shiv wrote:shiv wrote:Islam means killing and slavery. That killing and slavery are part and parcel of the "Islamist values and drivers". Nothing else. That is the model. Please educate me if Islam means anything more than that to you. As long as you labor under the delusion that there is more to be found - you will believe that I am somehow being insulting to Islam by attributing "human foibles" to murderers while ignoring "Islamic values and drivers" which you somehow believe exist beyond what I have described.
RajeshA wrote:half right, half wrong!
You're right that Killing and Slavery are part and parcel of the "Islamist values and drivers"! However with the position you have taken, you wish to deny that there is a method to these atrocities! You're portraying them as mindless acts.
You're also ignoring expansionism in Islam as a main driver!
Please RajeshA ji. Once again you are attributing words to me where no such words have been used. YOU are accusing me of calling Islamic murders as "mindless acts". Nowhere have I said that. I have been insisting that the murder and coercion are premeditated and are part of the design. How does that become "mindless" in your perception?
I did not say, you used the words "mindless"! I just said, you portrayed them as such through your earlier position.
Your position was/is that Islamic Power Elite targeted both - Subcontinental Dharmics as well as Subcontinental Muslim Converts for killing and slavery! They did not discriminate, discrimination was not a tool they used.
Secondly you said, that "killing and slavery are part and parcel of the Islamist values and drivers.
Nothing else." That sounds to me pretty much like "mindless" killing and slavery with no further motive than the acts themselves!
Now you say that "the murder and coercion are premeditated and part of the design"! That is BTW the position, I too stand for.
If according to you, coercion was 'premeditated and part of the design', then to what end? If the design was conversion of the Subcontinental Dharmics, then how would it work if there was no use of discrimination as a tool! Why would a Subcontinental Dharmic want to convert if he was going to be thrashed by the Islamic Power Elite regardless of his conversion! If I am going to be punched regardless of whether I recite the Kalimah or not, then why should I recite it and give up my Dharmic faith!
So I just have some difficulty understanding how the "Premeditation and Design" work together with "Both Muslims and Hindus were targeted"!
shiv wrote:Power hunger and domination is the first design in Islam. (You better believe this or else...!) Expansionism is a secondary consequence of the hunger for power and domination. Piety and protection are not anywhere near the top design goals. The view you seem to favor is one in which Islamic hordes were in the business of piety and protection of Muslims and elimination of Hindus. Is this correct?
I have long advocated that the Piety is simply a thin veneer that Muslims wear. It is just another word for "Submission" to the Diktat of the Islamist Overlord and Islamic Brutalism.
There is also as far as I am concerned much evidence of "Protection of Muslims" being a top priority. In fact, on the contrary, the Islamic Power Elite makes it its business to use the Muslim masses as fuel for its power hunger. Why else would one encourage 'Fidayeen' and suicide bombers? Why else would one be so war-mongering unless one was indifferent to the safety and protection of one's Muslim people?
Elimination of the Hindu however is a different cup of tea and was given much priority. There was also a second option given to Hindus, that of Dhimmism. Dhimmism is a secondary route to the same effect - submission to the diktat of the Islamic Power Elite. Dhimmism also gives the Islamic Power Elite Islamic sanction to fully exploit the Dhimmis - for slavery, for rape, for jiziya!
But even Dhimmism too can only exist if the Islamic Power is strong and can rule the land, and that is possible if there is a large section of the population whose loyalty belongs to the Islamic Power Elite, and those can only be Muslims. So conversion of the Subcontinental Dharmics remained a priority. Otherwise a handful of Central Asian Turks would not have succeeded in ensuring that 40% of the Subcontinental people would have become Muslims by 2011.
Expansionism - through conquering, migrating, converting, procreating, dhimmifying, by whatever means possible, remains an intrinsic part of Islam and is in fact crucial for the domination of the Islamic Power Elite. One cannot separate their "Power hunger and domination" from their main means of effecting that - expansionism.
What we see in Pakistan is the same Islamic script being repeated but without the Hindus to feed upon, so the Pakistanis have turned into Cannibals and are now eating away at the "less pious"! But the Ideological Expansionist dynamic is following the same script to a tee.
First the ideological tent is made narrower (Wahhabandi). Most Muslims are pushed outside the tent (Shias, Barelvis, Sufis, ...). Then the Muslims outside the tent are plundered, raped, killed, enslaved, etc. until they relent and enter the narrower tent of Wahhabandism! As long as there are people outside the tent, there will be an Islamic Mission to accomplish. Until all are within the tent, those outside can plundered, raped, killed and enslaved. Why? Because those such is the methodology of Islam to get everybody into the tent!
The point is that before this all started, it was the Subcontinental Dharmics who were the target for coercion. Muslim on Muslim Peace
started only after the Dharmics became extinct in Pakistan.
The Islamic Mission legitimizes the right of the Islamic Power Elite to rule and to do whatever they please in the name of Islam. Once the Islamic Mission is 'over', then the 'pious' would be demanding that the Islamic Power Elite delivers on other things like good governance, security, prosperity, etc., all things for which there is no recipe! So the Islamic Power Elite would always like to portray to the people that the Mission is not complete and they have to suffer still more, and their sacrifices are all for the sake and in service of Islam and Islamic Mission.
The Wahhabandi Movement is giving the RAPE a big scare. One might have seen articles where "Pakistani Liberals" have been lamenting that Pakistan should not have done away with all its Hindus, or articles which say that the number of Hindus in Pakistan is much higher than census figures suggest. Why are they making such noises? It is just another means to tell the Wahhabandis that there is no need for this second phase of Islamization to start, as the first phase is not yet over - there are still Hindus to convert!
For such reasons, Pakistan would also also not let go of Kashmir issue. It is another way for Pakistani Power Elite to escape the responsibility of truly delivering to the people. It is another Islamic Mission, which is incomplete, so the people have no right to demand the luxuries of good governance, security, prosperity, education and the rest.
If some Pakistanis suggest to let go of Kashmir issue, it is because they do not want the Islamic Power Elite to continue to use the issue to deny the Pakistani people some delivery of services!
Summarizing, I just want to make the point that the Islamic Mission is central to Islam and its Power Elite can hold on to power only as long as it can show that it is pursuing it. During its pursuit all manner of atrocities on those outside the tent are allowed by Islam and the Islamic Power Elite uses that sanction to fulfill its desires of power, wealth, land and women. Before the Dharmics became extinct in Pakistan, their conversion to Islam was the main Islamic Mission.
It has changed since then!
Educating Paklurks about the fact that their grandmothers were being raped in the Hindu kush after having their burqas ripped off by the Muslim invaders that Pakis admire so much. Sorry if this is OT for this thread. But the topic was never meant to grow into a new thread in any case.