Indian Military Aviation

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 15 Oct 2010 09:17

Enter the Airbus Military A400M

Airbus Military Targets India For A400M
Aviation Week

Airbus Military Targets India For A400M
Oct 14, 2010
By Neelam Mathews
NEW DELHI, India

Airbus Military says it plans to start discussions with India next year over potential acquisition of the A400M military airlifter.

India so far has not Expressed an Interest in the European Airlifter, which is still in development, but Didier Vernet, Head of A400M Market Development, said “If India is Interested, We Will be Happy to Discuss.”

Airbus is desperate to increase foreign sales of the A400M because the core European program — which remains in flux contractually — will not be sufficient to return a profit.

In India, Airbus Military will argue the A400M can Fill a Niche between the Boeing C-17 and Lockheed Martin C-130J that the Country Already is Looking to Buy.

India is Considering Issuing a Request for Information for an Airlifter than could Transport Large Goods and Land on Airstrips without Concrete Runways.

Vernet also believes that the Fact that Several European Militaries are taking the A400M as a Refueler is an Advantage.

He asserts the airlifter has a range of 2,450 naut. mi. with 30 metric tons of payload, or 20 metric tons to 3,450 naut. mi. The Exact Figures are Still Being Defined in Flight Testing.

Vernet concedes there is still uncertainty in the European home markets, where governments and industry are wrestling to agree to contractual terms to cover three years of program delay and additional development costs.

This week, Airbus Military will launch its simulator training center for the A400M, CN-235 and C-295 where pilots, technicians and allied staff will be trained.

Airbus A400M - Wikipedia

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Oct 2010 09:21

Given the distaste for IL-76X expressed by IAF, I guess the replacement of IL-76 category will be something like A-400M. And with economic situation being what it is, I order book from European nations might not hold firm. Or they may be just too happy to let the first production numbers go to India - which has more pressing need and more importanty, the money.

vic · Post by **vic** » 15 Oct 2010 09:59

It seems that A400 may cost as much as an C-17, so I wonder whether India will go for it? I think that future will be likë:-

HTT-40

Saras

Civilian RTA /followed by Military RTA from 2025, gap being filled by C-27s

MRTA/C-130s followed by (I hope turboprop MRTA)

Upgraded Il-76/78 and C-17s

I think that India should buy the design of An-70

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Oct 2010 10:06

Juggi G wrote:Enter the Airbus Military A400M

Airbus Military Targets India For A400M
Aviation Week
...
Airbus Military Targets India For A400M
Oct 14, 2010
...

I doubt IAF will buy the A400M. Let's look at the IAF's transport fleet by 2025 (on order/planned):

12 C-130J for Special Forces airlift (6 + 6 options) @20t lift capacity
16 C-17 for Heavy-airlift (10 + 6 options) @80t lift capacity
45 MTA for Medium-airlift (45 initial orders and possibly 45 options) @20t lift capacity

12 C-27J??? for Light/Medium-airlift (12 initial plus likely 12 options) @5t-10t lift capacity

6 IL-78MKI MARS (should be able to lift 40t with the removal of fuel tanks)
12 Airbus 330 MRTT (6 initial + 6 options) @45t (non-fuel) lift capacity

That is already 4 types of transport and another 2 types of tanker/transport aircrafts. It is highly unlikely IAF would want to add yet another transport plane (A400M with a 40t payload capacity) on top of the above list.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Oct 2010 10:25

The tanker numbers look a bit weak.

Moreover, there is a gap between the 80 ton and 20 ton catagory. I see no reason why it cannot be filled up by the A 400 or even the AN 70. If India becomes a partner of the latter programe. Like the MTA project.

Also am unable to understand looking at the potential orders for the A400, the logice for the numbers ordered by Germany. Do they take their International Peace Keeping obligations so seriously. That they want 50 + Airframes.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 Oct 2010 10:46

Why didn't India just go for more C-130Js?? They too are in 20t payload category(approx 19t). And it is already proven and they anyway will have 6-10 C-130s. Would make sense to go for them instead of developing a new MTA.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Oct 2010 10:49

looking at it this way, made sense to have the MTA be a replacement for the IL76 in 40t category and for 20T get the basic cargo version of the C-130 minus the frills of the MC-130 we are buying for SF units.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Oct 2010 10:55

Pratyush wrote: Also am unable to understand looking at the potential orders for the A400, the logice for the numbers ordered by Germany. Do they take their International Peace Keeping obligations so seriously. That they want 50 + Airframes.

Luftwaffe has a very uncluttered breakup of their transport aircraft. They are buying 60 A-400s to replace their 80-odd C-160s.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 15 Oct 2010 11:09

French military chief on India tour ahead of Sarkozy's December visit

Ahead of French President Nicolas Sarkozy's visit to India in December, the country's chief of defence staff Admiral Edouard Guillaud will be coming here on Saturday to discuss ways to further bolster bilateral defence cooperation. Admiral Guillaud, during the four-day visit, is scheduled to hold talks with national security advisor Shivshankar Menon as well as the three Service chiefs -- Air Chief Marshal P V Naik, Admiral Nirmal Verma and General V K Singh.

The French CDS' visit comes at a time when the two countries are also poised to clinch the over $2.1 billion deal to upgrade the 56 multi-role Mirage-2000s, first inducted in the mid-1980s, in IAF combat fleet. The deal is likely to be inked during Sarkozy's visit, as reported earlier. India and France have been negotiating the upgrade of the Mirage-2000s for over three years but it is only now that they have narrowed down their differences over the project cost.

The upgrade price earlier being demanded by French companies Dassault Aviation (aircraft manufacturer), Thales (weapons systems integrator) and MBDA (missile supplier) was around 30% more than what India was ready to pay. In the upgrade, the fighters will get new avionics, radars, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites, jam-proof communication with data links, weapon delivery and precision-targeting systems, including all-weather, fire-and-forget MICA (interception and aerial combat missiles) systems. The first four to six Mirages will be upgraded in France, while the rest will be upgraded in India by Hindustan Aeronautics with transfer of technology.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 Oct 2010 11:29

Singha wrote:looking at it this way, made sense to have the MTA be a replacement for the IL76 in 40t category and for 20T get the basic cargo version of the C-130 minus the frills of the MC-130 we are buying for SF units.

Isn't MTA in the 20t category ? IL-76 is in the 40t category. The AN-32s have payload of around 6-7 tonnes. C-130 in just the transport version has payload of around 21-22 tonnes.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 15 Oct 2010 11:33

indranilroy wrote:
Pratyush wrote: Also am unable to understand looking at the potential orders for the A400, the logice for the numbers ordered by Germany. Do they take their International Peace Keeping obligations so seriously. That they want 50 + Airframes.
Luftwaffe has a very uncluttered breakup of their transport aircraft. They are buying 60 A-400s to replace their 80-odd C-160s.

German defence ministry is considering reducing its orders further. Still in discussion.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 15 Oct 2010 11:42

Neela wrote: Also am unable to understand looking at the potential orders for the A400, the logice for the numbers ordered by Germany. Do they take their International Peace Keeping obligations so seriously. That they want 50 + Airframes.

Luftwaffe has a very uncluttered breakup of their transport aircraft. They are buying 60 A-400s to replace their 80-odd C-160s.

German defence ministry is considering reducing its orders further. Still in discussion.

Correcto mundo recent news have suggested that the Bunderswhere in general is going to have massive cuts which is going to affect the newest eurofighter orders, A400 orders, NH90s, Tigres, the Tornado IDS fleet will be run down very rapidly and the Phantom fleet is to be retired in the next three years. In summary big cuts for the Luftwaffe!

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 15 Oct 2010 11:47

Hike in Defence Budget Not Enough
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Opinions

Hike in Defence Budget Not Enough
Need for Long-Term Modernisation Plan
by Maj-Gen Ashok K. Mehta (Retd)

ON the eve of the 78th anniversary of the Indian Air Force last week, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik made several strategic pronouncements, including that the Air Force is to acquire 250 to 300 fifth generation fighter aircraft in a joint development and production arrangement with Russia at a cost of $30 billion. Taken together with other military acquisitions over the next 10 to 15 years, India will be spending nearly $100 billion, the largest spurt in defence modernisation ever. But this Alone will Not Alter the Strategic Environment to India’s Advantage. It Will also Require New Thinking and Political Will.

The Principal Beneficiaries of the Drive are to be the Air Force and the Navy which Together have Traditionally Received Less than Half of the Army’s Share in Funding. This Belated Correction has Stemmed not from any Rational Analysis but Classic Numerology : Maintaining a 1.2 million-Strong Army, 39 & a Half Squadron Air Force and a 100-Ship Navy.

The new British coalition government is contemplating deep cuts in the defence budget as part of reducing the budget deficit. Being considered is a freeze on aircraft carriers, downsizing tanks and aircraft meant for Cold War contingencies and even reviewing the Trident nuclear deterrent. But no increase or decrease in defence capability can be ordered without a strategic defence and security review (SDSR). This warning came from Defence Secretary Liam Fox to Prime Minister David Cameron.

No one knows how the military capability exercise is done in India where, leave alone an SDSR, not even a defence review or White Paper has ever been issued. Yet ACM Naik, who is also the current Chairman of the rotating Chief of Staff Committee, said that the new capabilities were “in tune with national aspirations”. He explained, “even Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has said that India’s area of responsibility extends from the Hormuz Straits to the Malacca Straits and beyond.”

Each Service does its Future Planning Singly and Not as an Integrated Whole to Achieve a Collective Capability. Service Chiefs Look Out for Clues about Strategic Aspirations from Prime Ministerial Speeches at the Combined Commanders’ Conferences and Other Heady Occasions. The Army is currently engaged in a seminal exercise of transformation which has been “uplinked” with its long-term perspective plans and with those of the other two Services.

It is noteworthy that the 11th Defence Plan (2007-12) is in its Fourth year and Not Yet Approved by the Government. Nor has the 15-year long-term Perspective Plan (2007-2022). Further, the Defence Acquisition Process is so Warped that Rs 50,000 crore has Gone UnSpent Over the Last 10 Years for which No One is Accountable . The DRDO, at Best an UnReliable and Erratic Performer, is One Cause for a Rise in Spending. Still further, there is no integrated defence plan sanctioned by the government and ad-hocism and the Defence Secretary, in the absence of a Chief of Defence Staff, play a key role in shaping the future defence and security landscape.

Otherwise What Would Explain the Impossible Two-and-a-Half-Front Scenario : Fighting Conventional Wars with Pakistan and China and Combating an Insurgency? Such a Contingency has Never emerged from any government directive based on an SDSR coupling defence and diplomacy — that is hard and, soft power — and, therefore, the concept never ratified by the government. Take the Army’s Much-Celebrated Cold Start Doctrine which has Sent Shivers Down Pakistan’s Spine . According to Army Chief Gen VK Singh, Cold Start is Not an Official Doctrine but Part of New Thinking.

All novel strategic thinking on the part of Service Chiefs seldom attracts government sanction. So, most innovative thinking is done in a political vacuum giving the government the dubious advantage of deniability, whether it is a two-front war or Cold Start. Four years ago, soon after the Chinese shot down a space satellite, the Air Force organised a seminar on the domination of aerospace. Then Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee ruled that India’s policy was benign and only defensive assets would be deployed in higher space. The IAF, however, wants to be a network-centric aerospace power.

The Services cannot be faulted for advanced thinking to get out of the strategic static as governments have never and are unlikely in the future to indulge in future thinking and planning, especially on defence and security. Lack of Political Direction and Strategic Guidance have Led to Half-Baked Organisational Structures, Systems and Procedures. So this Year, the Government has decided to upgrade and acquire $ 50 billion worth of aircraft, ships and submarines. The Army, which has Hogged Funds all this while, is to be Starved of Money for the Modernisation of its Artillery and Air Defence.

It is entirely a different matter that these big ticket items of conventional deterrence are unlikely to be employed as the wars and conflicts of the future will be low intensity which require different skills and equipment . India has been fighting insurgency and terrorism for the last three decades with inadequate and inappropriate arms and equipment. That is why when Kargil happened and the government rushed to Israel and South Africa with an SOS, then Army Chief Gen V.P. Malik declared: We will fight with what we have and later embarked on a futile exercise of downsising manpower to create funds for modernisation, symbolising acute ad-hocism.

In the Late 1980s, Air Chief Marshal S.K. Kaul at a Conference of Industry and the Air Force said that the IAF Did Not Need a Deep Strike Aircraft . His Advice was Ignored and the Government Went Ahead with a Deal with Russia for Su-30 which is Now the Mainstay of the IAF. Under Almost Similar Conditions Earlier, the Jaguar Aircraft was Acquired at the Behest of the Government.

The Acquisition of the Haunted Bofors Gun was Pushed by the Government Overriding Recommendations for Guns in the Same Caliber .

What this suggests is that governments take keen interest in the purchase of weapons involving big sums of money.

What is Evident Today is the Scramble for Making Good the Horrible Deficiencies in Aircraft and Squadron Strength which have Declined from 39 and a Half Squadrons to 28. ACM Naik said that 50 per cent of the Air Force equipment was either Obsolete or Obsolescent at a Time when the Neighbourhood was Volcanic.

This Unacceptable Decline in Operational Readiness Would Not Have Occurred had there been an Integrated Long-Term Modernisation Plan Approved and Sanctioned by the Government.
As a Rising Power with a 9 per cent Growth Rate, India is Expected to have Considerable Military Capability with Advanced Technology to Appear to be an Assertive Power.
But Converting Military Power into Political and Diplomatic Gain will Not Come Easily, Certainly Not from the So-Called Integrated Headquarters of the Ministry of Defence which is a Big Lie.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 Oct 2010 13:13

^^^^^ it's never enough. Money is never enough.

In my opinion its a confused article. He says money ain't enough, then money returned back. he does not say that FM has promised all the money wanted.

Secondly, a joint planning he says is also tad old. IIRC, both IAF and IN have said that they have planned on their own and keeping in mind the army requirements. If you listen to the NDTV interview, Naik says "supporting Army."

I think, what he wants to say is that Army is getting less funds. or is it Army is not able to spend it?

Then the usual beat on politicians + DRDO + IAF and IN. I think, all these 4 have done a lot of planning and delivery.

Or can someone bring out what he wants to say?

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 15 Oct 2010 17:20

Firstly there is enough money at present being spent. All the project have financial backing, Govt has never said that we don't have enough money for the military, we shall not fund it, etc with only one exception that of Tanker bid. The major issue is with haphazard planning, no efforts to fight a integrated war on part of the forces, painful and idiotic acquisition rules, slow purchase process because of lazy babus along with few other.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 15 Oct 2010 17:40

Refusing CISMOA, LSA Pacts not to Impact Operational Effectiveness says Indian Air Force Chief P.V. Naik

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 15 Oct 2010 17:45

chackojoseph,
I think you misunderstood the headline. It means that increase in defence budget "alone" is not enough. It has to be supplemented with proper planning and vision.

As for the joint planning, the co-ordination between the services (both regarding planning and operations) has been a much debated issue for a long time.

The problem with funds being returned is because of redtape and other issues which cause huge delays in defence deals resulting in the funds remaining unspent. Again a point emphasizing that hiking defence budget is not enough. It also has to be used.

And yes, his bashing of DRDO was not necessary but where did you get that he was bashing IAF and IN. Did you get it from the statement of Air Chief Marshal S.K. Kaul? If so, it was not a bashing of IAF but a snide remark emphasizing the fact that GOI sometimes take a lot of interest in big ticket defence deals (even when the services are not). However, the GOI is hardly ever taking interest in defence deals which are very necessary but not big enough in $$$.

Anyhow, how did you get that he was bashing Navy?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 15 Oct 2010 17:46

The title is misleading. Anyone reading the title would think that the Major-general is saying that the money itself isn't enough. If you read the article though it is clear that he is talking about things besides the money which need to change along with the budget increase.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 15 Oct 2010 19:14

I recall a relative in armed forces ruing the fact that we do not have an integrated long term vision on defense - we simply don’t have the culture of strategic thinking. The bureaucracy and political class simply do not understand it’s importance and the forces have their own inter-service rivalries. Everyone works in isolation.

Take the integrated n/w for a/f for example. Army also wants it's own, separate network. Why cant we have a single robust n/w for all three services?

Kaveri/LCA is another glaring example where the participation from IAF came about only recently. Till a few years back GTRE, HAL were working in isolation from the end user. As a result, although we have the engine (almost complete) but it does not suit IAFs requirements since it was by design made for 80KN thrust. The money has been spent, and more is being spent to get higher thrust engine whereas it may have been avoided if the end user was on board from day one.

Having a vision or a strategic culture for the lack of a better term would help us tremendously in:
1. Achieving set goals
2. Save a lot of $$
3. Save us from having ten horses to pull the same cart

The benefits can be tremendous. Any way it is getting seriously OT now.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 15 Oct 2010 20:02

X-post

When an Air Force UAV was almost shot down at CWG opening!

It was a major security scare on the day of the Commonwealth Games opening ceremony when an IAF’s Unmanned Aerial Vehicle came below the prescribed height -possibly to give its controllers a peep of the spectacle. Sources privy to the CWG security arrangements said on Friday that an Indian Air Force’s UAV had descended below 6,000 feet on the evening of October three.

The aircraft hovered over the Jawaharlal Nehru Stadium to monitor threats of terror outfit Lashker-e-Taiba using para-gliders to disrupt the spectacular ceremony. The anti-aircraft guns, available with the Army, had been mounted atop at various high-rise buildings around the venue to meet any such threats. It was a trying time for security personnel when the UAV came down and the guns were quickly activated as other agencies followed the standard operating procedures (SOP) to establish the identity of the flying object, the sources said.

However, the IAF stepped in immediately and informed that the UAV belonged to them and all pro-active action was put to immediate halt, they added. Asked whether there was a technical failure in the UAV, a senior official said possibly the men manning it at the control room wanted to have a glimpse of the opening ceremony. The vehicle besides maintaining a vigil also beamed images of the spectacle live.

Shocking.. Could have been a disaster.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Oct 2010 20:04

^^^ joint command and operations centre required!!!!
(in general, not just for these events)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Oct 2010 20:12

chackojoseph wrote:^^^^^ it's never enough. Money is never enough.

In my opinion its a confused article. He says money ain't enough, then money returned back. he does not say that FM has promised all the money wanted.

Secondly, a joint planning he says is also tad old. IIRC, both IAF and IN have said that they have planned on their own and keeping in mind the army requirements. If you listen to the NDTV interview, Naik says "supporting Army."

I think, what he wants to say is that Army is getting less funds. or is it Army is not able to spend it?

Then the usual beat on politicians + DRDO + IAF and IN. I think, all these 4 have done a lot of planning and delivery.

Or can someone bring out what he wants to say?

Its a confused, meandering article, full of partisan jabs at all others, including the AF, R&D, for no worthwhile reason.

As you said, the blame & the issues are of everyone else but his own preferred service.

We'd be better off without such dubious penmanship passed off as analysis.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Oct 2010 20:44

the way euros are cutting things to the bone, in a few yrs India will be 2nd powerful AF in the world and a long distance ahead of euros if we consider the NATO countries separately. with hardly any cash to buy adequate number of 4.5gen fighters like EF/rafale to make a strong impact and no 5th gen fighter on the drawing board, EU is fading away...yes there is a neuron or some ucav which will be spun as the next gen air defence.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Oct 2010 20:54

Singhaji, Eu fades only in the security of the eagle's wings and the bear's promises of friendship
times change

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 16 Oct 2010 07:15

DRDO, IAI, MBDA products to Improve Indian Air Force Air Defence Capabilities

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 16 Oct 2010 08:55

Gaur wrote:chackojoseph,
I think you misunderstood the headline. It means that increase in defence budget "alone" is not enough. It has to be supplemented with proper planni-----ket defence deals (even when the services are not). However, the GOI is hardly ever taking interest in defence deals which are very necessary but not big enough in $$$.

Anyhow, how did you get that he was bashing Navy?

Lol, I am getting it back. I nit picked the author, and karma gets back to me. Typically they saw, don't throw stones at others if you live in a glass house.

Karan M wrote:

Its a confused, meandering article, full of partisan jabs at all others, including the AF, R&D, for no worthwhile reason.

As you said, the blame & the issues are of everyone else but his own preferred service.

We'd be better off without such dubious penmanship passed off as analysis.[/quote]

True, that's the impression I still got. Just that Gaur pointed out that what I typed is wrong.

In the Late 1980s, Air Chief Marshal S.K. Kaul at a Conference of Industry and the Air Force said that the IAF Did Not Need a Deep Strike Aircraft . His Advice was Ignored and the Government Went Ahead with a Deal with Russia for Su-30 which is Now the Mainstay of the IAF. Under Almost Similar Conditions Earlier, the Jaguar Aircraft was Acquired at the Behest of the Government.

The SU-30 MKI reference.

One funny thing I will tell you, IAF had studied SU-30 MKI and M2k-5 for long range a/c. AFIK, AM P Rajkumar had done the study. He prepared a huge volume on it. The funny part was M2K was then considered for MMRCA too.

On jag, IAF was looking for a DPSA.

On long term modernization plans, IMO, IAF and Navy have it. IIRC, one of the naval commanders meet, Adm Suresh Mehta had asked the PRO to hand over the modernization (he had made one for PR) plans to the press wallas. Unfortunately, everyone forgot to ask. I had asked, the PR said he will send it to me and I forgot to follow it up.

Similar for IAF. They have their documents.

The jointness, Gaur is talking about is not achievable. Army focus is different from Navy and IAF. IA and Navy (i repeat) have explicitly said that IA support is their priority. I have personally heard it from former chiefs of IN and IAF.

On New thinking and political will. Barring Bofors, its there.

This Belated Correction has Stemmed not from any Rational Analysis but Classic Numerology : Maintaining a 1.2 million-Strong Army, 39 & a Half Squadron Air Force and a 100-Ship Navy.

IN chief have repeatedly said that they are not in numbers game. He said it in presence of press reps from not less than 15 from online, paper and electronic. He said that the numbers have been derived from what our objective is. Not vice versa.

niran · Post by **niran** » 16 Oct 2010 10:20

shukla wrote: Shocking.. Could have been a disaster.

no not shocking, the operative word is

agencies followed the standard operating procedures (SOP) to establish the identity of the flying object,

remember there was a kiddo landing his hawai jahaj in White House compound or when security shot a drunk rambling around the footpath? Indian affsars have had proper protocol and it was followed, that is the system worked which is fantastic. IMVVHO of course.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 16 Oct 2010 10:39

I want to add some more points

No one knows how the military capability exercise is done in India where, leave alone an SDSR, not even a defence review or White Paper has ever been issued. Yet ACM Naik, who is also the current Chairman of the rotating Chief of Staff Committee, said that the new capabilities were “in tune with national aspirations”. He explained, “even Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has said that India’s area of responsibility extends from the Hormuz Straits to the Malacca Straits and beyond.”

You know, what he wrote is contradictory. How can he tell if no one knows? Its like "if UK has done it" and India has not, then there is a problem. Actually, there could have been instance in past. But, read below, (especially the explanation on cold start etc) to understand.

The Army, which has Hogged Funds all this while, is to be Starved of Money for the Modernisation of its Artillery and Air Defence.

everyone knows this is not true. Artillery case, we have discussed to death. Its not for funds.

Each Service does its Future Planning Singly and Not as an Integrated Whole to Achieve a Collective Capability. Service Chiefs Look Out for Clues about Strategic Aspirations from Prime Ministerial Speeches at the Combined Commanders’ Conferences and Other Heady Occasions. The Army is currently engaged in a seminal exercise of transformation which has been “uplinked” with its long-term perspective plans and with those of the other two Services.

few very important notes

1) Service Chiefs Look Out for Clues about Strategic Aspirations from Prime Ministerial Speeches at the Combined Commanders’ Conferences and Other Heady Occasions. : You know, in India, tail cannot wag the dog. PM's are (usually) strategically blind. They are guided by advisers. What they speak, is drafted and cross checked. Another important aspect. If every one remembers, India and US were not in good terms. Now, that USSR has collapsed and US woke up on India, they requested IN to be deployed in Malacca Straits. There is no way services will come up with this forecast. it has to come from PM.

2) The Army is currently engaged in a seminal exercise of transformation which has been “uplinked” with its long-term perspective plans and with those of the other two Services.: I bit my tongue on this earlier. You see Army is very late in this.

3) For past few years, the scenarios have been changing rapidly. For ex, the Cold start. How much time Cold start has taken to evolve? The Army came up with 2.5 wars and is still in conceptual stage. How can joint planning be possible? In this case IN and IAF will be planning for something after Army has finished planning and setting up requirements. its better for IN and IAF to build capabilities for their own and then when Army comes up with requirements, allocate and create assets needed.

I am not trying to out down the author. I am only trying to tell what my opinion is.

venku_Raj · Post by **venku_Raj** » 16 Oct 2010 15:25

Jagan wrote:Reg Spin training and hawks, Air Marshal RAjkumar wrote an article on the Hawk/Alphajet evaluation - Spin Training was a must have criteria - The Alphajet came up tops in terms of the Spinning characteristics. The article was published in Vayu and is a great read if someone can scan it. (It probably was, must be somewhere on the forum).

Here it is Sir , enjoy

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 16 Oct 2010 16:19

The French CDS' visit comes at a time when the two countries are also poised to clinch the over $2.1 billion deal to upgrade the 56 multi-role Mirage-2000s, first inducted in the mid-1980s, in IAF combat fleet. The deal is likely to be inked during Sarkozy's visit, as reported earlier. India and France have been negotiating the upgrade of the Mirage-2000s for over three years but it is only now that they have narrowed down their differences over the project cost.

The upgrade price earlier being demanded by French companies Dassault Aviation (aircraft manufacturer), Thales (weapons systems integrator) and MBDA (missile supplier) was around 30% more than what India was ready to pay. In the upgrade, the fighters will get new avionics, radars, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites, jam-proof communication with data links, weapon delivery and precision-targeting systems, including all-weather, fire-and-forget MICA (interception and aerial combat missiles) systems. The first four to six Mirages will be upgraded in France, while the rest will be upgraded in India by Hindustan Aeronautics with transfer of technology.

This seems to be a very deep upgrade. Except the airframe and the engine almost everything else would be changed. I suppose we are getting our Vajras' to the Mirage 2000-5 levels. To me it appears that we are almost getting a Rafale in Mirage 2000 clothing.

K

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 16 Oct 2010 17:47

India should focus on comprehensive defence capability build-up: Air Chief

Air Chief Marshal Naik said specifying nations threats, whether external or internal, would only lead to an arms race. "What I wish to state is long ago we realised that being threat specific or being country specific will only lead to an arms race. What you should go in for is a comprehensive capability build-up based on the country's aspirations. That is what we have been indulging in," he said.

"We need to look at the entire environment around the country. It doesn't matter whether the country is near or far, bigger or small," said Air Chief Marshal Naik on the sidelines of an International Conference on Energising Indian Aerospace Industry here today.

"You look at the entire environment and any factor which is likely to affect the growth of your country and you cater for it in your plans which have to be very long term and which cannot be country-specific. The plans have to be capability specific," he added. Air Chief Marshal Naik further stated that the Indian Air Force has made a long-term perspective plan, which stretched upto 2022, in which they have specified the types of capabilities extrapolating from what is currently available. "This would be reviewed every three years," he said.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 16 Oct 2010 22:33

Kersi D wrote:This seems to be a very deep upgrade. Except the airframe and the engine almost everything else would be changed. I suppose we are getting our Vajras' to the Mirage 2000-5 levels. To me it appears that we are almost getting a Rafale in Mirage 2000 clothing. K

Nowhere close to the Rafale Sirji. Rafale is a different ballgame altogether, and an underpowered M2K is not going anywhere near it, not without an ESA radar, OSF and SPECTRA type suite.

Yes, it will surely have some elements elements from the Rafale, most likely in the EW component. But that is about all. As deep and comprehensive as this upgrade is, it still gives you the same thirsty and underpowered M-53s.

I believe more than anything else, it is weapons that contribute to the massive price of $ 2.1 billion. One hopes that they will include a few Scalps and AASMs along with the Micas in this exhorbitant deal.

JMT
CM

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 17 Oct 2010 00:55

Gaur wrote: There are many other "must watch" video compilation of the film available on youtube (some of them even in HD).

Gaur sir,
Could you post a list of them???
Pardon the OT..

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 17 Oct 2010 02:49

^^
I have posted some youtube links in "Military Multimedia Content" thread.
PS: There is really no need for addressing me as "sir".

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 17 Oct 2010 06:36

x-post

IAF press relase
Reports of UAV Descent below Prescribed Height Limits on Oct 3 Incorrect

The report that has appeared in some sections of the media on October 16, stating that an IAF UAV descended below 6,000 feet on the evening of October 3, during the opening ceremony of CWG, is factually incorrect.

It is clarified that at no stage did any IAF UAV maintaining vigil in the vicinity of the CWG venue, descend below the stipulated height band of 6,000 feet during the entire period of air defence exercise of the just concluded CWG. The IAF strongly denies the report.

It may be mentioned that the Delhi Integrated Air Defence Control (DIADC) was manned jointly by IAF and other security agencies including aerial monitoring of activities. To suggest that the personnel manning may have wanted to have a glimpse of the opening ceremony is too farfetched.

It is also clarified that the responsibility of activating all elements of air defence including that of anti-aircraft guns and missiles was with the IAF. None of them were ordered to be activated at any stage.

I hope this draws an end to this 'uncalled for' controversy in an otherwise spotless security issues record for the games!

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 17 Oct 2010 10:44

X-Post

Finally Confessions

"JF-17 Not As Advanced As LCA, But It Can Drop Bombs" : Nawaz Sharif

Clicky for Bigger Scan

Air Cmde (Retd) Parvez H Khokhar served as India's Air Advisor in Pakistan and is also former Project Director (Flight Test) on the Light Combat Aircraft programme.

Copyright & Courtesy Vayu

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 17 Oct 2010 12:18

Is there any updates about the status of IJT-36 Sitara? as when it will going to complete and achieve IOC and FOC?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 17 Oct 2010 13:08

IAF's C-130J-30 Special Forces Super Hercules

The Famous In-Flight Refueling da Danda

arun · Post by **arun** » 17 Oct 2010 14:42

X Posted Article which speaks of :

1.RFI for an AEW&C
2.RFP for Mid Air Refuellers
3.Update on the 22 Attack and 15 Heavy Lift Helicopter acquisition plans of the IAF.
4.Negotiations for C-17 Globemaster III proceeding smoothly:

TOI

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 17 Oct 2010 20:40

Cain Marko wrote:
Kersi D wrote:This seems to be a very deep upgrade. Except the airframe and the engine almost everything else would be changed. I suppose we are getting our Vajras' to the Mirage 2000-5 levels. To me it appears that we are almost getting a Rafale in Mirage 2000 clothing. K
Nowhere close to the Rafale Sirji. Rafale is a different ballgame altogether, and an underpowered M2K is not going anywhere near it, not without an ESA radar, OSF and SPECTRA type suite.

Yes, it will surely have some elements elements from the Rafale, most likely in the EW component. But that is about all. As deep and comprehensive as this upgrade is, it still gives you the same thirsty and underpowered M-53s.

I believe more than anything else, it is weapons that contribute to the massive price of $ 2.1 billion. One hopes that they will include a few Scalps and AASMs along with the Micas in this exhorbitant deal.

JMT
CM

Right.
I said that the airframe and engine ( "same thirsty and underpowered M-53s" ) will be unchanged. I am not sure which radar will be fitted to our M2000 UPG. Could it be a ESA ?

MICA may be a part of the deal but I doubt if we get the Scalp. If we do then o boy we are great !!

K