going with TN's numbers itself KA contributes 390 units and gets to use only 270. Whereas TN contributes 220 units and gets to use 420 units. Even if excess of KL (25 units) is allowed to go to TN the total available excluding KL is 390+220+25 = 635. Even if it was a 50-50 division KA should have got 320 units and TN 320 units.

So this means KA should release around 100 units annually. This is what I deem fair. KA is not saying it will release 0. This would have been more equitable.

The earlier water sharing doctrine, called the Harmon Doctrine, under which "Every nation can utilize the waters of an international river flowing on its territory, as it likes, regardless the consequences in other countries and without the duty to consult" has no support today. The contrary theory that the "lower riparian can demand anything from the upper riparian who is duty bound to oblige" is also unacceptable. Essentially, nobody can claim ownership of trans-border water-bodies. The Helsinki Principles further state that no state can cause significant harm to other basin states and to the environment. Again, what is 'significant harm' is difficult to be defined. The Helsinki Rules codified 11 factors for sharing of waters such as population, extent of agriculture, usage of water such as drinking or industrial etc. Anyway, these form the basis of the 1997 UN Convention on Water Bodies.

Thanks for the history. KA is not saying it will release 0 and use all the water from its basin. Forcing it to release unfair amount of 180 units which is close to 50% of what it contributes is plain UNFAIR.

What do you think? Don't give Bala's answer that it does not matter what you think etc. etc. You are participating in the discussion about the issue and it will be useful to know what you think and the reasons you have to believe that the award is fair.

In the Indus River agreement, India, the upper riparian state agreed for a share of 33 Million Acre Feet (MAF) for herself while it gave TSP 142 MAF. Best legal luminaries and irrigation and hydrology experts were involved from the Indian side in discussions that lasted eight years. Mind you, this was not something that was forced down India's throat. The initial Indian plan itself suggested only 29 MAF for herself. By the time the discussions started in 1952, India and TSP had already become implacable enemies.

But saar, what is the Indian basin's contribution to the river? Please tell. We got three eastern rivers plus small part of western ones.

mayurav wrote:Don't give Bala's answer that it does not matter what you think etc.

Excuse me Mayurav, I don't need to answer any of your questions, and let us not make this a personal issue. I am not an expert on water sharing and neither are you. Jurys have their data and they have experts on the subject. Every time the Cauvery Tribunal came up with a verdict neither side quite liked it citing all kinds of reasons. This is the nature of beast. We don't have all the data points about what sharing is all about, just picking a number from a table is not the whole picture, i am sure there were other criteria besides "bias". These committees are constituted by the center with people who have nothing to do with either state in the dispute. They are "experts" better than you or me.

mayurav wrote:

asprinzl wrote:As long as Indian politics is regional based, there will always be trouble just under the surface waiting to be exploited by "Local Idiots" or "external beasts".

India does not need this bull$hit. Whats up with Indians? Just when the economy is moving along smoothly and investments coming in steadily some idiot somewhere decided to stir the pond to mess up the whole thing? This economic development is a fragile thing especially in a country that has miserable infrastructure situation. There is a potential recession looming in the air. There are financial institution failures in the west. People in Western Europe and North America who form the biggest consumer market in the world may have less money to spend in the near future that could cause slow down in demands for Indian goods and services. It may also slow down investments coming in from outside. This should be time for Indian unity in face of certain crisis. India does not need that Thackery idiot stirring up North Indian-SouthIndian trouble in Bombay nor this river water thingy in the south.

Indian politicians owe it to the many millions still outside the economic windfall. Whats up guys? Why this tendency to shoot the foot just when things are looking good? Is it part of the Indian DNA?

May be political reform is the solution. May be India needs a direct presidential election instead of a myriad of local/regional idiots doing political horse trading in the corridors of power in Delhi. Too much regionalism and very little nationalism. Is that what it is? A serious lack of nationalism?
Avram

The sky is not falling and India is not falling apart. People argue, quarrel over river water across all races and nationalities. We appreciate your concern, but disapprove your reading of the situation and its implications.

Well said Mayurav!!! Politics is local, local and local. Even in USA where people think the national issue based politics rules, the issues are never settled one way or the other; they always find ways to come into national limelight and make the elections as laughable as anywhere else in the world. India is not like a small Israel; there is lots of diversity and we all have our rich history. If USA can tout federalism via more power to State, then our states are our way of giving different regions importance and independence.

A Presidential system is not going to solve any of these issues. It is not going to solve Evanjihadism nor trouble from Maoists.