Indian Education System

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Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Stan_Savljevic »


(Honestly I don;t have the statistics, and not even interested in exact numbers, you can find it out easily - I am sure it exists many places. I am not interested in exact stat because it does not matter to me. If I or my kids want to take part in these competition, they would take part if they find if fun.. else not)

Boss, is nt that the primary issue here? We are going from a few examples to one of public policy that could have a significant impact given that we {as in India} have limited resources to expend.

Let me reiterate: I am all for Gaussian tail cultivation. But what fraction of IMO corresponds to G tail in terms of fundamental res? I think it is small enough, from what I have seen. Unless there is data, and data in the Indian context, I dont see all the hullabaloo behind IMO is great yada yada. We need a metric, that is Indic enough and global enough, so that the conversion rate from catch-em-young to My-god-is-he-the-one is high. I am certain that JEE aint that. I also have a feeling that IMO aint that.

Remember, we are still trying to stand up. The fraction we allocate for each segment should be optimized, more so than it may be for china or us. The diff segments are: 1) primary education, 2) basic anglais speaking call-center education, 3) basic industrial jobs, 4) high-tech industrial + non-researchy jobs, 5) researchy jobs + laal-prifasar education
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Amber G. »

Boss, is nt that the primary issue here? We are going from a few examples to one of public policy that could have a significant impact given that we {as in India} have limited resources to expend.
Boss, Honestly NO, that is, as far as I am concerned, I doi not have time or interest or ability to engage with you (generic you) in a serious debate to change the public policy of India wrt to resources needed and impact etc..

As I said, I do not agree with your bold statement that there is no (or very little) correlation between IMO type competition and fundamental research. (It seem you based it on some 3 people you know etc..but did not even bother to look or find the statistics which, i believe very easily available). In fact I am quite convinced that there is a VERY significant correlation...(In my opinion, of course)

Now am I going to present the statistics good enough to convince you.? I do not even know, (or honestly care enough to find the details about exactly what kind of data you need) what it will take it to convince you, Thats why my suggestion that you can look/find out the statistics yourself, if you so desire.

It may help to find out why good schools here would give a very high priority to scores in usamo/imo. It is reasonable to assume that there is a high correlation.

It may also help to look at the data, why so many brilliant math professor/ scientists enjoyed taking part in IMO and similar type of exams.

Hope that helps. Sorry if we are taking about different things.. it is that time of night when I do not read everything.. :)
Unless there is data, and data in the Indian context, I donot see all the hullabaloo behind IMO is great yada yada.
Yes there is quite bit of data, IMO but it is not others responsibility to make you see it, specially if you are convinced that there is no data.... It would be different, and indeed a very reasonable question, If, say you were educational minister, and you were asking your advisers..:) ... and as I said it is rather late :)
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by sanjaykumar »

So two Indians out of a million in the US make it to the IOD and do better than the 5 out of 1.1 billion Indians in India. Am I the only one who sees something terribly wrong here? Or can it be excused on the grounds of the poverty in rural India? (Black rural poverty in the US does not preclude American achievement). And perhaps fact that USSR is dead and its chess champion selection stands somehow invalidated?

BTW, Stan your allusion to JEE escapes me completely (not javing done my edu in India).

And where is the Westinghouse/Intel support for bright and ambitious young Indians? Where is the X-prize, the MacArthur fellowships? GOI perhaps has other priorities, what are the priorities of Infosys, Mital (who is very much Indian), Singhania?

If China and USSR do/did produce results, maybe GOI should admit to itself that it might be useful to look for clues there.
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by vera_k »

At the risk of repeating myself, improvement in India's performance at the IMO depends solely on selling the value of the IMO to students and parents. As it stands today not many participate because the returns from participating are not very obvious. The IMO has to compete for attention within India with the NTSE, IIT-JEE and other competitive exams that have an obvious relationship to the future career prospects of the student.

This is anecdotal and a bit dated, but even in 1992 the Bhaskaracharya Pratisthan was trying to generate interest among students appearing for the NTSE nationals, but the response was underwhelming to say the least.
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by vina »

sanjaykumar wrote:So two Indians out of a million in the US make it to the IOD and do better than the 5 out of 1.1 billion Indians in India. Am I the only one who sees something terribly wrong here? Or can it be excused on the grounds of the poverty in rural India? (Black rural poverty in the US does not preclude American achievement). And perhaps fact that USSR is dead and its chess champion selection stands somehow invalidated?

BTW, Stan your allusion to JEE escapes me completely (not javing done my edu in India).

And where is the Westinghouse/Intel support for bright and ambitious young Indians? Where is the X-prize, the MacArthur fellowships? GOI perhaps has other priorities, what are the priorities of Infosys, Mital (who is very much Indian), Singhania?

If China and USSR do/did produce results, maybe GOI should admit to itself that it might be useful to look for clues there.
Sanjay, I have to agree with the stuff that Stan, Vera_K etc are posting here. Look at the countries that did well in the IMO. Countries like China, US, Russia , Iran , Thailand (a big surprise there) and I would suspect that those countries have focused coaching /training/catch them you and groom them kind of programs.

The scene in India is very different . Let me tell you my personal experience. When I was in my 9th grade, my school teacher asked me to come over on a weekend and write a "Test" . I had no idea what it was about and it is only when writing that "test", I read the thing of NTSE (national talent search ) .. And in my 11th grade, my class teacher asked me to write some "exam being conducted by some Physics Teachers " and something about some "Math Olympics" . I actually topped the state (I came to know later during the 2nd round and so on) in the "Physics Teacher's exam" and I was asked to write "further exams for the Math "olympics" (I didnt make it during the final rounds to make it)..

Point is I just walked in and took those tests without any preparation whatsoever and did decently. I had no idea what any of those things were and frankly even if I did, I could not have been bothered more. Amber G, tells us that folks from MIT, Princeton, Stanford etc.. etc.. would swoop down on you and pick you up with full scholarship if you did so in the US. Well, in India , I wouldn't have been able to get into a BSc Math program in a local community college if I did not do well in the state board /local exams , even if I won a gold medal in the Olympiad .Well, I might if I were a "backward caste" or "scheduled caste" or "minority" , which I unfortunately am not.

I really didn't think I had much of a future. My dad thought that the best bet for me was to be a typist or a stenographer in a local bank. So I actually went for typing classes in my 9th grade vacation. .There used to be "type writing centers" all around and I went and banged out letters and typings on old Remingtons and developed "enough speed and accuracy" to pass the type writing exams. In fact, my typing speed is great. That is how I can belt out these long long posts in BR in a twinkle.

IIT JEE was a life saver for me. The state exam system is basically tilted against folks like me. So if werent for the IIT system, I probably would have ended up as a clerk in some public sector bank or as a typist/clerk in some govt office and been belting out govt letters for the big shot babus and whatever .But hey.. who knows ? I would have had tons of time on my hand that could have been spent on endless chai /kapi sessions and gossip or maybe even contemplating on profound things like math.. yeah.. Albert Einstein and Ramanujam were clerks in the patent office and Auditor General's office and they contemplated on really profound things.. Chances of my being another Ramanujam would have been very remote indeed and chances are that if at all I contemplated anything, it would have been chai biscoot and how to type not more than 1 letter a day and demand speed money!.

Bottomline.. these things are nice to do, but would not put food on table or even open doors for you in the way current day India's education and industry systems are structured. Unless that is fixed nothing much is going to happen . And given that, I think India's performance over the years has been remarkable indeed and driven more by raw talent than anything else. However raw talent can only get you that far and the distance it has taken us has actually been quite amazing.
sanjaykumar
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by sanjaykumar »

Thanks, I think I am begining to understand.

I hope I will be in a position to contribute to developing India's human resources so that excellence is nurtured. This must be a priority for Indians settled abroad.
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Rahul M »

I really didn't think I had much of a future. My dad thought that the best bet for me was to be a typist or a stenographer in a local bank. So I actually went for typing classes in my 9th grade vacation. .There used to be "type writing centers" all around and I went and banged out letters and typings on old Remingtons and developed "enough speed and accuracy" to pass the type writing exams. In fact, my typing speed is great. That is how I can belt out these long long posts in BR in a twinkle.
:shock:
:lol: :lol:

anyway, what struck me when I read the biography of ramanujan is how close we were to losing him. the fact remains that we are no closer to nurturing skewed talent now than we were then. his whole story is one of chance and luck in spite of his tremendous abilities. anybody with a little less talent and drive than ramanujan would fall out much before the finish line.
who knows how many ramanujans are getting lost everyday in this country ! :(
Singha
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Singha »

some of my CSE classmates in NIT-Wgl(91) had indeed taken typing lessons
in the summer before joining college. they had been told by various people
that it would help them...some of them were 10 finger touch typists and
really ripped it on the soft keyboards compared to typewriters when
writing documents. one fellow even claimed he took CSE because his
friend told him girls really dug cse guys :rotfl:

back then using a PC was a high point of a mans life. the junior rabble like
us were sent to slave on HCL/PCL minicops with shared vt100 terminals.
in 3rd yr were actually allowed to "see" the famous PC-AT/PC-XT and use
them in 4th yr. finally it was possible to play wolfenstein and a few other
games.

now a kid in nursery starts out with a core2 duo and a 19" WS without
even asking.
Nayak
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Nayak »

Apologies for being off-topic.

In the olden days of despair and license raj, I also wondered if I would end up as a 2nd division clerk or typist. Infact I joined typing classes (got state rank too), to prepare myself for the drudgery.

Also Bank exams and Railway board exams were a in-thing, luckily for me, NIIT came, wonderstruck with AC environment, 14 " beautiful monitors, cool and hip faculty, I forced my dad to sponsor my studies

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Compared to ribbon stained fingers, callous hands, a grumpy old man correcting my typing sheets for mistakes, waiting in queue with unwashed abduls to use the $hitty remington, NIIT was heaven.

I thank allah everyday that I am not in a sarkaari position, chewing paan, taking notes in shorthand, typing out challans, looking forward to my next 'cut' under the table.
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Singha »

actually being an officer in PSU bank or RBI is not a bad gig. RBI has the
addl advantage of being only in state capitals, so access to good infra is assumed. and you are out of the retail banking hassles. benefits are generous.

it was my 2nd option had I not cleared engineering. only thing was I would
have had to enroll 3 yrs minimum Bsc in DU.

I was never really keen on trying Mba and 'worrying how to make money every waking hour' so the saying went.

best job for me is a well paid librarian in some vast univ library. free at last
to explore every area of knowledge, meticulously file and organize things,
and mostly the place is empty with nobody to bug you.
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by vina »

Nayak wrote:Apologies for being off-topic.

In the olden days of despair and license raj, I also wondered if I would end up as a 2nd division clerk or typist. Infact I joined typing classes (got state rank too), to prepare myself for the drudgery.
My goodness . I never realized that they had state ranks for that kind of stuff. I didnt take the exam. I rebelled and decided that I would make myself into something better than a sarkari clerk and did things like play cricket :rotfl: :rotfl: . Gosh how naive I was. Luckily I sort of got my wits back together by 11th grade and started preparing for the JEE.
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by vina »

Nayak wrote:Also Bank exams and Railway board exams were a in-thing, luckily for me, NIIT came, wonderstruck with AC environment, 14 " beautiful monitors, cool and hip faculty, I forced my dad to sponsor my studies

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Compared to ribbon stained fingers, callous hands, a grumpy old man correcting my typing sheets for mistakes, waiting in queue with unwashed abduls to use the $hitty remington, NIIT was heaven.

I thank allah everyday that I am not in a sarkaari position, chewing paan, taking notes in shorthand, typing out challans, looking forward to my next 'cut' under the table.
Ah.. You product of a decadent "private" place like NIIT (you are supposed to turn your nose up at places like those..it was always more noble to bang away on the Remingtons. You were intimately involved in the process of ultimately realizing socialism that way) , how dare you talk up to a hallowed place like the JNU and the Planning Commission and ISI/DSE.. Didn't you know that we had Cambridge and Oxford educated "intellectuals" who had actually decided that what you were meant to be was a clerk . and you rebel ? .. Who has a PhD ? You or them ? . Who is smarter..the Amartya Sens, the Mahlanobis, the "eminent" men of the Planning Commission, the JNU types like Prabhat Patnaik, CP Chandrasekhar, Utsa Patnaik and their ilks. Your destiny was to be a clerk and to be represented by the likes of Messrs Barthan or the CITU affliated unions.. And you dare rebel ?.

The dilli billis had your station in life fixed for you, you damned moffusil /peripheral pip squeak (while their kids went to Oxbridge of course)

Its funny now.. Since folks like us really rebelled, now the dilli billis are to use their "own term" declasse .. No more does the Oxbridge/ LSE degree (oh.. babu has a degree for vilayat /lundhun have the same cachet) and while they could earlier talk down to you in a faux brit acccent to the unwashed abduls like us, now it is the other way around. Now with all the Noo Yawk, banking, consulting bullsh*t and the east coast Ivy League cachet and accent (I am just about getting back to speaking Indian English after coming back.. ) and the rest of that garbage, it is the dilli billis and their staccato accented English who come across as country cousins from the boonies..How much ever the Dilli billis on media like the types of NTDV and Rajdeep Sardesai and his wife's TV channel push it across as "Standard" , we know better !. Now the billis end up speaking broken /billi english bast***ized Hindi as a poor subsitute and that comes across so ridiculously.. A Tamil Dilli Billi cant speak a proper sentence in Tamil in most cases and any UP/Bihar /MP/Anywhere kind of guy would kick their butts in Hindi and can actually communicate in Hindi and make speeches to an audience.. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by R_Kumar »

I think in those days, JEE (IIT) was the best way to get out of job uncertainty.
Nayak wrote:Apologies for being off-topic.

In the olden days of despair and license raj, I also wondered if I would end up as a 2nd division clerk or typist. Infact I joined typing classes (got state rank too), to prepare myself for the drudgery.
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by vina »

R_Kumar wrote:I think in those days, JEE (IIT) was the best way to get out of job uncertainty.
Nayak wrote:Apologies for being off-topic.

In the olden days of despair and license raj, I also wondered if I would end up as a 2nd division clerk or typist. Infact I joined typing classes (got state rank too), to prepare myself for the drudgery.
Dude.. IIT JEE best way to get out of job uncertainty? .. That has to be a massive joke. With 1500 places and population running into hundreds of millions, there is a chance that you might have better luck in hitting a jackpot in Las Vegas!.

The best way was the typing/stenographer/petty babu/clerk kind of thing . The entire system was geared to generate massive amounts of those kinds of jobs.
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Nayak »

The biggest worry my folks had was me running around with a file attending zillion interviews and getting rejected (speaks tons about the confidence they had in me).

So my dad always kicked my a$$ in getting my basics right by getting a good degree + typing + shorthand + influence and get me a job in some desolate sarkaari office.

Not everybody could become an engineer, the odds of one actually scoring a seat through JEE? fuggadaboutit. I actually hated engineering and drifted off to commerce, I thought it was better than Arts (chicks from well to do families and failures/rejects joined arts).

Commerce was okay, I actually enjoyed accounting. Figured I can be a good baboo (penny pincher) worrying about my chai-pani budget.

The only commerce background graduate who cleared NIIT with all the engineering brats nipping at my heels.

:D
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by R_Kumar »

At least for me it looked easier comparing to other options. That time in my state, handsome amount of bribe and good connections needed to get even a peon job. My parent had neither of them.
I have seen millions of people applying for few 100 Darogas jobs.
In 94, around 100,000 students appeared for 2,200 seats in JEE. So if you just consider number of applications per available seat, then there were many selection exams at that time that would have beaten JEE.

vina wrote:
R_Kumar wrote:I think in those days, JEE (IIT) was the best way to get out of job uncertainty.
Dude.. IIT JEE best way to get out of job uncertainty? .. That has to be a massive joke. With 1500 places and population running into hundreds of millions, there is a chance that you might have better luck in hitting a jackpot in Las Vegas!.

The best way was the typing/stenographer/petty babu/clerk kind of thing . The entire system was geared to generate massive amounts of those kinds of jobs.
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by shaardula »

edit
Last edited by Suraj on 22 Jul 2008 05:46, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Deleted subsequent posts on user's request
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by G Subramaniam »

There is a very good reason for the mediocre performance ( its not too bad, just middling )
of India in these olympiads

China, Russia etc, have a well organised grooming system, so even if it does not work out for a kid in this field, they will have as a backup, an admission to a good college

Not so for india
They have to spend several months on this and in addition prepare for JEE and board exams

Next, who wants to do math
The first tier want to do engineering
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by shaardula »

My basic diagnosis is this: We have an woefully inadequate ecosystem to sustain outlier research because we have a disastrously inadequate ecosystem to sustain middle ground research.

we have been debating
#1. vocational education (however esoteric)
#2. seminal knowledge generation and education that can seed that.

Between these two extreme positions, there is a huge chunk of research in the middle, which is the life force of outlier research. This is crucial because it sustains an ecosystem, which adds a certain amount of glamour and viability for the entire field called as research. Not everybody gets tenure at MIT and not every path breaking research comes from MIT.

The Americans have a wide research curve. A huge area under this curve constitutes the 'middle' research, which is relatively low risk and yet high production and high $$$ impact research. The US has an entire ecosystem to sustain this middle research which mostly produces middle of the ground non-seminal and yet copious and thus impactful research. This, in turn, sustains outlier research. What do we have as an answer for that?

There are pockets of excellence in India - IISc & national labs that are focussed at outlier research. The IITs rarely figure in this scheme of affairs.

But there is a huge gaping hole in the middle research area. Atleast in my field, middle research is mostly represented by the ultra low risk industrial research, which is mostly getting filled by (IIT/non-IIT)rebounds from US. (Industrial research is lower in risk when compared to middle research that I am talking about.)

But interestingly, post 2000 I see that there are some slight movements in some schools - IIT and non-IIT towards middle research. In my area, some very nice papers have come from "private colleges". Now these maynot be ground breaking, but they are good progress and analysis type papers. A good US professor would churn out one such paper per year, these guys have a longer gestation period.

Some schools have also started talking about seed money and research grants and centers of excellence. Interesting developments these. Though most is geared towards industrial research funded by industries. This will sooner rather than later hit a wall. The middle ground research in the US is mostly funded by government. Between the NSF, the ONR and the NIH etc., US govt agencies pump in a huge huge volume of money into that ecosystem.

I dunno if money is really a problem in India, especially for IITs and govt engg schools. Because it appears that a lot of money is spent in funding that education. This is really wasted money. I bet almost all at IIT come from backgrounds where they can pay more for that education. Take that money out of education funds and use it for funding research at the same institute. I guess.
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by shaardula »

Poor facilities and resources for math and reading skills in primary schools outside cities and govt schools within them.
Math Olympics.

related?
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

shaardula wrote: I dunno if money is really a problem in India, especially for IITs and govt engg schools. Because it appears that a lot of money is spent in funding that education. This is really wasted money. I bet almost all at IIT come from backgrounds where they can pay more for that education. Take that money out of education funds and use it for funding research at the same institute. I guess.

A few questions: Any idea how much a general category IIT undergrad pays for education these days? Any idea as to how much % of the received education is being underwritten by the GoI?! IOW: Is the GoI subsidizing students, and if so to what amount?
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by shaardula »

IITM page says 2008-2009 Hostellers:34929 pa. Day Scholars: 31600 pa.

The base fees 25,000 has been increased to 50,000 apparently.

i dont know. this 2003 article (The Hindu) says...
III. Subsidies, accessibility, and educational priorities
The IIT student is typically male and hails from a middle class background. One of the biggest achievements of the IITs is that they have provided world-class education at a cost relatively affordable to the average middle class family. Without government funding of these "institutions of national importance,'' most IIT students would probably not have been able to afford such high quality education. The generous subsidies given to the IITs have also allowed them to attract students from all over India.

As early as 1946, the Sarkar Committee recognised that international standards of education could only be achieved at costs commensurate with international levels and suggested that the government, the institution, and the student share the educational cost. Prior to 1993, the government funded a large proportion of each student's cost but decreased government funding has resulted in increasing cost to the student. However, by international standards, the cost of an IIT education still continues to be a bargain to the student. Currently the tuition, room and board for a four-year B.Tech course at IIT is estimated to cost a student Rs.70, 000 a year and at a conversion rate of 48 rupees to one U.S. dollar, this works out to $1458.33. By contrast, tuition, room and board costs for an undergraduate at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology for the academic year 2002-2003 amounted approximately to $36, 030. An Indian Express article (August 30, 1999) stated that IIT Bombay spent approximately Rs.125,000 per undergraduate student, which amounted to Rs.500,000 for a four-year course. At that time, the article suggested, an IIT Bombay undergraduate was paying an annual fee of Rs.38,500.

Compared with the cost of an MIT undergraduate education, IIT costs are small change. Informed observers such as P.V. Indiresan have suggested that the typical IIT student is in need of more financial assistance than the typical MIT undergraduate since the cost per year of MIT undergraduate education is almost equal to the current U.S. per capita income while the cost of an IIT education works out to much higher than the level of India's per capita income. However, it needs to be noted that the total cost of an IIT education is far less than the amount an IIT graduate who works abroad can expect to earn within months.

The IITs involve a considerable burden to the Indian taxpayer and this raises the important question of how the country should direct its educational investment. In a country with a woeful primary education record, government funding of the IITs is significant. In 2002-2003, the Central government's budgetary allocation to the IITs was Rs.564 crores compared with a total elementary education outlay of Rs.3,577 crores. Even if it is recognised that the State governments undertake a large responsibility in providing primary education, there is little doubt that the allocation to primary education is grossly inadequate. The myriad social benefits of primary education such as lower fertility rates and improved health care are evident but some important questions beg asking. Are the returns on investing in primary education, for the country as a whole, higher than the returns on investing in higher education, particularly in such specialised technical training? Are the spill over effects of such high quality technical education large enough to justify the significant investment? Is the right balance between primary and higher education being maintained?

Returns on primary education may not be easily quantified or measured but there is widespread recognition that universal primary education is a vastly beneficial goal. The question of educational priorities almost assumes moral proportions, especially if the money spent on IITs can alternatively be channelled into primary education. Are sections of society being denied access to primary education on account of significant Central Government funding to the IITs? Estimates of the IITs' heavy contribution to the brain drain, discussed later in the article, would suggest that the money spent on the IITs can be better utilised in primary education. Calculating the true cost of an IIT education may be more complicated than it appears on the surface. It would have to include some measure of foregone primary education and its associated benefits, which could have otherwise been provided with the amount allocated to the IITs.
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Singha »

joining the nathan mhyrvold venture...

IIT-Bombay head quits, joins U.S firm
Wednesday, July 23, 2008

New York: Ashok Misra has quit as Director of Indian Institute Technology-Bombay (IIT-B). His resignation has been accepted, he announced at the culmination of the IIT-B's Golden Jubilee Conference here Sunday.

Misra, who has served IIT-B as director since 2000, is joining Intellectual Ventures, a private company based at Bellevue in the U.S. state of Washington. Founded in 2000, the company invests in inventions and aims to develop a patents portfolio.
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Misra earned his B. Tech in Chemical Engineering from IIT Kanpur in 1968 and a PhD in 1974 in Polymer Science & Engineering from the University of Massachusetts.

Before joining IIT-B, he was in IIT Delhi, where he was the head of the Centre for Polymer Science & Engineering 1991-94, and as Dean, Alumni Affairs & International Programmes, 1997-2000.

Misra's research and development contributions have earned him several awards and honours. These include the fellowship of the National Academy of Sciences and fellowship of the Indian National Academy of Engineering.

Besides publishing 70 papers in international journals, he has been awarded six patents.
shaardula
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by shaardula »

talking of attrition, anybody know the state of affairs in vocational training courses and diploma courses?

diploma is the equivalent of associates in the united states. straight out of highschool you join diploma classes and specialize in electrical, mechanical, civil etc.

ITI, vocational is skills training carpentry, fitting etc.

right after my degree, for a semester i used to teach controls and digital circuits in one of the diploma schools in my native town while preparing for sundry exams. one kid out of there found my name on orkut and contacted me. after a stint at sarkaari industries, he joined an aeronautics co in BLR and is on and off germany since '02. he says his classmates are doing well too.

but attrition used to be a big problem in such schools. as i said, i used it to score brownie points for a possible TA. they have hardware. but effervescent expertise. the school i taught in was manned by a very avuncular and genial principal who moonlighted from his farming duties. another example i know personally of, near pune, a rural polytechnic managed to get funds for lathes, moulding equip etc. the idea was to let village people use it to design their own tools. in the initial enthu period some nice things came off it. but it was very difficult to retain instructors and skilled handlers. similar was the case for a school in belgaum dist.

the kids are smart and eager. but market economics does not scale. any ideas?
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

shaardula wrote: but attrition used to be a big problem in such schools.

but it was very difficult to retain instructors and skilled handlers. similar was the case for a school in belgaum dist.

the kids are smart and eager. but market economics does not scale. any ideas?
if you are on ground zero, can you write to the biggie-wiggies like ambani, nrn, tata, the mla, mp etc for chipping in a little more to retain the faculty at these places (money does speak, esp when anything else may not) and Cc ndtv like attention-grabbing news media? i guess we can always manipulate these dhimmedia for constructive purposes.

another trick is to go after folks that are grabbing negative attn - they may do something in the midst of media et al, but eh any attn is advertisement for a cause. i also know of many a faculty-waalon at iitm/iisc who hold rural/primary/vocational education close to their heart. an email might suffice explaining whats wrong + what you think could stem the rot at least a little bit. if you need to know names, i can chip in a few at your email id {mass email to the faculty list usually gets thrown to the trashcan - personalized email always wins}.

also, if you know of budget etc how about posting here what is needed? I can chip in something personally. i think it is high time that brf should morph into a more activist enterprise. there is enough momentum to generate cash flow for real br activities. thats my opinion.

at some point, we need someone to grandfather good deeds, be it media or cause celebres. but all this takes time away from your day to day life, that is almost always the biggest constraint. no wonder we have few people to hit back at the medha patkars and arundhotis.
shaardula
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by shaardula »

stan sorry for being brutal but ...

no stan, guilt trips are not an answer to this problem. ultimately these types of schools are what will drive the indian economy. pity money goes nowhere. i was involved when teaching and after that. i am not now, but i know. they dont want dharma money. and that is why i am not involved now. they want what is rightfully theirs. something sustainable, something more permanent and not as temporal and something more respectful and appreciative. around my current native toyota is pitching in. some real difference my dad tells me they are making. japan of all places!!! but that is not all.

i want solutions of the type suraj et al., give. i want suraj to respond to this post. i want real fundamental changes. i want GoI to respond.

but i will hold you to your promise. i will ask for names.
carvaka
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Advice on education for the gifted

Post by carvaka »

Terry Tao has some nice advice on gifted education at his blog. For those of you not familiar, he received the 2006 Fields Medal, the math nobel prize.

Do check out the links at Tao's blog. I will be happy to hear from others if India has any system in place for dealing with exceptionally gifted children. The article Radical Acceleration in Australia: Terence Tao talks about the Australian experience in dealing with such cases.
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Amber G. »

IPhO (Physics Olympiads) India got 4 gold and a silver! Excellent.
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Sumeet »

stan, vina and other education experts what do you guys think ?

JEE fails to get the best: IIT dons
CHENNAI: Is one of the country's toughest tests, the Joint Entrance Exam for IITs, failing to sift the brightest minds for admission to India's premier engineering institutes? Now, voices from inside the IITs are beginning to question the JEE format. The director and the dean of IIT-Madras have called for radical changes in the JEE, saying that the coaching institutes were enabling many among the less-than-best students to crack the test and keeping girls from qualifying.

"I am looking for students with raw intelligence and not those with a mind prepared by coaching class tutors. The coaching classes only help students in mastering (question paper) pattern recognizing skills. With this, you cannot get students with raw intelligence," said IIT-Madras director, M S Ananth.

Virtually opening what could be a heated debate on the current JEE format, Ananth wanted the system to lay more stress on students' performance in school. "You may not be able to do away with the JEE but I am wondering if we should be conducting an examination for 3,00,00 aspirants and selecting just 5,000. Instead, we must evolve a system where only the top 1% of students from different state boards and CBSE are permitted to appear for the JEE," he said.

Professor V G Idichandy, dean (students), IIT Madras, was more vocal, demanding that JEE be abolished. "One of the reasons for the poor intake of girls in the flagship BTech programme is that parents don't send daughters for coaching classes. The best way to increase the intake of girls is to have direct admissions," he said.

Both Ananth and Idichandy expressed concern that the present system did not allow for the 12 years of schooling to have a bearing on admissions into IITs. "The overall capability of a student cannot be merely assessed by their performance in physics, mathematics and chemistry. The student must have good communication skills also," Idichandy said.

'Need to revamp JEE'

IIT-Madras director, M S Ananth said, by attending the IIT coaching classes, students were learning a wrong lesson that the ends justify the means. "They (students) think there is nothing wrong in missing school to attend coaching. But the student does not realize his real loss."

Ananth recalled that three years ago, a JEE review committee had suggested a cut-off of 85% marks in the Class XII board exam for students to be eligible for the JEE. "But the CBSE and other boards turned it down and wanted to have 60% as the cut-off. Now, that's an easy score to get," he said.

While acknowledging that the JEE has led to proliferation of coaching classes and has put students under stress, IIT-Bombay director, Ashok Misra, was more cautious on bringing in wholesale changes. "If we can develop another system that is not overhyped, I am for it. But doing away with the JEE does not seem appropriate at present. We have been constantly working on tweaking the JEE as per the students' needs and also to cut down on pressure," he said. Evidently, we haven't heard the last word on this issue.

(With inputs from Hemali Chhapia in Mumbai)
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by R_Kumar »

This report looks confusing to me. They want raw talents and then at the same time want to exclude students who scored < 85 %.
In my school days I came across couple of students from cbse board who were not up to mark as far as basic concepts was concerned, but they did have > 85 %.
I never met any student from my local state board who had > 85%. It was very rare to get even > 80% in the state board.

There were 6 students who cleared JEE that year and 5 of them were from state board. Except one, every one had < 80% and >60%.
Just want to mention one more thing, no one had any coaching other than Brilliant and Agrawal classes postal course.

If they implement > 85% criteria, following will be the outcome :-

- % of students from ruler / small town background will come down drastically.
- % of various state board students will come down.
- % of girls will increase for sure
- We will loose significant number of bright students who is good in thinking / concepts but not so good in memorizing.

I think IIT profs need to outsmart coaching institute. I red a report some where that by 2010 JEE will select close to 11,000 students. 10-15 years ago they were selecting only 2,200.
That means they shouldn't compare quality of current students with students from 15 years back.
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by shaardula »

i just discovered that Kosambi of indian history fame also made perhaps one of the most fundamental discoveries in statistics. Apparently, Karhunen-Loève theorem should really be Kosambi Karhunen-Loève theorem.

So, between Kosambi and CR Rao of Rao-Cramer bound and Rao Blackwell theorem, that is two fundamental contributors to statistics from India. Not to mention Mahalanobis and the Kolkatta gang and folks like Sukhatme and even Chandra's work in stochastics. Even now some folks crunching wierd looking numbers and symbols in ISI and sundry colleges all over India.

Anyway, back to KKLT, that thing is what people call an 'elegant result'. But elegance is just half of it, it is awesome because it is profound and has applications all over the place including signal processing, functional math, graphics, robotics, controls, statistics, psychology, etc etc.... and i am not even talking about other engineering and science disciplines that i have no clue about.

but,this theorem is profound because three of its special cases are mother ships in their own right.
in stochastics something known as weiner processes which are optimal estimators and have p number of applications.
in functions something known as linear representation(fourier series) and compression(jpeg) based on it and we all know what fourier series can do and how much of new indian economy depends on it.
in statistics something known as principal component analysis which engineers and scientists use to elegantly slice up the uncertainity cloud and psychologists, psephologists etc. use to further obfuscate. :)

sorry could not resist taking a dig. but hey just because you have a slicer you cannot use it everywhere. For some type of problems that are firm like a fresh banana it yields nice and juicy slices but if your problem is fuzzy to begin with like a stale banana then you will get only mush.

sorry for mixing metaphors, but that algorithm is really a mathematical slicer.

CR Rao's work is another basic result.

So I guess the question for this thread is how to go about providing an ecosystem for folks who will do such work. Why do we have so many Indians in statistics. How many more could have there been? and so on ....
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

From what I have seen, a significant revamp of the JEE system has been looooooong overdue.

"I am looking for students with raw intelligence and not those with a mind prepared by coaching class tutors. The coaching classes only help students in mastering (question paper) pattern recognizing skills. With this, you cannot get students with raw intelligence," said IIT-Madras director, M S Ananth.

There cant be a better nail in the coffin than this. The problem is this: If the JEE goes for a toss, we are going to have all the folks who have fought hard for the obc quota and what not come back and say this is a brahmin conspiracy. Just wait and watch. I can already see the pmk-dk types up in arms bringing the name conspiracy to anything and everything. If the JEE are left to the IITs to run, which is what a naive reader may think is happening, then there should be no problem revamping the bloody system. Unfortunately, the meddling of the GoI has become so blatantly irksome that in some quarters, there is more of hopelessness even as diktats keep flying to the JEE organization committee "Make things better." The autonomy that characterized IIT education is more or less done away with these days, some of it is welcome, some of it too intrusive to help the system adapt to systemic changes in society. On top of all this, political correctness {even in internal meetings} + too many noisy vessels with less idea of the global scheme of things means that more saner + erudite voices get drowned out.

The fact that coaching agencies like Bansals, kota productions, ramaiah et al will rule the roost at the end of the day is no surprise. The surprise is the lack of googlies from the JEE papers. I remember seeing super googlies around the time I prepared for JEE. The best possibility at this stage can be introduction of face2face interviews a la IIMs. We cant sift out the chaff from the grain with the current system. Till we can revamp it, alternate fixes like EIQ etc are the only way out, irrespective of how manpower-intensive such a process is going to be. This country deserves better than the junk that comes ouf of this system, that I happen to come across in day2day life.


saying that the coaching institutes were enabling many among the less-than-best students to crack the test and keeping girls from qualifying.

This "preventing girls from qualifying" canard is an euphemism for PC. The fraction of girl students is low, yes. But there is no overt/covert discrimination in the JEE. The syllabus is well-known, the classes are taking place, the profs + the system go out of the way in being helpful to girls {who need help}. So despite all that if there are few girls, then one must blame peer culture. Not the system or the coaching classes. The coaching classes are money-minded, as long as anyone pays cash, they dont give a rats behind for who the student is. What I find irritating is the BS that gets passed on in the US in the name of AA is going to take root in some form or the other very soon. But wait a minute, did nt the SP nip the 33% thing in the bud? But when it will come to quotas in IITs, I am sure they too care a rats behind for whats good or bad. They will go for which direction the wind blows {no pun intended}.

"You may not be able to do away with the JEE but I am wondering if we should be conducting an examination for 3,00,00 aspirants and selecting just 5,000. Instead, we must evolve a system where only the top 1% of students from different state boards and CBSE are permitted to appear for the JEE," he said.

Thats terrible. Preventing some folks from writing JEE is like waving a red flag at a raging bull. What Prof. Ananth is suggesting is that they have shortage of manpower to sift through the incoherent mess thats called JEE. So he wants to cut down the numbers to something saner. But cutting down on those who take the exam arbitrarily {based on 10th + 12th marks} is rubbish. A student may have performed terribly in English and 2nd language, and so he may not be in the top 1%, so wtf?! He may have been a bulb at Bio/Chem/whatever else and ended up out, so wtf?! For all I know, there are few branches that need Chem, even fewer Bio. Phy/Math seem more or less universal to many fields. So how is this decision going to be made? 1% 5%, how about differentiating between CBSE vs state boards vs ICSE? I cant find of a more un-scientific solution than this.

From what I have seen, many of the smartest folks in my class {and for whose intelligence I have respect even to this day} did neither well in the board exams or had super high 9+ CGPAs at the end of four years. They were some of the gifted folks, with like 2 hrs of mug they could go take an exam in a completely vague subject and do it pretty well deriving basic formulas from scratch using (if you have heard this word before) "dimensional analysis." :rotfl: Thats the set of folks that JEE need to get hold of, cos if you make them feel enthusiastic about something, then its jackpot. If else, they will be like walking cadavers. A JEE system in its current form is letting these folks get sunk into the IT-vity stuff where their talents are super-wasted.

Professor V G Idichandy, dean (students), IIT Madras, was more vocal, demanding that JEE be abolished. "One of the reasons for the poor intake of girls in the flagship BTech programme is that parents don't send daughters for coaching classes. The best way to increase the intake of girls is to have direct admissions," he said.

Sorry for being misogynist, but is this admission for engineering or is it admission for something else? If there is direct admissions, it should be based on potential prospects for being a good engineer, not whether they have anything extra or not. In education circles, as people get older, they start feeling guilt about the lack of girls they have mentored etc etc. And some of them take that guilt to a super-Stockholm level of empathizing and sympethazing with all and sundry vocal about things. Many of their beliefs are based on poor logic. I keep reading the Chronicle, a newsletter of sorts on edu matters that get posted. I keep hearing whinefests about how there are so few womenfolk in faculty etc etc despite the % of PhD graduates is skewed etc. Whats worse, there has been a tribe of insulted women academicians who get to be statisticians delight picking numbers about how much % of tenured faculty is women, how many of tenure-track is women, whats their payscale etc etc. At the end of the day, they have a baichara conference that goes by the name advance where everyone sinks into the statistics, blame everyone for all their woes, and finally go home after this "conference" all at NSF money. What hardly gets noticed is that getting a tenure track position is an equal slugfest for men {if not more painful cos most open positions are AA-centric} these days. The moral at the end of this story is that some people make it, if they have the patience to sit with the injustices that have been meted out to them. If they give up and run away, they can form AA-anonymous and keep whining and blaming everyone else.

We have nt had such a situation in India yet. There are no overt quotas for women etc afaik. When this Amrikan bug hits us {which wont be too far away}, we are in for more nightmares. Whats also forgotten in this mess is that women have been actively discriminated against in Oiropean society ever since independence time. Universal suffragete came around the earlu 1900s when most of these countries got independence in late 1700s. Same for Blacks. I dont see how that translates to something tangible in Indic terms. We did nt have freedom till like 60 yrs back and when we did get it, we started with universal suffragete on day 1. Of course, one can blame sociological factors, but then moi no JNU jholawala to pick this cudgel for anything sensible.

Ashok Misra, was more cautious on bringing in wholesale changes. "If we can develop another system that is not overhyped, I am for it. But doing away with the JEE does not seem appropriate at present. We have been constantly working on tweaking the JEE as per the students' needs and also to cut down on pressure," he said. Evidently, we haven't heard the last word on this issue.

The best solution in the long run is to dump JEE altogether and get a new non-GoI-intrusive admission process. JEE is doomed to failure now that HRD folks have seen it as a bequest to partition to give to select set of the populace. We need engineers, a large number of them. JEE produces third-rate engineers these days, let it keep churning out 1000s of em. We need all we can get hands on. Let the JEE be upped on a mass scale and let it dump crap for use by Indian companies. We need an alternate system where folks who can do cutting edge research need to be discovered. In all fields, not just engg. STEM fields - all across the board. We need a select few, super selective where they have decent resources for a decent {upper middle class} living. That will also stem the flow of Indic talent from inside India to offshore locations for polishing. The role model should be Nalanda where outside folks came to India to learn our arts and sciences. But yea, if wishes were horses, my unkil will be my aunty. Its gonna take a looooong while to get there, at least 20-30 years.
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Singha »

I think his point about girls was - in a broken system wherein attending residential classes was
the key to JEE entry, a lot of girls who would otherwise have crawled in via the "coaching system"
are not, because their parents wont sent them off to kota or hyd.

so its not about getting the cream of crop, more like female drones not getting a equal opp with
the male coaching drones :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Singha wrote:I think his point about girls was - in a broken system wherein attending residential classes was
the key to JEE entry, a lot of girls who would otherwise have crawled in via the "coaching system"
are not, because their parents wont sent them off to kota or hyd.
This direct admissions scheme was tried with furrin-based Injuns 10 yrs back.. it was called direct admissions for students abroad (DASA).. was an utter flop. There were a few good students picked but there were many good students (who were probably ranked as toppers in their schools) who ended up fighting with the battle-hardened JEE monsters and getting pained with the system that was skewed against them. Many ended up being 5 and 6-pointers. The problem was that DASA used SAT as a metric for comparison with JEE :rotfl:

So the moral is unless they disband JEE completely and go for direct admissions for all spots, its gonna be an utter flop esp with the battle-hardened JEE munsters. But then there is no assurance for quality control, even more disastrous than whatever quality one can hope to get with the current JEE system. Some of the admin-log know that they have to pick a fight with GoI if they have 2 fix the crap as it exists now. And many dont want to, cos its like tilting swords against windmills. Thats why they are coming up with all these "straight from the posterior" quick fixes. And lack of girls is just an excuse some give to the PC "ndtv-like" pick the fight for the disadvantaged media 2 side with them. It should nt be 2 surprising to see some ueber-chankians in the admin-log no?!
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Singha »

well if drones are all we are going to get, better to keep a 50:50 m:f drone ratio to
keep everyone pacified and away from their books. who knows...people allegededly
come up with deep creative thoughts in the company of drinks and women/men
as the case may be...new insights into alternate dimensions if marijuana is thrown
into mix.

imagine the "dum maro dum" type scene infront of eyeyeteeyem admin blocks...
...long haired guys with guitars smoking pot and strumming guitars...a few kaftan
glad ladies dancing slowly....."duniya ne mujhko diya kiya , duniya ne mujhse liya kiya"

destruction is the beginning of all creation - Bakunin
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Clicky

With the mushrooming of engineering institutions, including six new IITs being launched this year, “shortage of faculty is an area of acute concern,” Union Minister of State for Human Resource Development D. Purandeswari, said at the inauguration function. “The quality of their graduates would depend on the quality of their teachers… Compounding this problem is the fact that there is a drain from teaching and research into other, more lucrative fields.” One way of dealing with this problem would be for the IITs to “consider providing a special package for those faculty members retiring at the age of 65 as well as for eminent scientists retiring at the age of 60 from CSIR laboratories, DRDO laboratories or some private corporations,” said the Minister.

But this will only be a SHORT-term fix?! How about the lack of travel funds to attend international conferences {at least 3-4 per year} that is being a major farce in preventing people who are talented in coming back? Some of these babus seem to be dumping their head into cow dung and attending to proverbial third-rate fixes when the first-rate fix is staring giantly at their faces. As of now, with few faculty members who can do solid research, research grant cash is NOT an issue. But it will become a huge issue when they can attract more people. So they have to increase the cash flow in this segment proportionately. What is seen as a HUGE stumbling block is the way folks have to fight {hard at that} to get DoE cash to attend intl conferences.

She also suggested that the IITs take a proactive approach and compile data on potential young candidates available abroad. If the IITs could recruit students on the verge of completing post-doctoral research either in India or abroad, once they were earmarked as potential faculty, they could be given support to continue post-doctoral research in any premier institution of their choice, she said.

The highlighted text actually shows the giant gap in perceptions between the babus, politicians and the ground reality. Someone who is doing a postdoc is NOT a student. He/she is well on their way to being full-fledged stand-alone academic. That may look like a slip of the tongue, for me that lets the cat out of the bag in the sense that these doofuses have no fricking clue about what it is to be an academic, what it means to do a postdoc, what it means to be a student etc. As long as people who are in the know {and who can understand the complex issues that go into preventing folks from coming back}, there will be NO cultural change thats a precursor to setting up great institutions. And the culture changes from generation to generation, the folks who graduated with a PhD in the 80s had a completely different level of appreciation for certain things than folks of THIS generation do. This generation DEMANDS facilities and use their furrin location as a bargain chip. That seems like a H&D issue for many. But they better get used to it cos if someone wants to survive in this dog-eat-dog world, they better bargain all they can. Slowly that feeling is sinking in. But its too slow.

I had this conversation with a few folks very recently about whats preventing em from coming to Yamerika for more conferences. They say, there is nuff cash for students. And I dont care about my paycheck cos I can compensate that with a few Ks of sponsored projects. But travel money is a shit pain. The IITs have it worse in this regard than IISc. Even TIFR fares better, I hear. If thats the case, there is something that needs a giant fix.

Some of the great admin-log dont necessarily have a PhD or even a Btech for that matter. Administration is different from research and policy-making is different from administration. India has been super-unfortunate in having rubberstamps with no vision or no idea about where we should be etc having more power than they should. A pitiable state of affairs.

they could be given support to continue post-doctoral research in any premier institution of their choice, she said.

This is a NON-starter. We all know how this will end up. They will end up getting a J-1 in the Amerikas. Send in their waiver papers the next day. Besides, they may have had to sign some clauses saying GoI objects if they want to immigrate et al. But if they are too smart, there are other options to overcome GoI objections. Besides that, forcing someone to come back is super-counterproductive. A hare-brained idea. Instead of trying to fund postdoc ventures, they can go active and lure some of the biggies back. The biggies need big facilities. Instead of trying to reap 3-4 startups, they can pool that cash for getting a giant tree. IMHO. Again, shows a lack of big picture into what runs in the head of an academic-minded person.

“The IITs can also consider employing adjunct faculty from the ranks of those working in industrial R&D establishments as well as faculty members of Indian origin working in American and European universities,” she added.

Yes, but does NOT solve the main problem. I mean when your house is getting filched in daylight, what sane idiot will say let me go fix the sewer?! Mean, the biggest problem needs tackling first. Adjuncts all help, but there seems to be no vision in luring folks back. Its a market, you lure, you get the folks back. Else someone else takes them off. Demand supply, as simple as that.

The IITs should look to retain the 1,000 Ph.D scholars passing out of their own institutions every year, as well as attract the 50,000 Indian students doing their Ph.D. abroad, said R.P. Agrawal, secretary, Higher Education, in the Union Ministry for Human Resource Development. He said the Ministry was aware of the questions of quantity trumping quality arising as the new IITs opened their doors.

MHRD knows, so what does it do? Where is Vision 2020 statement? Where is consensus in policy-making? What has the National Knowledge commission done for its existence? Yea GoI knows a 1008 things including greenhouse effect will screw our lives, so wtf?!

Retaining all the 1000 PhD scholars seems like the babu-academic disconnect. If I were a faculty member, and if all my students were to end up being faculty members or industry folks or babus for that matter, I will consider it a major flop. Same logic. If all the 1000 Indian PhDlog end up in India, there will be inbreeding of ideas and corruption and lack of vibrancy. A bit of a socialist nightmare. It has happened time and again, take the Soviet scientists, too many inside will lead to prospering of a select few and the destruction of a vast majority cos they will be apeing the leaders. The best option would be: If a significant % of the 1000 PhD scholars stay back, many go out, learn new tricks and return back at some point in time so that they are NOT past their shelf-life. Will serve India best that way.
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Amber G. »

Stan_Savljevic wrote: And winning a cpl of golds in the olympiads would get everyone in India gruel for the next day, right?! ....

Before someone pounces on this line of reasoning to say research etc should be done and dusted for the same reason, can Amber G ...... et al post the data for the statistical correlation between olympiad golds and fundamental res contributions. Dont quote Terry Tao's case, for heavens sake. I want undeniable data points, not your personal opinion.

I must state that I have no data points beyond the following. I personally know three INMO gold medallists from my batch, who are currently doing financial consulting :rotfl: (unrelated to math and prob of course), a Msoft job :rotfl: :rotfl:, and owning a startup (selling network routers) :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:.
Stanji - I asked you to check stats before making fantastic claims about having no data between Olympiad medals and fundamental contribution. Did you check it?

I will not quote Terry Tao's name but can list at least other few,
Margulis, Grigorig A. , Drinfel'd, Vladimir,
Yoccoz, Jean-Christoph , Borcherds, Richard E. Gowers, Timothy

BY ANY STANDARD, this is HUGE... to put it in perspective, whole of India , I think, does not have a single Fields Medalist.

All very well know Mathematicians, (Fields Medal), who also had IMO medals.

Also going by standard statistical correlation, the exacted value , if there are no correlation would be about .000001 or so, it is a factor of about factor of 100,000 or more, certainly greater than 1. In fact MUCH greater than, saying say Tendulkar is expected to make more runs than me in some given game of cricket.

Also I asked you about who are these "friends" who got "gold medals" in INMO. I ask because according to wiki, INMO has no gold medals... I might be wrong, of course but also there is a slight possibility that your friends really did not make out IMO team etc..(and making up claims like the guy I knew who claimed to have degree from IIT Hyderabad in Kerala :)

Sorry, facts/statistics are stubborn things, you just can't make them up. :)

Certainly not every great mathematician was a IMO medalist or vice-versa.. but to say there is NO correlation between two is plain absurd. MOO.

What do you think? Do you still think that :
there might be very few who are really inclined to the math part to take part in this olympiad gyliampiad nonsense. Most of them do it to show their appendages are bigger than the rest, pure ego sentiment. Sorry that is not sustainable in the long run, except for a few exceptional examples.
What percentage would you call "most of them" .. and what would you call "few of them"

Is " very few of them" is one or two percentage of 99%? :)
And "mist of them" do you mean 1%?
Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Amber G. wrote: Stanji - I asked you to check stats before making fantastic claims about having no data between Olympiad medals and fundamental contribution. Did you check it?

Nope, did nt bother to.

A list of a few mathematicians followed by....

BY ANY STANDARD, this is HUGE... to put it in perspective, whole of India , I think, does not have a single Fields Medalist.

All very well know Mathematicians, (Fields Medal), who also had IMO medals.

Also going by standard statistical correlation, the exacted value , if there are no correlation would be about .000001 or so, it is a factor of about factor of 100,000 or more, certainly greater than 1. In fact MUCH greater than, saying say Tendulkar is expected to make more runs than me in some given game of cricket.

Whatever this means, when it is followed by

Certainly not every great mathematician was a IMO medalist or vice-versa.. but to say there is NO correlation between two is plain absurd. MOO.

Cmon, I am at wit's end following what your point is. I repeat what I said before in Anglais AGAIN: "Olympiad gylimpiad et al is NOT the way in which you can figure out the elites who show/can show great promise for doing great things. Definitely so, in the Indian context given that most people are NOT EVEN aware of such bullcrap." You sit in a Yamerikan setting where most decent high-schools are bombarded with "Show your appendage off to your peers" contest. And peddle general theories that most likely are not applicable in India, let alone executable.

Let me go one rung below the belt. Are you aware of the statistics of how many schools in India that have heard of IMO, no INMO before we venture into IPho, Icho, Ibo and other assorted stuff? How about schools in Vellore, Bhuj, Aizawl, Rawalkot?! Are you even aware of how many schools there are in the first place? You get the point?!

Is raw talent that is capable of great feats impossible in such places? S. Ramanujam came from one such background, let me refresh you. A. Einstein was sitting in the Oiropean patent office for all you could care. Some are prodigies, like Gauss, Tao, Galois etc. They get discovered irrespective of what background they are from. In the Indian context, there are more Ramanujams that are MIA than otherwise, if you did nt realize that so far.

Sorry, unlike Yamerika where the Fields medal and IMOs are known by all and sundry, the real Yindia has nt heard of IMO or even the JEE for that matter. Whoever has heard is the creme de la creme. Of course, this population that will hear about JEE et al will increase as days go by. But lets live today, not some 300 years ahead. Have you heard of any mechanism where promising students/talent in India can be cultivated? In India, not Yamerika. I hope I made that point super-clear.

Also, if you did nt realize, Fields medal is ONE metric to quantify great contributions. Certainly cool if someone is a Fields medallist, but a Fields medal alone is not the only way in which one can boast about math credentials. There is the Abel's prize, Lenin order of merit etc etc and more. The reason I say this is because I still dont see how you are going to categorize all those people who have nt even heard of an IMO. Did you check if CNR Rao has an IMO credential? :rotfl: His student, SRS?? Who spotted them? Can this talent spotting be engineered in a scientific way rather than some pseudo-scientific ad hoc way?!

You see all these Chinese math students who win gold after gold, year after year. Where are these people?????? I did nt see you cite even one Chinese or Iranian example, despite the fact that they keep winning gold after gold. So what does that mean? If I can take a crack at it, I will suggest that olympiad golds can be trained, but training is not an evidence for great fundamental research contribution. You need training + motivation + raw talent. Even one aspect MIA is done deal. Thus, I DO believe that IMOs are an ad hoc way to further talent in the Indian context. Sorry if it bothers you. {Thats why I believe that JEE is the stupidest farce to identifying raw talent in current contexts given that it has become a pissing context of who gets trained the most.}

The rest of your stuff, I will let slide. No time for more below the belts.
SaiK
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by SaiK »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Now_ ... 319507.cms

NEW DELHI: This year, six new Indian Institutes of Technology were brought into being, each with 120 seats — that's a total of 720 seats.

And yet, because the OBC, SC and ST quotas could not be filled up (as enough applicants could not get the generously-relaxed pass marks set for these categories), as many as 432 seats will go abegging.

Consider the absurdity of the situation. On the one hand, new IITs are being created at enormous cost; on the other, as many as 432 seats — that's the equivalent of three and a half IITs — are being allowed to go waste.

In Saturday's edition, we wrote a Times View saying: "To let over 430 seats in IITs go vacant is a criminal waste of infrastructure (such as faculty and physical facilities). Reservations are meant to give disadvantaged sections of society a boost. But where quotas cannot be filled because there aren't enough suitable candidates, the cut-off for general category should be relaxed so that all seats are used up — the cut-off will still be higher than for SC/STs, so no one can argue that it will dilute academic standards. As with airlines seats and hotel rooms, these seats are 'perishable', they must be filled the same year. This should not affect next year's quota."

This sorry situation is the result of two major education policies framed by the Centre. The government not only commissioned six new IITs, but simultaneously increased the number of quota seats (for which there are simply not enough eligible applicants). Despite the cut-off percentage being lowered in the name of affirmative action, the students have not made the grade. The old IITs can fill some of the seats with students from the preparatory course, but the new IITs have nothing to fall back on.

IIT-Guwahati director Gautam Barua said that the institute heads who are meeting later this month may ask the HRD ministry to dereserve unfilled quota seats. "There is no time this year but we may try to seek permission to transfer the vacant seats to the general category for next year," said Barua.

The prospect of empty chairs in the classroom has disheartened faculty members, many of whom echoed Saturday's Times View.

'Nearly 50% of reserved seats lying vacant'

Despite Centre's affirmative action by lowering the cutoff percentage for IIT exams, 432 seats still remain unoccupied. "Every IIT seat has the potential to produce a Nandan Nilekani or a Vinod Khosla," said a senior faculty from Kharagpur. "To allow even one seat to go vacant is like crushing a million dreams and aspirations."

Another professor from IIT-Bombay said that the empty-seat syndrome while not new had been aggravated this year because of the "unthinking way in which the HRD ministry merrily commissioned half-a-dozen new institutes and expanded quota seats without so much as a thought as to whether or not reserved candidates would qualify".

Down the years, IIT deans have faced the brunt of political interventions. When the first batch of IIT-Delhi students graduated, 47 of the 53 reserved category students failed. The dean was summoned. Recalling the meeting with the "big fat man", education minister Nurul Hassan, P V Indiresan said, "He kept his bulky hand on my shoulder and asked me, 'Professor, yeh kya kar diya?' (Professor what have you done?)" Little has changed. Only two months ago, IIT-Delhi was pulled up by the Minorities Commission for asking 20 reserved students to pack their bags because of "very poor performance".

These instances of political pressure though fairly common rarely come out in the open. IIT heads who are accused of casteism or deliberately failing reserved category students prefer to stay silent. Most are reluctant to even broach the topic of transferring vacant seats to the general pool, said a former IIT director. "Any issue regarding reserved students has a lot of political repercussions," said Indiresan.

According to a government report nearly 50% of the reserved seats remain vacant. And of those who make it, 25% drop out. The situation in the next academic year is likely to be even worse. This is because the six newbies do not have the back-up preparatory course.

IIT-Madras head M S Ananth said that while filling SC and OBC seats is still manageable, it is much more difficult when it comes to the tribal quota. "Despite this, these seats cannot be de-reserved as they were created as super-numeric seats over and above the existing number so as to ensure that quotas did not eat into the open category."

Ananth added that transferring seats was not encouraged — except in the case of OBC quota — "because of the fear that the IITs would try to fill them up with forward candidates. It's just that the government wants us to make enough efforts to look for backward students. Hence, if unfilled, the seats have to go vacant." Old hands like Indiresan rue the fact that the government is killing its golden goose for short-term political profit.
Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Indian Education System-2

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Before we have some Toilet paper of India articles that magically claim that single digit markholders are being "given away" seats in IIT et al, let me get ahead and post the recently released JEE statistics. There is way too much data, but one thing is absolutely clear.

JEE statistics

Single digit marks DO NOT get anyone {even SC/ST, let alone OBC or GC candidates} entry into ANY one of the IITs, including the new ones. What is misinterpreted by the toilet paper editors is that single digit marks are used as a cutoff for ranking students who are eligible to be considered for admission :rotfl: :rotfl:. Once the ranks {which usually goes by the short form AIR - All India Rank} are sent by "Indian posts" to each one of the ranked candidates along with their counseling dates {if decided a priori for high rankers or else can be figured from some website or calling some helpline number or whatever}, then comes the job of people actually being offered admissions to IITs.

In any case, the lowest rank (7903 in OBC/GC) has a cutoff mark of 172. The first ranker seems to have 433. The 4500th GC rank has 200 marks. If someone can plot and check for normal curve or heavy tail, I will be much obliged. The case from whatever statistics I see is that a decent chunk of the OBCs are doing fairly ok within the GC parameters. From the visual eye, dont ask me something scientific gyntific BS. As long as the JEE remains super-selective, the OBC tandava may not lead to super dilution etc, as long as the creamy layer is also allowed. Once the creamy layer is taken off, its again a fair game for prediction etc. But then every politico seems to be altering the ceiling for creamy layer somuchso in the near future, it may not make much difference. The problem of course is that the "really" deserving {meaning lower income groups} wont get the benefit. But then since IIT seats are left unoccupied if good candidates are not found, they would nt even otherwise, unless they performed better. What is necessary is perhaps free coaching-giri for lower income groups. Maybe the states can compete on providing subsidies for such efforts. Same holds for SC/STs.

But then the SCs are better off than STs as expected. More to the point of concern, both SCs and STs need to be pulled up. The OBCs can take care of themselves, we need subsidizing primary education for SC/STs and preparatory classes et al. I can see too many outliers in these two groups. Leaving them as is will only result in centrifugal forces building up.
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