Indian Naval Discussion

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Dec 2011 12:34

^^ He is talking about the six new type with AIP ,almost close to $ 2 billion per sub.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Dec 2011 12:53

massive price tag...probably as much as a barracuda or virginia class ssn. i wonder what can justify such a tag for merely a SSK which even with AIP has grave limitations in deployment options. imo its a big mistake to go ahead with yet another line of foreign subs unless its the bedrock of a line of atleast 20-25 subs in tranches on the same hull design...to amortize the new infra cost across many hulls.

Soryu mki is the only thing that looks potentially useful here.

we cannot commit financial suicide by getting a dinky AIP pak-specific SSK for $2b each

this is serious money and can setup 8 big universities for instance @ $250 mil each (1250 crore)

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 01 Dec 2011 13:21

Singha wrote:massive price tag...probably as much as a barracuda or virginia class ssn. i wonder what can justify such a tag for merely a SSK which even with AIP has grave limitations in deployment options. imo its a big mistake to go ahead with yet another line of foreign subs unless its the bedrock of a line of atleast 20-25 subs in tranches on the same hull design...to amortize the new infra cost across many hulls.

Soryu mki is the only thing that looks potentially useful here.

we cannot commit financial suicide by getting a dinky AIP pak-specific SSK for $2b each this is serious money and can setup 8 big universities for instance @ $250 mil each (1250 crore)

hmmm great Indian loot.. I am telling you sir... 5 years down the road you will look back at this and laugh.. !!

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 01 Dec 2011 14:12

Thats 11B will end up being 12 or even 15B by the time the sub is selected and 1/2 of us might be granddaddies

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Dec 2011 14:49

AIP to be "demonstrated" by 2015! Yet another technology demonstrator by the famed DRDO boffins.Ha!Ha! When will itt be certified? We had in the past technology demonstrators like the LCA,Arjun,etc.Look how long they took to enter service and the (mostly foreign component) LCA is still waiting to do so.The Russians are to build 6 new Kilo-636.3 improved versions for their navy in 5 years flat,and take a look at this report,about the Chinese adding "20",yes,20 new subs before 2020,and will possess 100 subs mostly new construction by 2030!

While the MOD,AKA and the numerous committees to look into the reports of the committees previous prevaricate upon the next line of subs,where they will be built,how they will be built,who will build them,etc., etc.,we will as the poster above has said, be granddaddies and for those of us about to become granddaddies,will be either "six ft. under" or in "Davy Jones' Locker!" The surviving Indians by then may be speaking a new langage...Mandarin!

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/htm ... 01293.html

China Builds Up Submarine FleetThe Chinese Navy is expected to procure 30 more submarines by 2020 and bring the total from the current 62 to 100 by 2030, Hong Kong's Ming Pao daily reported on Tuesday.

According to the paper, the U.S. has 75 subs, 26 of them deployed in the Asia-Pacific region. China is building up its Navy, including retrofitting its first aircraft carrier.

Bloomberg News quoted experts as predicting that Asia-Pacific nations will have up to 86 more subs by 2020......

....and at what costs per sub?

....US$200 million per sub or $6 billion for 30.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 02 Dec 2011 00:06

krishnan wrote:6 subs for 4 billion..how does it make more than 1B for each?

These sub numbers are for public, Paki and Prc consumption. we wont know the real numbers of Sub produced.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2011 05:48

I was looking at the wiki of U214 submarines. some nuggets wrt to turkish deal for local manufacture and using many local parts and problems with the sub

On 1 July 2011, the 2 billion euros order for six U 214 submarine material packages placed with ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems by Turkey has entered into force with receipt of the advance payment. This enabled ThyssenKrupp to begin executing the order. The order was designated to contribute to securing employment at HDW in Kiel, as well as at many subcontractors in Germany and Turkey, for the next ten years.[12]
NRP Tridente (S161) submarine.
[
The Type 214 procurement programs of international customers have had a history of technical problems. The first Type 214 submarine sold to Korea, Son Won-il, was reported to suffer noise problems allegedly due to faults in HDW's Type 214 design. South Korean and Greek Type 214 submarines had a host of other nearly identical problems, including instability while surfaced, periscope vibrations and seawater leaking in the hydraulics. While these problems in the South Korean Type 214s have been reportedly resolved, the noise level has yet to be reduced as promised by HDW. The company was fined $4.1 million by DAPA in February 2008 for ongoing technical problems. In November, a South Korean National Assembly demanded price reductions for the remaining six submarines, arguing that HDW was using the South Korean market to correct faults in the Type 214 to increase the submarine's overall international export potential. It is uncertain if DAPA received a price reduction for the fourth unit when it was contracted to DSME.[13]

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2011 05:50

and germany will not reveal any secrets where it matters. fuel cells are the new jet engine game all over again...we need a domestic project to show progress before technology will be offered by anyone

As the Turkish Type 214 will have a significant amount of Turkish indigenous systems on board, this variant of the Type 214 will be known as the Type 214TN (Turkish Navy). HDW will preassemble structural and mechanical parts of the submarine in Germany, or classified elements such as the fuel cells and propulsion system and will then ship them to Turkey. All electronic and weapon systems (including the C4I system) will be of Turkish design and production.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 02 Dec 2011 06:28

Navy to roll out 52 fast interceptor craft in a yr.

To augment coastal security, the Indian Navy will roll out 52 fast interceptor crafts within a year out of which 12 would be stationed at the Southern Naval Command base in Kochi.

“They are small in size but have great speeds and are capable of destroying even large vessels,” said the vice admiral, Mr K.N. Sushil, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Southern Naval Command. “We want to improve coastal security and will also also use them for anti-piracy missions.”

Pointing out that the piracy off the Somalian coast is still a major threat, Mr Sushil asked the Indian fishermen and merchant vessels to maintain a tight vigil.

“We got inputs that they are attempting to lure small fishing boats by offering cheap fuel from Yemen and Iran,” he said. “Then they capture them and use them.”

The vice admiral said that the mysterious Iranian ship, MV Assa, anchored close to Lakshadweep, was armed with machine guns and that the ministry of defence lodged a strong protest with Tehran.

“Currently the ship is anchored 150 to 160 miles away from out territorial waters,” he said. “So far they have not violated any rules. But since they are armed, we are keeping a close tab. They maintain they carry the weapons to thwart pirate attacks.”

Mr Sushil said the process of setting up radar towers along the Kerala and Lakshadweep coasts was progressing.

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 02 Dec 2011 08:02

Vipul wrote:Navy to roll out 52 fast interceptor craft in a yr.

To augment coastal security, the Indian Navy will roll out 52 fast interceptor crafts within a year out of which 12 would be stationed at the Southern Naval Command base in Kochi.

“They are small in size but have great speeds and are capable of destroying even large vessels,” said the vice admiral, Mr K.N. Sushil, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Southern Naval Command. “We want to improve coastal security and will also also use them for anti-piracy missions.”

Pointing out that the piracy off the Somalian coast is still a major threat, Mr Sushil asked the Indian fishermen and merchant vessels to maintain a tight vigil.

“We got inputs that they are attempting to lure small fishing boats by offering cheap fuel from Yemen and Iran,” he said. “Then they capture them and use them.”

The vice admiral said that the mysterious Iranian ship, MV Assa, anchored close to Lakshadweep, was armed with machine guns and that the ministry of defence lodged a strong protest with Tehran.

“Currently the ship is anchored 150 to 160 miles away from out territorial waters,” he said. “So far they have not violated any rules. But since they are armed, we are keeping a close tab. They maintain they carry the weapons to thwart pirate attacks.”

Mr Sushil said the process of setting up radar towers along the Kerala and Lakshadweep coasts was progressing.

Utter waste of resources. Fast interceptor craft for peace time purposes are the tools of the COAST GUARD. The navy has no business buying these craft to fight piracy.

The navy should instead be relying on aerial surveillance & UAV's to patrol the blue seas.

Just another excuse to plunder the bank.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2011 08:16

probably a lot cheaper than expensive flight hours. and can patrol all over the place, plus directly intervene.

this is not the durand line where anything suspicious is just blasted with a hellfire from national bird, we need VBSS teams.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Dec 2011 08:32

Leo.Davidson wrote: Utter waste of resources. Fast interceptor craft for peace time purposes are the tools of the COAST GUARD. The navy has no business buying these craft to fight piracy.

The navy should instead be relying on aerial surveillance & UAV's to patrol the blue seas.

Just another excuse to plunder the bank.

^^^ Don't mind me asking ... but what exactly are your credentials in knowing what the Navy should use? They are asking for it when they have the choice of asking for FACs or UAVs. What makes you think that you can decide better?

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 02 Dec 2011 10:12

Leo.Davidson wrote: Utter waste of resources. Fast interceptor craft for peace time purposes are the tools of the COAST GUARD. The navy has no business buying these craft to fight piracy.

The navy should instead be relying on aerial surveillance & UAV's to patrol the blue seas.

Just another excuse to plunder the bank.

- India has a huge coastline.

- Navy already have significant infra for aerial surveillance. Surveillance can see them, can't stop them.

- There is need for cost effective (both in terms of initial investment and operational cost) watercrafts that can act on intel provided by aerial surveillance as well as do some patrolling themselves.

- Being cheap and less manpower demanding, these FIC's can be procured in significant numbers and stationed at stratergic points to check large cross section of coastline.

- A big ship though can cover greater area, but can be present at one place at any given instant of time. Fifty smaller ones have that advantage. I think they will procure much more in time ahead.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2011 10:48

the CG is also getting a huge num of small boats incl around 100 we ordered from a SL shipyard iirc.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Dec 2011 11:56

Austin wrote:^^ He is talking about the six new type with AIP ,almost close to $ 2 billion per sub.

I've never really understood what on earth makes these 6 P-75I subs so freaking expensive. Seems ridiculous that each should cost nearly 3-4 times as much as the Scorpenes that are yet to even enter service.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Dec 2011 12:03

I sympathise with Leo,but there is a tug of war going on regarding the "boss" of the CG with the IN getting shafted! It stands to reason that all maritime security should come udner the IN,but the babus want the CG under their control.The CG's capabilities are also limited with their requirements also held up due to lack of decisionmaking,therfore the IN,if it wants to protect its bases and ports from attack needs its own fleet of small fast attack/patrol craft,which can do the business.When it eventually gets the CG under its overall command,it can hive off some of these interceptors to the CG later on.The pitiable condition of the newly formed maritime police,yet to be fully trained and equipped with craft bought in a hurry that are so inhospitable to sail in,only aqdds to the responsibilities of the IN.safeguarding its vital bases and installations are a key priority in the wake of 26/11.As many have pointed out,one could imagine the chaos had the naval base at Bombay been attacked ,with its warships,carrier and subs all a stone's throw away from the Gateway!

PS:The Scorpene is even more xpensive thatn a bleedin' Akula-2/3!

koti · Post by **koti** » 02 Dec 2011 12:10

Vipul wrote:Navy to roll out 52 fast interceptor craft in a yr.

Mr Sushil said the process of setting up radar towers along the Kerala and Lakshadweep coasts was progressing.

Are they Radars or Sonobuoys?

koti · Post by **koti** » 02 Dec 2011 12:12

Any BRFites coming for the Navy day this Sunday in Mumbai?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Dec 2011 12:32

Kartik wrote:I've never really understood what on earth makes these 6 P-75I subs so freaking expensive. Seems ridiculous that each should cost nearly 3-4 times as much as the Scorpenes that are yet to even enter service.

Probably they are taking things into consideration like when the decision is made it would be nearly end of this decade when the project is actually approved and passes CCS and inflation will take its toll , the other would be to build new manufacturing facility with a private ship builder who would make these subs and some transfer of technology package.

koti · Post by **koti** » 02 Dec 2011 12:38

Any chance of the costs to include the life cycle costs for some xx years?

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 02 Dec 2011 14:07

I am planning to attend on Sunday. Any idea what's in store for us?

Regards,
Khambat

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 02 Dec 2011 14:49

30 November - successful launch of Brahmos from Teg.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 02 Dec 2011 14:52

Indian SSBN Sea Trials Soon: Navy Chief

India's nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine Arihant is on track, and will be sailing out from its dock in Visakhapatnam for sea trials in the next few months, Indian Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma said today.

Some good news but not very concrete.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Dec 2011 14:59

Some update on the 2nd Submarine line program based on Sevmash interview today

Russia is offering Amur 1650 for this it comes with Club missile and Brahmos can be fillted in VLS position. AIP is mentioned as mandatory for Indian Tender a AIP will be demonstrated to Indian

Posting the relevant part

What does the "Sevmash" for export of military shipbuilding?

- Probably in mid-2012 will be an Indian tender for diesel submarines, which, I hope we can win.

We offer boat balanced, with great combat capabilities. We are talking about "Amur-1650".

The boat has adopted missile complex "Club". Under this complex is a joint Russian-Indian development of missile "Brahmos". We propose to equip the "Amur-1650", which we leave to the tender, such launchers. We have made elaborate - they fit perfectly in an upright position.

But the customer is fixated on airindependent power plant (VNEU). This is a worldwide chip. I do not exclude that a few years all will forget about it, but now traded on the world market is a boat with such installation.

In Russia, these being developed?

- "Ruby" is a great job of creating AIP. We are almost complete bench test sample. We have confirmed the technical feasibility of producing hydrogen directly on board the boat. Then there is an electrochemical generator. This scheme does not store hydrogen on board, like the Germans, and make it on board.

It also allows you to use standard diesel fuel, does not require complex onshore services. In this setting has no moving parts, that is, in terms of acoustics, we have a great advantage.

In December of that year, the project is planned to show the Indian delegation.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 02 Dec 2011 17:02

Philip wrote:....and at what costs per sub?

Quote:
....US$200 million per sub or $6 billion for 30.

Great! We will order 10 of these with the Chinese (2Bill)and cut our order back to 5 subs (9Bill).

If we are paying $2B per sub, we should get the entire design, materials, components assembly transferred to India. And get full help from the manufacturer to mate our current and future missiles to these.

How difficult is it to scale down Arihant and put diesel power plant on it?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Dec 2011 19:28

Navy to protect ONGC Videsh assets in South China Sea : Vice Admiral DK Joshi

Tomorrow I will give you some info on Aircraft carriers.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 02 Dec 2011 19:41

Sea trials soon of India’s indigenous n-submarine

link

The sea trials of India’s indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant are scheduled in a few months from now and it is likely to be inducted into the navy by the end of 2012, when it will lurk in the deep seas awaiting its prey.

Indian Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma said at the force’s annual press conference Friday ahead of Navy Day on Dec 4 that the process of readying the nuclear-powered submarine was ‘on track’.

‘By and large we are on track. A firm date can be given when we go for sea trials that will hopefully happen in a few months from now,’ Verma said when he was asked about his last Navy Day promise that INS Arihant will go out on high seas patrols by 2012-end.

India had launched the 6,000-tonne submarine into the waters at Visakhapatnam Naval Dockyard on July 26 in 2009. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his wife Gursharan Kaur were present on the occassion.

INS Arihant has been built under the navy’s advanced technology vessel (ATV) programme at a cost of $2.9 billion. The vessel is critical for India possessing the capability to launch nuclear weapons from an underwater platform.

With India’s declared ‘no first use’ policy on nuclear weapons, the country’s weapons system must survive a first strike for retaliation. To that effect, INS Arihant’s primary weapon is stealth as it will be able to lurk in ocean depths of half a kilometre or more and fire missiles from under the sea.

The submarine is powered by an 85 MW nuclear reactor and can acquire surface speeds of 22 to 28 kmph or 12 to 15 knots, apart from a submerged speed of 44 kmph or 24 knots.

With a crew of 95, it will be armed with torpedoes and missiles including 12 ballistic missiles. Four more nuclear-powered submarines of this class have already got government’s nod, adding to navy’s underwater combat potential in the years to come.

On the safety of the nuclear submarine, the navy chief said there was a requirement of a regulatory authority and Baba Atomic Research Centre will play a major role in this.

He said the issue was not about nuclear safety while the vessel is at port but while it is at sea and hence the modalities for that and basing of specialist on board the vessel are under consideration.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 02 Dec 2011 20:09

^
The submarine is powered by an 85 MW nuclear reactor and can acquire surface speeds of 22 to 28 kmph or 12 to 15 knots, apart from a submerged speed of 44 kmph or 24 knots.

With a crew of 95, it will be armed with torpedoes and missiles including 12 ballistic missiles. Four more nuclear-powered submarines of this class have already got government’s nod, adding to navy’s underwater combat potential in the years to come.

Will · Post by **Will** » 02 Dec 2011 22:06

Austin wrote:
Kartik wrote:I've never really understood what on earth makes these 6 P-75I subs so freaking expensive. Seems ridiculous that each should cost nearly 3-4 times as much as the Scorpenes that are yet to even enter service.
Probably they are taking things into consideration like when the decision is made it would be nearly end of this decade when the project is actually approved and passes CCS and inflation will take its toll , the other would be to build new manufacturing facility with a private ship builder who would make these subs and some transfer of technology package.

The way things are going about the P-75I it would make more sense to build an additional 6 scorpenes. MDL will have free space once the hulls of the current lot are constructed.

John · Post by **John** » 02 Dec 2011 22:14

Will,
The question should is it worth purchasing SSKs at 1 bill+, remember main advantage of SSK is supposed to be there lowest procurement and operating costs compared to their nuclear counterpart. But on other side SSKs have much slower cruising speed, limited payload and range. With P-75 prices cost sky rocketing, why not scrap program all together focus on inducting cheaper fleet of diesel subs based on U-209s and use rest of many to induct more Arihant or newer class of attack submarine.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2011 22:16

+100. 2nd SSK line is a needless money sink. instead we can build 6 more Scorpene2, with more advanced gear and Klub from torpedo tubes.

use the money to setup a 2nd line for hunter-killer SSN (4500-5000t) while SBC-Vizag continues on with our SSBN units (4 on order).

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 02 Dec 2011 22:18

A firm date can be given when we go for sea trials that will hopefully happen in a few months from now

This statement is different from "A firm date can be given when we go for sea trials but will hopefully happen in a few months from now.

Is he saying they will know the date in a few months or that the sea-going event will happen in a few months ?

Will · Post by **Will** » 02 Dec 2011 22:29

John wrote:Will,
The question should is it worth purchasing SSKs at 1 bill+, remember main advantage of SSK is supposed to be there lowest procurement and operating costs compared to their nuclear counterpart. But on other side SSKs have much slower cruising speed, limited payload and range. With P-75 prices cost sky rocketing, why not scrap program all together focus on inducting cheaper fleet of diesel subs based on U-209s and use rest of many to induct more Arihant or newer class of attack submarine.

Well the idea was to build an indigenous design based on the U-209's. Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat was all for it. But George Uncle and the NDA had other plans and so the Scorpene.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Dec 2011 23:50

http://www.bharatrakshak.com/NEWS/newsr ... wsid=16986
2012 :

I am become Time, the destroyer of worlds..
No longer be! Arise! obtain renown! destroy thy foes!
Ṇamō arihantāṇaṁ

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 03 Dec 2011 08:04

Will wrote:Well the idea was to build an indigenous design based on the U-209's. Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat was all for it. But George Uncle and the NDA had other plans and so the Scorpene.

Adm Retd Bhagtwat was very much in the loop for Scorpene sub purchase. Don't attribute every problem to the sacking. Sacking was not due to Scorpenes. When it was approved I had asked him why he called the sub 'pea shooter' when he himself was involved in the purchase procedure? (It was one of the other time I was expecting him to throw me out of his house

) His reply amounted to (not explicitly) "pea shooter at exorbitant prices" (read graft slur). The indigenous sub story is different. All the alarm of sub numbers dwindling began during his term.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 03 Dec 2011 08:21

INS Vindhyagiri beyond repair

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 03 Dec 2011 08:28

chackojoseph wrote:
Will wrote:Well the idea was to build an indigenous design based on the U-209's. Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat was all for it. But George Uncle and the NDA had other plans and so the Scorpene.
Adm Retd Bhagtwat was very much in the loop for Scorpene sub purchase. Don't attribute every problem to the sacking. Sacking was not due to Scorpenes. When it was approved I had asked him why he called the sub 'pea shooter' when he himself was involved in the purchase procedure? (It was one of the other time I was expecting him to throw me out of his house ) His reply amounted to (not explicitly) "pea shooter at exorbitant prices" (read graft slur). The indigenous sub story is different. All the alarm of sub numbers dwindling began during his term.

Maybe he is used to massive kilo firing massive kloop wonlee, compared to that Scorpene/excet is a pea shooter wonlee.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 03 Dec 2011 09:18

INS Vikramaditya to operate from Mumbai

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 03 Dec 2011 09:25

^^^

He also said that the IAC-1 has been delayed indefinitely

CJ sir what does that mean ? Does that mean the launch of the IAC-1 has been delayed ?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 03 Dec 2011 09:25

suryag wrote:^^^
He also said that the IAC-1 has been delayed indefinitely
CJ sir what does that mean ? Does that mean the launch of the IAC-1 has been delayed ?

Yes.