Bharat Rakshak

KLN Murthy - I would agree, and public opinion may be swinging in that direction. We shall have to see.

One positive sign is the big citizen led clean ups in Clapham and Ealing, and the way the kinds of people the Chavs idolise - the sports stars, the singers and actors and media personalities have unanimously condemned the rioting and supported citizen efforts.

JE Menon wrote:Johann,

By the second night, it was clear things were getting out of hand. Cannot a curfew (the announcement alone would have made most people stay at home) be enforced by the police, who apparently have been given the authority now to use plastic bullets? No need to bring the army in. I mean, so much of property damage and destruction of small business operations could have been avoided. I can understand the reluctance to set a precedent... but the situation so far already seems unprecedented.

More than curfew, the delay in the decision to bring in those extra reinforcements from outside London, and fully stand up the Met was the real failure. With sufficient numbers they could have taken back the streets with or without curfew, with or without non-lethal ammunition, and prevented the destruction in Croydon and Clapham Junction in particular.

The question is whether it was a failure of assessment, or a failure of leadership. I don't know yet whether the problem was that the Met failed to anticipate the seriousness of the second night, or if the political leadership and Met Command waffled when presented with the options. My suspicion was that it was probably a bit of both

A lot of people seem to feel in their gut that this was a failure of leadership - people at the top waiting to see how things turned out for fear of being seen as over-reacting. If thats the case they will pay a political price for their misjudgments. Of course that will only be a marginal compensation for those who lost their homes and businesses.

JE Menon wrote:Johann,

By the second night, it was clear things were getting out of hand. Cannot a curfew (the announcement alone would have made most people stay at home) be enforced by the police, who apparently have been given the authority now to use plastic bullets? No need to bring the army in. I mean, so much of property damage and destruction of small business operations could have been avoided. I can understand the reluctance to set a precedent... but the situation so far already seems unprecedented.

There is a bit of unavoidable smugness on BRF given the regular lectures we receive from auntie. But still, few I'm sure are pleased by this wanton destruction going on. Anyway, let's hope things get under control sooner rather than later.

Sirjee!

undieTV was lauding the humaness of the angrez policing and calling Indian policing very brutal in comparison. sonia singh was in chair onlee. Dunce cap was unfortunately missing.

no end to this bullshit. This is what comes of having angrez management.

Certainly not the kind of policing and protection the rate payers are expecting from their government. Polite cops?? wanton destruction continuing inabated while the namby pambies are pussyfooting about?

was this the same britan that fought the nazis?

One group of hoodlums ran over another blessed community group, and killed three people of "south asian origin" any one think that with UK police shown to be utter useless nincompoops, incapable of dealing with a mild riot, the faithful will now not get ideas?

UK is toast. This is nothing. Watch the space.

A discussion is going on about underclass lashes out, why this argument? The education system till school is free in UK, it is not difficult to get into the system, acquire skills and become employed, if this is a warning by the underclass about cutting benefits it should be confronted and defeated, this benefit system has produced a breed of kaamchor uneducated youth, it is high time they say no to them.

Recently a woman was caught who claimed benefits on the grounds of incapacitating giddiness and then was found sky diving..!

I feel very sorry for the furniture shop owner of croydon who had successfully brought the show room to this point through 144 years.! I feel burning down that shop was a message that if we can't achieve it we will destroy it..! I have a feeling many of these rioters in London were illegal immigrants.





Maurice Reeves of Reeves furniture store

Once the dust settles, and there is an investigation, I'm sure it will come out that the government and the police were in cahoots with the rioters. There was a report up the thread where the police car didn't even stop in the presence of rioters looting some store. Another indicator is the laidback approach of the government to get the situation under control.

illegal immigrants come to the Uk to work, make money and mostly improve their situation (except criminal gangs)
the underclass is not them, its people who have chosen to NOT be educated, NOT seek employment and EXPECT the state to look after all their needs. when the state fails to give them everything for FREE at the level they can see the hard workers getting - AND the police are not controlling them and the courts are NOT PROSECUTING them and penalising the police and the citizen on the basis of Human Rights violations, then these people will seize the opportunity to run riot (literally)

vera_k - the government and the police have been incompetent, not complicit

And now police is advising against vigilante groups-formed by mostly small business community who do not have confidence in police

When rioters struck in Stoke Newington, north-east London, on Monday night, a group of Turkish shopkeepers were in no doubt about what was required.

In Southall, west London, hundreds of Sikh men stood guard outside their temple and patrolled the streets on Tuesday night.



"We want to show the rioters we are here together," the temple's president, Himmat Singh Sohi, told Sky News.
"We will put beyond doubt that homeowners and small shopkeepers who use reasonable force to defend themselves or their properties will not be prosecuted," said David Cameron in June.

His pledge was put to the test a few days later when a Salford homeowner stabbed to death a man who was trying to break in to his house. The homeowner was not prosecuted.

"Self-defence has been endorsed very recently, even by the prime minister, but vigilantism is when you go out after the person who has threatened you - and that is not tolerated."

"A group of the English Defence League turned up in the high street and have been drinking all day, and although they say they're here to assist the police, they [the police] have now diverted all these resources here," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

Scotland Yard sounded a similar warning.

"What I don't need is these so-called vigilantes, who appeared to have been drinking too much and taking policing resources away from what they should have been doing - which is preventing the looting," said Met Police Deputy Assistant Commissioner Steve Kavanagh.

How is it that in the midst of all this rioting the perennially aggrieved RoP and packees aren't joining in?

IndraD wrote:A discussion is going on about underclass lashes out, why this argument? The education system till school is free in UK, it is not difficult to get into the system, acquire skills and become employed, if this is a warning by the underclass about cutting benefits it should be confronted and defeated, this benefit system has produced a breed of kaamchor uneducated youth, it is high time they say no to them.

Boss, I dont think you understand the situation in these places quite well. Which city do you live in?

The schooling system in these neighbourhoods are shockingly bad. They are caught into a trap (not always the kids fault) because their parents are on benefits or not doing much, then these kids see that and they don't realise that there are opportunities to get out. Some of these school only offer 2 a levels - go look at the type of places that accept only 2 a levels. Can they go to a good uni? The School teachers don't really care after a point - they can get beaten up by these very kids!! Not many kids are given the opportunity to aim for top sets etc because if a Kid underperforms it affects the teachers chances of promotions etc.

Seriously if this was goin on I am sure you won't let your kids out. These people just don't give a F.

The benefit cuts haven't even kicked in properly yet until nxt year.

I have a feeling many of these rioters in London were illegal immigrants.

You are being sarcastic right?

The rioters "thrill" that they could riot without being apprehended as mentioned by Johann (?)could've easily been squashed with tear gas and a few warning shots.The softly-softly approach in London was seen with jubilation by potential rioters and gangsters in other parts of England.The ludicrous statements that parents should ask their kids to stay home-in effect asking the parents to do the policing,plus firm committments that the army would NOT be brought in,gave the rioters the confidence that they could get away with impunity.

I truly sympathise with PM David Cameron.He is not responsible for the current mayhem.The fuse was lit a long time ago during the Labour years,and he has just taken charge under v.difficult financial conditions -a gobal ecession to deal with and Euro woes,and has had to make cuts in policing budgets.Understandable.But he has been too slow to take control and implement tough measures.He can yet retrieve the situ by ordering curfews and a "shoot-to-kill" policy for violaters and rioters.The world will understand as we see it every day on our telly screens.When "barbarians are within the gates",they must be dealt with extreme prejudice.In addition,those found guilty of rioting and who already have criminal records ,must be deported.The British jails are overloaded with enough scum.I suggest that some of the remote islands in the Falklands be used as prison camps for such offenders,who deserve long term imprisonment.There would be no need to rigorously imprison them,they could escape if they want to,as it's a long swim back to Blighty!

Nothing will happen tothese rioters. They will be given cautions. Some will have a few tough sentences just tosend a message since the public have become aware andthe govt did something about it. THey will all be out and about roaming the streets again soon. 1 year sentence will mean 3 months on good behaviour. They dont have the space for these people in prisons.

derkonig wrote:How is it that in the midst of all this rioting the perennially aggrieved RoP and packees aren't joining in?

They are better organized and more purposeful, they will not join random looting. In fact it appears that White and black gangs are targeting them as well. Three have been deliberately run over by a car.

They will however certainly watch and learn. The mirage of "UK is a first world country onlee" is gone. Now they will see that UK is not very different from IOR region around Somalia. They will use the same tactics.

Fun times.

Twitter has refused to close the accounts of London rioters who used the service to spread unrest and insisted that Tweets must 'continue to flow'.
The US-based company said that 'freedom of expression' was essential and that information would be 'kept flowing'.

link

Why police were so soft on London looters: They 'were ordered to stand and observe' as capital burned (but in Manchester they were hunting looters within hours)

Yard insiders: Officers were 'told just to try and contain violence'
Complaints by public that looting mobs were being allowed to continue
Tactics finally changed on Monday as armoured vehicles moved in
Met Police took three days to issue pictures of offenders

why police was soft on london looters

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... iots/print

Those condemning the events of the past couple of nights in north London and elsewhere would do well to take a step back and consider the bigger picture: a country in which the richest 10% are now 100 times better off than the poorest, where consumerism predicated on personal debt has been pushed for years as the solution to a faltering economy, and where, according to the OECD, social mobility is worse than any other developed country.

As Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett point out in The Spirit Level: Why Equality is Better for Everyone, phenomena usually described as "social problems" (crime, ill-health, imprisonment rates, mental illness) are far more common in unequal societies than ones with better economic distribution and less gap between the richest and the poorest. Decades of individualism, competition and state-encouraged selfishness – combined with a systematic crushing of unions and the ever-increasing criminalisation of dissent – have made Britain one of the most unequal countries in the developed world.

First France, then UK and next who else?

ramana wrote:First France, then UK and next who else?

Italy?

I miss Fallaci. She didnt PC/mince words.

sorry double post

Years of liberal dogma have spawned a generation of amoral, uneducated, welfare dependent, brutalised youngsters

A few weeks after the U.S. city of Detroit was ravaged by 1967 race riots in which 43 people died, I was shown around the wrecked areas by a black reporter named Joe Strickland.

I heard a guy talking on radio. One of the maasa public radio stations was interviewing him from London. He talked about how riots were nothing new to the city. He highlighted the fact that the rioters were not really angry at the Police. The initial rage that was triggered because of Mark's death had paved way to something different. He was astonished that people looted and destroyed private/individual businesses. In the past, the rioters had mainly attacked large establishment. This time, small bakeries, post offices ityadi were not left alone.

Sanku mia is giving too much credit to Packi bhais. I think they are gob-smacked after watching the young feral rioters steal their thunder. Packi bhais were under the mis-conception that they were the only group what could hila the sarkar

There is a recent Bollywood movie Patiala Hosue, where Rishi Kapoor plays an Indian origin shopkeeper who has resentment agasint the Brits for race riots in late sixties. He prevents his son from playing for the cricket team. And finally agrees to let his son pursue his dream and play cricket for the national team.

Everyone dumped on Rishi Kapoor's portrayal of the expatriate old man for being so narrow minded.

Looks like deja vu all over again.

UK's image couldn't have got more sullied

London assesses damage to reputation

London First, which represents large businesses, said it was planning a series of meetings with agencies and member companies in the capital to gauge how best to tackle the issue of London’s reputation as a safe place to visit and do business.
Many countries, including France, Italy, Sweden and Denmark, have changed their travel advice to citizens visiting Britain, urging them to exercise “extreme caution” when venturing out at night and to avoid crowds.
The US also issued advice to Americans in the UK on its citizens’ services website. At this time of year, more than 333,000 international visitors are in London every day

Offenders and thugs being let off with mild punishment, at times warning only

Chair of magistrates Melvyn Marks told the court many of the cases had aggravating features, occurring ''in the middle of a very violent riot'', which meant magistrates had insufficient sentencing powers.

Student David Attoh, 18, from Retreat Place, Hackney, was caught on August 8 in Hackney, with two Burberry t-shirts.

Attoh, who the court heard has completed an ICT B-Tech at Hackney Community College and was due to have an interview for an apprenticeship on Tuesday, admitted theft by finding.

The student, who was fined £150, had been receiving Education Maintenance Allowance (EMA) while completing his B-Tech, but over the summer was supported by his mother, the court heard.

Mr Marks told him: "Don't get in trouble again. "You have a bright future ahead of you, if you get into trouble again you are going to jeopardise that future."

Most defendants this morning pleaded guilty to their offences - but, despite their crimes being serious enough to be committed to Crown Court for sentencing, many were given bail, often with an electronic tag.

Defending the 11 year-old, Vicky Thompson said he was given a referral order after being convicted last Wednesday, but it had not even begun yet.

A sr judge in an interview on sky told that those who are less than 18 years old (hence a kid) might get a youth referral or fine, many of them can't be charged since the crime of looting burglary do not invite strong punishment.

IndraD wrote:Offenders and thugs being let off with mild punishment, at times warning only

A sr judge in an interview on sky told that those who are less than 18 years old (hence a kid) might get a youth referral or fine, many of them can't be charged since the crime of looting burglary do not invite strong punishment.

Of course they will all have to be not rigorously charged, because then they will have to listen and publish the grievances of the accused. Since, it is a first world country of stiff upper lips and all that, there can be no grievances. Problems, alienation and grievances are reserved for turd world countries.

Only thugs and robbers exist. How can there be any issues at all?

JwalaMukhi, do you really think these thieves are being treated more lightly than most teenage first offence burglars? You have no idea how soft the legal system in the UK has been on property crime and on juvenile crime in the last 4 decades. That is part of the reason the two are so synonymous.

The ones they will come down harder on are the organised adult looters, and especiallythose they can prove via Blackberry and CCTV incited others to commit arson and attack the police or motorists .

Informs http://www.telegraph.co.uk/ :

They were, some said, the alienated poor. But the accused rioters include students, a businessman’s daughter and a boy of 11.

Hmmm - why do I get the feeling that all this is no big deal? Britain has these riots every decade or so. Bad things happen and after that it's back to normal. But I do agree with Johann that Britain has changed in some fundamental ways - let alone the Britain of 1947. The Britain of 2011 is not the same as the Britain of the 1980s.

Isn't it amazing how very few people have been killed? Surely there should be stabbings and revenge murders. I don't want to do an equal equal, but In India a riot is an opportunity for me to stab the man who teased my sister last year, or to batter to death a the guy who keeps pestering me to pay back the money he lent me. This is not the first time I have thought about this. Even back in the 80s i was amazed at the seemingly weird style of policing in Britain.

I think what tends to be forgotten is that Britain along with the rest of the "west" has been very very strict about implementing laws. Murderers are relentlessly pursued and caught and punished and the sentencing is very public. Heck even drunken driving is taken so seriously that people are genuinely scared to drive drunk and take taxis. Looting minus assault is a relatively minor offence and does not warrant shooting. That level of seriousness about murder is not yet there in Indian law enforcement - twisted as it is by a murdering political class. Since murderers can get off lightly we actually see interviews of murders who say that candidly.

Britain ultimately is like the USA. You must not murder Brits. You can murder foreigners in a war and you will be decoarted. In India you can murder Indians, but dharma and ahimsa switches on when it comes to murdering Pakis and foreigners.

Sorry.

^^ It is a very valid point that I've often pondered as well

Thinking about this over the years I have come to the conclusion that there are (roughly, and as a kind of ballpark guesstimate), three types of society. Feudal, quasi feudal and law abiding.

The first is a feudal society in which the rich and powerful control the law enforcement apparatus. They ARE the law. If you are poor/without influence or a godfather you can get killed for looting. You can get killed for petty theft. You can get killed for murder. Yau can get killed just like that - even for a traffic offence. You have no rights. If you are rich and powerful you can murder and rape and get away with impunity. Pakistani society is still exactly like this.

At the other extreme is British and other law abiding western societies (more European than USA I guess). Also Japan and Singapore. The societies are totally ruled by law. The judicial system and the law ennforcement are totally guided by the law. It does not matter if a man is rich or poor, powerful or weak. If he commits a crime he receives punishment that matches teh crie. You cannot be lynched or killed on suspicion of petty theft. You wil face trial and receive the most severe punishment available to law if you are a murderer or rapist. A Law abiding society is not that people abide by the law. The law enforcement and judicial system ensure that everyone abides by the law equally - even themselves. The law lays down the method of establishing whether a crime was committed and the law has guidelines for the level of punishment that a given crime can receive.

I am happy to note that Indian society shows signs of moving from being a Pakistan like society to a more law abiding one. But still, in India if you are rich and powerful, the police will allow themselves to be bribed by you to change records an you can get away with murder or rape. Petty thieves may get lynched or even be killed in police firing. Indian society is still "quasi feudal" This thread is OT for that - but will explain some other time. The incarceration of people like Kalmadi, Raja and Karnataka's corrupt minister Katta Subramanya and his son in jail are a refreshing sign of hope for my country while Mayawati's spending 20 crore public money on her personal mansion causes anger.

The open admission by British looters that they will get away lightly is in indicator of how well the people themselves know how far they can go. In India too there are people who know that they will get away after murder. They too know how far they can go. India needs to be far more like Britain and far less like Pakistan.

shiv wrote: The judicial system and the law ennforcement are totally guided by the law. It does not matter if a man is rich or poor, powerful or weak. If he commits a crime he receives punishment that matches teh crie. You cannot be lynched or killed on suspicion of petty theft. You wil face trial and receive the most severe punishment available to law if you are a murderer or rapist. A Law abiding society is not that people abide by the law. The law enforcement and judicial system ensure that everyone abides by the law equally - even themselves. The law lays down the method of establishing whether a crime was committed and the law has guidelines for the level of punishment that a given crime can receive.

Shivji, how about if one is black or white? Does the same rules apply? Apparently, people in minority boroughs do not think so.
The whole thing started off :which questioned the above assumption (due to race). The implementation of law is not uniform, at least per the aggrieved party. Now, that kids have taken over, the contentious issue is off the charts, and the focus is on small time crooks.

JwalaMukhi wrote: Shivji, how about if one is black or white? Does the same rules apply? Apparently, people in minority boroughs do not think so.
The whole thing started off :which questioned the above assumption (due to race). The implementation of law is not uniform, at least per the aggrieved party. Now, that kids have taken over, the contentious issue is off the charts, and the focus is on small time crooks.

Oh there is racial discrimination all right but there are openly visible systems to ensure that it does not happen or is discouraged. It is difficult to compare what is bad in Britain with what is bad in india. Apples and Oranges. Bangalore buses have had signs only in Kannada. Ahmedabad buses only in Gujarati. Street signs in Birmingham suburbs/Leicester when I last saw them were in English, Gujarati and Urdu.

Lest we forget, UKstan has sheltered rank criminals, vile terrorists, drug lords, mafia kingpins and the likes from Indian justice all these years by providing them assylum and thereby state protection, funding, networking, sources and resources. And then comes making available the ink and paper we use to print our currency notes to papistan. Wah, wah only.

Kindly have no misguided sympathy/ empathy/ganapathy for perfidious albion. Sadly, like some1 pointed out, these riots are no big deal and things will normalize mighty soon. Assterity shall breath down brit stiffnecks for a while to come, however, I surmise.

Athens Olympics in 2004, Beijing in 2008 and now Lond(on)istan in 2012. Olympics does seem to be a goodluck mascot only. jai hor and all that.

Hari Seldon wrote:Lest we forget, UKstan has sheltered rank criminals, vile terrorists, drug lords, mafia kingpins and the likes from Indian justice all these years by providing them assylum and thereby state protection, funding, networking, sources and resources. And then comes making available the ink and paper we use to print our currency notes to papistan. Wah, wah only.

Kindly have no misguided sympathy/ empathy/ganapathy for perfidious albion. Sadly, like some1 pointed out, these riots are no big deal and things will normalize mighty soon. Assterity shall breath down brit stiffnecks for a while to come, however, I surmise.

Not sympathy. There is a lesson. Brits screw others and stop short of screwing themselves. We are happy to screw ourselves and invoke culture when it comes to screwing others.

Man1 and Woman1 are happily married. Man2 and Woman2 are less happy with their marriage. Man3 and Woman3 fair even worse with their marriage.

Man1: Look at you couples, how mean you are to each other.
Woman1: Yeah, yeah, Man2 abuses Woman2.

Years pass by...Man1-Woman1 relationship is not all rosy now. Man1 gets drunk and throws Woman1 out of the house.

Man2: Why saar, what happened? Why did Man1 throw her out?
Woman2: Did Man1 lose his job? Are their kids okay?
Woman3: Did Woman1 say something bad to Man1?

Man3: Look at our marriages, our marriages are so horrible. Who are we to talk about Man1 and Woman1. Our life is so wretched, it is getting better, yet Man1-Woman1 marriage is rock solid, it is so better yada yada blah blah. Man1 gives Woman1 jasmine flower. Woman1 makes kheer and kesari every night. Man1 loves Woman1 so much......blah.

Man2: But why did Man1 throw Woman1 out NOW? What changed?
Man3: Let us mind our own business, we are so lousy, we are corrupt, we oggle at other women, who are we to talk about Man1-Woman1.

Woman2: But Woman1 is standing out in the rain!
Man3: Yesterday, you were walking in hot sun, and where was Man2? He does not love you so much to drop you at the bus stop.
Man2: But....I was watching cricket. It was the last over and India was beating England.
Man3: See, Man2 loves cricket more than you - Woman2.

Woman3: So, why are we talking about our marriages? Right now Man1 has thrown Woman1 out, no?
Man3: It does not matter, they are still far better than us. When we point a finger at others, three fingers point us. We are so bad. I am bad. He is bad. She is bad. You are bad. And BTW, Man5 and Woman6 are evil too.

^^Oh, of course, saar. India was conquered by Indian troops after all, officered by Brits only. We're an old civilization but only a recent nation. Will take time and unlearning before we arrive at a stage where we divide the world into Dar-al-hind and dar-al-harb only.

Deaths of 3 Muslims stoke ethnic tensions

Speaker after speaker complained that they had pleaded by phone for police protection the previous night, when black gangs raided local markets and chased bar staff onto the roof of one pub, yet police failed to respond.

Another pointer to official complicity with the rioters. Note that the UK has one of the highest if not the highest ratio of police personnel to civilians.

Funny thing, all these European nations became rich through External Immigration (under the Guise of Colonism) are now complaining against immigrants due to these riots.

What gets my Gall is many AMericans of European descent whose ancestors took no visa and robbed the native americans of thier land and killed them complain about immigrants? how ironical is that? eh?

vera_k wrote: Another pointer to official complicity with the rioters. Note that the UK has one of the highest if not the highest ratio of police personnel to civilians.

If this is the great Britian that Shiv holds as model for India to be? I would much rather be like Pakistan thank you. At least in Pakistan things are clear.

GB is like Pakistan pretending to be something else. Very dangerous, you could get fooled into thinking that this place actually has law and order and you are safe.

So yeah my vote for Pakistan.

------------

Of course living in India I don't have to worry about either of the two, but that's just me.

Sanku wrote: GB is like Pakistan pretending to be something else. Very dangerous, you could get fooled into thinking that this place actually has law and order and you are safe.

So yeah my vote for Pakistan.

------------

Of course living in India I don't have to worry about either of the two, but that's just me.

Well you're just one among millions of Indian WKKs rooting for Pakistan. One small step for WWKism.One giant leap for you. No better place than India for this. Congrats!

What is the point in having a very civil, restrained and unarmed police force if mango man has to come out with baseball bat to protect his home and business? Then he is taking risk and doing the job police should have been doing in the first place. Police did protect the human rights of offenders but what about those of shop keepers and mugged aam aadmis?