Blasts in Ahmedabad

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jul 2008 05:41

Vk, Big names have been taken out. Even Lok Sabha & Jammu Kashmir Assy were attacked.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 27 Jul 2008 05:45

ramana wrote:What if it has nothing to do with outside forces but internal dynamics? the MO shows the desire to wound and not cause mayhem. The intensity and the locations are also signatures.

As the response in the ISI thread was that it looks like TSP woudlnt be so foolish as to do something when US troops are poised on western borders.

Rishi^2 What makes you think its islamics doing this? Go read Paddy's book.

The very fundamental problem of India (and the rest of the world, including muslim countries) is way Islam is preached. The end result of this is a seregated population, made to feel they are victems of global supression and belive that people who do not share their idiology, should be forced into submission. Live and let live, is not the ideal, rather it is "rule the world".

Deoband, Barelvis etc look upon India as an target that should be Islamised. Ayatholla Komeini was onced asked by an Pakistani journalist, if he could see any mistakes Jinnah did. He answered, that Jinnah lacked vision. In stead of demanding a partition he should have stayed with India. " A united India would have had 35-40% muslim population, within some time, we could have recaptured entire India".
Deobandis shared this ideology and was against the partition..............

Somehow secular India thinks that is is doing a great thing, by sticking the head in the sand and ignoring the war which is being waged against it.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 27 Jul 2008 05:46

RamaY wrote:dude... the world is round.. i got my post removed when i said something like that w.r.t naxals... if you wannna live a while here dont say anything that gives a hint to the others... even if it is out of frustration...

It wasn't out of frustration. But I was pointing towards a pattern which is not very much obvious.

It seems it is to cause harm within a limit so not to cause escalation by India at borders. So, they are avoiding high-value targets but at the same time, trying to excite chain reaction of riots by attacking religious places.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Jul 2008 05:50

If McCain wins, there would be more focus on Afghanistan.. and lot of these men will shift their counter focus as well.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 27 Jul 2008 05:55

Sanjay M wrote:LakshmiC was going on about the need for accountability in India by using Pak as an example. I would respond that Pak is in much more need of accountability and transparency than India is.

Sanjay M-saar,
I was trying to make the point "if we do not have a fair and transparent judiciary, we would land up where pakistan is today"

And your response to that is "oh yeah ? we don't need a transparent judiciary, they do". Did you even understand the thrust of my post ? Let me give you a hint: The statement (a) "we have a worse judiciary than pakistan" is miles different from the statement (b) "if we send our judiciary down the tubes, we will be as bad as pakistan". Your response makes sense for statement (a) and no sense for statement (b)

Sanjay M wrote: The issues that were always challenged by the critics of TADA/POTA were the surveillance and detention powers. I don't see what's wrong having such powers, when you're facing a terrorist threat. Let's note that it was BJP/JanSangh which faced the most persecution from Congress misuse of state police power, and not vice versa, but yet it's the BJP supporting TADA/POTA, while the chronic Congress power-abusers are the ones opposing TADA/POTA not for any aversion of abusing power, but rather to appease their vote banks.

Let me give you an example:
Why dont we buy tanks for our police to fight the terrorists ? Or how about shiny new F16s to fight the terrorists (like our neighbor pakis) ? Afterall, we are in a war and everybody should support our security forces...

Why do you think that such tools wont help to fight them ? it is because the lack of these tools are not the limitation towards hunting terrorists down

The reason we are not catching terrorists is because of (a) lack of political will (b) incompetence of investigating agencies (c) lack of investigative resources (are there enough forensic labs ? is there a searchable database ?) (d) poor intelligence resources in the police (are the monitoring and penetrating various groups ?)

Of all these, the preponderance towards wanting a law that is ripe for abuse, reeks of vengeance rather than any reasoned approach towards preventing attacks and catching people who perpetrate such attacks. Answer this question: if we had an option of allowing torture of terrorism suspects and summary execution of people who confess (some of whom might be innocent), would that be a good idea ? If not, why not ? If yes, I dont want to debate this point further, we will never converge.

Sanjay M wrote:Sorry, but we're in a war, here. You want every nicety to be extended when the enemy isn't extending every nicety.

Sanjay-M-saar,
An appeal to patriotism, "we are at war", "support our security forces who put their lives in line to help us", can be used as a justification for anything. As SDREs, we have to go beyond knee jerk reaction to prove that we are really chanakyan.

Look at the facts. Whether you like it or not, if these are islamist inspired bombing, the fact is there are domestic cells aiding pakis or doing it independant of pakis. Even the '93 bombing was done by SDREs (pakis may have financed them, the SDREs may have been mafia, but they were all SDREs).

Given that they are all SDREs, any perception that justice has been meted out by kangaroo courts, will only serve to inflame our population more. Whether such outrage is justifiable and why such and outrage is outrageous is fodder for nice self serving bile filled posts in threads. The fact is, unfair judicial processes or perception of unfair judicial processes will create more violence. Period.

Make our courts fair, our investigative agencies competent. We will talk about questionable laws later.

saip · Post by **saip** » 27 Jul 2008 06:05

(b) incompetence of investigating agencies (c) lack of investigative resources (are there enough forensic labs ?

What good is having a large number of forensic labs when we dont teach our cops how to collect evidence? No police lines, not even gloves to handle the evidentiary objects. Add to that no crowd contol and hudreds of curious onlookers trampling over the evidence. Timers could have had some finger prints but I am sure there is no way we can get them now.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 27 Jul 2008 06:06

saip wrote:
(b) incompetence of investigating agencies (c) lack of investigative resources (are there enough forensic labs ?
What good is having a large number of forensic labs when we dont teach our cops how to collect evidence? No police lines, not even gloves to handle the evidentialry objects. Add to that no crowd contol and hudreds of curious onlookers trampling over the evidence. Timers could have had some finger prints but I am sure there is no way we can get them now.

Saip-saar,
Why do you think I added "incompetence of investigating agencies" before "are there enough forensic labs" ? I am acutely aware of the problem of bottlenecks, in fact that is what I was trying to make in my post above. There is nothing to forensically analyze if you don't collect evidence (or dont know how to collect evidence) in the first place. I agree to what you are saying. Thats why I listed incompetence before lack of resources.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 27 Jul 2008 06:14

ShauryaT wrote:
darshan wrote:Hindus did not respond to anything in last 1000 years and I do not think they will respond to bomb blasts.
A patent lie. Please do read the unrevised history of the nation.

I do not want to create noise in this thread but I do not believe it is a lie.
Few cases over here and there does not make it truth either. Loss of Hindu land proves it.
Let me rephrase my comment, Hindus have not taken any action in last 1000 years that produced any positive gain for them vs other civilizations. I have said to many people and I would say the same thing here, when it comes to being soft or coward, Hindus win it hands down. And in former sentence I include whole population of India as Hindus regardless of gods they believe in.

I wonder where all those UPA supporters are hiding. UPA govt solved India's nuclear blah blah ..... in three years of negotiations but how about solving security issues regarding TSP. I do not give a damn about electricity but I would sure like to take a walk around city without loosing a hand or a leg. I hope they do not mention UPA in positive light until UPA does something other than condemning fireworks show as usual. Again I see nothing but "in the name of secularism please do not ask us to take any actions."

To some posters,
Indian muslims can take matter in their own hands and can go after terrorists too just like Hindus can. So far I have not seen it and I do not think I ever will. They are too busy living in god knows what century even though they were not converted in that century. Average IMs beliefs says a lot. Reminds me of a post I read on BRF about Prithviraj Chauhan's Fort and all sorts of brainwashing to turn lies into truths. Btw, no GoI has done anything to stop such brainwash either because truth in historical books does not go hand in hand with secularism.

In the end, these blasts should be forgotten just like atrocities of last 1000 years have been forgotten and are not mentioned or allowed to be mentioned. Secularism is a way to go. I like secularism and hope others would like it too.

Added later:
I hope Indian govt officials who shot many Hindus during riots get the people responsible for this fireworks show.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 27 Jul 2008 06:19

Statement by shivraj patil was pathetic - "we had given info to guj govt. 3 days ago."

Right, so now who controls IB, center or gujarat? who holds anti-terror expertise, center or states?

Terrorism is not policing matter. It comes under center directly because its linked to foreign terror affiliations of local pigs, which is out of control of states.

States police need to be in touch 24x7 with IB for any credible information. And I doubt if state police has any expertise on reading modus operandi of 10-15 terror groups spread around India. Only IB has such database.

With more integration and dedicated fail-safe networks, speed can be better to analyze and act.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 27 Jul 2008 06:22

Can somebody tell that patil guy that if information was obtained then how come no body was summoned from an embassy of certain country to deal with it?

And, next time please make such information public so people can take their own precautions. Preferably in Gujarati.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 27 Jul 2008 06:27

Rangudu wrote:ramana

I don't see much evidence to support your hypothesis or suspicion. These blasts appear to be the work of a jihadi network that has graduated from their mentor's school and who are now trying their own thing.

The 1980s analogy I think about is vis-a-vis the Khalistani terrorists and their relationship with TSP. The Khalistanis went into their own after a few key terrorist leaders learned all the tricks of the trade from the ISI. AFter that, TSP did not necessarily order specific hits but did liase with key leaders when there was a specific need for either party. At the same time, the understanding was that the Khalistanis would escalate and de-escalate based on the mood of the TSP establishment.

I honestly disagree.

In 80s, Khalistani attacks are only in Punjab and Delhi areas apart from chi-put ghatana away from this epicenter. After IG's death this has become more of inside Punjab due to various factors. There were several incidents involving IMs in Ajmer, Meerut, Kanpur, Assam and Tripura. Most of these were internal for norrow political purposes.

Rangudu wrote:The increased violence in J&K, border firings, increased press coverage of LeT/JeM leaders etc. all point to a conscious decision by TSPA/ISI to escalate things on their eastern front. My bet is that they did not like the Indian response to the Kabul embassy attack and want to take it to the next level.

To the extent that one can think along the ISI/jihadi lines, one can sense that the next escalation will be either a mass casualty attack conducted directly by TSPian LeT assets or it will be a on a national symbol like the IIT or Corporate HQ or even a nuclear power plant.

India directly/indirectly was able to move the frequency of high profile attacks from eastern side of Pakistan to western side of Pakistan. Post Musharaff-ABV meeting and the Lal Masjid attack could be reasons/catalysts in that direction. No doubt that ISI would like to go back to the glorious past. However, INC led government can afford these low profile attacks as it is in their interests of reviving their old old base. They could allow these 80s style attacks using the same SIMI sources while announcing the names of LeT/ISI. There is huge plausible deniability that is provided by Pakistan to the ruling elite of India.

It is possible for ISI to hit a high profile asset using the window provided by GOI in the form of being soft on the SIMI/LeT elements. Convergence of interests especially after SP becoming the coalition partner.

Regarding evidence, for any of the attacks that happened in the last four years, there is no single conviction and the some of arrested are released as well.It is funny several times Bilal is anounced dead and made alive next day. He was arrested several times by BSF, Hyderabad police and Maharastra police. These are all SIMI types and are on the payrolls of INC and SP and hence there is no chance of arrests. I do not think Indian police is that stupid of not knowing who is doing these stuff.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jul 2008 06:40

Its odd that soon after the Bengluru blasts some central agency popped in to say they gave info. What kind of Bs is that? If they have info they know who is doing it or else it time pass CYA action. Kind of blame the state govt for not preventing blasts. The patil info is also os same genre. Playing politics with citizens lives. BTW shame on the fellow to have a name like patil which represents law and order though centuries of Hindu India and his gross dirlection of duty to nation and to his name.

There is something deeply wrong if police officers think their duty to the nation ends in passing chits to others with vague info so they can claim they did their duty.

One proactive thing that GOI can do is appoint spokespersons for these agencies so that there is someone official to go to rather than anonymous sources who probably were busy arm twisting locals to support central govt of the day.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jul 2008 06:58

Google Cache of Ahmedabad blasts

Interesting e-mails and lists of potential targets. There is an odd one in the lot. Need to think about it.

bala · Post by **bala** » 27 Jul 2008 07:02

I think this blast is the handiwork of the CPI&M at the behest of their paymasters (China). Having lost the nuclear vote in Parliament badly, CPI&M needs a distraction. China needs one just prior to Aug 8, 2008 Olympics. What better than a soft state like India to create mayhem. Looks like the rest of the world does not give a damn about terrorism directed against India. Brace yourself for another Indian city to be targeted by the vermins soon.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 27 Jul 2008 07:08

ramana wrote:Google Cache of Ahmedabad blasts

Interesting e-mails and lists of potential targets. There is an odd one in the lot. Need to think about it.

I'm thinking you may be referring to Mukesh Ambani's name on the list.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Jul 2008 07:09

The nightmare scenario, that we all hoped should not happen in India, is beginning to appear. It was the ISI that first instigated terrorism in the Indian Punjab in the 80s. Since there wasn't enough concentration of Muslim population in the Punjab, they had to find Sikhs themselves to do all the dirty work and they had no dearth of them. Then, the ISI sent foreign and Pakistani jihadis into J&K. They drove all the Pandits out from the Valley. Then they slowly started targetting other places in India, especially Mumbai and Delhi, then UP. All these attacks were initially by Pakistanis, assisted by local Muslims in logistics within the country. The terror was outsourced to Bangladeshis afterwards while the masterminds were Pakistanis.At the same time, several Indians were getting involved in training, recruiting etc and were beginning to operate out of Pakistan. Then, the ISI started outsourcing terrorism to Indian outfits after sufficient number of sleeper cells had been located in various cities. Soon, the Indian jihadis will start operating autonomously.

bala · Post by **bala** » 27 Jul 2008 07:10

Meanwhile Looks like Pukistan is at it to reinforce the message of terrorism ...

Pak troops resort to heavy firing on Indian post

Jammu (PTI): Pakistani troops on Saturday fired heavily at Indian forces at a forward post in Krishna Ghatti sector in Jammu and Kashmir, a defence spokesman said here.

However, the Indian troops exercised restraint and did not retaliate, Lt. Colonel S D Goswami said.

Giving details, the spokesman said some unidentified ultras fired about three rounds of Rocket Propelled Gun (RPG) on Indian post in Nagri Tekri area of Krishna Ghatti sector of Poonch district in the morning.

It was followed by heavy firing by Pakistani troops from across the Line of Control and continued till afternoon, he said, adding "our troops exercised restraint and did not retaliate".

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jul 2008 07:19

R, isnt that odd? Why would an Islamic outfit want do that? What takleef did he give?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jul 2008 07:24

I condemn the perpetrators of the blasts. It is wrong to pin the blame on anyone prematurely. Bad elements are trying to shatter the peaceful and harmonious secular fabric of this country. They will be brought to justice. Already committees are being set up to look into the individual blasts on a case by case basis. A central team headed by an official of rank no less than that of assistant to the deputy secretary to the government of India has been selected to look into the appointment of a team to gather evidence from the sites of the blasts and will be ready to visit each blast site within two weeks. The government is looking into speeding the response time after future blasts so that a rapid action team can be on site in less than a week after the blasts. An ex gratia payment of Rs 50,000 has been announced for those who were killed in the blasts, and an immediate payment of Rs 10,000 to the relatives of the deceased. It would be difficult to describe these blasts as terrorism. Misguided individuals have tried to cause terror but they will not succeed. The government will increase the budget for the setting up of surveillance cameras by Rs 1 lakh immediately and at least 3 new surveillance cameras wlll be installed outside important buildings within the next five year plan period. A high power group will look into improving manpower and training resources for the police. This group will commence its work in the first Lok Sabha session to be held after completing its current task of looking into the salaries of the armed forces which are rising rapidly compared to the salaries of cabinet secretaries. I urge people to remain calm and carry on with their work.

bala · Post by **bala** » 27 Jul 2008 07:25

Warning: Graphic Image...

Toll thus far: 40 killed, 100 injured in terror strikes; human bomb attack suspected near hospital trauma centre

Unconfirmed reports said the worst attack occurred near the trauma centre of the government civil hospital, where at least 25 people, including two doctors, were killed. Some eyewitness accounts claimed that it was a “human bomb” attack. The body was said to have been shattered but the incident was not confirmed by the police, who put the casualties in the hospital attack at not fewer than six.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Jul 2008 07:34

ramana wrote: What takleef did he give?

Ramana, no takleef here. This confirms that it is the ISI behind these blasts. The idea is to disrupt Indian economy, which may not be the objective of SIMI. The ISI is therefore mixing the local sentiments with their own strategic goals.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 27 Jul 2008 07:47

I kinda agree with SSridhar. If a key economic target can be colored as a "legitimate" response to some kind of grievance of IMs then ISI will be all for it.

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 27 Jul 2008 08:12

I remember an incident where police had to let go culprit because of the pressure from above. I think it was Hyderabad . Also, we had a similar case in Kerla. I am sure if I search on internet I will find many such cases.

narayanan wrote:R_kumar:
It is not true that most of the GUILTY ones arrested are "out on the street next day". It is true that often, when the police are sloppy in their investigation, the arrested person is released on bail, and even that is after severe torture etc. on the presumption of guilt. This is why the Indian police lack credibility among the Indian public.

The law that allows people to be released on bail is the same one that protects YOU from indefinite confinement and torture by lazy or malicious "authorities". If you find that unacceptable, emigration clearances may be available to any of the many nations where "law enforcement" does not have to observe such "leftist" practices as releasing people on bail. Saudi Arabia comes to mind. Or People's Republic of China.

O! thank you BRF software! For the Freedom to Dis-As-socialize! Going to add to the list right now.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 27 Jul 2008 08:13

Terror outfit says we did it, promises to target Mukesh Ambani, politicians

New Delhi, July 26 (IANS) A little known terror outfit, Indian Mujahideen, claimed to have taken “revenge of Gujarat in the land of Hind” by orchestrating multiple serial blasts in Ahmedabad Saturday that claimed at least 14 lives and left more than 70 injured, and vowed to target industrialist Mukesh Ambani, and Maharashtra politicians Vilasrao Deshmukh and R.R. Patil in the future. In a 14-page e-mail sent to select television channels titled “The Rise of Jihad, revenge of Gujarat”, the Indian Mujahideen claimed responsibility for the serial blasts in Gujarat’s main city.

“You agitated our sentiments and disturbed us by arresting, imprisoning, and torturing our brothers in the name of SIMI (Students Islamic Movement of India) and the other outfits in Indore, Ujjain, Mumbai, and in other cities of Karnataka.

“We hereby notify you, especially the ATS and the STF and the governments of Madhya Pradesh and Andhra Pradesh, to release them all, lest you become our next targets and victims of our next attack,” the email read.

The mail hits out at Maharasthra Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh and Deputy Chief Minister R.R. Patil for his alleged torture of Muslim communities.

“To the Maharashtra government and Vilasrao Deshmukh and R.R. Patil, we announce the deadline to take heed before it is too late. Don’t think we are unaware of the SRPF (state reserve police force) attacks on our Masjids and our homes…” the mail said.

India’s richest man, Mukesh Ambani, is on top of the hit list of the terrorist outfit.

“We also alert Mukesh Ambani to think twice before usurping and building a citadel on a land in Mumbai that belongs to the Waqf Board, lest it turns into horrifying memories for you which you will never ever forget,” Indian Mujahideen warned.

The terrorist group also called upon the Andhra Pradesh government, specifically the Hyderabad police, to “release the imprisoned Muslim youth immediately”.

The terrorist outfit termed the serial blasts a revenge for the 2002 Gujarat riots in which over a 1,000 people, especially from the minority community, were killed.

“In the light of the injustice and wrongs on the Muslims of Gujarat, we advance our Jihad and call all our bretheren under it to unite and answer these irresolute kafireen of India,” the email said.

Using harsh language, the mail termed Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi a “spineless coward” and called Muslims to fight against Hindu groups like the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh (RSS)

Referring to the Gujjar agitation, the mail said: “If a petty population of Rajasthani Gujjars can use force for fulfilling their needs, then are we even more subjugated than these backwards?”

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 27 Jul 2008 08:26

In my opinion if we fix our own house we can take care of ISI easily.
Lets realize that fixing our own house is not that costly as going to war with Pakis. If they won't find local Jihadis, it will be hard for them to do such things. We need inspiring leader. A leader that can unite entire India.

SSridhar wrote:
ramana wrote: What takleef did he give?
Ramana, no takleef here. This confirms that it is the ISI behind these blasts. The idea is to disrupt Indian economy, which may not be the objective of SIMI. The ISI is therefore mixing the local sentiments with their own strategic goals.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 27 Jul 2008 08:58

There are many overt Paki assets among Kashmiri Sunni population. This is perfect chance to take them out to reduce the jihadi elements.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jul 2008 09:05

Muppalla wrote:Terror outfit says we did it, promises to target Mukesh Ambani, politicians

Stop posting such links in this time of emotional distress.

This is something we must examine dispassionately, without putting needless blame on innocent people in an islamism thread due to be started several months from now.

Sai · Post by **Sai** » 27 Jul 2008 09:49

Fixing our house requires, among other things, tough anti-terrorism laws. Time to bring pressure on the political establishment.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 27 Jul 2008 09:53

Sanjay M wrote:
The gist is that don't start a communal riot, and instead pursue investigations relentlessly with all available means. Catch the culprits and through the process of law, bring them to book and hang them if guilty.
And when has that ever worked in the past?

On the other hand, if one of these angry Muslim activists decides to blow up Sonia over the N-Deal, then maybe I will suggest the Gandhi family file an FIR and wait patiently for the next few decades for an answer...

So, what is your suggestion?

Instant ''justice'' through communal riots?

Or have a Guantanmo Bay and lock up all and sundry and throw away the key?

and later release them one by one and have mud on the face?

Even the most powerful politician and the only global superpower has had to eat humble pie!

Indeed, if one feels that India can withstand the heat of being an international, when the US has not been able to, then it would be real ''patriotic'' a thought.

If I may suggest being hot headed, even if justified by a dastardly event, is hardly a route to adopt in the international arena!

You must read my posts more carefully. It has not happened so far, is because the investigation agencies are not geared to relentlessly pursue a case. Why? They do not have the requisite manpower, funds or technology and I would also add expertise. My suggestion is to do what I have suggested, having made up these deficiencies.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 27 Jul 2008 10:01

R_Kumar wrote:In my opinion if we fix our own house we can take care of ISI easily.
Lets realize that fixing our own house is not that costly as going to war with Pakis. If they won't find local Jihadis, it will be hard for them to do such things. We need inspiring leader. A leader that can unite entire India.

We should fix the mothership(ISI) first. Fixing the babyships(kids produced by ISI) is not solution, but only a trap going in circle. You fix one babyship, in that time ISI will make 10 more. You keep fixing for whole your life and all Indian cities are over by that time!

Fix the mothership(ISI). Take the war to their home. Don't fight on our land. Take it to their land.

We can do this without crossing border. Just like they did.

Hint: Increase pressure points in Baluchistan and Western side of pak. Fund afghanistan.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 27 Jul 2008 10:02

RayC wrote:The gist is that don't start a communal riot, and instead pursue investigations relentlessly with all available means. Catch the culprits and through the process of law, bring them to book and hang them if guilty.

And when has that ever worked in the past?

and when has that ever been tried in the past ?

Afzal
****
That is because of political pus.syfooting.

Politics can skew even the best of systems and that cannot be taken as an input to resolving a case!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Jul 2008 10:11

Fix the mothership(ISI).

We never did that effectively. Whatever little effort was there, had been stopped by I.K. Gujral and I doubt if it was ever re-started.

The announcement yesterday in Pakistan of bringing ISI under civilian leadership is just a hogwash, to insulate the agency from the 'State within the State" tag. It will continue to function the same way because destruction of India is a national goal of the four pillars namely Islamists, Army, Bureaucrats and Elitist of the Elites. Others in Pakistan contribute their mite in this national project.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 27 Jul 2008 10:17

In so far as remarks that about IB giving info to the State police 3 days ago etc, I have seen enough of these intelligence reports.

They are all in general terms - feasibility of a X, possibility of Y, could be, may be etc. Rarely is there actionable intelligence.

Further, with these type of a CYA generalised intelligence, when routinely given, it becomes a case of crying wolf and hence the lapses.

I concede it is not possible to predict an event, but one has to know the conclusion of each of such intelligence reports so that one knows that the issue raised is over.

As an example, there was and possibly still is, ''n'' number of intelligence reports that says ''500 terrorists are training in general Area Skardu. Infiltration imminent". Good information. Then there comes another report after a month that ''600 terrorists seen training at Y. Infiltration imminent". Great. All are geared up. But what has happened to the first report of 500?

So, when these reports become routine with no follow up reports on what had been reported, then complacency sets in and people start thinking that this is but routine and half of these reports are just to justify the existence and funding of the agency.

It is a Catch 22 for those who are to take action.

Think back on Kargil and why initially what happened, happened!

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 27 Jul 2008 10:35

narayanan wrote:The hospital blasts are clearly intended to start riots, by hitting straight at whatever restraint people feel. Same tactic as burning sleeping women and children to death in the locked S-6 sleeper coach.

I have the same feeling today that I had as I saw the news flashing on the screen about the attack on the Sabarmati Express: I pray that ppl in India DON'T FALL FOR THIS INHUMAN PROVOCATION. There is a time for retaliation, but only after thought and planning, not in a lash-out fury. . WE must be the ones that choose the time and place, not the enemy. I still say that the Commie role must be investigated.

Please look at what the anti-India entities in US, UK etc, have been doing for the past 2 months. I know there has been a spike in the activities of the FOSA, "NRI_SAHI", and surely the IMC Conference where they all came together and they gave the "Tippu Sultan" award to Angana Chatterji for her activities in Orissa and AP where they have managed to light the fires well and good.

Destablizing India is big and well-funded business, guys. They assume that people in India are too lazy to look beyond their noses, and hence can be manipulated like puppets on a string. Extremely predictable. Just look at this forum!

I think the order of the day should be a kind of cold sustained fury that channels the emotions and engages the intellect in the service of destroying the enemy decisively with minimum damage to ourselves. It is time to rise above the frustration and anger we all feel, and decide to stop rushing madly about in pain as it were. We are not lacking in role models in the form of our sages and in historical times Chanakya who all relentlessly drilled their way to a long-term solution, eschewing instant gratification.

We should all decide to consistently contribute insights, take such actions as we are capable of, share such information, and learn to build on each other's work. We are dealing with a determined, intelligent, and sophisticated enemy who is, as of now, playing with us as a cat with a mouse. We can't dissipate our considerable collective resources in flaccid revenge fantasies.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 27 Jul 2008 10:38

RayC wrote:So, what is your suggestion?

Instant ''justice'' through communal riots?

I am not talking about supporting communal riots, but neither do I feel that people like Modi caused any communal riots simply because they criticized the Muslim community. To attempt to scapegoat, victimize and crucify someone for that, is to emasculate and cow all critics of Muslims through an inquisitionist reign of terror. The Leftist rats want to turn everyone into a Dara Singh, and make an example out of them.

Or have a Guantanmo Bay and lock up all and sundry and throw away the key?

and later release them one by one and have mud on the face?

Even the most powerful politician and the only global superpower has had to eat humble pie!

The so-called 'superpower' had to eat humble pie because it was being led by a member of a second-rate (Jacksonian) interest group. If we were talking about that Wilsonian stooge Clinton waging war on Serbia and emasculating it on behalf of European/Atlanticist puppetmasters, then you'll notice that no humble pie had to be eaten. All American and NATO bombardments were widely supported to the hilt, including by all the leftist "human rights" groups. They bombed a Serb TV station as a "hostile target", killing all the journalists inside, and yet no "liberal" "human rights" group raised the slightest concern.
You call that eating humble pie?
Whether or not someone has to eat humble pie is dependent upon how deviant or acquiescent they are to the interests of the dominant reigning ascendant European/Atlanticist puppetmasters who expertly shape world opinion.
Bush is out of synch with the Euro overlords, therefore they'll have him brought to heel and made to eat humble pie.

A nationalist BJP is likewise out of synch with European interests, and therefore will always be vilified by by their expert opinion shapers, and will be emasculated and made to eat humble pie.
Same thing for the Left-wing Socialist Chavez, whose defiance of European interests has also triggered an emasculation campaign against him, so that he will eventually have to eat humble pie.

All these groups are different in their ideologies and locations, but the one thing they share in common is their deviancy from European interests, which is why they will commonly share a fate of being made to eat humble pie.

Indeed, if one feels that India can withstand the heat of being an international, when the US has not been able to, then it would be real ''patriotic'' a thought.

If I may suggest being hot headed, even if justified by a dastardly event, is hardly a route to adopt in the international arena!

I don't support riots as they are wanton and unproductive, but even in my not supporting these, I will not allow the predatory opportunist Leftists to scapegoat nationalists because of riots. We all know that the Leftists have engineered many a riot themselves. Their selective outrage over riots doesn't impress me at all.

I don't feel that those who are leading inquisitions against Modi and the Gujarat riots are interested in justice at all. I feel they are trying to emasculate and intimidate the grassroots public into accepting subjugation by Left-wing political McCarthyism.

You may like Teesta Setelvad, but I think she is a predatory demagogue.

You must read my posts more carefully. It has not happened so far, is because the investigation agencies are not geared to relentlessly pursue a case. Why? They do not have the requisite manpower, funds or technology and I would also add expertise. My suggestion is to do what I have suggested, having made up these deficiencies.

It is not enough to outsource/offload civic responsibility to agencies. Civic responsibility, including national defense, is the responsibility of us all. When we delegate that responsibility to someone else, so that you and I can then sink back into our self-absorbed complacency, then we are sewing the seeds for our own demise.

No wonder the jihadis keep growing against us -- jihad is a grassroots levee-en-masse concept. Jihad has never been projected as something for someone else to do, it's always been pitched as something for each and every person to do. That's the difference between them and us.
When it comes to offense or defense, aggression or resistance, they all pitch in. Unlike we "civilized" types who want our actions and responses "carefully" channeled through the right channels. Pfft.
You may think that makes us "better" and more "civilized" but I can predict which side is going to win based on that difference in attitudes.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 27 Jul 2008 10:39

ramana wrote:Why would an Islamic outfit want do that? What takleef did he give?

he is on the hitlist of SP via Anil.

Mulayam Singh Yadav and Amar Singh should be arrested immidiately on suspiscion of being behind these blasts. Question is can the UPA govt even touch them now ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jul 2008 10:39

Just in: Police have recovered two live bombs in Ahmedabad. One of them was found in a garbage bin outside Yogeshwari Park Society in Hatkeshwar area in Eastern Ahmedabad. Police are currently defusing the bombs.

New Delhi: Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) early on Monday raided a flat in Mumbai after the Internet Protocol (IP) address of the sender of the threat e-mail warning about Ahmedabad blasts was traced to it.

The sender was tracked to flat no 1503 and 1504, Gunina Apartments in Sanpara near Navi Mumbai. The flat is registered to someone named Abhishek, but rented to two foreign nationals who work for a multinational company. The flat was rented out about five months ago.

Mumbai ATS has seized the hard disk but no arrests have been made so far. The entry and exit to the building has been sealed. The squad has not been able to contact the flat owner so far.

Mumbai Police and ATS are investigating another e-mail, which was sent out to all the Muslim Bollywood actors asking them to stop their work.

Central agencies, too, are in the process of tracing the IP address of all the e-mails that have been generated following the serial bombings.

In an all night raid, the Ahmedabad Police rounded up over 30 persons in connection with the serial blasts

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 27 Jul 2008 10:44

HuJI and SIMI are police codewords for internal mercenary group who works for the highest bidder. They are the dudes who usually have to work with SDRE gelatine sticks and ammonia explosives.

Islams is involved in these bomb blasts only by association with these disaffected individuals who pass off for rump SIMI & HuJI. These dudes have avoided arrest and have now acquired political patronage.

Pakistan is involved only by association of training these individuals at some point of time in the past with ulterior motives. But a plan couldn't completely take-off because the organisation was busted by security agencies before it could gain any momentum.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 27 Jul 2008 10:47

Muppalla wrote:What if GOI wants the riots to happen so that it can dismiss the BJP governments in KT, GUJ, MP and RJ. (This happened when Babri camedown). Once they achieve the dismissals, the Governers will do drastically Muslim friendly things viz. make all the SIMI folks as administrators under the Governer. Once Muslim polarization completes, then call elections to make them as non-BJP ruling states. (Karnataka government is most vulenarable to get dismissed)

If you connect the dots, Congress government for the past four years is trying to get back the lost base of Muslims to its fold. With SP part of it now this is more possible. In the NON-BJP parties and NON regionalist parties the fight is for the Muslim vote and they can go to any lenght to get this base. The Left parties tried to spin the Nuke deal as anti-muslim. There is a huge competition and no-holds are barred. Scew governance, scew nation are the current attitudes.

I see all over 80s and 90s style politics back in India.

That sort of thing (causing disruption so as to impose prez rule) can't be ruled out in congress party culture. However it has been relatively unused of late as a result of coalition politics. Also, these are blasts not riots, and by virtue of their sheer efficiency and discipline, they have something of an un-Indian stamp on them. (I think you-all will understand what I mean here?) And Narayanan, it doesn't seem like the communist style either. I could see the LTTE doing it (not that I think they had anything to do with it) but not, say MIM or CPM. Outfits like SIMI, LeT, HUJI etc., which have a global connection will have the coordinating mindset and training of the level that is unusual in a purely Indian official context even today (businesses being increasingly an exception I suppose).

Yes, the naxalites actually are pretty good at pulling off this sort of thing, but I don't know how much infrastructure they have in urban areas like bangalore and ahmedabad. On the other hand, naxalites don't have any particular hatred for bjp that they dont' also have for any lawful government in India. One possibility is that we might be looking at a kind of {SIMI-HUJI-LeT} and naxalite technical collaboration. An alliance of islamist extremists and naxalites has been in the offing for some time now.

prakashtirupati · Post by **prakashtirupati** » 27 Jul 2008 10:53

Five persons injured in Jharkhand blast

Sunday, July 27, 2008 (Godda (Jharkhand))
At least five persons were injured in a bomb blast near a bus stand in Godda on Sunday, police said.

''The blast took place at around 5:15 am near the bus stand,'' Superintendent of Police Jitendra Singh said.

The injured were rushed to a hospital where there conditions are stated to be out of danger, he said.

''It was a low-intensity blast,'' Singh said, adding the police is investigating the matter and a search operation was launched to identify the culprits.