MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Mar 2011 09:52

the news I had was the arabs are indeed having a lot of local pilots now, and some of them very good individually at pure flying....cost is no object if someone wants to put in long flying hours.

but in terms of operational planning , teamwork, weapons -- ie fighting a real war, they may be sub-par and in any case depend on vendor contractors a lot to keep the ground services in order , these foreigners may depart if the airbases are targeted.

1-vs-1 in a kind of aerial cagematch they can put up a good show imo.

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 31 Mar 2011 10:49

Lalmohan wrote:

shukla's article is LM lifafa. since LM knows that F16IN is not going to win, they are queering the pitch for MMRCA in order to clear space (or create doubt in mind) for the JSF
not to be taken seriously

That explaines why he insinuates the F-35 as the better option (a ridiculous pipe dream).

My suggestion of cancelling the MRCA in favour of the Tejas and possibly 40/60 more Su-30MKI's is not dependent on what Shukla wrote (I am too disillusioned and frustrated with Indian reporters on defense matters to take them serious) but rather by common sense.

A general remark:

There a lot of circular reasoning, particularly in this thread. There is this disease, quite often observed amongst Indians, of being a smart aleck (the Argumentative Indian Syndrome), they'll point out why something you bring up is not possible, but completely overlook the fact that the same argument could be applied to whatever they propose as a solution. Many Indians are expert in pointing out why something "can not be done" (in India/by Indians, etc.), and that is all they are "expert" in. The truly capable Indians have no time for blahblah, the just go ahead and do "the impossible". Case in point would be Kota Harinarayana and the team behind the Tejas.

manum · Post by **manum** » 31 Mar 2011 11:57

there was nothing overarching about my statement about Arabs flying warplane. And I wont be posting links from google to fabricate an opinion and derail stuff...

But the above statement of Indians tenedency of saying most of things not possible is basically related to many people doing impossible things...that is why more and more people doing impossible things and more and more saying not possible...

Atleast we don't need to hire critic and go getters they both are Indian father and son and so on...

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 31 Mar 2011 12:11

If i am not wrong French are asking 3 billion for M2k Upgrade ,at most this aircraft will be in front line service at best for 10 more years and then they will fall back to second line after Pak-Fa and FGFA comes in the picture , so at the best we are looking at 15 years of service since they have are already served 25 years , why can't we get some brand new MKI or MMRCA or even Better Purchase more Tejas MK-2 , i know how well M2k performed in Kargil war for us , but things have changed with upgrades to Mig-27 and Jaguars . and now even our Pure Interceptor Mig-29 A/B will be able to take ground target after their upgrades ,so we have more options available in hand compared to a decade ago

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Mar 2011 13:37

Multatuli wrote:There is this disease, quite often observed amongst Indians, of being a smart aleck (the Argumentative Indian Syndrome), they'll point out why something you bring up is not possible, but completely overlook the fact that the same argument could be applied to whatever they propose as a solution.

Actually a lot of people who do this will never propose any solution. They are expert only at knocking down anything anyone else says.

A common tactic is to ask a question with arguing with an opinion you post and keep saying that you have not answered the question. The minute you answer it - it serves as fodder to be knocked down. They never ever commit anything themselves or post any independent opinion other than opposition to what you say, because they know their goolies will be squeezed if they do. It's called trolling.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 31 Mar 2011 15:52

shukla's article is LM lifafa. since LM knows that F16IN is not going to win, they are queering the pitch for MMRCA in order to clear space (or create doubt in mind) for the JSF
not to be taken seriously

Just thinking out loud:

It does seem to imply that, in this age and time, that Shukla is better placed than IAF people. Just like the post quoted below why is Shukla's article not a common sense thinking from his angle? I find it very hard to believe when anyone within IAF could lift a secure phone or send an email to anyone to gather pertinent information that they would be less informed than Shukla.

Is he trying to or paid to sway people......? IF true, sure, part of the game.

That explaines why he insinuates the F-35 as the better option (a ridiculous pipe dream).

My suggestion of cancelling the MRCA in favour of the Tejas and possibly 40/60 more Su-30MKI's is not dependent on what Shukla wrote (I am too disillusioned and frustrated with Indian reporters on defense matters to take them serious) but rather by common sense.

We drove a guy, sometime back, who all he posted was this thought: drop the MMRCA and replace it with the LCA!!!! And, he had the courtesy to say "Thank you" every time. Just that thought drove us nuts!!! And, now it seems to have become main stream!!

There a lot of circular reasoning, particularly in this thread. There is this disease, quite often observed amongst Indians, of being a smart aleck (the Argumentative Indian Syndrome), they'll point out why something you bring up is not possible, but completely overlook the fact that the same argument could be applied to whatever they propose as a solution. Many Indians are expert in pointing out why something "can not be done" (in India/by Indians, etc.), and that is all they are "expert" in. The truly capable Indians have no time for blahblah, the just go ahead and do "the impossible". Case in point would be Kota Harinarayana and the team behind the Tejas.

Crabbing. There was a joke about Indians related to this topic - I heard it in the 70s.

On the flip side this attitude has somewhat declined. Attribute it to globalization.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Mar 2011 16:55

karan has an excellent point from both economic and strategic terms. we need to rethink our policy on renewals and upgrades, where it gets specified what can and what can not, and what all parameters apply. Replacing an engine can be for service related activity and can't be an upgrade unless it is an home grown product. Upgrade should have time scope per 2-5 year basis depending on the upgrade aspect, and after that span, all equipments must consider product depreciation before it becomes dead weight or deprecated.

Working with local industry has always been a low life cycle cost, and it has been proven healthy for both economic and strategic reason. So, all upgrades should be from home based integration and r&d point. Perhaps get that documented in the MRCA contract, where say after 20 years life time, all upgrades, 100% we have total rights for changing or altering the plane to suit our needs.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2011 17:47

^^^^ its not right to throw away the m2k's. MMRCA's ain't coming tomorrow. Besides, even after 15 years, there should be good resale value for m2k's Some nation may buy it. Remember Mirage III's? They do come with a very good shelf life. Not all nations are going to operate 5th gen in next 25 years.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Mar 2011 18:25

depreciation need not be understood as throwing away [dead weight is what you should look at].

well, it is up to our strategic minds to reuse it with in the limits of such guidelines. I know it is a hard concept for SDRE reuse strategy to consume.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Mar 2011 18:29

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/03/ ... -full.html

From the above link;

It's worth noting that the patrol of 2 Rafale shown in these pictures is carrying a powerful mix of 4 GBU-12 and 6 AASM... a firepower which equals to 5 Mirage 2000Ds.

Added later...I amended the above quote to state 2 Rafale and not 1 Rafale. I don't work for Dassault

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Mar 2011 18:31

^there you go!

5 mirage upgrades ~ 1 Rafale.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Mar 2011 18:35

Nice Indeed , I would say if we have to go for European Aircraft , lets go for Rafale , there is no khichidi of many nations and Rafale is a balanced aircraft in Strike/AD role like the MKI.

French desperately need an export customer , lets make most of it.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Mar 2011 18:43

SaiK wrote:^there you go!

5 mirage upgrades ~ 1 Rafale.

~ 2 Rafale. Please see my post above. My apologies Sai. But still a formidable capability. Just saving on the gas alone to fly 5 Mirage 2000s vs 2 Rafale Bs is huge. Not to mention wear & tear on the airframe, reduced stress on pilots, etc.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 31 Mar 2011 19:08

Boeing optimistic regarding mmrca chances..

On the Indian Air Force contract for 126 combat planes, Chadwick said the deal is expected to be awarded later this year or early next year. "I think with best intentions, the IAF will want to get to the finish line sooner rather than later, but what they want to ensure is that the process they take to the final selection is fair," he said.

Six companies worldwide have been chosen to bid for the estimated $10 billion fighter jet contract, the largest in the world for 15 years. Lockheed and Boeing are pitted against aircraft from United Aircraft Corp., France's Dassault Aviation SA, pan-European manufacturer Eurofighter Typhoon Gmbh and Sweden's Saab AB.

Chadwick said if Boeing is selected for the fighter jet contract, it is in a position to rapidly deliver the planes to India. "We have the ability to provide a more rapid production approach for the IAF, should they choose to do it, that can get aircraft quicker into their inventory than they planned," he said. "We can ramp up and still work with partners to deliver those quicker."

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-201 ... 09868.html

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 31 Mar 2011 23:04

chackojoseph wrote:^^^^ its not right to throw away the m2k's. MMRCA's ain't coming tomorrow. Besides, even after 15 years, there should be good resale value for m2k's Some nation may buy it. Remember Mirage III's? They do come with a very good shelf life. Not all nations are going to operate 5th gen in next 25 years.

I never said retire them now , we can with or with out help of Israelis can locally upgrade them , MMRCA's ain't coming tomorrow that's right, neither upgraded M2k ,as per sunday guardian first Upgraded M2k will come only after 40 months that freaking 3 years . only country which brought old retired Mirage-III was Pakistan only to be used as spares since they that largest Mirage-III fleet outside France and with production closed decades ago they had little choice and Qatar has been trying to sell there more advanced 12 M2K-5 variants for close to a decade now still no buyers , Only air forces IAF will be concerned will be PLAAF and PAF and i am pretty sure in next decade (10 years) J-20 will hit production and after 5 more years it will be available for export to friendly countries ,where PAF tops the list

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Apr 2011 23:21

Ministry posers tie down jet deal
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110401/j ... 799421.jsp

Indeed, in the defence ministry itself, there are conflicting views on whether a CNC (contract negotiation committee) will at all be required

malli · Post by **malli** » 01 Apr 2011 23:28

somehow all we are bothered about is whether the cat is white or brown. we just dont care whether it can catch any mice becos we really dont care that it will. its very fortituis that i happened to read a quote by Chamberlain today that the Indians are so very keen on America's support but just dont want to listen to its advice.
his quote is applicable even today after 60 years. why?? we remain the same grand historical fools that we were a HALF CENTURY AGO.
coming to the MMRCA. stop the hair splitting. against China who would want us to give a bloody nose. analise history. feel free. eighty F-16's have freed the UAE from Iran likewise 72 f-16'S give options to Taiwan. we should all understand. less than 50 F-16's gave the pakistanis enough reason to plan campaigns against the IAF. Why??
the teens are amazingly vulnerable in WVR.
the teens never fought in an uncontrolled airspace.
the teens never have any maintenance issues.-- look at the iranians they are still flying the 14teens.
I just hope our cussedness doesnt inform our decisions.
just imagine if nehru was a product of the American right rather than the Bristish left.
we probably would have been far closer to china.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 02 Apr 2011 00:15

"M-MRCA Selection To Showcase Independence & Professionalism": Indian MOD

the near unanimous sense -- from rumours, reports, leaks, hearsay, background briefings -- is that the big European twins, the Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon -- are the IAF's two most preferred aircraft, and in that order

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Apr 2011 00:21

heh heh. hopefully the more balanced and pragmatic product wins - ze rafale.

the amraamC7/D is likely a superior ranged missile to the Mica EM though. and Unkil can easily change the pakis C5 lot to C7 or better to "punish" us.

so Meteor integration will need to be timely to have a longer spear.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Apr 2011 00:24

Balle Balle

GO Katrina GO!!!

Alas don’t think will be able to open the champagne and start the barfi distribution

Singha wrote:and Unkil can easily change the pakis C5 lot to C7 or better to "punish" us.

Or even give them the F-35

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Apr 2011 01:42

Admiral ji, will we get mithai if the Jahaj-e-eurostan wins?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 02 Apr 2011 01:52

New Offset Rules Won’t Apply to Multi-Role Fighter Contract : MoD
The Indian Express

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Apr 2011 02:43

Nihat wrote:"M-MRCA Selection To Showcase Independence & Professionalism": Indian MOD

the near unanimous sense -- from rumours, reports, leaks, hearsay, background briefings -- is that the big European twins, the Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon -- are the IAF's two most preferred aircraft, and in that order

Nicely put:

The air force is the customer, not the Ministry of External Affairs.

That should wrap up any confusion on "strategic" front.

malli · Post by **malli** » 02 Apr 2011 03:23

nihat and nachiketa,
the euro twins may be the favourites but they are also the most expensive. probably that will kill them both.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Apr 2011 03:24

^^^ This effectively would mean that the F-16, F-18, and most probably the Mig-35 is out of the race.

But then these days there is no dearth of planted news

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 02 Apr 2011 05:08

IAF’s mega buy delay to cost $1 bn
Financial Express

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 02 Apr 2011 05:44

shukla wrote:IAF’s mega buy delay to cost $1 bn
Financial Express

form the above---

For the second time in row, the commercial bid validity of the six contenders for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) will be extended which may cost the government $1 billion more over and above the $10.4 billion for 126 planes.

what is happening-- already taking its own sweet time in finalising the deal, then the delays.
dont think so the military brass will take such a time. suspect like a political decision or indecision.
Is the west asia issue taking its toll and performance being watched- real action as opposed to tests in India.
shivering in dhoti/lungi as the case may be.

At least the more time it takes,the less chance of mig 35(never had a chance), f-16 and possibly gripen.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Apr 2011 06:04

A 1000 seat license of Microsoft Project would have cost much less.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Apr 2011 06:06

sure.. on the offsets, but let them show us the tech, then we will show them the money.

desi ishtyle.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 02 Apr 2011 06:07

Not directly related to the thread; however gives an insight into Indian thinking
Arms deal diplomacy

Ministry posers tie down jet deal- Questions to competing vendors for one of the single-largest military orders

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Apr 2011 06:33

VinodTK wrote: Arms deal diplomacy

In this addressing of systemic differences, the US support to our national security concerns and the rapidity of the change has not yet sunk in.

Relations with Russia have also moved from “friendship prices” to “international prices” but Moscow was not following the globally accepted norms of military trade that involves sustained support with spares and equipment through the lifecycle of the hardware.

And despite the stability of the strategic partnership with the Soviet Union since 1971, there were differences in the relationship that disconcerted India, says Sen.

More than the threat perceived from Pakistan, the current emphasis on military modernisation in India is against the backdrop of a rapid upgrade by China’s armed forces, Sen pointed out.

Ultimately, India’s political leadership will have to take a call on its strategic partnerships: if that entails signing pacts like the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) and the Logistics Support Agreement (LSA) with the US, it will have to be done.

Sen said that there was more to the 123 Agreement with the US than nuclear energy. “It was a key to open a door and once you have opened the door you may find many other doors and windows of opportunity,” he said.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 02 Apr 2011 07:23

^^ "it will have to be done" of course by "India".

So many stupid US laws even for platforms like c130.

How can US ever be expected to be equivalent partner like russkies, who are giving their opposite number of "Sea Wolf" for lease to India and not to mention the help with Arihant. Can we ever expect to see US helping us in such matters without their "Laws" coming in the way. Nope, no partnership is possible.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Apr 2011 07:36

mig 29s are getting toasted!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Apr 2011 07:49

Manish_Sharma wrote:^^ "it will have to be done" of course by "India".

So many stupid US laws even for platforms like c130.

How can US ever be expected to be equivalent partner like russkies, who are giving their opposite number of "Sea Wolf" for lease to India and not to mention the help with Arihant. Can we ever expect to see US helping us in such matters without their "Laws" coming in the way. Nope, no partnership is possible.

True.

However, what Sen is rightly stating is that ALL this is a strategic issue.

Also, it WAS the USSR that helped India, NOT Russia. Whatever Russia is doing is a strategic play too. And, as he states (and has been discussed here ad nauseum), Russia is also taking her share of flesh and blood. Just part of the game. Sukhoi probably would not be where it is right now if it were not for India. The Chakra and supposedly a second sub have been resurrected by India. Similarly, the support for the Arihant. They are all business deals + have strategic value. Recall that when the US put her foot down the USSR did not extend the lease on the older Chakra. Also, when the US put her foot down WRT the cryogenic engines Russia capitulated. Just part of the game. It happens. Not a topic for emotions.

I very strongly feel that what happens in China will influence Indo-US relations. My feel is that they will have to grow closer. No option there. How much influence each will have is a point for debate. Another thread.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Apr 2011 08:00

Low RCS?

vs.

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 02 Apr 2011 13:07

From Arms deal diplomacy

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110402/j ... 800376.jsp

Though there was debate in India on conditionalities the US put on the transfer of military equipment, US controls on arms sales to Pakistan would be more rigid, he said

It doesn't surprise me that someone like Ronen Sen would try to sell Indians the F-16/F-18, he was also in the "main man" for the US when it came to selling any and all restrictions on India the Americans wanted included in the Indo-US nuclear agreement. And now Indians should be grateful to gora sahibs for placing "more rigid controls" on the Packee F-16.

Each country is lobbying the Indian government intensely for the order, but probably none as publicly as the US. US Ambassador Timothy Roemer said only last month that the future of India-US strategic relations depended in large measure on the award of the IAF contract to a US firm.

Totally unacceptable behaviour from the Americans, it's a pointer to the kind of bullying the Americans will mete out to India in any future "strategic partnership". This is precisely how they pressure S-Korea, Japan and other countries to buy American wares, even if it's not the best for their needs.

Sen said that military purchases should be guided with the need “to reduce our dependence and to increase inter-dependence”.

Such chutzpah!

Sen said that there was more to the 123 Agreement with the US than nuclear energy. “It was a key to open a door and once you have opened the door you may find many other doors and windows of opportunity,” he said.

Yeah, there is plenty of opportunity for the DIE and the likes of Sen to sell out India. Many have said that buying any one of the American contenders would be an act of treason: I am of the same opinion.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 02 Apr 2011 14:26

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/ia ... n/770597/0

In the MRCA article loved this part

Technical Oversight Committee (ToC)

What creativity our babus have!! I am sure after the deal is finalised there would a Technical Hindsight Committee(THC) to look at the deal from a new perspective.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 02 Apr 2011 14:59

Arunkumar wrote:http://www.financialexpress.com/news/ia ... n/770597/0

In the MRCA article loved this part
Technical Oversight Committee (ToC)

What creativity our babus have!! I am sure after the deal is finalised there would a Technical Hindsight Committee(THC) to look at the deal from a new perspective.

We are missing a tantalizing tit-bit in this very short article

The Air Chief Marshal PV Naik had recently announced that by March end the price negotiation for the mother of all deals will take off.

However, sources revealed that “those who have been shortlisted have to be given enough time to get ready for the talks, with this extension, the negotiations for the Offsets too will get delayed.”

It is worth repeating, "those who have been shortlisted." Who are these ? And does this mean that IAF/MoD/GoI has a shortlist among the 6 contenders?

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 02 Apr 2011 18:01

New offset rules won’t apply to multi-role fighter contract: MoD

Lolz

another scam
wonder what they were deciding all these years
This will decide who will be the winner

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Apr 2011 19:30

The Rafale and the Typhoon always impressed the IAF from the get go and the subsequent trials proved that. The powers that be got wind of that fact and took every opportunity to discredit the aircraft so the GOI/MoD (the buyer) will never purchase the aircraft for the Vayu Sena (the user). The news leak about the Rafale being booted out of the MMRCA competition in 2010 and now Dassault's point man in India being declared persona non grata all points to the intense lobbying efforts by the powers that be. Really sad.