Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

[madhu]

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/125-c ... la/385324/

Police had intensified raids in the area following the death of two RSS activists in a bomb explosion at nearby Cheruvanchery on Nov 10 as the youth were suspected to have been engaged in either making or shifting the crude bombs.
A day after the death of RSS men on Monday last, Police had recovered 18 crude bombs from a private plot, some 100 metres away from the site of the powerful explosion.

Though I still feel that cong(I) can never Ban RSS… if BR analysis is correct then noose is tightening for RSS also. One questions to all gurus how can cong(I) benefit for this? This will turn more heat on cong(I) from FC and educated class…

[ramana]

Madhu, Read the HFL threads to get an idea of what will be the FC and educated response.

[enqyoob]

I wonder if these were the locals who make the "kathina" for the local temples (cast iron mortar packed with gunpowder). If so it is a completely legitimate albeit hazardous occupation. My mother's oldest uncle (now long gone) lost his right thumb packing one of these. It suffered a Nussbaum Effect (spontaneous combustion).

[mayurav]

The sociologists agenda is to depress nationalism

Is the aim to prevent the rise of new global elite? And to prevent new sociopolitical models/ideas? Is the current global elite afraid of a genuine Hindu elite and genuine Hindu sociopolitical systems?

Or are they against nationalism everywhere as they see it as a barrier to nation-less world government?

[svinayak]

The sociologists agenda is to depress nationalism

Is the aim to prevent the rise of new global elite? And to prevent new sociopolitical models/ideas? Is the current global elite afraid of a genuine Hindu elite and genuine Hindu sociopolitical systems?

Or are they against nationalism everywhere as they see it as a barrier to nation-less world government?

Nationalism will remove their social engineering agenda and western trained sociologists will become insignificant.

India has been under social engineering agenda right before independence and after independence with the govt actually doing the social changes using education, media and political process. This was a joint project with external partners in UK etc.
The education system was changed from 1935 and monitored by the external govt.
This document gives some history of the control over Indian education, media and political process.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3195500/IRF-EDITED2006-Rev30

This project is grinding to a halt with resurgence in Indian society and resurgence is removing the last vestiges of the social control of the colonial rule. The change in awareness among the large population is massive and that is what this Prof from U of C is talking about.

[svinayak]

And I really hope they Ban the Bajrang Dal and also the RSS. This will backfire spectacularly.

Though I still feel that cong(I) can never Ban RSS… if BR analysis is correct then noose is tightening for RSS also. One questions to all gurus how can cong(I) benefit for this? This will turn more heat on cong(I) from FC and educated class…

I will not be surprised if BD, ABVP, VHP, and RSS are banned before upcoming parliamentary elections.

I do not think UPA will ban BJP. It will create emergency like situation and INC will be dead, once and for all…

They will have to ban BJP if VHP or RSS are banned because too many BJP members are or have been RSS members. Suddenly the big to-do about Gujarat makes sense now. The last emergency was preceded with a loss in the Gujarat assembly elections.

RSS is inside congress also. They are everywhere.
There is going to be changes in politics from now onwards. Political parties which was familiar since independence earlier may not exist in the future.

[Sanku]

RSS is inside congress also. They are everywhere. .

[svinayak]

why the surprise

[Rahul M]

nothing. happens all the time.

[svinayak]

RSS plans to be inside Indian muslims organization also

[ramana]

They have their own Muslim wing which doesnt get much attention by DIE press. there were some reports of the group visiting Gujarat. People can search for it.

[nkumar]

ramana ji is referring to Rashtravadi Muslim Manch.

Mushtaq, the eldest of Latif's six children, has joined a Sangh Parivar outfit in an effort to wipe clean any taint that remains from his father's underworld reign that was at its peak in the 80s. He is one of the 15 members of the national committee of the ‘Rashtravadi Muslim Manch' (RMM), an outfit that approves of the ideology of the RSS.

link

And this is from Tarun Vijay's blog:

But the fast-growing nationalist Muslim organization, the Rashtravadi Muslim Manch, is taking the lead when it comes to restoring harmony through various innovative schemes like collecting a million signatures from Muslims for banning cow slaughter, distancing itself from Muslim invaders who were separate from our traditions and common mother land They also oppose slaughtering cows during Eid and Hussain's nudes of Hindu goddesses. Small honest steps make a big impact in removing fossilised suspicions and distrust.

[kshirin]

Shocking and distressing that except for BR, there is saturation daily coverage of a supposed Hindu connection to a blast. But BJP is fighting back - Rajnath Singh always speaks his mind -what are the rest doing?

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/st ... 2870642500

In election season, politics over blasts in full swing
Sandeep Bhushan
Wednesday, November 12, 2008, (New Delhi)

The politics over blasts is in full swing. The BJP is accusing the Congress of communalising terror by targeting religious leaders.

"I believe that by viewing terror through the prism of communities, the Congress is playing with fire," said BJP president Rajnath Singh.

The BJP and its Parivar has up the ante on the Malegaon blasts.

With elections in the air, the initial hesitation on how to tackle the arrests of the sadhvi and her associates seem to have been replaced with a strategy to go on the offensive.

And the new offensive is to claim that the Maharashtra ATS is acting under political orders. "This is a conspiracy by the Congress against the nation by declaring nationalist, religious and cultural institutions as terrorist and declaring terrorists as humanists," said BJP MP yogi Adityanath.

Confronted by a unified and aggressive saffron Parivar, the Congress too has shed its ambivalence on so called Hindu terror. On Wednesday, Maharashtra CM Vilasrao Deshmukh had to come to the defence of the state Anti-Terror Squad, accusing the BJP of double standards over terrorism. "Congress knows that criminals have no religion, no caste. Investigations are proceeding on these lines alone," said Deshmukh. "It's quite clear that the BJP has come down to defending terrorism," said Shakeel Ahmed, spokesperson, Congress. It's quite clear that the BJP has come down to defending terrorism. But with every arrest, every revelation, the rhetoric is only likely to get more shrill.

[kshirin]

The truth has come out in this NDTV poll:

POLL »

Q. Are the police on the right track in the Malegaon blast probe?
Yes 39.8%
No 51.2%
Can't say 8.9%
Total Votes: 3767

Govt targeting Hindu leaders without evidence: Rajnath Press Trust of India
Wednesday, November 12, 2008, (Raipur)
Main opposition BJP on Wednesday accused the Congress-led UPA government of 'targeting' Hindu religious leaders by linking them to incidents of bomb blasts without 'sufficient evidence'.

The opposition party also came to the defence of Yogi Adityanath, BJP MP from Gorakhpur, whose name reportedly figured in the investigation into the Malegaon blasts case.

"Linking Adityanath to the (Malegaon blast) case is not procedural but political," BJP chief Rajnath Singh told reporters.

"Without sufficient evidence, the government is targeting Hindu religious leaders and ashrams. We find these actions of the government suspicious," he said.

Maintaining that the BJP was not against any probe, Singh said his party would oppose "distorted propaganda" against religious leaders.

"The use of phrases like Hindu terrorism has political overtones," Singh said, adding that "it is unimaginable that Yogi Adityanath could be involved in any violent activities".

The BJP chief claimed that linking the BJP MP to the blast case was an attempt to malign the Goraksh Peeth which is revered by crores of people.

"This government is confused on the issue of terrorism. It cannot view terrorism and Muslim community as two separate issues," he said.

Singh said linking some Army officers to the blast case without proper evidence would demoralise the armed forces.

[kshirin]

More on NDTV

BJP MP accuses Congress of conspiracy in Malegaon probe
Press Trust of India
Tuesday, November 11, 2008, (Gorakhpur(UP))
As Maharashtra's ATS prepared to interrogate a "high profile" leader from Uttar Pradesh in connection with Malegaon blasts, BJP MP and religious leader Yogi Adityanath on Tuesday accused the Congress of hatching a conspiracy to defame Hindu organisations.

Adityanath also dared Home Minister Shivraj Patil to take action against Sangh parivar leaders from his Gorakhpur parliamentary constituency in the probe by the Anti-Terrorism Squad(ATS).

"The ATS is acting under the instructions of the Congress. There is a dangerous conspiracy going on where an attempt is being made to prove that RSS is a terrorist organisation," he alleged while charging that the ongoing probe in the Malegaon case is unfair.

The ATS probe in the Malegaon blasts is a "pack of lies and utter rubbish", he said.

Adityanath's statement came a day after the ATS was granted permission by a Nashik court to question a "high profile" person in UP amid reports that he is a spiritual leader.

Sadhvi Pragya Singh and Lt Col S P Purohit, a serving Army officer, are among those arrested in connection with the Malegaon blasts and are believed to be the main conspirators.

There were reports that the leader planned to be quizzed in UP had meetings with the Sadhvi and the army officer.

Another Hindu leader Swami Ramdev meanwhile defended Pragya Thakur saying it looks like she is "innocent." He wondered what was the need for the Sadhvi to be subjected to four narco tests.

[nkumar]

Nagori narco test calls ATS bluff

Rakesh K Singh | New Delhi

SIMI chief admits to role of banned outfit, jihadi elements in Samjhauta, 2006 Malegaon blasts

Gives clean chit to Army officer Purohit, Sadhvi Pragya

The report of the narco analysis test on SIMI commander Safdar Nagori and his close aides takes the wind out of the Mumbai Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS) probe into the possible involvement of Hindu outfits and Army officers in the Samjhauta Express train blasts. Based on the ATS claims, a Haryana railway police team reached Mumbai on Thursday to interrogate Malegaon blast case suspects Lt Col Srikant Prasad Purohit and Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur.

The findings of the narco test of Safdar Nagori and his associates, Kamruddin Nagori and Aamil Parvez, show no involvement of Purohit and Sadhvi’s in the Samjhauta Express blasts. On the contrary, they admitted the involvement of the SIMI and jihadi elements behind the train carnage and Malegaon blasts of 2006.

The narco analysis test reports of the trio are with the ATS, Mumbai, which had also questioned the trio arrested by the Madhya Pradesh Police in March.

A joint director-level official of the operations branch of the Intelligence Bureau, responsible for the parallel investigation into the Malegaon blasts, said the Mumbai ATS claims about the involvement of the Sadhvi and Purohit are “far-fetched” as SIMI’s involvement in the case is “beyond reasonable doubt”.

Apart from the Samjhauta Express and Malegaon blasts, Nagori and his associates have also confessed to SIMI’s role and involvement of Muslims in terror attacks in Mumbai, Aurangabad, Hyderabad, Ajmer and the shootout at the American consulate in Kolkata.

Nagori told the team of doctors of FSL, Bangalore, “In the Samjhauta Express blasts, some persons from Pakistan had come and they had purchased the suitcase cover at Kataria Market, Indore. One person from (SIMI) Tanzeem had helped them to get the suitcase cover stitched. SIMI leader Abdul Razak had helped the Pakistanis in the Samjhauta Express blasts.”

Nagori also revealed that Razak had informed him beforehand about the Samjhauta Express blasts. Razak had sought the help of West Bengal SIMI president Misbah-ul-Islam for the Samjhauta explosions. Razak has a number of relatives in Pakistan, according to Nagori’s revelations. Kamruddin Nagori also concurred about Razak’s involvement in the Samjhauta Express blasts.

Kamruddin said during drug interrogation, “There were good relations between Safdar Nagori and Abdul Razak. Abdul Razak had discussed the Samjhauta Express blasts with Safdar Nagori.”

The banned outfit’s commander revealed that meetings were held by SIMI at Kurla, Kapadia Nagar and Mira Road in Mumbai for executing the terror attacks on Samjhauta Express and other blasts in the country. During the drug interrogation, Nagori revealed that SIMI has a strong presence in Maharashtra, including Malegaon, and he was “aware of the complicity of Muslims in the 2006 Malegaon blasts”.The 32-page narco analysis test report of Safdar Nagori, Kamruddin and Aamil Parzez quotes Nagori as having said, "In the Malegaon blasts (2006), some of the Muslim members were involved and that he (Nagori) was aware of it. SIMI members were involved in the Samjhauta Express train blasts."

Nagori said, "The Maharashtra SIMI members were to take houses on rent to take shelter and to complete the tasks and targets given to them… They were often changing their hideouts." He admitted that some terrorists from Pakistan had also come to Mumbai and the entire SIMI network in Maharashtra was involved in the Samjhauta Express blasts.

The report states, "He (Nagori) said Asif Khan from Maharashtra is his (Nagori's) friend and that he is involved in the Mumbai train blasts and the blast at Aurangabad. After the blasts, Abdul Subhan alias Tauqeer and Asif Khan had gone to Hafeez's house for hiding but did not find him at his place. Asif Khan met Tanvir and Yasir of Sholapur and they both arranged a hideout at Belgaum. Later, Asif was arrested from Belgaum."

The chargesheet in the Malegaon blasts (2006) case filed by the ATS, Mumbai, concedes the "extensive presence" of SIMI in Malegaon and the outfit's anti-India designs for waging a war against the Government.

[enqyoob]

This is the Stalin Model of Investigation.

JS: "My gold watch is missing! Solve this crime!"

NKVD: Of course, Comrade! Immediately Comrade!

JS, 6 hours later: "Never mind, I found my watch in the pocket of my Lenin Jacket."

NKVD: "But Comrade, we have solved the crime already. 6 suspects have confessed and been executed".

Mumbai ATS: A brain is such a useless thing to scan!

[shyam]

Report doesn't say who really administered narco-test on Nagori and who is that investigation agency.

[fanne]

ATS has confirmed that Sadhvi and Lt Col were behind 911 (Ramana had pointed that possibility first, but ATS has now confirmed it). A Hindu leader from Kannaur is to be picked in this regard. The Rdx (and the plane) was sourced by important Hindu leaders from Ranchi and Patna. The tickets were baught by NRIs, by a lady someone like S. Shah. Maharastra ATS is going to quiz all of these. Acertain CM of a Communal party had played important part in the conspiracy to assasinate Mahatama Gandhi in 1948.

Thanks,

[Muppalla]

Report doesn't say who really administered narco-test on Nagori and who is that investigation agency.

MP police did it and they did it in a Bangalore lab.

http://www.zeenews.com/Nation/2008-04-1 ... 0news.html

more about the person http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safdar_Nagori

[ramana]

Report doesn't say who really administered narco-test on Nagori and who is that investigation agency.

Most likely under the IB guidance as the official is a Joint Diretor level of the Operaton branch briefing the reporter.

Guys read the whole report slowly sentence by sentence. How can two different individuals confess to same crime under narco test unless they are double blind covert operation? Most likely its an ISI/massa hath with wheels within wheels. Now I understand Gen Paddy's book.

[shyam]

Thanks Muppalla. That test was done way back in April 10.

Looks like noose is going to tighten around CongI.

Another thing I observed is that all these sensational news appear only on Indian media, not on international media like BBC.

[fanne]

Ramna can you be less criptic and inform the less informed please. Few lines would help.
TIA

[ramana]

Ramna can you be less criptic and inform the less informed please. Few lines would help.
TIA

fanne, You too. What I am saying is if ATS and MP police is truthful, then both Purohit (MI) and Nagori (SIMI) confessed to same inicdent. How can that be unless there is a covert op to use SIMI to carry out incidents. Now who has contacts with SIMI? So Purohit might have recruited the SIMI guy who was a double agent. For whom? Off course all this assumes ATS is a honest police agency acting in a non political manner.

[fanne]

I meant the Gen. Paddy part. What about it. (I have not read that book).

[svinayak]

I meant the Gen. Paddy part. What about it. (I have not read that book).

His book says that western nations have connection to outfits like SIMI

[fanne]

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1081114/j ... 109145.jsp

Lucknow/Srinagar, Nov. 13: Years before he became a self-styled shankaracharya, Dayanand Pandey was Sudhakar Dwivedi, a 20-something trainee at the elite National Defence Academy (NDA) in Khadakvasla, police said today.

He dropped out of the military school near Pune in 1989 to become Hindu seer Dayanand Pandey and plunged himself into the aggressive politics of the Bajrang Dal in Varanasi.

“Pandey was an NDA trainee in the air force wing. But he dropped out. He was in NDA Khadakvasla for six months in 1989 and then quit,” said an Uttar Pradesh police officer of the rank of inspector-general.



So my question is Dayanand Pandey NOC?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-official_cover

This looks more and more as intelligence ops made to go wrong. The police have been let loose on MI.

So here is my theory. Jammu agitation was the one that turned the tide against this government big time. (Not that the various terrorist attack would not have eventually. Congress initiated many movements to gain political advantage. Amarnath land controversy (to gain minority vote), Gujjar agitation, MNS, Orrissa (Rahul has been making frequent visit, sometime deep in Naxal area and disappearing for 12 hours), another minority movement in Karnataka (by alleging Hindu conspiracy against many false attacks). Almost all of them have backfired except of MNS. But its biggest failure has been Amarnath controversy. The character shown by the Amarnath committee was exceptional and has very rare occurrence in Indian history. It seams that MI or some part of it, or the people with whom MI worked (If you pull up many ex-RAW chief memoirs, they would say, they would go to some radical Hindu group to seak recruits who would cross the border and spy for them) supported it. Congress then decided to fix these MI and maybe it orchestrated these things through MI to fix all of them (kind of honey trap). What do you think?

[Muppalla]

What they are doing to MI is similar to what late PM Morarjee Desai did to RAW.

[enqyoob]

I wonder what would happen if they arrested the Maharashtra CM and put him under narco-test (voluntarily of course, at gunpoint after breaking his fingers). If someone suggested "Malegaon" wouldn't he start blabbering? SURELY that is evidence that he KNOWS something about Malegaon bum? The "brain-scan" is a different matter. Using it on politicians may be a waste of time.

The real issue here is that the credibility of Indian terrorism investigations has been totally destroyed - torture, beatings, crooked "narco-tests" , and different people confessing to the same crime. Inspecteur Clouseau and Barney Fife would be no match for this. Heads need to roll in these agencies, at least for conducting their "investigations" through the media.

Ramana, I seriously doubt if this was any "wheels within wheels". Two completely different organizations and logistics chains are being alleged, by two different "confessions" to the same crime.

If one were to write an article on this, one could get into a lot of trouble for making people

[Raju]

It is possible Purohit was a double agent, for massa and Indian MI. And thus the RSS, VHP quickly washed its hands off him and Rajnath Singh was reduced to making political defence.

[enqyoob]

But since SIMI was involved, if could have been the Mossad and the KGB too? My bet is that it was Opus Dei.

Meanwhile, this just in:

Maharashtra ATS raids homes in Colorado. Hindu suspects arrested from UP have already confessed, says ATS

[ramana]

What has the National Insecurity Adviser to say about all this? Too quiet when such a case is unravelling.

[munna]

A short story:

Long back in the times gone by there lived a queen who was the champion of the downtrodden and persecuted . She and her minister did all they could to protect the Poor Persecuted People (PPPs) from the evil clutches of the pagans who were out to pollute the purer way of life that the PPPs led. Concerned at the bigotry and evil practices prevalent amongst the pagans the PPPs took it upon themselves to correct the pagans by launching a holy direct action against the pagans (the second in the history of the kingdom). Unable to control the PPPs and their legitimate assertion of primary right to all the natural, cultural and moral resources of the nation the queen gave the issue some thought. After some thought thus she spake " The PPPs are always just and moral in their response to social and national stimuli hence it must be the pagans who are inviting the wrath upon themselves!" Her minister nodded in agreement and added that the culpability of pagans in sponsoring their own genocide cannot be ignored.
A few months later when the pagan protests grew louder with their native chiefs making a huge sound and noise about the reign of death and destruction the queen and her cabinet were concerned indeed. Meanwhile the PPPs decided to teach a lesson or two to the heretics amongst them along with the accursed pagans! The deaths of some PPPs gave the queen the ultimate proof of pagan culpability in their own genocide that was needed. The entire court comprising of balladeers, ministers, jesters and regional satraps were overcome with joy and chanted Karamat (miracle) Karamat (miracle). Sensing the opportunity to bring the pagan culpability to the light a satrap from west was entrusted to hunt down the pagan pests and some high sounding senanis to give credence to their bagaawat(revolt)/rashtra droh(treason) theory of pagan terrorism.
With pagan ranks over come with confusion and lack of cohesion the balladeers declared pagans to be the threat number 1 while the Eastern flank of the kingdom burned with hell fires. Meanwhile pagans, senanis and other assorted pagans were being tortured to reveal the 400% more violence that they were supposed to have committed.

To be continued........

[Sanku]

Meanwhile UPA leaves no stone upturned for appeasement of fundamentalists while attacking the nationalist Indians

Taslima Nasreen 'forced' to leave India again

[neelkamal]

goes toshow, just to keep your mind open start reading news/discussions from websites, instead of just news on TV. certainly keeps my views balanced.
learnt to wait instead of jumping to judge somebody, anybody in fact.

Just now, I saw on the TV that everybody was distancingthemselves of the swami arrested.
and that there were news that he was tortured.

Shiv, do you truly believe that this is all just hog wash and that people arrested are pawns of political game ?

I always want justice to win (which it usually doesnt or takes hell of a lot of time by which time it is too late), India mein to yehi kahani hai.

[shiv]

Shiv, do you truly believe that this is all just hog wash and that people arrested are pawns of political game ?
.

I have no idea and no opinion on this.

My only opinion is based on deciding whether terrorism by Hindu groups should somehow get a "natural and unavoidable terrorism" tag so that Hindus can also have a gang of liberals who write articles and say

"Not all Hindus are terrorists, but there is anger at the destruction of Somnath and other temples. If unemployment and poverty and other grievances among Hindu youth is addressed by a truly secular government terrorism would automatically stop"

Until now I have only read people writing

"Not all Muslims are terrorists, but there is anger at the destruction of Babri Masjid and the Gujarat killings. If unemployment and poverty and other grievances among Muslim youth is addressed by a truly secular government terrorism would automatically stop"

My worry is that cracking down on Hindu terrorism hard would also mean cracking down hard on Muslim terrorism and that might hurt some of our Muslim brothers. Hindus of course - should be tolerant. The other choice is to let all terrorism run concurrently and find good excuses to say why all are happening in thoughtful liberal articles.

That way only a few people will keep getting killed - but so long as it is some fruit vendors and all - no problem. Innit? Security forces are anyway meant to be killed - after all we liberals always like to ask why a security man was not killed when a terrorist is killed. Hain? We need to be liberal about death also

[sum]

Seeing the relentless(and not so neutral) coverage of the Malegaon blast investigations by all the "secular" channels, i would imagine that this has even overtaken the 911 coverage by the American media...I have never seen such continous coverage of any blast earlier,however lethal...even the Jamia incident went off the boil after 3-4 days.

A person coming back to earth after leaving for a space visit immediately after 9/11/2001 would assume that a second 911 has occurred in India if he follows the Indian media for a couple of days.

[shiv]

Cross post from Paki thread and my reply:

From NUGGETS posted by Sridhar-saar:

Mir noted that Indian and Hindu journalists kept needling China on the question of Tibet.

what is the difference between the two(Hindu and Indian journalists)?

Or should we take the meaning as India is Hindu and Hindu is India?

In fact that is what this Paki means.

The Pakistanis have always tried to portray India as being "Hindu" with only pretend secularism while Indians have done backward somersaults to try and prove the Pakis wrong. Indian fake seculairism is at least in part a massive exercise in proving (mainly to Pakistan) that there is hardly any Hindu in India.

The deepest significance of the existential game played between India and Pakistan is not evident to most people.

From 1947 India has tried to prove that a "Pure Islamic state" cannot work.

For its part,Pakistan has tried to prove, right from 1947 that India is a "Hindu state" in which non Hindus will not survive.

In many ways Pakistan's strategy was the easier and more successful one, except that at a fundamental level Islam cannot survive with 100% Muslims. It just splinters up and Muslims start murdering each other - a fact that Muslims have not yet gained the gyan (have not evolved far enough intellectually as a whole) to admit.

But Pakistan's strategy was a good one because it was constantly putting pressure on India to be good to its own minorities while Pakistan itself did not accept any responsibility to care a fart for minorities in Pakistan. So if Indian minorities were seen to be protesting Pakistan got two trump cards to beat India with:
1) Point out that non Hindus cannot survive in India
2) Give moral and military support to dissident groups.

On the other hand India, because it was continuously hooting that it had more Muslims than Pakistan, was compelled to treat its own Muslims better than Pakistan, to prove a point. This contention was the basis for my BRM/SRR article The public treatment of Indian Muslims "favorably" has pissed off the Indian population in many ways - much to Pakistan's pleasure. But India has erred in trying to please Pakistan in its treatment of Indian Muslims rather than looking at what is required to make Indians live in peace with each other.

The fact that Hindus have continuously been unhappy with the way Hindus religious funds and temple management has been appropriated by government has been ignored. Also ignored is the fact that Hindus see it as a travesty that the government bends over backwards to provide funds for madrassas and subsidize the Haj. All this has been done for the twin effect of "showing to the world" (i.e. Pakistan) that Muslims are treated well (or better) in India than in Pakistan while the Indian government can safely trample on Hindus who do not have any sentiment.

This in fact adds to the overall feeling that Hindus are pushovers. In that sense Indian governments have been playing with fire and that fire is just beginning to show itself.

To repeat a point that I have made earlier, the gradual failure of Pakistan as a state has given the best proof to the entire world that splitting off a nation in the name of Islam is tho the must successful survival strategy for a nation in the world. The fact that Islam will not allow itself to be blamed is an even bigger source of happiness and ROTFL to observers in India. So Pakistanis will blame everything except the fundamental cause of their failure - pure Islam.

In the meantime Hindus in India have suddenly woken up and realised that if "pure islamic" Pakistan is a failure maybe secular India is the reason for its success. That is what they have been made to believe anyway. If secularism is the reason for India's success why is it that minorities in India need special treatment? If secular India is such a big success why is it that Muslims still claim grievances and still say that they have less education and less employment despite being given what seems to be preferential treatment in India. If Hindus were a major reason for India's past failures, surely those same Hindus are now a major reason for India's current success.

And for over a decade we have been faced with terrorism by self confessed islamic groups. The Indian government calls for more secularism and calls for more reservation for minorities who have shown little propensity for getting off their backsides and removing the worst aspects of their lives that stop them from moving ahead, egged and cheered on by "We are secular, let us prove our secular credentials to Pakistan" governments in India

To any observer among Hindus the lesson is clear. It is necessary to agitate and be violent. The Indian government will bend and listen to violence and grievances. Hindus are reaching the same conclusions about the Indian leadership and the Indian politician's way of governance as Pakistan did ages ago. Agitate, Terrorize. And squeeze out concessions or make them bend.

All that is required now to cause a future explosion is to put down Hindu agitation with an iron fist and go slow on terrorism from Islamic groups. It is the Indian system of fake secular governance that is being tested here. How much longer can Hindu opinions - that have always been there as far as I can remember be ignored as if it is some new fangled excuse being cooked up by Modi and Advani?

Modi and Advani realise they the become stronger as long as Indian governance ignores the fact that secularism has been used to hit Hindus on the head to prove a point against Pakistan. How much more proof is required to show who is "right"?

Pakistan is failing. Even Indian Muslims, who have been given everything India can offer and more are howling that they are not getting enough. Whose fault is this? Are Hindus responsible for this?

Should Hindus take the blame for lack of development of Muslims in India?
Should "secular India" take the blame for lack of development of Muslims in India?
Should Muslims take the blame?

If "secular India" must take the blame and all Indians should help bring up the status of Muslims and minorities in India, then it means that at least 80% of the money and effort for improving the 20% has to come from Hindus. Can Hindus be dismissed that easily as not having any identity or voice in India?

[vsudhir]

To any observer among Hindus the lesson is clear. It is necessary to agitate and be violent. The Indian government will bend and listen to violence and grievances.

This part is scary.

Recall the grievance of the jammuites that erupted in mass protests this yr. And that of the Ladakhis also. The the valley IMs are getting preferential treatment because they are openly anti-India.

But shiv saar, lemme play devil's advocate here. Isn't GoI being chanakyan in egging TSP to be ever more islamic by not obliging them their pet fantasies about eevil yindia? Coz the best way to consign TSP to the dustbin is to get them to be ever more islamic than they already are. And whilst TSP is alive, not bending over backwards to accomodate the restive minorities would've entailed civil war on a nascent, struggling India. No?

Once TSP is gone (it has already outlived its usefulness to its western sponsors), J&K among other problems can be solved much more steadily and the ghost of nehruvian secularism can finally and formally be laid to rest. Let a secularism with Indian characteristics - that enshrines respect to all religions - rise up in its stead.

[samuel]

If "secular India" must take the blame and all Indians should help bring up the status of Muslims and minorities in India, then it means that at least 80% of the money and effort for improving the 20% has to come from Hindus. Can Hindus be dismissed that easily as not having any identity or voice in India?

Is this our inheritance from Bapuji's legacy. I am saddened he passed away before a course correction could be made. What would he have done, if he were around. I consider him one of the most genuine seculars.

I can see how the appeasement strategy was the only one left to hold on to Punjab and beyond, but entirely meaningless once it left our hands.

No disrespect to bapu, but how did this continue past 1947, just plain vote-bank politics?

S