Islamic Sectarianism

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Agnimitra
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by Agnimitra »

Ramana ji, continuing from the West Asia thread post:
ramana wrote:The fundamental issue in the schism is succession:by birth (Shia) or by capability (Sunni). I dont think it will be papered over. Lets discuss this in the Islamism thread.
Firstly, what I meant was the political impasse between the two communities that started with the rise of the Safavids. Up until then Shi'a were political passive, but still managed to live mostly peacefully in Arab and Persian territories ruled by Sunnis. the rise of Safavid power caused nervousness in Ottoman Turkey and they started to purge Shi'as in territories under their control (famous example is Sheikh Bahai's family's flight from Lebanon to Persia), further deepening the political split. This split became so deep that it had repurcussions even in Indo-Islamic communities. Even Western powers were then able to use this split. What I'm saying is that this political polarization could possibly be reduced when pan-Arabism aligns with pan-Islamism.

As for the root of the doctrinal split which you referred to above, Sunni authorities like Imam Hanbal himself has differentiated between the categories of Ahl-ul-Bayt and ranks of "Afdhaliyyah". So if there is a will, then Sunni doctrine has the capacity to accommodate Shi'ism. In the past that will was not there, because Sunnis first enjoyed unchallenged power, and later they did not see the rise of the West totally overwhelming Islamic civilization. Today, the pressure of circumstances and the opportiunities for resurgence as a power bloc may provide the motives for reformation or amalgamation.

As for India, it is interesting to look at how the Shia-Hindu-Sunni triangle and the politics during the middle ages evolved. Generally the Shi'a princes had a better appreciation for Indic culture, there was some level of mutual participation in each other's festivals, and Shi'a kings would often have Hindu advisors in high places. E.g. The Quli Qutb Shahi regime that founded Hyderabad Deccan versus the later Asif Jahis who were Aurangzeb's puppets. Then there is also the story of "Hosseini Mohyal Brahmins" in Punjab who supposedly came to Kerbala. These links can be explored.
ramana
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by ramana »

But you see the Safavids were all Persio-Turks and not Periso-Arab as earlier rulers in Middle East. So in reality the modern Shia-Sunni split is really about Persians and Arabs(with wannabe Arabs like Turks etc.) The odd thing is the Ottomons in those days wrote in Farsi and Safavids in Turkish!

Add to the mix the re-Arabising of Islam under the Wahabis who consider all others lesser followers.
svinayak
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:But you see the Safavids were all Persio-Turks and not Periso-Arab as earlier rulers in Middle East. So in reality the modern Shia-Sunni split is really about Persians and Arabs(with wannabe Arabs like Turks etc.) The odd thing is the Ottomons in those days wrote in Farsi and Safavids in Turkish!

Add to the mix the re-Arabising of Islam under the Wahabis who consider all others lesser followers.
Ottomons created a sort of unity in the Islamic history for a brief time until they could not compete and survive.
This unity is being tried again but it is too much fragmented.
Agnimitra
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by Agnimitra »

ramana wrote:But you see the Safavids were all Persio-Turks and not Periso-Arab as earlier rulers in Middle East. So in reality the modern Shia-Sunni split is really about Persians and Arabs(with wannabe Arabs like Turks etc.) The odd thing is the Ottomons in those days wrote in Farsi and Safavids in Turkish!
Yes its complex, today also. See the Safavid leadership was Azeri and the footsoldiers were mostly Turkoman Qizilbash. Now among the Azeri there is controversy about their own identity. Many Persianized Azeri scholars have written that Azeris are racially Iranic but linguistically Turkified. However some of them believe they are also racially Turks who took Persian, Armenian and Kurdish wives for many generations. In any case, the Azeris do believe they have some degree of kinship with Persians.

In modern Turkey, many "Alevis" are actually Zazaki Kurds, who have been erroneously subsumed under Turkic identity. So here the faultlines are not just religious but also racial.

The Safavids eventually became totally Persianized. In fact they moved away from their Turkoman guard and even had a Georgian personal guard. Nevertheless, in modern Iran the most "Islamist" sections usually tend to be an Azeri underclass. They feel more strongly that their identity is closely wrapped with Shi'iite history than do ordinary Persians. Khomeini was of Azeri ancestry I believe. Even "Green Movement" icon Mousavi is Azeri.

If we go into details then there are many hairs that can be split in the Middle East. However, the fact is that pan-Islamism does have the ability to consolidate, but that would depend on the sharing and distribution of power. The main Gordian knot here is the Persian-Arab/Turk equation. The analysis should not waste too much time splitting hairs over tribal identities there, but more about who will inherit the mantle of pan-Islamic imperium - at the cost of the other. In that sense onlee its about splitting heirs (pun intended).
ramana
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by ramana »

I agree its about who dons the pan Islamism mantle.(Green Mantle!)



*Greenmantle was a book by John Buchan of a British agent who stirs up the ummah against the Turks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenmantle
brihaspati
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by brihaspati »

Indians have tried to play this supposed-play-acting game of pretension. Using Shia's against Sunnis and vice versa. The medieval history is not very encouraging about the fallouts of this. Encouraging the Shia elements in the Bahmani conglomerate did not lead to happy results in the end for Vijaynagar.

The mercantile element of "financial profits onlee" section that survives within the trans-Indian networks - have always used such opportunities to "sell off". Islam saw to it that "accommodation" never went to the extent that the fundamental identity and ideological consistency were jeopardized. "Hindus" to a lesser extent, and Buddhists to a much larger extent - failed to understand the crucial necessity of the second parallel sense in which "dharma" was used as a concept - "that which holds".

Accommodation is no longer a viable strategy. If talks of accommodation comes up - it is either an unknowing or conscious - preparation to sell off, if necessary. Accommodation is all the more risky because of the mercantile mentality presence. We should hold out the promise of this "mercantile" space to those who are yet "have-nots" in this mercantile domain - as a dual tactic of replacing the unreliable and potentially betraying existing ones, as well as putting up new "people". They too will eventually regenerate the same old selling off mentality perhaps - but that is for another generation to take care of. The price of freedom is after all constant surveillance and readiness to undertake purges in cycles.
Agnimitra
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by Agnimitra »

brihaspati wrote:Indians have tried to play this supposed-play-acting game of pretension. Using Shia's against Sunnis and vice versa. The medieval history is not very encouraging about the fallouts of this. Encouraging the Shia elements in the Bahmani conglomerate did not lead to happy results in the end for Vijaynagar.
B ji, I acknowledge this, but today we're in a different position from Vijayanagar and Islamist dominance over the subcontinent. So we can still play the game, but on different terms.

Aside: I came across this hilarious freudian slip from Fox News. It does look like someone there thinks of using Egypt to block Iranian dominance reaching the Mediterranean!

Image
Virupaksha
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by Virupaksha »

Carl wrote:B ji, I acknowledge this, but today we're in a different position from Vijayanagar and Islamist dominance over the subcontinent. So we can still play the game, but on different terms.
Carl ji,

What are the different terms, how are we in a different (and possibly better in your view on certain issues) than Vijayanagar, how do these different positions affect the difference on terms. Why do you think it will succeed and what do you think will succeed. Basically what is your end game.

Basically can you please expound.
Agnimitra
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by Agnimitra »

^^^ Virupaksha ji, I'm not a pundit qualified to expound, but certain differences with Vijayanagara's situation do seem obvious. A geostrategic game involving identity politics is possible by "auctioning" India's support and economic/military weight to ME countries based on certain factors.

Unlike Vijanagara's times,
1. Islamists don't control the whole of North India anymore leaving us fighting for the peninsula.

2. Islamists are today under pressure from the West, and are not the global technological superpower. Rather, they are currently in a phase of attempting to re-accumulate that knowledge from the West and other sources.

3. India has good working relations with the West, while some of them do not (such as Iran), but these countries need a via media to conduct relations with Western economies and culture without "losing face". Enter India. In a way, just like CA/ME controls oil pipelines, India can position itself similarly as an Eastern transit hub on the information and cultural superhighways of the world.

4. With some pro-active effort we can create new equtions with Iran and other countries, and let the Shi'a-Hindu-Sunni equations play out mainly in our footprint in the ME -- not inside our own country.

India's cultural wizardry would hook into the following circuits:
1. Shi'a - Sunni internecine politics and our theological and cultural engagement with each of them separately.

2. A specially created Indo-Iranian cultural space with emphasis on pre-Islamic commonality as well as degree of civilization, as distinct from semi-nomadic roots of Turko-Indian and Indian-Arab cultural space. The Shia vs. Sunni and the Iranic vs. non-Iranic spaces are not the same. There is overlap. This overlap provides additional traction to forces that can make fundamental changes to identity politics in the CA/ME/NA regions. There will be some ripped seams...

3. Our unique position as an independent regional power that has, both, good relations with Amrika and with Moslem nations. That way isolated nations like Iran need us in order to conduct necessary economic, social and educational intercourse with the West.

Those are some basic thoughts. The details could become interesting when we consider the Kurdish question, countries like Tajikistan, etc.
ramana
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by ramana »

Carl, You are not getting the virus that the Brits/US released thru the Wahabandis.
Its not the old Sunnis anymore.
Its re-Arabised reset Islam to 700AD.
Ibn Rashid et al are passe.
brihaspati
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by brihaspati »

Carl wrote:^^^ Virupaksha ji, I'm not a pundit qualified to expound, but certain differences with Vijayanagara's situation do seem obvious. A geostrategic game involving identity politics is possible by "auctioning" India's support and economic/military weight to ME countries based on certain factors.

Unlike Vijanagara's times,
1. Islamists don't control the whole of North India anymore leaving us fighting for the peninsula.
You would be surprised. Islamists have always pulled a disproportionate weight compared to their actual numbers - simply because their theology explicitly frees them of guilt and other restrictions in their dealings with the non-Muslim - and because non-Muslims especially in India have never understood the mercantile interest networks that have always hedged their profits by kissing both sides. The scenario for UP+Bihar+WB is already quite in their favour. They are only at most 25-30% by population [not by census] but they have enough punch to block the remaining 70% politically.
2. Islamists are today under pressure from the West, and are not the global technological superpower. Rather, they are currently in a phase of attempting to re-accumulate that knowledge from the West and other sources.
When Arabs won "spectacular" victories - they were not technologically superior. It was careful seizure of opportunities and taqyia - continuous taqyia and murderous ruthless betrayal of their old allies and tolerant societies. It was simply the ideological reorientation.
3. India has good working relations with the West, while some of them do not (such as Iran), but these countries need a via media to conduct relations with Western economies and culture without "losing face". Enter India. In a way, just like CA/ME controls oil pipelines, India can position itself similarly as an Eastern transit hub on the information and cultural superhighways of the world.
Two important nitpicks : India's relationship with the west is built upon the efforts of a largely "Hindu" subpopulation which prides itself on being "adaptive" and "tolerant" of west's own intolerance of the "Hindu". The regime fostered relationship does not hamper a single iota of the essential theological imperialist hatred that the ruling circles of the west have for India - especially the non-Abrahamic Indians.

India's positioning is firmly based on a so-called "secular" pretension at the bi-lateral regime level - that in fact positions itself also as firmly against "Hindu". In this therefore India's collaboration is not conditional on matching recognition by the west of India's protected identity space. This understanding is more based on elite interest networks and not necessarily of mutual recognition of cultural space at the sub-elite level.
4. With some pro-active effort we can create new equtions with Iran and other countries, and let the Shi'a-Hindu-Sunni equations play out mainly in our footprint in the ME -- not inside our own country.

India's cultural wizardry would hook into the following circuits:
1. Shi'a - Sunni internecine politics and our theological and cultural engagement with each of them separately.

2. A specially created Indo-Iranian cultural space with emphasis on pre-Islamic commonality as well as degree of civilization, as distinct from semi-nomadic roots of Turko-Indian and Indian-Arab cultural space. The Shia vs. Sunni and the Iranic vs. non-Iranic spaces are not the same. There is overlap. This overlap provides additional traction to forces that can make fundamental changes to identity politics in the CA/ME/NA regions. There will be some ripped seams...

3. Our unique position as an independent regional power that has, both, good relations with Amrika and with Moslem nations. That way isolated nations like Iran need us in order to conduct necessary economic, social and educational intercourse with the West.

Those are some basic thoughts. The details could become interesting when we consider the Kurdish question, countries like Tajikistan, etc.
Tactical line onlee. But soon events will go beyond India's hands - at least they will not be manageable with the current stance on the ideological basis and given the lack of perception of long term counter-imperialistic Indian imperialism.
Muppalla
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by Muppalla »

I got in an email. Here are the list of sections in Islam (nothing specific to India viz. Ashrafs etc.)
1. Jarudiah:
Followers of Abu'l-Jarud. They believe Holy Prophet (pbuh) designated Al-Isa as the Imam by his characteristics but not by name.

2. Sulamania:
Followers of Sulaiman ibn-Jarir al-Zaidi. They believed Imamat was a matter of Jaririya conference and could be confirmed by two best Muslims.

3. Butriyah:
They did not dispute the Khilafat of Uthman (ra), neither they attack him nor Hurariyah praise him.

4. Yaqubiyya:
They accepted the Khilafat of Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra), but did not reject those who rejected these Khulifaa. They also believed that Muslim commiters of Major sins will be in hell forever.

5. Hanafiyah:
Followers of the Imammate of Muhammad ibn-al-Hanifah. They believe that Allah might have had a beginning.

6. Karibiyah:
They believed that Imam Muhammad ibn-al-Hanifah is not dead and is the Imam Ghaib (in disappearance) and the expected Mahdi.

7. Kamiliyah:
Followers of Abu-Kamil. They believed companions to be heretic because they forsook their allegiance to Ali (ra) and condemn Ali (ra) for ceasing to fight them. They believed in the returning of the dead before the Day of Resurrection and that Satan is right in preferring fire to clay.

8. Muhammadiyyah:
Followers of Muhammad ibn-Abdullah ibn-al-Hassan. They do not believe/Mughairiyah that Imam Muhammad ibn-Abdullah died and that he is the Imam Ghaib and awaited Mahdi.

9. Baqiriyah:
Followers of Muhammad ibn-Ali al-Baqir. They believe him to be the Imam Ghaib and expected Mahdi.

10. Nadisiyah:
They believe that those who consider themselves better than anyone else are Kafirs (disbelievers).

11. Sha'iyah:
They believe that the one who has recited La Ilaha Il-Allah (there is none worthy of worship except Allah), whatever she or he does, will never be punished.

12. Ammaliyah:
They believe that faith for one is what he/she sincerely practices.

13. Ismailiyah:
They believe in the continuity of Imammate among the descendants of Ismail ibn-Ja'far.

14. Musawiyah:
They believe Musa ibn-Ja'far to be the Imam Ghaib and expected Mahdi / Mamturah.

15. Mubarakiyah:
They believe in the continuity of Imammate among the descendants of Muhammad ibn-Ismail ibn-Ja'far.

16. Kathiyah:
They believe that expected Mehdi will be twelveth Imam among the /Ithn Áshariya descendants of the Áli ibn-abi-Talib. (The Twelvers).

17. Hashamiya:
They Predicate a body to Allah and also allege Prophet (pbuh) of disobedience/ Taraqibiyah to Allah

18. Zarariyah:
They believe that Allah did not live nor had any attributes till He created for Himself life and His attributes.

19. Younasiyah:
Followers of Younas ibn-Ábd-al-Rahman al-Kummi. They believe that Allah is borne by the bearers of His Throne, though He is stronger than they are.

20. Shaitaniyah/Shireekiyah:
They believed in the view that deeds of servants of Allah are substances; and a servant of Allah can really produce a substance.

21. Azraqaih:
Followers of Nafi ibn-al-Azraq. They do not believe in the good dreams and visions and claim that all forms of revelations have ended.

22. Najadat:
Followers of Najdah ibn-Ámir al-Hanafi. They abolished the punishment of drinking wine also they believed that sinners of this sect would not be treated in hellfire but some other place before allowed in Paradise.

23. Sufriyah:
Followers of Ziyad ibn-al-Asfar. They believed that sinners are in fact polytheists.

24. Ajaridah:
Followers of Abd-al-Karim ibn-Ajrad. They believed that a child should be called to Islam after it has attained maturity. Also they believed booty of war to be unlawful till the owner is killed.

25. Khazimiyah:

They believe Allah loves men of all faiths even if one has been a disbeliever most of his life.

26. Shuaibiyah/Hujjatiyah:
They believed that what Allah desires does happen no matter what and what does not happen it means Allah desires it not.

27. Khalafiyah:
Followers of Khalaf. They do not believe in fighting except under the leadership of an Imam.

28. Ma'lumiyah/Majhuliah:
They believed that whoever did not recognise Allah by His names was ignorant of Him and anyone ignorant of Him was a disbeliever.

29. Saltiyah:
Followers of Salt ibn-Usman. They believed in the conversion of adults only and if father has converted to Islam children were considered disbelievers till they reach maturity.

30. Hamziyah:
Followers of Hamza ibn-Akrak. They believe that children of polytheists are condemned to hell.

31. Tha'libiyah:
Followers of Tha'labah ibn-Mashkan. They believe that parents remain guardians over their children of any age until children make it clear to parents that they are turning away from truth.

32. Ma'badiyah:
They did not believe in taking or giving alms from or to slaves.

33. Akhnasiyah:
They do not believe in waging a war except in defence or when the opponent is known personally.

34. Shaibaniyah/Mashbiyah:
Followers of Shaiban ibn-Salamah al-Khariji. They believe that Allah resembles His creatures.

35. Rashidiyah:
They believe that land watered by springs, canals or flowing rivers should pay half the Zakat (tithe), while land watered by rain only should pay he full Zakat.

36. Mukarramiyah/tehmiyah:
Followers of abu-Mukarram. They believe that ignorance constitutes as disbelief. Also that Allah enmity or friendship depends upon the state of a persons' belief at his death.

37. Abadiyah/Afáliyah:
They consider Abdullah ibn-Ibad as their Imam. They believe in doing good deeds without the intention of pleasing Allah.

38. Hafsiyah:
Consider Hafs ibn-abi-l-mikdam as their Imam. They believe that only knowing Allah frees one from polytheism.

39. Harithiya:
Followers of Harith ibn-Mazid al-Ibadi. They believe that the ability precedes the deeds.

40. Ashab Ta'áh:
They believe that Allah can send a prophet without giving him any sign to prove his prophecy.

41. Shabibiyah/Salihiyah:
Followers of Shabib ibn-Yazid al-Shaibani. They believe in the Imamate of a woman named Ghazalah.

42. Wasiliyah:
Followers of Wasil ibn-'Ata al-Ghazza. They believe that does who commit major sins will be punished in hell but still remain believers.

43. Ámriyah:
Followers of Amir ibn-Ubaid ibn-Bab. They reject the legal testimony of people from supporters of either side of the battle of Camel.

44. Hudhailiyah/Faniya:
Followers of abu-al-Hudhail Muhammad ibn-al-Hudhail. They believe that both Hell and Paradise will perish and that preordination of Allah can cease, at which time Allah will no longer be omnipotent.

45. Nazzamiyah:
Followers of abu-Ishaq Ibrahim ibn-Saiyar. They do not believe in the miraculous nature of the Holy Quran nor do they believe in the miracles of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) like splitting the moon.

46. Mu'ammariyah:
They believe that Allah neither creates life nor death but it is an act of the nature of living body.

47. Bashriyah:
Followers of Bashr ibn-al-Mu'tamir. They believe that Allah may forgive a man his sins and may change His mind about this forgiveness and punish him if he is disobedient again.

48. Hishamiyah:
Followers of Hisham ibn-ämr al-Futi. They believe that if a Muslim community come to consensus it needs an Imam and if it rebels and kills its Imam, no one should be chosen an Imam during a rebellion.

49. Murdariyah:
Followers of Isa ibn-Sabih. They believe that staying in close communication with the Sultan (ruler) makes one unbeliever.

50. Ja'friyah:
Followers of Ja'far ibn-Harb and Ja'far ibn-Mubashshir. They believe that drinking raw wine is not punishable and that punishment of hell could be inferred by a mental process.

51. Iskafiyah:
Followers of Muhammad ibn-Abdallah al-Iskafi. They believe that Allah has power to oppress children and madman but not those who have their full senses.

52. Thamamiyah:
Followers of Thamamah ibn-Ashras al-Numairi. They believe that he whom Allah does not compel to know Him, is not compelled to know and is classed with animals who are not responsible.

53. Jahiziayh:
Followers of 'Ámr ibn-Bahr al-Jahiz. They believe that Allah is able to create a thing but unable to annihilate it.

54. Shahhamiyah/Sifatiyah:
Followers of abu-Yaqub al-Shahham. They believe that everything determined is determined by two determiners, one the creator and the other acquirer.

55. Khaiyatiyah/Makhluqiyah:
Followers of abu-al-Husain al-Khaiyat. They believe that everything non-existent is a body before it appears, like man before it is born is a body in non-existence. Also that every attribute becomes existent when it makes its appearance.

56. Ka'biyah:
Followers of abu-qasim Abdullah ibn-Ahmed ibn-Mahmud al-Banahi known as al-Ka'bi. They believe that Allah does not see Himself nor anyone else except in the sense that He knows himself and others.

57. Jubbaiyah:
Followers of abu-'Ali al-Jubbai. They believe that Allah obeys His servants when he fulfils their wish.

58. Bahshamiyah:
Followers of abu-Hashim. They believe that one, who desires to do a bad deed, though may not do it, commit infidelity and deserve punishment.

59. Ibriyah:
They believe that Holy Prophet (pbuh) was a wise man but not a prophet.

60. Zanadiqiyah:
They believe that the incident Miraj was a vision of the Holy prophet (pbuh) and that we can see Allah in this world.

61. Qabariyya:
They do not believe in the punishment of grave.

62. Hujjatiya:
They do not believe in the punishment for deeds on the grounds.

63. Fikriyya:
They believe that doing Dhikr and Fikr (Remembering and thinking about Allah) is better than worship.

64. 'Aliviyah/Ajariyah:
They believe that Hazrat Ali shared Prophethood with Mohammad (pbuh)

65. Tanasikhiya:
They believe in the re-incarnation of soul.

66. Rajiýah:
They believe that Hazrat Ali ibn-abi-Talib will return to this world.

67. Ahadiyah:
They believe in the Fardh (obligations) in faith but deny the Sunnah.

68. Radeediyah:
They believe that this world will live forever.

69. Satbiriyah:
They do not believe in the acceptance of repentance.

70. Lafziyah:
They believe that Quran is not the word of God but only its meaning and essence is the word of God. Words of Quran are just the words of the narrator.

71. Ashariyah:
They believe that Qiyas (taking a guess) is wrong and amounts to disbelief.

72. Bada'iyah:
They believe that obedience to Ameer is obligatory no matter what he commands.

*Islamic Encyclopaedia published by Munshi Mehboob 'Alim' (editor Newspaper Paisa, Lahore, Pakistan). Page 570-572.
*Al-Farq Bain Al Firaq, by Abu Mansur 'abd-al-Kahir ibn-Tahir al-Baghdadi, Translated into English by Kate Chambers Seelye, (AMS Press, NewYork 1996)
*Kitab Lajawaab Masmay ba-Mazhab al-Islam by Hakeem Maulvi Muhammad Najam al-Ghani Rampuri, 1st edition, (Munshi Nau Lakshoor Lakhnau 1924).
Virupaksha
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by Virupaksha »

Carl ji,

I will give some disadvantages we have.
Our land access on both sides (east (except siliguri corridor) and west) is cut off and are sanctuaries and breeding grounds for islamists. We are not actively destroying the islamists within us, but are providing sanctuaries and connections. Basically the islamists are the ones who have surrounded us, landwise. The IPI pipeline and the problems we are having with road access to northeast India through BD are prime examples.

Our only access is through the sea.

For creating a "cultural highway hub", a highway void of islamist control will be needed. Otherwise the raids with "acceptable" losses of 20-30% will continue (as in today's Nato supply chain through Pakistan), which actually go directly towards enriching the islamists. In the long run, that acceptable losses become the seed money for the control over the highway and we will be worser position than at the start, because we have just given the "highway" built with our efforts and money for the islamists to exploit.
Agnimitra
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by Agnimitra »

Virupaksha ji, the "info-cultural highway" concept is not subject to sea and land access. Its an abstract plan geared towards becoming:
1. A hub for certain educational and information tech services,
2. A haven for certain cultural forms,
3. And a router for certain economic and social transactions that need a workaround due to political issues between governments and issues of "loss of face".

ramana ji, I acknowledge the Wahhabi virus and its usefulness to the West in erecting barriers. However, this piques Shi'a-Sunni issues even more so than it does Islamist-Indic issues, since we are outsiders to them anyway. And since our gaming of the situation is relative to their internal dynamics, the roles for us remain open, and maybe even more so.

brihaspati ji, I acknowledge your points, but I am not suggesting this triangle as the crux around which we model strategies. It is only one tactical aspect in making room for ourselves as we try to increase our footprint on their turf. Once we have some locus standii, we can inject further information and ideas as you were suggesting in another thread - ideas that will minister to delicate pressure points such as aspects of their religious ideology, women's issues, etc. For that to happen we need an interface. This interface needs to be fashioned, and this info-cultural concept would be one of many attempts in that direction.
ramana
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by ramana »

Overviewing Shi'a-Sunni Conflicts

by Aymenn Jawad Al-Tamimi
Israel National News
December 2, 2011

http://www.meforum.org/3117/shia-sunni-conflicts
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As we approach the end of the first year of what has been called the "Arab Spring," it is worth examining the nature of Shi'a (Shiite) -Sunni relations in the Middle East. Indeed, commentators such as Patrick Cockburn have been warning that "since the start of the Arab uprisings this year, Shi'a-Sunni hostility has deepened again wherever the two communities seek to live side by side."

To discuss this issue, a country-by-country survey is useful wherever there are significant Shi'a-Sunni divides in the population.

Iraq: As U.S. troops look set to complete their withdrawal from the country before the end of this month, perhaps leaving only a few hundred to provide further training for the Iraqi security forces, some analysts have raised concern over tensions spilling into another full-blown sectarian civil war. Amongst other things, they draw attention to the recent arrests - on the basis of vague allegations of promoting Baathism - of hundreds of Sunnis in two predominantly Sunni provinces seeking autonomy (Salahaddin and Anbar), the possibility that a civil war in Syria will embolden Iraq's Sunni Arabs, the continued activity of militant groups like al-Qa'eda, and an apparent proposal among Shi'a and Kurdish politicians to reduce the size of Sunni Arab provinces.

However, such anxieties fail to take into account the primary reason for the decline in violence across the country: namely, that the Sunni Arab community has generally come to realize that it lost the civil war to the Shi'a militias.

Most Sunni insurgents initially thought they could defeat the Shi'a by supposed numerical superiority, yet by the end of 2006 Sunnis had been ethnically cleansed from most mixed neighborhoods in Baghdad.

Observe the demographic shift by examining a map of the capital from 2003 and compare with one from early 2007, just at the time of the start of the surge.

Survival for most Sunni Arabs in Iraq therefore depends on adapting to the fact that the Shi'a are leading the political process in the country.

The problem of militant groups is thus more accurately described as terrorist threats from organizations that also function as criminal gangs also engaging in robberies and extortion, rather than a threat of renewed sectarian civil war.

Yemen: In the wake of President Ali Abdullah Saleh's transfer of powers on paper, it is notable that an all-out conflict is erupting between the Zaydi Shi'a Houthi rebels, who are primarily based in the north and are aiming to expand their control to gain access to the Red Sea coast, and Salafist Sunni militants. Dozens of fighters have been killed on both sides over the past couple of weeks, with Houthi rebels now reportedly subjecting parts of the Dammaj district of Saada province to artillery shelling.

Meanwhile, as speculation arises over what comes next after Saleh, rebel general Ali Mohsen al-Ahmar, commander of the first Armored Division of the Yemeni army, is arguably the most powerful figure in the country, and he is known for his links to Sunni Islamist militants and his anti-Shi'a sentiments.

The Sunni Islamists are also at odds with the increasingly assertive southern separatists, who are generally secular owing to Marxist influences on their ideology.

It has often been supposed that the Houthi rebels have been receiving Iranian support, but there has been no reliable evidence for this assertion so far. Indeed, Iranian backing for Shi'a militants as proxies has occurred on account of geographical proximity (as was the case for Iran's neighbor Iraq, via Maysan province in the south-east, which has historically been a route for arms smuggling) or through an ally (i.e. Syria as an intermediary for Iranian support for Hizbullah in Lebanon).

Neither of these factors applies to the Houthis, but should these Zaydi Shi'a rebels gain access to the Red Sea, Iran may well begin to provide them with financial aid and weapons in the face of their conflict with the Salafists.

In turn, Saudi Arabia could involve itself and start backing the Sunni militants to contain the Houthis, fearing destabilization along its southern border.

Syria: While Assad clings to power, it is increasingly clear that the country is being divided along sectarian lines, with minority Alawites (who, incidentally, are not strictly Shi'a but have merely defined themselves as such to win solidarity from fellow Shi'a in the region) on the side of the regime - and in control of the elite security forces - versus the Sunni Arab majority.

Numerous reports, for example, have emerged on sectarian killings in the city of Homs, divided sharply between Alawite and Sunni Arab neighborhoods. To be sure, there is still a degree of crossover as many middle-class, urban Sunnis have refrained from joining the protests against Assad, but that could well change in the near future as the state of Syria's economy hangs in balance.

Two primary mitigating factors against economic sanctions from the outside world are Iraq's close trade ties with Syria, and Iran's reported purchasing of Syrian crude oil (although the Iranians deny it).

The Syrian National Council (SNC), with strong Turkish support, has come to be dominated by Sunni Islamists, and members of the Free Syrian Army have begun to receive training from prominent Islamists like Belhaj, commander of the Tripoli Military Council in Libya.

In the meantime, as the Wall Street Journal reports, "Christians already speak of arming themselves. Ethnic Druze say they have made underground bunkers in their rugged southwest mountains." Both of these minorities are evidently not siding with the opposition; for instance, Christian leaders in Syria like Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch Gregory III Laham have condemned the Arab League's suspension of Syria from the organization and imposition of sanctions on Assad's regime.

On the other hand, the Kurds remain divided, with many still suspicious of the Sunni Arabs in the SNC and their ties to Turkey. Assad has attempted to exploit this by trying to reach out to the Kurds in the country's northeast.

An end to the conflict is unlikely in the near future, but a full-blown sectarian civil war could be avoided if an Alawite general overthrows Assad by means of a military coup, although there is no sign yet of such a development's taking place.

Should sectarian civil war break out, many Alawite activists are hoping that their community can at least salvage an autonomous province in the northwest along the lines of the "Alawite State" that existed under the French mandate of Syria after the First World War. However, it remains questionable whether the Sunni Arabs would generally tolerate such an arrangement, for a de facto partition of Syria in such a way would cut off their access to the Mediterranean Sea via the country's principal port city of Latakia, and therefore hamper the chances of their having a viable economic future.

Hence, in the event of a sectarian civil war, expect significant bloodshed, not exactly like Iraq in 2006 where the fighting raged for control of one city but undoubtedly with similar scale of loss of civilian life.

Lebanon: It is clear that the unrest in Syria is having repercussions in Lebanon. As the New York Times notes, "for the Future Movement, which has been dealt major blows by March 14's (anti-Syrian coalition) loss of control of the government and the physical absence from Lebanon of its leader, former Prime Minister Saad Hariri, the Syrian uprising has provided an opportunity to rejuvenate its support base, which is largely Sunni."

This attempt at rejuvenation included, for example, a rally recently organized by Saad Hariri's party in the northern city of Tripoli and involving thousands of people, with some waving the flag of the Syrian opposition. The primary purpose of the protest was to commemorate Lebanese politicians murdered by pro-Syrian agents in recent years.

Yet the picture in Lebanon is not quite as simple as one of just Sunnis against Shi'a. For the March 8 alliance (the pro-Syrian coalition, including Hizbullah and Michel Aoun's Free Patriotic Movement, which is primarily Maronite) - embodying 'resistance' ideology also espoused by Assad - is apparently beginning to crack.

Najib Mikati, the Lebanese Prime Minister installed by the March 8 alliance at the start of this year, has threatened to resign if the present government does not provide funding for the UN-backed Special Tribunal on Lebanon, which has been investigating the assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri and has thus far indicted four senior members of Hizbullah. Unsurprisingly, Hizbullah has come out in opposition to Mikati's sentiments, but as Michael Totten points out, Mikati has never liked Hizbullah anyway, being quoted in a Wikileaks cable as describing Hizbullah as "cancerous."

All that said, a civil war in Syria might lead to sporadic outbreaks of sectarian violence in Lebanon, while an end to the Assad regime together with the ascendancy of a Sunni-dominated regime will undoubtedly end the sense of intimidation many Lebanese Sunnis feel at the hands of an armed Hizbullah. The latter, deprived of its primary support in the event of Assad's downfall, may feel a need to reach a compromise with the Sunni community as a whole if it wishes to avert a second Lebanese civil war.

Recall that the main consequence of the first civil war in Lebanon, though multi-faceted, was the reduction of Christian influence in the country, rather than a shift in the balance of power between the Shi'a and Sunnis.

Bahrain: I have previously noted that one of the causes of increasing sectarian tensions between the Shi'a majority primarily comprising the Bahraini protestors and the Sunni minority regime has been the latter's failure - reinforced by the Gulf Cooperation Council's intervention - to distinguish between pro-Iranian Islamists like Hassan Mushaima of al-Haq and more mainstream factions such as al-Wefaq.

There is no good evidence for Iranian interference in the protests thus far, despite Iranian claims to Bahrain as its fourteenth province. In any case, in the wake of the publication of a report by the Bahrain Independent Commission of Inquiry, both sides are only becoming more and more impervious to compromise and therefore squandering opportunities to restore stability.

Even as they face criticism from the commission's report, the security forces continue to engage in violent crackdown against Bahraini protestors, while al-Wefaq has refused to participate in the National Committee, recently set up to discuss the commission's suggestions and reports its findings to the monarch by February. As Hussein Ibish notes:

"This mirrors its stance of boycotting parliamentary balloting in September and refusing to participate in the legislature under the current circumstances. One can readily understand the opposition's skepticism about the government's intentions and this entire process. However, the commission report was hardly the whitewash that many opposition figures had predicted. To the contrary, it was surprisingly blunt about the excessive use of force and other abuses on the part of security services, even though it did not go as far as many would have wanted with regard to the systematic nature of abuses."

Saudi Arabia: It has recently been reported that protests have arisen in the predominantly Shi'a areas of the eastern half of the country, where the population, suffering considerable discrimination, has not received a fair share of the nation's oil wealth even though the eastern provinces contain the biggest oil fields. As a result, many protestors in towns like Qatif have been chanting, "Death to [the house of] al-Saud!" (in reference to the dictatorial, ruling royal family).

The Saudi security forces have responded by firing on demonstrators, killing several unarmed people. Saudi Arabia has unsurprisingly accused the protests of being part of an Iranian plot, while al-Jazeera's Arabic channel, in keeping with its anti-Shi'a bias, accused the protestors of aggression and portrayed the casualties as merely the result of crossfire. Al-Arabiya parroted the official Saudi line. In any event, there is no evidence that these protests are being driven by Iran.

In fact, if polling data by Pechter Middle East Polls are a reliable indication of public opinion in Saudi Arabia, it is actually the primarily Shi'a residents in the eastern area of al-Ahsa who most fear Tehran's ambitions in the region, as opposed to their Sunni neighbors in the western half of the country, and accordingly they are more inclined to support an American pre-emptive strike on Iran's nuclear facilities.

Summing Up: In sum, sectarianism has become more entrenched in the Middle East since the "Arab Spring" first began. Syria and Yemen are the most likely candidates for full-blown Shi'a-Sunni civil wars of some sort, yet it need not necessarily be thought that such conflicts, if they arise, will resonate across the region so as to trigger a regional Shi'a-Sunni civil war. Iraq is almost certainly going to remain immune from such a danger, given the country's experiences over the past years.

Nor should it be presumed that every area with Sunni-Shi'a tensions entails a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran respectively, though such a scenario could well emerge in Yemen in the near future.

Aymenn Jawad Al-Tamimi is a student at Brasenose College, Oxford University, and an intern at the Middle East Forum.
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by Agnimitra »

^^^ the above article makes no mention of Pakistan, only WANA.

One of the trends in TSP is the ethnic cleansing of Shi'as from Pak-occupied Baluchistan.
Sept 21, 2011:
Massacre in Mastung - The quiet killing of Shi'as continues in Pakistan
Twenty-six Shi'a Muslim pilgrims,en route to Iran, died at the hands of the militant group Lashkar-e-Jhangvi(LeJ) in Baluchistan's Mastung area Tuesday evening. According to news reports and eyewitness accounts, attackers armed with Kalashnikovs and rocket launchers stopped the busand forced passengers to get off. While women and children were reportedlyspared, they witnessed the execution. A car arriving to rescue the pilgrims was also fired on, and three people died in the second attack.

According to the bus driver "The attackers askedpassengers to step out of the bus and shot them after identifying them as Shi'as"

The attack was not an isolated incident, but was instead part of a systematic campaign of violence in the province directed towards the Shi'a. In July, 18 people werekilled within 16 hours in Quetta in targeted attacks by the LeJ, including sevenpilgrims waiting for transportation to Iran. On the Eid-ul-Fitr holiday, a suicide bomber reportedly intended to attack the congregation of 25,000 people prayingat a mosque in the Shi'a-populated area of Marriabad in Quetta. Hisexplosives-laden car still killed 12 Shi'aand injured 32.

The campaign of anti-Shi'a violence has largely been directed towards the predominantly Shi'a Hazara community in Baluchistan. According to a recent report in Newsline, "at least 347 Hazaras have been killed in [targeted] killings andsuicide and other attacks since 1999. Of the 328 Hazaras killed up untilDecember 31 last year, as many as 105 had been killed in 2010 alone."And government inaction is only helping the problem spread. According toAmnesty International, "Successive [Pakistani] governments have failed toaddress the increasingly explicit threats faced by Shi'a Muslims from groupslike Lashkar-e Jhangvi, operating openly in the Punjab and Karachi andapparently striking their victims at will in Balochistan and other parts of thecountry.

The LeJ, the militant wing of the virulentlyanti-Shi'a Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan (SSP), has claimed responsibility forseveral of the attacks, and has vowed to kill more Shi'a. The Deobandi group'sstronghold is in southern Punjab, and since its inception in 1985, it has spread its campaign of anti-Shi'a incitement and violencethroughout Pakistan.

The group is officially banned inPakistan, but the ban has been far from effective. The state supported thecreation of the SSP, as General Zia-ul-Haq's regime propped up Deobandi movements to counter its perceived rival Iran.

Zia's death in 1988 did not endstate patronage of such groups. Hundreds of Shi'a have been killed since then,and the state continues to support groups such as the LeJ, and has called onits leaders for assistance in times of crisis. For instance, LeJ leader MalikIshaq was reportedly flown out of jail by the Pakistan Army to talk to the militants that had stormed the army headquarters in Rawalpindi in 2009. Ishaq wasreleased this year after serving 14 years in jail. He was accused of killing 70 people and faced charges in 44 cases.

It was revealed after his releasethat his family was given a stipend by the Punjab government while he was in jail, and that he had been provided with police guards -- while the witnesses who testified against him lived in fear of possible repercussions. Ishaq's freedom -- after being acquitted in 34 cases and being bailedout on 10 -- was met with a display of adoration by his supporters, whoshowered rose petals on him.

Since then, he has embarkedon a public speaking tour, addressing crowds in Sindhand Punjab. His message has been consistent: he believes he was on the rightpath, and vows to work to further the SSP's mission. And despite knowing thatthe intelligence services and government are keeping an eye on him, the crowdsstill show up to hear Ishaq speak, helping validate the belief held by Ishaqand his followers that the SSP's mission is right.

In a letter to The Friday Times journal, the Pakistan Ulema Council has urged "different segments of societyto stop making assumptions about Ishaq's release and help him become a usefulcitizen" while heralding his services to the army in the 2009 headquarterssiege. But for anyone who has seen Ishaq's speeches, readily available onseveral social media platforms, it is hard to not foresee a bloody future aheadfor the Shi'a community in Pakistan. The speeches conclude with the crowdschanting anti-Shi'a slogans, while in Balochistan, a bloodied communitycontinues to mourn its dead.
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by Virupaksha »

Carl wrote:Virupaksha ji, the "info-cultural highway" concept is not subject to sea and land access. Its an abstract plan geared towards becoming:
1. A hub for certain educational and information tech services,
2. A haven for certain cultural forms,
3. And a router for certain economic and social transactions that need a workaround due to political issues between governments and issues of "loss of face".
Carl ji,

Note that your "info-cultural highway" is also subject to the same rules in my previous post.

The first thing they will ask is for a "fair" representation, i.e. always have a sprinkling of islamists in the highway to be "secular" - basically have a keyhold and then gradually a veto.

Definition of the word "certain ..." in your points has to be explicit and clear cut. Unfortunately for that the coercive power of the rashtra as devguru aptly puts it will be needed.
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by shiv »

arun wrote:X Posted from the Pakistani Role in Global terrorism thread.

Yet another Islamic Terrorist incident linked to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Suicide bombings targeting shrines of the Mohammadden Shia / Shiite sect on the Muslim holiday of Muharram in Kabul and Mazar-i-Sharif in Afghanistan which killed some 59 is claimed by a Sunni Mohammadden Islamic Terrorist organisation based in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Pakistani militants claim responsibility for pilgrim slaughter
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by ramana »

Thats Lashkar-e-Jahngvi formerly known as Sipahi Saheba. Their area of ops was TSP now they are branching out into Afghanistan.
This morning Sunni extremist group Lashkar e-Jhangvi al-Alami said it launched the attacks; the group's first in Afghanistan.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16045206
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by RajeshA »

ramana wrote:Thats Lashkar-e-Jahngvi formerly known as Sipahi Saheba. Their area of ops was TSP now they are branching out into Afghanistan.
This morning Sunni extremist group Lashkar e-Jhangvi al-Alami said it launched the attacks; the group's first in Afghanistan.
Just shows that the Iranians are all napoonsak/impotent in saving the lives of Shi'a around the world. If they can't do it in Afghanistan, one can forget that they can save Shi'a lives in Pakistan, and the Iranian Supreme Geedarh Ali Khamenei wants to incite Indian Shi'a! Ach'thoo!
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by ramana »

X-post
RamaY wrote:Image

Kabul suicide attack on Shias. Look at the small children :cry:
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by brihaspati »

Carl wrote:
^^^ the above article makes no mention of Pakistan, only WANA.

One of the trends in TSP is the ethnic cleansing of Shi'as from Pak-occupied Baluchistan.
Sept 21, 2011:
Actually there are several aspects to this:

(1) Pakis try to periodically reassure one of their bread-baskets - the Saudis - that they are ready to do the mad-dog bit about Shia [assuming that this implies a coded message of Shia==Iran].

(2) A hope that needling like this will infuriate the Iranian bear roaming and roaring around its watering hole Caspian, but never really leaving base and coming out to play bear-baiting. Such a hope can be entertained by the Anglo-Saxon, as well as the Saudis.

(3) its a warning to Iran for the covert infiltration of Talebs that the Iranians started a while ago .

But whoever hatches the plan, the basic idea of perpetrating ethnic cleansing not just for cleansing - but with the particular and meticulous attention given to the sadism aspect [think of the Iraqi niceties of tying heavy weights to childrens necks an drowning them - even if this was something invented by the authorities - the very fact that such a thing could be imagines - shows something about the underlying societal belief system].

This particular added aspect of "sadism" in ethnic cleansing - is a peculiarly Islamic one. Its not simply about killing or eliminating the possibility of militant retaliation. It is about ensuring a psychological divide that will go deep into the the surviving population which manages to remain non-Muslim. Its a kind of coldly calculated psychological hedge that - the Muslim- will not be able to coexist in a mutually acceptable relationship. The hatred that arises out of witnessing or remembering the atrocities specifically undertaken by Muslim powers/armies/invaders is basically incurable. The Muslim leadership does this deliberately to preserve the distinction of the Islamic, and as an insurance that in the future -

(a) the non muslim will keep on hating the Muslims and will never trust the Muslim
(b) this in turn can be used to pinch muslim psyche and periodically mobilize the muslim for ghazwas to loot non-Muslim wealth, land and women.
(c) that bridges cannot be built between the two sides, and that future Muslims will not let down their basic predatory instincts/culture or get fused with the non-Muslim without "converting" the non-Muslim.

One immediate use of my above statements is perhaps a Gandhian pseudo-twist - that therefore if the above is true - the way out and the way to thwart Islamic design is to forget all atrocities, "trust" Islamics implicitly.

The criminality of such a twisting lies in the deliberate ignoring of the win-win situation for the islamic, if they adopt the sadism angle. Since they can incorporate every such atrocity [children of pagans are not exempt from culling - as per "true" Hadiths and as handed down supposedly from the founder himself] as either precedence/Sunna or demanded of/instructed by their supreme divine - they can preserve this sadism aspect as a necessary continuity of their faith. Thus they win both ways :

(1) If non-Muslims dont remember and trust - they can and will [and have repeatedly done so in the past] use this unpreparedness for shock-value and carry out their ghazwa successfully.

(2) If non-Muslims do remember and distrust - they can use that to remind the muslim man that it is both necessary and a duty to carry out ghazwa successfully.

What the Serbs did was wrongly set foot into the trap laid out for them - by the basically regional muslim mafia+AQ+Saudi-sunni-funding network - to provoke them. The local society that survives Muslim onslaught as non-Muslims will never forget what happened to their ancestors - and all the Muslims need to do is skillfully raise those past images.

So this psychological game pushed by Islamist theologians and organizers - needs to be carefully understood and played. No need to be be provoked, but no need to let down the guard either. Pretending trust and forgetfulness can only be adopted while preparing secretly to use any misadventure by the Muslim side start the rollback process. Ultimately, as long as the last bit of text and the last theologian survives - civilization will not be free of the danger. Its not about the general follower who get excited at the prospect of the loot or women - but the theologians and their institutions.
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by ramana »

Bji, Have you read accounts of Old Testament in detail? its similar ideas after Exodus.
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by brihaspati »

ramana ji,
yes. Moses shone the light in this regard as per textual claims. [Or later leaders put this in to justify their own activities from precedence]. But then in my Socratic mode - I even doubt his "Jewish" identity. He could simply be carrying on an Egyptian habit [as depicted in propaganda frescos of the Pharaohs]. OT perhaps.
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by member_20317 »

brihaspati wrote: One immediate use of my above statements is perhaps a Gandhian pseudo-twist - that therefore if the above is true - the way out and the way to thwart Islamic design is to forget all atrocities, "trust" Islamics implicitly.

The criminality of such a twisting lies in the deliberate ignoring of the win-win situation for the islamic, if they adopt the sadism angle. ... they can preserve this sadism aspect as a necessary continuity of their faith. Thus they win both ways :

(1) If non-Muslims dont remember and trust - they can and will [and have repeatedly done so in the past] use this unpreparedness for shock-value and carry out their ghazwa successfully.

(2) If non-Muslims do remember and distrust - they can use that to remind the muslim man that it is both necessary and a duty to carry out ghazwa successfully.

And that is how the P-secs damage the fabric of the world.

But if what was merely an object for the subject of somebody else, decides to become a subject of his own object, then the erstwhile subject either has to rise to the level or just loose his way about.
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by Airavat »

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http://tribune.com.pk/story/303597/shia-sunni-reconciliation/
Of particular note was the ritualistic invective (tabarra) that evolved during this period, which was hurled on those companions of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who Shias consider to be ‘enemies’ of inherited succession, such as Hazrat Umar (RA) and Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA). Much of the sectarian violence between Shias and Sunnis in Pakistan can be traced back to the issue of whether or not these companions are to be respected or abused. It is high time that both Shias and Sunnis agree on mutual respect. Even if there is disagreement over history, we can move beyond such provocative displays of disfavour for each other.
It's as easy as that. Just forget history and move on........but how can people whose entire belief system, legal system, governance, and even financial system, are rooted in the past ever move on?
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by ramana »

Those companions staged a coup in modern language.

Ali was the expected successor immediately after Muhammed's death as he was the first Muslim and the son-in-law of the Prophet and moreover was his cousin and understood the teachings the best. Abu Bakr managed a shura and got himself nominated. In modern words a coup. Same thing with Umar. Finally after all of them were exhausted Ali was nominated but Umar's nephew Muwaiyya did not acknowledge him.

Read "After the Prophet" among others.
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by ramana »

They want to delink Islam from India

it should read they want to delink India from Islam.
'They want to delink Islam from India'

Rakhi Chakrabarty Dec 4, 2011,

Arshad Alam, who teaches at Delhi's Jamia Millia Islamia, in his recent book 'Inside A Madrasa: Knowledge, Power and Islamic Identity in India' offers insight into the diversity of Indian Islam and attempts to dispel myths about madrasas. He talks to Sunday Times about the ongoing Wahabi vs Sufi debate

Wahabism is used pejoratively in India and refers to Islamic revival movements such as the Deoband. It's better to understand the current polemic as Barelwi vs Deobandi conflict. It is a contest of power within Indian Islam.

What is the background of this debate?

In India, the British first used the term Wahabi for Muslims who declared jihad against them. The Deobandis were alleged to be Wahabis because they were against syncretic practices such as visiting the shrine. Defending some of these practices was Ahmad Riza Khan, who justified the importance of shrines and pirs. The Barelwi identity crystallized around the writings of Khan.

Sunni Sufis claim Deobandis are trying to import petrodollar-Islam ...

The promotion 'petrodollar' Islam is part of the foreign policy of Saudi Arabia. Their funds have gone into building mosques and promoting Islamic education in many countries. Muslim groups have tried to get a slice of this pie by positioning themselves close to Wahabism, which which alienates them from their specific cultural location.

We can see attempts to "purge" Islam of Indian influences...

Islamic reform is primarily about 'purging' indigenous influences, taking Muslims away from the Indian cultural landscape towards an Arabian cultural model . De-coupling Islam with its Indian environs has consequences for cultural pluralism . The challenge is daunting as the project of Islamic reform is common to both Deobandis and Barelwis.

My comments. I have been reading about how pitbulls behave. In effect they are bred for fighting. The pitbull has bred into it the ability to fight without giving quarter and is trained to kill only. It has been known to rip the underbelly of a surrendering dog. Its a killing machine.

Wahabi teaching converts Islamist jihadis into pitbulls or killing machines.

The UK and US, without knowing or knowingly what they are dealing with, have unleashed this meme virus in Sufi Islam and the world is paying for this.
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by RajeshA »

A message I left at Pakistani Tea House (PTH):

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http://pakteahouse.net/2011/12/15/are-ahmadis-non-muslims/comment-page-3/#comment-76460
Published on Dec 15th, 2011
By Yasser Latif Hamdani
Are Ahmadis Non-Muslims?: PTH

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http://pakteahouse.net/2011/12/15/are-ahmadis-non-muslims/
Yasser Latif Hamdani wrote:Therefore- fully aware of the stigma attached to this statement- I concur with Quaid-e-Azam Mahomed Ali Jinnah, thefounding father of Pakistan that Ahmadis are Muslims, if they say they are Muslims and no one, not even the sovereign legislature, has the right to say otherwise.
YLH,

I commend you on the last statement you make in the article.

However you should be aware of the Islamist memes that Muslim societies carry! Actually nothing in Islam is really negotiable, but still Islamists are willing to negotiate certain things on a temporary basis if it helps them in the long term, before the other party has to “submit” to the will of Allah ultimately – things like Sufism.

However things like the “Finality of Prophethood of Mohammed” is central to the power of Islam. Otherwise any prophet could prop up anytime and make changes to the legacy of Mohammed.

On the other hand, it is a sad and devious thought, that Allah does not need to speak to humanity ever again! Has Allah had his last word with humanity? Has Allah forsaken humanity then? Or has Allah only forsaken those, who believe in the ‘finality of the Prophethood of Mohammed’, because those who believe in the ‘finality of Prophethood of Mohammed’ have themselves closed the doors to Allah and said they would not accept a new messenger or prophet from Him! These have taken away Allah’s right to send another prophet!

Perhaps the Ahmadiyyas are the only true Muslims left, who have not shut the door on Allah!

Another subsequent comment of mine

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http://pakteahouse.net/2011/12/15/are-ahmadis-non-muslims/comment-page-3/#comment-76472
rex minor wrote:The finality of prophethood is a historical fact!
Well before hot-air balloons airplanes were invented, it was also a historical fact that man could not fly. Should the inventors then have had to be banned from making such inventions? Just because one has been doing something one way, does not mean one cannot adopt new methods and new paradigms.
rex minor wrote:Also Mohammad (pbuh) was the only prophet who prior to his demise addressed his God in an open public sermon saying that he has completed his task in this world.
Yes Mohammed had completed his God's task as had been given to him. That is not the same that God cannot give another Prophet a different task some time later. Mohammed's work was finished but can one say God's work too was finished?!
RajeshA
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by RajeshA »

A post of mine on Pak Tea House

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http://pakteahouse.net/2011/12/15/are-ahmadis-non-muslims/comment-page-3/#comment-76533
rex minor,

you sidestepped my query. Of course to any question one can respond with “Such are the ways of Allah! Who are we to judge them!” and other similar mumbo-jumbo!

My query was very straight-forward!

Why have the Muslims taken away Allah’s right to speak to them in the future?

The question is posed to everybody here!
arun
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by arun »

X Posted from the Islamism thread.

“Shia Muslims don't face persecution in mainly Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, and secular nations. However, throughout the Sunni Muslim world the Shia community faces daily discrimination and deadly attacks often erupt in Bahrain, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, and other nations. ……………………….”

Read it all:

The Ongoing Oppression of Shiites in Sunni Muslim Dominated Nations
arun
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by arun »

From the Economist, the persecution around the world of Mohammaddens of the Shia sect by their Sunni Co-religionists:

Shia Islam : A growing sense of bloody isolation
Aditya_V
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by Aditya_V »

RajeshA wrote:A post of mine on Pak Tea House

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http://pakteahouse.net/2011/12/15/are-ahmadis-non-muslims/comment-page-3/#comment-76533
rex minor,

you sidestepped my query. Of course to any question one can respond with “Such are the ways of Allah! Who are we to judge them!” and other similar mumbo-jumbo!

My query was very straight-forward!

Why have the Muslims taken away Allah’s right to speak to them in the future?

The question is posed to everybody here!
I don't think muslims have, the Quran says Mohammed is the last prophet and so it is.
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by RajeshA »

Aditya_V wrote:I don't think muslims have, the Quran says Mohammed is the last prophet and so it is.
Ahmediyyas interpret it somewhat differently. They say that Muhammad is the final Law-Giving Prophet, but there can be others who either help the Muslims focus on certain aspects of the Law, or help Muslims again find their faith, or spreads Qu'ran's message around, or guides ijtihad within Islamic society.

The Khatm e-Nubuwwah means "Seal of the Prophet", and Ahmediyyas interpret it differently. In their opinion the intention of the meaning is not the chronology.

"Seal of the Prophet" can just as well mean a "Having the Legitimacy to speak in name of Allah", that is one who comes bearing the Legitimacy of Allah, like a messenger comes with an envelope from his king bearing a letter, and the letter has a seal on it! It can mean that Muhammad delivered the message in the Qu'ran without modification!

So there is some scope for interpretation. Till now the interpretation has been done only by those who wished to prolong the supremacy of Muhammad's message, not allowing anything new to come in, diluting the message. Others can play the game as well.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian obviously felt that there was some scope for loosening up the interpretation of "Khatm e-Nubuwwah".
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by Agnimitra »

^^^ Ibn Arabi also followed the same line of reasoning in his Futuhat. He has argued that the possibility of a Wali is open according to the verse 33:40. Ibn Arabi also stated in the Futuhat:
"From the study and contemplation of the Darud we have arrived at the definite conclusion that there shall, from among the Muslims, certainly be persons whose status, in the matter of prophethood, shall advance to the level of prophets, if God pleases. But they shall not be given any book of law".

So, Prophetic-level kashf (revelation) is still possible according to a few Moslems like Ibn 'Arabi, though there can be no modification to the religious law.
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by Agnimitra »

Bahrain Sunni-Shia split manifests itself in mistrust
Anti-government protests in Bahrain were suppressed last year with the help of Saudi Arabia, but the tensions between the Sunni leadership and the Shia majority population are never far below the surface.

Fears of Iran

People in the crowd repeatedly told the BBC that anti-government protesters were being controlled by Iran.

As speakers denounced the main Shia opposition party al-Wefaq, one government supporter said, "Al-Wefaq does not represent the people of Bahrain. We are the real voice of the people. Wefaq is the voice of Iran."

But Wefaq's senior leader, Sheikh Ali Salman, denied any connection between the party and Iran. When asked by the BBC if there was any truth to the charge, he flatly denied it.

... many Sunni believe if not Wefaq, then either Iran or Hezbollah is behind the nightly rioting in Shia villages and the demands of the opposition.

As one man at the pro-government rally told me, "The Shia are controlled by Iran. They do exactly what Iran tells them to do. 100% of the Shia are behind Iran."

...

Human rights activists say that the Iran charge is simply a smokescreen.

"This is just another way for the government to try and deny the legitimate demands of the people," argues veteran democracy campaigner Nabeel Rajab.
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by arun »

X Posted.
Carl wrote:Imam killed in arson attack on Belgian Shi'ite mosque

One person arrested after imam dies in Anderlecht while trying to extinguish flames from Molotov cocktails.
Turns out that the arson attack of the Mosque in Brussels which led to the death of the Mosque’s Imam was a case of Green on Green Intra-Mohammadden sectarian bloodletting :

Deadly Mosque Arson in Belgium Attributed to Sunni-Shiite Friction
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by arun »

Green on Green intra Mohammadden violence in Australia where Mohammaddens belonging to the Shia sect and Alevi subsect are victims of religious inspired violence perpetrated by their co-religionists:

Petrol-bomb attack on religious group
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by arun »

Suicide bombing in Damascus on saturday turns out to be a case of Green on Green violence with Mohammaddens of the Sunni sect claiming to have carried out attacks to avenge the claimed killing of their sect members by co-religionists belonging to the Shia sect and Alawi / Alawite sub sect:

Islamists claim Syria bombs were to 'avenge Sunnis'
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Re: Islamic Sectarianism

Post by akashganga »

ramana wrote:They want to delink Islam from India

it should read they want to delink India from Islam.
'They want to delink Islam from India'

Rakhi Chakrabarty Dec 4, 2011,

Arshad Alam, who teaches at Delhi's Jamia Millia Islamia, in his recent book 'Inside A Madrasa: Knowledge, Power and Islamic Identity in India' offers insight into the diversity of Indian Islam and attempts to dispel myths about madrasas. He talks to Sunday Times about the ongoing Wahabi vs Sufi debate

Wahabism is used pejoratively in India and refers to Islamic revival movements such as the Deoband. It's better to understand the current polemic as Barelwi vs Deobandi conflict. It is a contest of power within Indian Islam.

What is the background of this debate?

In India, the British first used the term Wahabi for Muslims who declared jihad against them. The Deobandis were alleged to be Wahabis because they were against syncretic practices such as visiting the shrine. Defending some of these practices was Ahmad Riza Khan, who justified the importance of shrines and pirs. The Barelwi identity crystallized around the writings of Khan.

Sunni Sufis claim Deobandis are trying to import petrodollar-Islam ...

The promotion 'petrodollar' Islam is part of the foreign policy of Saudi Arabia. Their funds have gone into building mosques and promoting Islamic education in many countries. Muslim groups have tried to get a slice of this pie by positioning themselves close to Wahabism, which which alienates them from their specific cultural location.

We can see attempts to "purge" Islam of Indian influences...

Islamic reform is primarily about 'purging' indigenous influences, taking Muslims away from the Indian cultural landscape towards an Arabian cultural model . De-coupling Islam with its Indian environs has consequences for cultural pluralism . The challenge is daunting as the project of Islamic reform is common to both Deobandis and Barelwis.

My comments. I have been reading about how pitbulls behave. In effect they are bred for fighting. The pitbull has bred into it the ability to fight without giving quarter and is trained to kill only. It has been known to rip the underbelly of a surrendering dog. Its a killing machine.

Wahabi teaching converts Islamist jihadis into pitbulls or killing machines.

The UK and US, without knowing or knowingly what they are dealing with, have unleashed this meme virus in Sufi Islam and the world is paying for this.
Muslims whether they call themselves sufis or sunnis or wahabis or barelwis or whatever are all the same. The phrase Indian Muslim is oxymoron. You are truely an indian only if you believe and respect 10 thousand years of indian spiritual traditions which includes Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, or Athiesm. How can a practicing muslim (or for that matter fundamentalist christian) in India who looks to middle east for spiritual guidance and who has no respect for thousands of years of indian spiritual heritage be Indian.
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