National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 Nov 2009 23:15

RayC-ji,

What you forgot to observe is the the so-called RSS Colonel joined a political party of his choice after his army stint, that too BJP, which is perceived as a Hindu nationalist party. Why talking about others, your own perspective on religion and faith did not change even after a long service in armed services. Being part of armed services is just a job for majority of the people and it is just one of the many ways to serve one’s mother country.

The professionalism that one sees in armed services also exists in corporate sector, and to a major extent even in any other public administration department. People from many faiths and classes work side by side in a professional manner day-in and day-out.

So thinking that armed services somehow removes one’s religious believes or stops one from being susceptible to one’s ideological-pulls during or after his service in armed service is naïve.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Nov 2009 23:31

RayC wrote

Let us not get into why you seem to have insecurity and consider anything written as a personal attack on you. Please desist from assuming yourself the mantle as the sole poster. There are many intellectuals, self assumed if you wish. You are not the sole self assumed 'intellectual'.

It was you who made the comment "time to smell the coffee" and not "show intellectual hoohah". Anything that you do not understand is to be derided as "intellectual hoohah". You have included me as one of the "self assumed intellectuals". If you cannot show this, you should apologize and withdraw your comment. You have also said that there are many such "posters". Do give a list of such posters and also prove your claim for such posters.

Please address the issues rather than deflect. I have clearly indicated what the army officer indicated. Address that!

It is you who consitently deviated from the issue. The question was whether the conditions under which apparent lack of religious effects in the functioning of the army could be reproduced or comparable to the wider framework of the nation. If the essential features that produce such an effect within the army cannot be reproduced in the national scene - what is the use of proposing such models for the nation?

What if the Army leadership is not amenable to electoral and religious pressures? Are they not part of the Indian polity? Or have they descended from Mars? Get to the brasstacks of discussion. It is time you learn to use plain English and straight ideas and not obfuscate with fanciful expressions.

It is time you understood basic logical arguments. The straight argument is that the army is not amenable to electoral and religious constituency pressures and hence it can behave in ways which a national government cannot - because it is dependent on electoral approval. If there are constitutional and systemic protections and guarantees for claims of religious exclusivities in the wider national framework then such religious identities will have the power and will use such power to hold the national government to ransom. It is not a simple question of leadership. Even "stalwarts" like JLN or Sardar could not go against a minority religions threat and use of violence.

Who the Dickens has told you that the religious identity will not be given consideration as far as resource/reward/penalties? Please desist from being a ‘sub janta’! I am afraid you know nothing and attempting to be knowledgeable. There are many very religious people in the Army!

Yes, there would most likely be respect and facilitation as much as possible of religious practices and beliefs. What will get into your head that I have very clearly said that the degree of accommodation of special treatment and exclusivity demanded of by religious groups out in the wider democratic national structure is of magnitudes greater than what can ever be within the army. You should also stop pretending to be a "sabjanta" by assuming to know that we don't know! How many Muslim units do you have by name - clearly indicating the religious affiliation of that unit - in the army? How many "Christian" units do you have within the army by name and religious identity? Do you have army regulations that such units can have their own rules and can depart from other army units in their organization? Do such religious units have recognized electoral power to elect representatives to the upper command levels?

Why do you have to twist the real argument into something you can chew up with your limited repertoire of analysis? Spare me your standard disclaimer - "you obfuscate, and it is not my fault that you cannot state clearly". No amount of clarity will get through the point to you, since you will refuse to see any point that does not suit your own mindset.

No you are totally wrong when you state - Replication of that model on the societal and national scale means putting up a military dictatorship which does not have to bow to electoral pressures, which delinks religious identities completely from state-interaction with individuals and has no recognition to claims of religious exclusivity (just as the underlying question in the Sikh soldiers question about Christmas was being tackled). We embody Unity in Diversity!

You can embody such "unity in diversity" because religion is not recognized as one of the primary foundations of interactions between various subgroups within the army, esepecially where its operational activity are concerned. If you say, that religious identity is given consideration when sending troops to face field operations then you will contradict your own claims.

Why have it as a motto if we, as a Nation, cannot accept it and people like you want to live in past, divide India?!

You will have to prove that I want to live in the past, and divide India. If you cannot you should resign from your position as a moderator, since you then prove yourself to be highly biased and with personal axes to grind. I could be wrong, but I do not think you have that sort of moral and ethical fibre (i.e. to resign if proved in the wrong) in you in spite of all your bluster.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 29 Nov 2009 05:52

Although army has theologians recruited for every religion, their business is limited strictly to moksha-maarga of the soldier. The theologian wields no influence on decision making of the armed forces.This is the model that must be ideally replicated in civil society. How can that be done?

1. by social reformation - changing the hearts of people by the means of grand social awakening.

advantages - sustainable, dharmic, evolutionary and in coherence with what India stands for

drawbacks - too slow.. so slow that it won't happen.

OR

2. political reformation - political class growing balls to take decisions to eliminate the influence of theologian's opinion on anything except moksha-marga.. They should not have any influence on Dharma-Artha-Kama aspects of the follower's life.

advantages - faster and real way of achieving social reformation. Chanakya says polity is mother of all other sciences because polity influences and nourishes other science far more profoundly than any other science can dream of.

drawbacks - entrenched mercantile and mercenary character of Indian politicians coupled with no warranty of retaining of power, in case section of society is hurt

OR

3. The policy makers (babucracy) is reformed and starts implementing the right decision by coaxing their ministers.

advantages - same as those of 2 plus, the disadvantage of 2 is negated here since babu is assured of permanence of his power, unlike elected candidate.

drawbacks - possible complete lack of knowledge of ground realities. Babus tend to live in their bubble, given a chance. The elitism (of such high degree) may not make the process sustainable.

OR

4. military dictator ship OR monarchy.

advantages - sums up all the advantages of points 2, 3, 4.

Disadvantages - sums up all the drawbacks of 2, 3, 4. Plus, the fact that with time absolute power corrupts absolutely.

OR

5. Dream scenario - A Philosopher King (monarch/dictator) who powerful enough to win his own hunger for lasting power and gives up power back to people within some time span.

OR

6. More likely scenario - authoritarian leader like {edit} takes over, screws asses, get right things done then if he goes overboard, he is removed from power by people.

ashkrishna · Post by **ashkrishna** » 29 Nov 2009 06:31

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Nov 2009 07:15

Chiron-ji,

Let us not build National Agenda based on individuals.

My friendly request is to remove that reference, so the discussion doesn't get diverted.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 29 Nov 2009 08:00

RamaY wrote:RayC-ji,

What you forgot to observe is the the so-called RSS Colonel joined a political party of his choice after his army stint, that too BJP, which is perceived as a Hindu nationalist party. Why talking about others, your own perspective on religion and faith did not change even after a long service in armed services. Being part of armed services is just a job for majority of the people and it is just one of the many ways to serve one’s mother country.

What you fail to realise and understand, he was an RSS man BEFORE he joined the Army.

And RSS is dedicated to Hinduism, even if the BJP has a secular agenda mixed with Hinduism.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 29 Nov 2009 09:11

brihaspati wrote:RayC wrote

Let us not get into why you seem to have insecurity and consider anything written as a personal attack on you. Please desist from assuming yourself the mantle as the sole poster. There are many intellectuals, self assumed if you wish. You are not the sole self assumed 'intellectual'.
It was you who made the comment "time to smell the coffee" and not "show intellectual hoohah". Anything that you do not understand is to be derided as "intellectual hoohah". You have included me as one of the "self assumed intellectuals". If you cannot show this, you should apologize and withdraw your comment. You have also said that there are many such "posters". Do give a list of such posters and also prove your claim for such posters.

Please address the issues rather than deflect. I have clearly indicated what the army officer indicated. Address that!
It is you who consitently deviated from the issue. The question was whether the conditions under which apparent lack of religious effects in the functioning of the army could be reproduced or comparable to the wider framework of the nation. If the essential features that produce such an effect within the army cannot be reproduced in the national scene - what is the use of proposing such models for the nation?

What if the Army leadership is not amenable to electoral and religious pressures? Are they not part of the Indian polity? Or have they descended from Mars? Get to the brasstacks of discussion. It is time you learn to use plain English and straight ideas and not obfuscate with fanciful expressions.
It is time you understood basic logical arguments. The straight argument is that the army is not amenable to electoral and religious constituency pressures and hence it can behave in ways which a national government cannot - because it is dependent on electoral approval. If there are constitutional and systemic protections and guarantees for claims of religious exclusivities in the wider national framework then such religious identities will have the power and will use such power to hold the national government to ransom. It is not a simple question of leadership. Even "stalwarts" like JLN or Sardar could not go against a minority religions threat and use of violence.

Who the Dickens has told you that the religious identity will not be given consideration as far as resource/reward/penalties? Please desist from being a ‘sub janta’! I am afraid you know nothing and attempting to be knowledgeable. There are many very religious people in the Army!
Yes, there would most likely be respect and facilitation as much as possible of religious practices and beliefs. What will get into your head that I have very clearly said that the degree of accommodation of special treatment and exclusivity demanded of by religious groups out in the wider democratic national structure is of magnitudes greater than what can ever be within the army. You should also stop pretending to be a "sabjanta" by assuming to know that we don't know! How many Muslim units do you have by name - clearly indicating the religious affiliation of that unit - in the army? How many "Christian" units do you have within the army by name and religious identity? Do you have army regulations that such units can have their own rules and can depart from other army units in their organization? Do such religious units have recognized electoral power to elect representatives to the upper command levels?

Why do you have to twist the real argument into something you can chew up with your limited repertoire of analysis? Spare me your standard disclaimer - "you obfuscate, and it is not my fault that you cannot state clearly". No amount of clarity will get through the point to you, since you will refuse to see any point that does not suit your own mindset.

No you are totally wrong when you state - Replication of that model on the societal and national scale means putting up a military dictatorship which does not have to bow to electoral pressures, which delinks religious identities completely from state-interaction with individuals and has no recognition to claims of religious exclusivity (just as the underlying question in the Sikh soldiers question about Christmas was being tackled). We embody Unity in Diversity!
You can embody such "unity in diversity" because religion is not recognized as one of the primary foundations of interactions between various subgroups within the army, esepecially where its operational activity are concerned. If you say, that religious identity is given consideration when sending troops to face field operations then you will contradict your own claims.

Why have it as a motto if we, as a Nation, cannot accept it and people like you want to live in past, divide India?!
You will have to prove that I want to live in the past, and divide India. If you cannot you should resign from your position as a moderator, since you then prove yourself to be highly biased and with personal axes to grind. I could be wrong, but I do not think you have that sort of moral and ethical fibre (i.e. to resign if proved in the wrong) in you in spite of all your bluster.

It is true that one finds it quite difficult to understand your posts since it is layered. It is not my opinion alone.

On the issue of Army not being a model for the Nation, is the other question. If the same stock of the population can unite beyond narrow divides, what perplexes us in the Army is that what is the shortcomings in the Nation that prevents it from being One! It is not my view alone; I only presented what another officer wrote. If the RSS person I wrote about (and he was in the RSS BEFORE he joined the Army) can join the Army, shed his religious fervour, be a good soldier, command an all faith unit without any qualms, why can’t the rest of the Nation? What is stopping us is the question.

One sees here how people wax eloquence of Indic values, spiritual goodness and rant against Abrahamic religions and its onslaught. Unless we build an environment that is sterile (and yet strong in their own faith individually), our Nation can never be able to meet the challenges that we all talk about i.e. be able to take on our adversaries, economically strong, etc and find our rightful place in the sun. We talk about Indic values – is krod (anger) and Hinsha (hatred) not anti Indic?

What the Army officer wrote about religion, hatred and the Nation vis a vis the Army ethos is what perplexes. The Army is manned by the same Indians as is the civil world. Therefore, what are the factors that somehow cannot be replicated in the civil world is the question. If we are to be a fractured society, then how will be progress? That is the question.

People here talk about being enslaved, upholding Indic values, onslaught of Abrahamic religion and all that. If we are not to be enslaved again (neo colonialism), uphold the Indic values and prevent the onslaught of Abrahamic religions, we have to have a neutral environment which permits oneness of the Nation. How can we achieve it if we continuously harp and highlight our differences with so much of venom? That is the worry. We all feel we were great, want to be great and yet not work towards it.

True that the government responds to electoral pressures and the Army does not. If there is a concerted effort, then surely the country can change. Imagine even though there was bloodbath during the Partition and the communities should have been polarised, the concept of secularism has been drummed in and most accept it even if grudgingly. (Even the BJP has embraced secularism). It should have been an alien concept, especially for those who have had their relations and loved ones butchered during the Partition and those who lost their home and hearth and became destitute. Therefore, with persuasion and constant hammering in, a mindset can be changed. Schools can do the groundwork to bring in unity. So long as we have this idea of majority and minority or divide society with various types of reservations, we can never have unity as a Nation.

The Assam Regt and the Naga Regt are Christian majority. JAK LI is Muslim. So, we do have such units. Even the Grenadiers have Muslim units! So, it is not merely a Hindu majority organisation. No unit can make their own rules, but then can the Nation have Sharia overriding the civil law? Personal belief all can have in the Army or in the Nation, but it cannot override the law of the land.

Continuous harping over our divides and of Abrahamic religions practically taking over the country is dividing the Nation instead of building it as one. Threads after threads are being setup to discuss this and this alone in a surreptitious manner. Shiv mentioned it also in one of the threads. These threads start with high ideals and then degenerate into religion bashing. Therefore, the issue of resigning as a Moderator does not arise. It is a task of the Moderator to ensure that religion bashing does not become a popular pastime. This much you must understand before you rave and rant over morals and ethics. It is an ethical and moral thing to ensure that we uphold secularism and keep the Nation as one. We cannot poison minds. Be good enough to understand that I say things upfront and am ready to accept the flak without using the mukhawta/ mukhosh (mask) of a Moderator. Being a Moderator is secondary, bringing unity in this Nation is my primary concern! As is enshrined in the Army ethos - "The safety, honour and welfare of your country come first, always and every time".

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 29 Nov 2009 18:34

RayC wrote:Therefore, the issue of resigning as a Moderator does not arise. It is a task of the Moderator to ensure that religion bashing does not become a popular pastime. This much you must understand before you rave and rant over morals and ethics. It is an ethical and moral thing to ensure that we uphold secularism and keep the Nation as one. We cannot poison minds. Be good enough to understand that I say things upfront and am ready to accept the flak without using the mukhawta/ mukhosh (mask) of a Moderator. Being a Moderator is secondary, bringing unity in this Nation is my primary concern! As is enshrined in the Army ethos - "The safety, honour and welfare of your country come first, always and every time".

Yesss that's the task of Moderator that no religion bashing happens.

Only bashing will be done on the basis of caste or regionalism by making remarks like:

I presume your surname explains your ire at my not toeing the religious line and your failing to read my posts thereof!

^^ Good job Ray, this will keep coming to haunt you, you castist hypocrite.

Ha ha sneaking in the names of only bengalis saints and charlatans like Shri Arvind, and getting angry if someone takes his bengali name in Hindi. Not even acknowledging that other saints have happened outside bengal.

Abusing Ramdev 'cause he attended a function with muslims and accusing him hob nobbing with SIMI, and why 'cause he is a non-bengali? While not commenting when challanged with facts about Wimp and charlatan Aurobindo.

Hear all nobody is going to divide the nation on basis of religions, only moderator RayCthackrey will do it on the basis of caste and Regionalism.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Nov 2009 19:52

RayC wrote
True that the government responds to electoral pressures and the Army does not. If there is a concerted effort, then surely the country can change.

Concerted efforts topwards what? A rashtra that does not allow or recognize religious exclusivities in all aspects where the rashtra-nagarik interactions happens? But a fundamental aspect of that interaction has been firmly placed in the religious context by the Constitution - through recognition (and now almost given permanent status)! In fact it has now been made increasingly hard to change the Constitution at all, and almost unlikely since "ghost is within the mustard". To change the constitution you have to first get electoral support to do so. The "secularism" that you highlight has only promoted each and every minority religion as unassailable, beyond criticism, beyond analysis - and most often as being ineherently superior and preferable to what has always been promoted as superstitious/casteist/exploitative/narrow/primitive/backward majority faith. Given such "establishment" of such a "secularism", even to think of measures that will affect the "power and glory" of minority faiths, especially of the Christian or Islamic lines - needs a huge rallying of majority electorate thought that it is "okay" to think of such "changes".

To feel confident of making such changes, the confidence and power and identity to challenge the exclusivity claims by other religions, needs to be restored to the majority. This means a different approach to "secularism" that has so far been practised - virtually to protect Islamic or Christian exclusivity claims but at the same time weaken and delegitimize the ability of the majority to even question such exclusivity. Which will mean bringing back the consciousness of identity and identity based pride for the majority. Only when that majority feels that they are after all not so "bad", comapred to the Islamics or Christians as surreptitiously portrayed by the priesthood of "secularism" - that they can use their electoral power to ensure proper "secularism".

If at all we see what you dub as "religion bashing", are the mostly subconscious attempts at exactly such a re-emergence. An attempt to take back the power to define one's own identity and not simply meekly accept what "priests of secularism" have tried to force down the throats of the majority. People are trying no longer simply to accept how others define them and compartmentalize them or restrict them. If we consitently apply "surreptitiousness/political motivation/hidden agenda" etc to such attempts, a time soon comes when the accused begin to think whether the loud accusers themselves have "surreptitiousness/political motivation/hidden agenda" to maintain the status quo. That status quo which is very much subject to the old criminal investigation approach -"who benefits from the crime"?

In spite of tall claims of being absolutely unbiased as far as religion is concerned, if time after time we see consistent lack of criticism or similar orders of critique towards Islamism or EJism as applied to other faiths in India - that secularism is really a cover to protect and promote those two religions. It could also be easily interpreted by some as ensuring that potential competitors of these two faiths are restricted and the space cleared for expansion by these two faiths.

Imagine even though there was bloodbath during the Partition and the communities should have been polarised, the concept of secularism has been drummed in and most accept it even if grudgingly. (Even the BJP has embraced secularism). It should have been an alien concept, especially for those who have had their relations and loved ones butchered during the Partition and those who lost their home and hearth and became destitute. Therefore, with persuasion and constant hammering in, a mindset can be changed. Schools can do the groundwork to bring in unity. So long as we have this idea of majority and minority or divide society with various types of reservations, we can never have unity as a Nation.

What prevented such hammering in into the mindsets of EJism or Islamism? What made the rashtra allow revival of the MQM in Hyderabad? Or of the Deobandis and Ulema Council? All the while the hammering was deafening in NCERT textbooks, in the media and all rashtryia propaganda machinery when it did not concern those two faiths! The majority have always offered integration. Yes there is historical proof of that - even in "Kashmir" where Hindus and Muslims intermarried one time freely, with Hindu men marrying Muslim girls. It was the great tolerant Mughals - projected and deified so by the secular hammering into educational propaganda into the minds of millions - who issued firmans that only Muslim men could marry Hindu women, and any Hindu man who remains unconverted after marrying a Muslim should be executed.

The Assam Regt and the Naga Regt are Christian majority. JAK LI is Muslim. So, we do have such units. Even the Grenadiers have Muslim units! So, it is not merely a Hindu majority organisation. No unit can make their own rules, but then can the Nation have Sharia overriding the civil law? Personal belief all can have in the Army or in the Nation, but it cannot override the law of the land.

Those regiments could have Christian majority - but they are not officially recognizd by the Army as Christian units. Same goes for "Islamic units". The nation already recognizes the Sharia as personal law for Muslims. Only some of the criminal law aspects of the Sharia have not been recognized - in the sense of penalties. Because of the protection and promotion of the "inherent" goodness of Islam, many Muslims still try to conform to the Sharia interpretations even if such is not officially recognized. So a certain Muslim woman allegedly suffering rape/assault at the hands of her FIL, still feels obliged to accept whatever the Sharia-based injunctions of Islamic theologians turn out to be - rather than take recourse to rashtryia mechanisms?

Continuous harping over our divides and of Abrahamic religions practically taking over the country is dividing the Nation instead of building it as one. Threads after threads are being setup to discuss this and this alone in a surreptitious manner. Shiv mentioned it also in one of the threads. These threads start with high ideals and then degenerate into religion bashing. Therefore, the issue of resigning as a Moderator does not arise. It is a task of the Moderator to ensure that religion bashing does not become a popular pastime. This much you must understand before you rave and rant over morals and ethics. It is an ethical and moral thing to ensure that we uphold secularism and keep the Nation as one. We cannot poison minds. Be good enough to understand that I say things upfront and am ready to accept the flak without using the mukhawta/ mukhosh (mask) of a Moderator. Being a Moderator is secondary, bringing unity in this Nation is my primary concern! As is enshrined in the Army ethos - "The safety, honour and welfare of your country come first, always and every time".

Not pointing out and discussing real divides upfront when they exist, is also a crime against the nation. In the long run, not recognizing divides and denouncing them when they exist - and merely sweep the dust under the carpet - is the real act of dividing the nation. Secularism has become a buzzword, a jargon - which is used as a political tool to ensure that only certain religious ideologies get space to propagate freely. These are religions which have never been separate from imeprialism and politics - and openly acknowledge themselves as so. Trying to put up the smokescreen of the brand of secularism practised so far in India, is equivalent to serving external imperialist and political agenda surreptitiously and strikes at the heart of the nation.

I have not raved or ranted over morals and ethics. It came up only once in one sentence. You have still have not proved how I want to live in the past and how I have divided the nation.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 29 Nov 2009 20:07

Manish_Sharma wrote:
RayC wrote:Therefore, the issue of resigning as a Moderator does not arise. It is a task of the Moderator to ensure that religion bashing does not become a popular pastime. This much you must understand before you rave and rant over morals and ethics. It is an ethical and moral thing to ensure that we uphold secularism and keep the Nation as one. We cannot poison minds. Be good enough to understand that I say things upfront and am ready to accept the flak without using the mukhawta/ mukhosh (mask) of a Moderator. Being a Moderator is secondary, bringing unity in this Nation is my primary concern! As is enshrined in the Army ethos - "The safety, honour and welfare of your country come first, always and every time".
Yesss that's the task of Moderator that no religion bashing happens.

Only bashing will be done on the basis of caste or regionalism by making remarks like:
I presume your surname explains your ire at my not toeing the religious line and your failing to read my posts thereof!
^^ Good job Ray, this will keep coming to haunt you, you castist hypocrite.

Ha ha sneaking in the names of only bengalis saints and charlatans like Shri Arvind, and getting angry if someone takes his bengali name in Hindi. Not even acknowledging that other saints have happened outside bengal.

Abusing Ramdev 'cause he attended a function with muslims and accusing him hob nobbing with SIMI, and why 'cause he is a non-bengali? While not commenting when challanged with facts about Wimp and charlatan Aurobindo.

Hear all nobody is going to divide the nation on basis of religions, only moderator RayCthackrey will do it on the basis of caste and Regionalism.

Doesn’t mind, but I know of Bengali saints and not other equally great saints since religion has not been my prime concern?

Don’t concern of yourself with names. Call me Timothy, if you wish. Timothy, Salim or Jadu is all the same thing. We are humans!

I am not a castiest. My children have married beyond caste and my family is beyond religion and Nationality!

Give yourself a break!

Ramdev is only a yoga master. He is no saint or is he?

Technically, I am highest of your Hindu divides, but I don't acknowledge it. We are all equal. We are all God's creation! Our birth is immaterial.

You make the mistake equating me with that family Tackeray. They divide. I attempt to unite!

I am proud to be a Bengali. Yet, I am prouder to be an Indian!

Any objections?

Is it shameful to be a Bengali second and Indian first?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 29 Nov 2009 21:14

Expansion of grassroots and government led afforestation and reforestation

Environmental cleanup especially wrt our rivers, canals, and beaches

Strengthening of private property laws and selling off government land rather than leasing.

Free market approach towards recycling and garbage disposal

Non governmental approach toward preservation of endangered species

Massive expansion of rain water harvesting and sea water distillation programs

Better preservation of our ancient heritage through private/public partnerships (Museums, university programs and grants)

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Nov 2009 21:38

Land policy is an important issue. Affordable housing and access to food production close by, can perhaps be thought of within new models of settlement.

Instead of selling off of gov land, why not consider giving this land to community land trusts, who are given joint ownership or "shares" in the land with the gov. Use the community land trust to also list itself as a public limited body with tradeable shares on the market. Of course there has to be safeguards to ownership and residency rights, and the righst of residents have to be protected. So that only the financial value of part of the asets are tradeable. On the other hand protected residental shares in the tust are guaranteed residency rights.

Developing the settlement then becomes also a primary motivation for the residents because it increases the value of their stock. Similarly it can draw investments while protecting residents from eviction.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 29 Nov 2009 22:30

Not a bad idea brihaspati. Def better than what we got now. The main reasons why I consider selling off gov land a good thing is b/c:

Companies usually lease gov land and totally strip it of its natural resources like precious metals, ore, and wood. They don't have an incentive to take care of the land b/c they don't have to sell it back to anyone. From what I've seen, people who usually own things take better care of it (ex house, car, plot of land) b/c if they don't, it wouldn't be worth as much. Now if they owned the land, they have an interest to at least ensure its prolonged productivity and worth b/c nobody is going to offer to buy it from them otherwise. Here in the US, timber companies take up the gov lease and totally denude the land and they never bother replanting and the gov could care less b/c it made a quick buck.

Areas in which tribals have been residing for a long period of time benefit immensely from land ownership and it would be much better to hand over the land to them rather than selling it to some multinational. They cant be kicked off and it forces companies who want to exploit the land to deal with them directly. It would also suck up a lot of steam from left wing terror groups!

Lastly, the government can earn a little revenue and doesn't have to be burdened with the added responsibility of looking over the land.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Nov 2009 00:18

RayC wrote:

What you fail to realise and understand, he was an RSS man BEFORE he joined the Army.

And RSS is dedicated to Hinduism, even if the BJP has a secular agenda mixed with Hinduism.

My question to you was did his association with Army change his world-view and organizational affiliations? He was doing his job as part of armed forces. How is he different from an RSS man working in say Dept. of Animal Husbandry? How is Army different from other Govt organizations in being a secular and professional organization?

My point is Indian Armed Forces are no extra secular or professional compared to any other govt or corporate organization.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 30 Nov 2009 00:58

RayC wrote:Doesn’t mind, but I know of Bengali saints and not other equally great saints since religion has not been my prime concern?
Hmmm Ray! well even among bengali saints you know wrong, since Aurobindo you call saint and he was conning people by claiming to have found the secret of eternal life and youth, not only that he also claimed that he will never die while the beauty of Ramdev is that he is a yoga health teacher and doesn't fool people like Arbindo by claiming to be more than that. Of course nobody is claiming for him to be more than that.
Don’t concern of yourself with names. Call me Timothy, if you wish. Timothy, Salim or Jadu is all the same thing. We are humans!
Ahhh! is that an apology to Sam_kamath whose adoption of Sam name you had objected to.........??
I am not a castiest. My children have married beyond caste and my family is beyond religion and Nationality!

So why not go beyond Indian Nationality too, just like you and your family has gone beoynd religion.

You make the mistake equating me with that family Tackeray. They divide. I attempt to unite!

I am proud to be a Bengali. Yet, I am prouder to be an Indian!

Any objections?

Is it shameful to be a Bengali second and Indian first?
The objection is towards "pretending to be a Bengali second and Indian first", while being only a Bengali who gets angry at just Arbindo called Arvind in Hindi. The objection is towards an angry Bengali pretending to be an Indian.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 30 Nov 2009 01:27

RamaY wrote: My question to you was did his association with Army change his world-view and organizational affiliations? He was doing his job as part of armed forces. How is he different from an RSS man working in say Dept. of Animal Husbandry? How is Army different from other Govt organizations in being a secular and professional organization?

My point is Indian Armed Forces are no extra secular or professional compared to any other govt or corporate organization.

RamaY, sorry to jump in like this, but you will see a pattern to RayC posts, First is an ugly tantrum on religion point, Second is bringing is army example and deviate the whole discussion towards how if army can do it then why country can't, Third is throwing in examples of his glorious biography.

Now he brings army issue in as a shield that if you argue against him, then he hides behind army and say well "how can you deface army like that

It is a well repeated pattern over and over again.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Nov 2009 02:06

Manish-Sharma ji

RayC-ji has his own POV and writing style. I honestly believe that such diverse POVs are the beauty/purpose of any discussion. I believe that life will be bland without opposing POVs and styles.

I respect him for the fact that he actively participates in discussions. By winning his (and others) acceptance in a discussion, we are equipping ourselves for future battles.

In the meantime it is ok if we become pain in each others' musharrafs

withing the limits set forth by the forum rules.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 30 Nov 2009 02:50

RamaY wrote: In the meantime it is ok if we become pain in each others' musharrafs withing the limits set forth by the forum rules.

yes let's do that, within the limits of forum rules !!!

But if you see Mullah Enqyoob around please let me know, I'll duck out of the theatre!

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 30 Nov 2009 03:02

Manish, maybe Ray C ji's POV may not be your POV or mine..but i guess you are not aware that the good brigadier has certainly put in much more service to this nation than you have. This is a discussion forum and you may have differences. It's how you tackle differences that show your maturity. While i may not agree that India can be run like an Army institution, i certainly think Ray ji makes his point. I just don't like to see an ex Army vet like Brig Ray being 'run' down by immature folks like you. He can handle your flak for sure..but i just thought i'd put this in.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 30 Nov 2009 03:08

I respect him for the fact that he actively participates in discussions. By winning his (and others) acceptance in a discussion, we are equipping ourselves for future battles.

Well said Ramay Ji. thats how we grow in our debating skills. And Ray ji brings in an important issue very much prevalent in India and much of the West. The issue of PC, political correctness. The Army is a very PC organization within it's defined constitutional ambit. And i think most corporate organizations are too and i agree with the POV that individuals in corporates too perform with the same professionalism expected in the Army. However both the corporates and the Army work within a subset defination of the constitution of India. The nation is much larger and many more issues are involved.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 30 Nov 2009 06:43

Manish_Sharma wrote: Hmmm Ray! well even among bengali saints you know wrong, since Aurobindo you call saint and he was conning people by claiming to have found the secret of eternal life and youth, not only that he also claimed that he will never die while the beauty of Ramdev is that he is a yoga health teacher and doesn't fool people like Arbindo by claiming to be more than that. Of course nobody is claiming for him to be more than that.

Arobindo maybe a Saint to many. When I wrote that I know of Bengali saints, I meant I have heard of them. It does not mean I follow their teaching. Ramdev continues to be a yoga teacher as far as I am concerned. He is no sage and anyway he is nowhere of the stature of a Saint. Further, he is commercial.

Ahhh! is that an apology to Sam_kamath whose adoption of Sam name you had objected to.........??
I am not a castiest. My children have married beyond caste and my family is beyond religion and Nationality!

Yes, I did wonder of the name Sam. It was because of a disconnect between the content of the post with the name.

So why not go beyond Indian Nationality too, just like you and your family has gone beoynd religion

Been there done that!

The objection is towards "pretending to be a Bengali second and Indian first", while being only a Bengali who gets angry at just Arbindo called Arvind in Hindi. The objection is towards an angry Bengali pretending to be an Indian.

Quoting out of context will not make your argument through. It was in context of pronunciation and the subject was totally different. Being an Indian also means that one must come as close to the pronunciation as possible. For instance, Ghumman is not Ghumman in Punjabi. It is Kumman the 'k' being said with a quiver in the voice and that is the same for Kio which is Ghee! Dhillon is not Dhillon, but Tillion again the quiver!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Nov 2009 07:32

RoyG,
I agree broadly with you. The "tribal" land ownership issue is a bit complicated, as some of such societies have variations in their ownership concepts from that of non-tribals. I have spent a lot of time with them, and I had the idea of "community land trusts" initially from observing them as a teenager. Much later, and now, I have explored and studied the modern economic framework that can adapt such a concept.

We have to agree, no matter where we stand in the political spectrum, that for the large majority of our people, a decent, modern housing with close access to sustainable food and energy production resources is very much a dream. This happens primarily because of abnormally large fluctuations and inflation in land prices and problems of ownership. We need to guarantee some degree of land security for everyone.

I would like to have exploration of three aspects in the arena of land as part of national agenda
(a) community land trusts with corporatization, market capitalization, and with safegurads for residents
(b) reclaiming of land from sea where feasible
(c) buying and leasing land from other nations.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 30 Nov 2009 07:47

In the Indian Army, there is no Christian, Muslim or Hindu units. We embrace the concept of India and so these units are all of the Indian Army. Religion plays a part in the spiritual health of the individual but it is kept personal.

One has to have the feeling of being One, if the organisation or Nation has to ensure its progress and strength.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 30 Nov 2009 08:04

RamaY wrote:
My question to you was did his association with Army change his world-view and organizational affiliations? He was doing his job as part of armed forces. How is he different from an RSS man working in say Dept. of Animal Husbandry? How is Army different from other Govt organizations in being a secular and professional organization?

My point is Indian Armed Forces are no extra secular or professional compared to any other govt or corporate organization.

Yes it changed. He is more accommodating to others or at least that is what he told me. I recently met him during Infantry Day celebrations.

If one is in the Animal Husbandry Dept he can continue to be an RSS man and propagate his ideology. In the Armed Forces, we cannot be members of any organisations or political party.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Nov 2009 09:03

RayC wrote: If one is in the Animal Husbandry Dept he can continue to be an RSS man and propagate his ideology. In the Armed Forces, we cannot be members of any organisations or political party.

Good for him. Does it mean he now believes that RSS's ideology is narrow-minded? What did he do to influence that ideology? What was he thinking when joined BJP after his service? Since he chose to join politics what did he do to bring the narrow-minded ideology of RSS's narrow-mindedness?

I do not agree with your point that the RSS man in second example to have the freedom to spread his ideology. FYI, many many moons ago I did my college project for Dept. Of Animal Husbandry, and I found the emploees there to be professional in their surroundings. But I will give you the benefit of doubt, for now.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 30 Nov 2009 09:36

This may help understand the values of those who have had the experience of the Army.

http://www.salute.co.in/011109/lifestyle_Soda&Sos.html

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 30 Nov 2009 12:02

RamaY wrote:
RayC wrote: If one is in the Animal Husbandry Dept he can continue to be an RSS man and propagate his ideology. In the Armed Forces, we cannot be members of any organisations or political party.

Good for him. Does it mean he now believes that RSS's ideology is narrow-minded? What did he do to influence that ideology? What was he thinking when joined BJP after his service? Since he chose to join politics what did he do to bring the narrow-minded ideology of RSS's narrow-mindedness?

I do not agree with your point that the RSS man in second example to have the freedom to spread his ideology. FYI, many many moons ago I did my college project for Dept. Of Animal Husbandry, and I found the emploees there to be professional in their surroundings. But I will give you the benefit of doubt, for now.

I don't think he ever felt that the RSS or BJP was 'narrow-minded'. He only did not let it interfere with his work as an Army person.

Even now, when he attends military get-together, he does not carry the political and ideological baggage into such dos.

Since I worked with him at AHQ in Delhi and he became a friend, I am aware of his RSS background. He is a very fine person and very matured in his outlook.

I don't think political parties could be called narrow minded. In their own way each pursue their own agenda. They are entitled to it. It is the people who will decide who will rule.

As far as the religious organisations are concerned, they are entitled to their own, but if they violate the Constitution or the law, they must be brought to book. Personal laws are fine, but if they violate the Law and the Constitution such personal laws should not be allowed to flourish.

I find the violations as the weakness of the Govt and the eye on the Vote bank politics which is leading to the mess!

Just observe how the Maoists are on the backfoot because PC has openly blown the bugle! So can all non constitutional attitude of religious organisation be brought to toe the national line.

I am not in anyway indicating others are not professional. I am only indicating that if one shed narrow divides, the results are better!

I have seen Bharat Seva Ashram working in disaster relief and I daresay they did a better job than the Army. They did not discriminate as to who they were assisting!

All I say, is let us sink our difference as Bharat Seva Ashram (I don't know if they are RSS) did and we will outmanoeuvre the external influences at work! Results speak more than ideology and dogmas!

It is time to work and not read Upanishads and religious works. They are good for one's soul, but the need of the hour, to use a Christian term, salvage the soul of others with cognitive work for their betterment!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 30 Nov 2009 12:22

Let me indicate the result of good work for the common man and its effect that is beyond ideology and dogmas.

I speak of the enfant terrible of Indian politics. Modi.

Everyone has worked to his downfall including his own party.

And yet Modi rules supreme.

Why?

Good work for the people!!

I went to Gujarat and I cannot help but state it is a State that is well ahead of all!!

I speak for the common man. All this Indic stuff or wallowing with grief over our glorious past or rape of India by foreign element is fine for the chatterati and those aspiring to be called intellectuals. It is the grassroot existence that worries. Indic glory does not feed the stomach. Reality does. Rs 40 for onions and Rs 22 for potatoes is what is the concern. In such terribly difficult times, who cares about religious divides?

Mamta Bannerji wrecked the Singur project and today she is talking about joint venture with the State.

Once one faces the fact that one has to deliver, one starts smelling the coffee!

Sharmaji says I hide behind the Army. First thing that he must understand that an army man does not hide. He is upfront and damn the consequence. Let me not state what dangers (to him and part of my job for which I am paid and so no big deal for me!) I have encountered in life and which I will face anytime and any where. My Nation is paramount!

Therefore, the National Agenda should be weave a ONENESS in the Nation.

If it can be done in the Armed Forces, my question is what prevent the civil society to embrace the same? Where is the Govt going wrong?

I have total faith that the civil society is as good as any other and care for India too!

Yesterday I went to Mahanirban Math in Calcutta with such a wonderful surrounding and I did not have to be a Hindu to embrace and imbibe the peace, tranquillity and religiosity of such a beautiful place.

Religion is not important. Peace of mind is!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Nov 2009 12:39

RayC wrote:
I went to Gujarat and I cannot help but state it is a State that is well ahead of all!!

I speak for the common man. All this Indic stuff or wallowing with grief over our glorious past or rape of India by foreign element is fine for the chatterati and those aspiring to be called intellectuals.

Yet Modi is one of those who have made Indic ness the forefront of his campaigns and movements.

Strangely Gujarat does not see a dichotomy.

Perhaps the dichotomy is not in how things are but in mental conditioning

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 30 Nov 2009 12:42

Perhaps the dichotomy is not in how things are but in mental conditioning

Well said!

That is what the Army does!

India is a great country and we can do it!!

Could anyone topple Modi inspite of virulent attacks?

Even that Muslim MP from Kerela praised him and he was chucked out CPM!

Good work for the common man pays!

Everyone cares for his well bring. Glorious Indic past is of no concern to him or what happened in history. We cannot change history, though we can continue interpreting it to indicate our intellectualism to impress!

We have to move on!

Our and out successors lives are more important than our glories of the past.

Indeed, I would not forget our past, but we must use it to build our present and our future and destroy it recounting with glee to show how evil some have been. They have been evil. But bring them into the fold. Build India as ONE.

Who encouraged the Muslim invaders into India? Who divided the Hindu society further into OBC etc? Abrahamic folks?

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 30 Nov 2009 12:55

RayC Saab,
Some thoughts here..
Can you tell us why the soldiers of any rank in the Army or other services and those who belong to the majority community or let us say who do not belong to Abrahamic community, do not feel that there is minority pampering?
To get to something like Army, first the Govt should not only stop this blatant attempt at pampering which helps no one including the minorities .
The Army has similar rules for all , I presume. The Army is not only impartial but is also seen to be impartial
The authorities of civil society is not. The elite and powerful have mucked it up to get the advantage but left the Army alone otherwise their musharaffs would have been set on fire.
The Army and other services are a small part of the entire society. There would be a limited set of goals and routes well defined to achieve that goal. Nation on the other hand is much larger with more goals and issues. The goals include economic, social, cultural ,intellectual , religious and spiritual domain. Many times achievement is a domain for one set of group would be in conflict with other. They have to be given a voice to be heard and to have some say.
So an authoriatarian structure like Army may not work out.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 30 Nov 2009 13:14

rkirankr wrote:RayC Saab,
Some thoughts here..
Can you tell us why the soldiers of any rank in the Army or other services and those who belong to the majority community or let us say who do not belong to Abrahamic community, do not feel that there is minority pampering?

The answer is simple.

There is no pampering. Your religions is yours and we shall allow it on Sundays at the Mandir or Church or Mosque within the unit (these religious icons are as per the majority religion, like I was in a Buddhist unit and so Buddhist religion was practised). There was thus no pampering. Get your religious solace and get back to work!

To get to something like Army, first the Govt should not only stop this blatant attempt at pampering which helps no one including the minorities .

I am totally in agreement with you.

Vote-bank politics is what is ruining this country!

As I see it, what has religion to do with my citizenship? I am an Indian. Period.

The Army has similar rules for all , I presume. The Army is not only impartial but is also seen to be impartial
The authorities of civil society is not. The elite and powerful have mucked it up to get the advantage but left the Army alone otherwise their musharaffs would have been set on fire.
The Army and other services are a small part of the entire society. There would be a limited set of goals and routes well defined to achieve that goal

.

It is not the Army that is what is called 'secular'. I think all forces in uniform ie BSF, CRPF et all which are cloned like the Army are.

The others in government are not possibly because they are under their politician masters (today one honest civil servant committed suicide in UP who was in charge of the Mayawati's monuments) and that is the sad commentary! The Govt is not ready to enforce the Police Reforms! Such is the sad state of affairs!

Nation on the other hand is much larger with more goals and issues. The goals include economic, social, cultural ,intellectual , religious and spiritual domain. Many times achievement is a domain for one set of group would be in conflict with other. They have to be given a voice to be heard and to have some say.
So an authoriatarian structure like Army may not work out.

Goals are there and they have to be achieved.

Unless there is a structured society, how will it be achieved?

If we are to waste our time of Indic, Moghul atrocities, Abrahamic invasion etc, how can we progress?

If you get your money's worth, would you worry?

You don't.

You have to bribe your way and use your clout to get anything done in this country!

It is a misconception that the Army is totally authoritarian. It is to some extent, but there are avenues for redress. I believe they have an authority which is headed by a retired Civil Supreme Court Judge apart from others to hear the grievances!

Nowhere would I suggest that India adopt the Army structure or of China. All I am saying is shove religious laws into oblivion and let the law and Constitution rule supreme.

But then Vote bank politics will suffer!

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 30 Nov 2009 18:46

harbans wrote:Manish, maybe Ray C ji's POV may not be your POV or mine..but i guess you are not aware that the good brigadier has certainly put in much more service to this nation than you have. This is a discussion forum and you may have differences. It's how you tackle differences that show your maturity. While i may not agree that India can be run like an Army institution, i certainly think Ray ji makes his point. I just don't like to see an ex Army vet like Brig Ray being 'run' down by immature folks like you. He can handle your flak for sure..but i just thought i'd put this in.

Hmmm as I had pointed out to RamaY before, it will come down to this "disagreement with RayC = insulting the IA"

It's ok for him to disrupt the discussion exactly on those lines by throwing tantrums, but anyone arguing against him will be lablled as arguing against an "ex army vet". Sad the way our great army is being used as a shield in argument.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 30 Nov 2009 19:45

Manish_Sharma wrote: Hmmm as I had pointed out to RamaY before, it will come down to this "disagreement with RayC = insulting the IA"
It's ok for him to disrupt the discussion exactly on those lines by throwing tantrums, but anyone arguing against him will be lablled as arguing against an "ex army vet". Sad the way our great army is being used as a shield in argument.

I am sure Harbans was not asking for some favour for me. He was being a gentleman since you were ranting without facts!

Go sit at the feet of Arun Jaitley, who I think is a great debater and learn how to debate!

I am not using Army as a shield.

I am using Army as an example.

I have served the country through the medium of the Army so that you and your family could sleep well! So, remember I don't hide and I am infantry man!! What are you?

The Army is a part of the Indian society. Or do you think it is an alien concept forced on us by the Abrahamic religions?

It is for you to understand and not draw inferences which are contrived with feeble and insecure and scared imagination.

Please discuss with facts and not with fiction!

If indeed you feel that I am using the army as a shield so be it! I served it well and loyally and also to my Nation!

I could be quite scathing, but then again the ilk of you will cry I am using my shield of being a Moderator!

State something and you are damned, don't state something and you are still damned.

But then I accept this unfortunate state since it is Id ul Zoha - time for sacrifice!

It is time you must realise that your point of view is not that has been stated on the Mount! Are you Moses? And is he the last word as you pretend to be?

Learn to agree to disagree!

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 30 Nov 2009 20:47

But then I accept this unfortunate state since it is Id ul Zoha - time for sacrifice!

It is time you must realise that your point of view is not that has been stated on the Mount! Are you Moses? And is he the last word as you pretend to be?

Learn to agree to disagree!

RayC,

Truer words were not spoken. I have to congratulate you in your patient exposition of your viewpoint. This obsession with the "Indic past" (whatever Indic means I have no idea) at the cost of the present and the future of India is baffling. FWIW I think that there should be one law for every person in the country - the law of the land. But enforcing that law should be left to the administration of the country/state/city etc. And if that administration is inefficient, corrupt etc, then all efforts should be made to improve that rather than causing divisions within the country with all this "Indic vision of the glorious past" at the exclusion of people who were not part of that "glorious Indic past".

The title of this thread is 'National Agenda for India, 2010-2050. Rather than concentrating on the great challenges the country faces in the next 40 years in the areas of energy sufficiency, water shortages, pollution, geopolitical threats, education, health etc., it is sad to see every such thread turn into some kind of "Indic discussion". If I remember correctly all such discussion and posters were encouraged to go to a site called India forum which was set up by some moderators and members of BRF who wanted to discuss these issues. Why is BRF being hijacked if that separate site exists?.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Nov 2009 21:24

ldev wrote: This obsession with the "Indic past" (whatever Indic means I have no idea) at the cost of the present and the future of India is baffling. FWIW I think that there should be one law for every person in the country - the law of the land. But enforcing that law should be left to the administration of the country/state/city etc. And if that administration is inefficient, corrupt etc, then all efforts should be made to improve that rather than causing divisions within the country with all this "Indic vision of the glorious past" at the exclusion of people who were not part of that "glorious Indic past".

The title of this thread is 'National Agenda for India, 2010-2050. Rather than concentrating on the great challenges the country faces in the next 40 years in the areas of energy sufficiency, water shortages, pollution, geopolitical threats, education, health etc., it is sad to see every such thread turn into some kind of "Indic discussion". If I remember correctly all such discussion and posters were encouraged to go to a site called India forum which was set up by some moderators and members of BRF who wanted to discuss these issues. Why is BRF being hijacked if that separate site exists?.

Idev-ji

You (and some others) got it wrong. We want to use the Indic culture, ethos and ideology as the unifying force and as a solution to the problems of today such as leadership, foreign-policy, administrative-inefficiencies, and corruption etc. It is unfortunate that people like you do not even want to study if Indic way-of-life would be a possible solution to the problems of today and tomorrow, just because you think Indic world-view is same as other religion/ideology centric world views. By now, it is a proven fact that the current version of socialism+secularism+managed-democracy is not working for India, as it is adding all the issues that you have identified above.

Yes, the title of this thread is “National Agenda for India, 2010-2050”. But my question is to achieve/be what? India as a low-level power? India as a rentier state for a super power?

If your objective is to achieve a corruption-free, environmentally-safe, developed nation then how do you expect to achieve that goal with current system of inefficient, corrupt, politically motivated laws and governance system? Don’t you think you need to fix these issues before you can achieve your national objectives?

Looks like you view thread from a tactical perspective.

No doubt, we need to win these tactical battles to achieve our strategic objectives. Some of us have proposed our recommendations on each one of these tactical issues. Kindly elaborate how you envision to address these issues and how they come together to achieve the India that you want to build by 2050. I have couple of specific questions for you.

Education – what kind of education you propose to provide to your future generations? Don’t you want to give them the factual history of their nation and culture so they can build the future they want?

Geopolitical threats – What geopolitical position you envision India to have in next 20-30 years? What values and world-view you want India to propagate? For example, USA wanted to propagate market-economy based democratic systems (*of course with exceptions whenever their national interests demanded deviations) and USSR wanted to propagate Leninist-socialist systems.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 30 Nov 2009 21:33

ldev wrote:Why is BRF being hijacked if that separate site exists?.

I am very confused by what Indic means

- that said:

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt.

What is the purpose of BRF? In specific the SIIRF?

If the underlined above does not support discussing the economic, military, religious, political
forces that constitute the security environment of India, then please explain the purpose of this forum.

I am glad India (the country) is secular and hope it remains so.
However, I am thoroughly confused by the expectation that people need to be secular!

Further, that posters need to leave behind their religion and political leans before they
enter the sanctified premises of this forum.
Even the Indian Military does not ask this of her citizens!

Heck even the Mahatma could not post here with his views on religion!

Let us say there is an agenda for the owners here to not discuss capitalism and communism -
for some reason - would folks who are interested in discussing maoists and their threat
to the security of India be asked to go to another site.
Why should economics be discussed on BRF? Heck, it offends my die hard capitalistic sentiments!

You better run like hell
You better make your face up in
Your favourite disguise
With your button down lips and your
Roller blind eyes
.... you know the rest....

I like the objectivity at BRF, but it boggles my mind when one is asked to pretend,
distort and contort and invent "Indic," to confirm or be cast out!

Whereas objectivity demands that one ought to consider viewpoints however normative!
even one does not agree with them.

Finally, the less I say about this season of moderation (not all) the better.
Disappointing, and yes, I do know I have a choice to go away to another site!
Perhaps a DOO can write a AI program to redirect to a preapproved alternate site
if you mention certain keywords!

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 30 Nov 2009 21:38

RayC wrote: I have served the country through the medium of the Army so that you and your family could sleep well! So, remember I don't hide and I am infantry man!! What are you?

Boss,

Get over it! You serve at the discretion of the citizens of India and her representatives!

PS: Remember the story of the body parts fighting about who is the best - guess who won!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Nov 2009 21:45

I second Pulikeshi's point above.

This nation spends 20% of its annual budget for 1 million strong army (0.01% of the population), so it can protect the nation in the time of need. Even then, we see the same issues as organizational inefficiencies (look how long MRCA selection is taking), and corruption at both lower and higher levels (corruption at some border check points, and corruption/favoritism/self-interests in selecting certain military H/W).

Yet, the nation respects, honors, loves, and even reveres its Armed forces. I am sad to see some of its members not appreciating the hand that feeds them.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 30 Nov 2009 22:03

I am not following this thread,but I am worried by the pernicious influence of christist schools/colleges in some states like Tamilnadu,Bangalore(may be in all states) in inciting anti-hindu feelings,creating an atmosphere favourable to produce DIE etc.These institutions many of which were built during the colonial era(the most prestigious ones) by colonial rulers on indian land(in prime urban locations) using indian labour and wealth.Surely we must control these cancerous institutions.

After independence,foreign funding is creating millionaire missionaries/overpaid padres/foot soldiers/corrupt education merchants who are beyond scrutiny of state and society.These 'sucess stories' are an inducement to gullible and poor hindus to convert.They are/will be useful Trojan horses/fifth columnists/agent provocateurs for foreign powers.In addition they receive state funding,have patronage in distributing teaching jobs in schools/college,give favoured treatment to minorities, are able to have an enormous impact on backward hindus eager for education by offering seats to Hindu children.

They are not interested in nation building or education in a broad humanistic sense nor do they want to build top class scientific institution.Their chief interest is in subverting India.They also provide opportunities for anti-india groups to gang up and use the urban infrastructure.

My specific question to the gurus who are concerned about this cancer:What can we do to arrest,control and eliminate this cancer?

The Urdu language particularly the script is a great danger to India.How do we cap this as well?