Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul 2014

[Gagan]

Why this ban now? Is someone from the ISI/LET/AQ planning a nuclear / chemical IED Mubarak on the UK-stanis?

[Anujan]

^^^
Maybe. Also the crew have been caught smuggling Heroin from Pakistan to UK. Flight crews and ground crews are involved. Numerous incidents recently like this:

May 2012: http://www.dawn.com/news/721172/heroin- ... urser-held (flight steward had heroin inside his cap)
April 2013: http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2 ... ing-heroin (Air hostess motorma had heroin inside a laptop. How do you put heroin inside a laptop?)
October 2013: http://tribune.com.pk/story/619090/5kg- ... m-karachi/ (Abduls had hidden heroin inside the plane Pakistan. Probably ground crew involved. "Heroin in Pakistan" has multiple meanings now. )
November 2013: http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2 ... in-into-UK (Flight steward had heroin inside his suitcase. Total lack of imagination.)
http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/n ... -1-6410552

Shah then told officers he had another package containing heroin concealed in the waistband of his trousers.

[Peregrine]

Attack on ex-KP minister's guesthouse leaves 6 dead

PESHAWAR: An attack on a guesthouse 'hujra' of a former Khyber Pakhtunkhwa minister, Bakht Baidar Khan, belonging to the Qaumi Watan Party (QWP) early on Tuesday left six people dead and four others wounded in Lower Dir region of the province while another three persons were killed and two others wounded in a gun battle between two rival parties in Karak.

Those killed in the firing included the brother of Bakht Baidar and two policemen.

Cheers

[shiv]

We are so used to people knowing everything about Pakistan but still lying about Pakis that we get worried when someone tells the truth.

Yeah, I know it is funny. But it is not just truth telling from Christine. She traveled to India recently to promote her book (which is fine), and has been singing its praises ever since.

I am reading her book right now. I bought it dead cheap and paid in Rupees to read on Kindle.

Most of the information is exactly as we know it. The pre-partition moves of the Muslim league. What Jinnah said. What Mountbatten did. What Hari Singh did. What Pakis did. What the British did - although some details of British perfidy as known to us (via Sarila and others) are missing. She just adds more detail and gives copious cross references.

I am not sure why this work should be imagined to have less value because people have opinions about what Fair said or did in the past.

I think those who are critical of Fair or the contents of the book without actually reading it are simply doing a Salman Rushdie/Satanic Verses style dissing. In fact India is the exact place where this book needs to become essential reading for IAS entrance exams, along with a couple of others.

What becomes clear is the extent to which the army has converted itself to the idea of Pakistan. Fair describes the idea of Pakistan in far more detail (with references) than anyone else. The idea of Pakistan is to use Islam to unite Pakistan against India. The Pakistani army openly admits that if they are not against India the idea of Pakistan is dead. So it's not Islam alone or Islamism alone. It is Islamism as a bulwark against India. Most BRFites greet such info would yawn and ask "So what's new?"

Nothing is new other than the fact that someone outside BRF is saying it. And maybe more Indians will listen to a white woman. The real issue is that I think it is inevitable that the governance of Pakistan will become one with the LeT. Although Fair has not said that at least as far as I have read (I have read only 20%), the lesson for India is that there will not be peace with Pakistan as long as the Pakistan army exists and remains in control of Pakistan. Indians are insufferable idiots to imagine that there is an independent thinking "civilian government in Pakistan". Khangress party was wrong in believing that. The Indian media are wrong in believing that. I am not at all confident that the BJP understands Pakistan any better. They are the same as Congress.

That worries me. I would be happy to be proven wrong.

[dada]

shiv,

The Idea of Pk is to unite-use muslims of South Asia/Indian Subcontinent/SAARC (Afghanistan included) against Hindu Majority India.
So the Idea of Pk is not dead until the Pk army-isi-jamaat islami (including its indian & bangladeshi branches too) are finished off.
Peace with Pk is impossible atleast till 2050 or WW-III (whichever is earlier)
Prepare for a long drawn / superslow war , which will intensify slowly & surely like Israel.

[KLNMurthy]

shiv,

The Idea of Pk is to unite-use muslims of South Asia/Indian Subcontinent/SAARC (Afghanistan included) against Hindu Majority India.
So the Idea of Pk is not dead until the Pk army-isi-jamaat islami (including its indian & bangladeshi branches too) are finished off.
Peace with Pk is impossible atleast till 2050 or WW-III (whichever is earlier)
Prepare for a long drawn / superslow war , which will intensify slowly & surely like Israel.

There is an "idea" of Pakistan only if we can speak of the "idea" of a virulent pathological mutation of an organism. Idea implies some kind of volition. Does a virus have volition as we understand it, other than in a metaphorical sense?

I am confident that no one in India including the RSS understands what Pakistan is. It takes a modern philosophically-trained brain to understand Pakistan. In India, the intersection of such brains and a clinical scientific interest in Pakistan is nearly empty. BRF has some members who qualify, therefore we see glimmerings of insights into Pakistan here.

Strangely enough, our Ancients probably would have understood Pakistan correctly . Their description of rakshasas were couched in story and metaphor but Vyasa or VasishTa or Agastya, if they time travelled to the modern age, could have given a proper natural history and taxonomy for Pakistan. Maybe mapped the genome of pakiness. We revere our ancients but we are mostly like ignorant savages worshipping a sacred stone from outer space when it comes to understanding our Ancients, ironically because we are not Modern enough.

So, Pakistan will be dealt with on a symptomatic basis until such time as we raise the level of our collective intellect, or we sink into a degenerate state due to the pakiness effect, whichever comes first.

All this talk about Pakistan will "realize" X if Y happens at time Z is futile. Humans as a collective "realize" less than we give them credit for, and pakis are an extreme pathological case in this regard. All the evidence and commentary on BRF tells me that pakis will never realize anything, they are running on autopilot in a favorable ecosystem that shows no signs of changing.

[shiv]

shiv,

The Idea of Pk is to unite-use muslims of South Asia/Indian Subcontinent/SAARC (Afghanistan included) against Hindu Majority India.
So the Idea of Pk is not dead until the Pk army-isi-jamaat islami (including its indian & bangladeshi branches too) are finished off.
Peace with Pk is impossible atleast till 2050 or WW-III (whichever is earlier)
Prepare for a long drawn / superslow war , which will intensify slowly & surely like Israel.

In fact Pakistan faces insurmountable problems. Let alone the Muslims of the world or sooth Asia, it is not possible to unite all Muslims , period, either for that goal or any other goal.

The only, only goal the Pakista army has is to control all information, education and politics in Pakistan to keep Pakistan alive as an idea than means "islam against kafir India".

I will call you out on an error you have made - it is an error that all Indian leaders BJP, RSS, Congress, WKKs also make. You say 'prepare for a long drawn out superslow war'. You are wrong because that long drawn out superslow war started in 1947 and we have been in the middle of it for 67 years. And because it is long drawn out and superslow, Indians have not even noticed. It stared with great intesnity in 1947 and flared up in 1965. After that it has been sizzling and fizzling.

[shiv]

There is an "idea" of Pakistan only if we can speak of the "idea" of a virulent pathological mutation of an organism. I am confident that no one in India including the RSS understands what Pakistan is. It takes a modern philosophically-trained brain to understand Pakistan. In India, the intersection of such brains and a clinical scientific interest in Pakistan is nearly empty.

+1

[Mihaylo]

There is an "idea" of Pakistan only if we can speak of the "idea" of a virulent pathological mutation of an organism. Idea implies some kind of volition. Does a virus have volition as we understand it, other than in a metaphorical sense?

+1

...and by extension, the "idea" of Islam as well.

-M

[ramana]

Shiv, Does she quote Sikander Hayat Khan about BIA being the sword arm of British India and that most of th recruits are from Pakjab and hence when Independence happens TSP will be having the upper hand?

This quote is there in Ian Talbott's "India and Pakistan" written in 1960(?).

The meaning of the quote is pre-Independence Pakjabi politicans had already planned on using the TSPA to further the idea of Pakistan. Its not a latter thing.

[sanjaykumar]

I think Ms Fair is revelling in doing it to the Pakistanis. http://klpd.com.my/

[Paul]

Express Sports ‏@IExpressSports 47m
BREAKING #CWG2014: #wrestling- Sushil wins GOLD after defeating Pakistan's Abbas 6-2 in his 74kg final #IndiaAtCWG

[vishvak]

Express Sports ‏@IExpressSports 47m
BREAKING #CWG2014: #wrestling- Sushil wins GOLD after defeating Pakistan's Abbas 6-2 in his 74kg final #IndiaAtCWG

Banias must had schemed to force current host to organize CWG during holy month of ramzan when the paki's Abbas was fasting for the whole month (only during the day) even in 'international' games times (only during the day).

That apart, the tallel deepel fliends had banned several practices during the holy month and pakis have no answers! That pakis would willingly sell some lands to Chinese just to spite at Indians is of no consequences for ever grievance-full common paki, even during holy month of ramzan.

Na baap badaa, no brotherhood, sab se badaa rupaiyaa (from selling lands to the Chinese).

[Vipul]

Martial race specimen rolls, bends and gives fine example of having tangdi uchi ki uchi.

India's two-time Olympic medallist Sushil Kumar took just 107 seconds to beat Pakistan's Qamar Abbas to win the gold medal in the men's freestyle 74kg category wrestling final in the 2014 Commonwealth Games on Tuesday.

After winning the gold, Sushil said the gold medal bout against Abbas was a cake walk for him and he predicted India's further domination in wrestling arena at the ongoing Commonwealth Games.

Abbas could not endure Sushil even for the full first three-minute period in the 74kg freestyle bout.

I was fasting throughout training and I couldn't give up fasting (due to Ramazan) for this so I wasn't at my best

I tell you SDRE Baniyas had I not been on a fasting mode I would have lasted one full second more and thus got 108 hoors (72X1.5) in Jannat.

[K Mehta]

You guys are seeing it from the wrong viewpoint, reality is that:
In a great show of South Asian co-operation, India helps Pakistan get silver medal in CWG 2014

India's two-time Olympic medallist Sushil Kumar took just 107 seconds to co-operate with Pakistan's Qamar Abbas to give the silver medal to Pakistan

After winning the medal, Sushil said the silver medal bout with Abbas was a cake walk for him and he predicted India's further co-operation with Pakistan in wrestling arena.

Abbas could not require even for the full first three-minute period to co-operate with Sushil

[RCase]

Martial race specimen rolls, bends and gives fine example of having tangdi uchi ki uchi.

I was fasting throughout training and I couldn't give up fasting (due to Ramazan) for this so I wasn't at my best

Dang... I read the first part as 'I was fast throughout training' and was awaiting the excuse of how the scottish dogs offended him so much that he could not concentrate during the real deal. Not to be... it is the same old excuse of how only the momim has a problem with his dietary habits and everyone must empathize with him for fasting during an atheletic meet.

He must not be a 'TRUE' muslim. If he were, Allah should have answered his prayers for properly fasting. Wasn't a Baki momin supposed to have 10 times the strength of kufr SDRE banias?

[shiv]

Shiv, Does she quote Sikander Hayat Khan about BIA being the sword arm of British India and that most of th recruits are from Pakjab and hence when Independence happens TSP will be having the upper hand?

This quote is there in Ian Talbott's "India and Pakistan" written in 1960(?).

The meaning of the quote is pre-Independence Pakjabi politicans had already planned on using the TSPA to further the idea of Pakistan. Its not a latter thing.

ramana, I do not recall reading that particular quote although she quotes liberally from earlier works on Pakistan. But Fair takes pains to point out that the seed of Pakistan's Islamist tendencies had been laid by 1947 and not after 1979 or even 9-11 as some people have imagined. This has been pointed out time and again on BRF - that the creation of Pakistan was the single biggest blow in support of Islamist extremism and exclusivism. She writes in detail about the way the British manned Indian units which consisted of 70% of people from the "martial races". There were virtually no Bengalis or South Indians. This eventually had an impact in 1971. She also points out how early the army was pulled into governance and uses quotes to show what each of the dictators Ayub, Zia and Musharraf did to make the Pakistani army synonymous with the protectors of the idea of Pakistan which, to repeat, is simply "For Islam, against India"

[Nandu]

Another interview by Fair, by a Paki reporter on VOA.


The reporter tries very hard to catch Fair out, but she doesn't yield.
Interestingly, she says she started this book project to help explain TSPA PoV to Americans.

[KLNMurthy]

Another interview by Fair, by a Paki reporter on VOA.


The reporter tries very hard to catch Fair out, but she doesn't yield.
Interestingly, she says she started this book project to help explain TSPA PoV to Americans.

22:15 She says India has interfered in Baluchistan.

[shiv]

22:15 She says India has interfered in Baluchistan.

The book itself has several quotes about how the Pakistan army in 1947 got less in terms of infrastructure and facilities than it was slated to get from the division of the pre-independence armed forces - but she does not lay the blame entirely on India, pointing out that geographical constraints, the political situation and the fact that Pakistan itself was a sort of "frontier area" for the British with fewer facilities.

I would judge Fair as being neutral. She is not trying to please anyone but has simply stuck to facts as she has found them from sources that she quotes.

[Shreeman]

22:15 She says India has interfered in Baluchistan.

The book itself has several quotes about how the Pakistan army in 1947 got less in terms of infrastructure and facilities than it was slated to get from the division of the pre-independence armed forces - but she does not lay the blame entirely on India, pointing out that geographical constraints, the political situation and the fact that Pakistan itself was a sort of "frontier area" for the British with fewer facilities.

I would judge Fair as being neutral. She is not trying to please anyone but has simply stuck to facts as she has found them from sources that she quotes.

Shiv,

Perhaps Ms Fair is a mine-layer for others to trip upon. Her termperament fits. She is not a great one, though.
For all the perspective, throwing in the long dead equal-equal is one land mine. Raising "core" issues is another mine. Giving bakis somwthing or somepne new to talk re. us/india is a third one. I now see this exercise as a precursor to post-2014 rehyphenation rather than any scholarly exercise.

The best thing would be the fire sale to finish quickly and for this effort to fail and be a thing of the past. the longer it sztays in conversation the more likely ms fair regurgitates more of her past behavior at the "right" time.

once bitten, still hurts....

[wig]

bak army set for major churning

The Pakistan army is poised for a major reshuffle at the top as at least five senior Generals will retire in October this year. This will be one of the major reshuffles in the army’s top brass in recent years.

Those who are set to retire in October this year include Corps Commander Peshawar Lt General Khalid Rabbani, Corps Commander Mangla Lt General Tariq Khan, Corps Commander Karachi Lt General Sajjad Ghani and Corps Commander Gujranwala Lt General Salim Nawaz. All will doff their uniform on October 1.

But the retirement of Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) chief Lt General Zaheerul Islam, also due in October, is being seen as the most crucial development.

One security official dispelled speculation about any differences between the ISI chief and the government triggered by the absence of Lt General Zaheerul Islam from recent meetings with the political leadership.

He pointed out that Lt Gen Zaheerul Islam might have skipped the meetings in line with his strategy to keep a low profile due to the ongoing ‘Zarb-e-Azb’ military operation in North Waziristan Agency.

The retirement of the DG ISI would no doubt test the skills of the Prime Minister, who has the authority to appoint the spy chief, although it appears difficult to think the federal government will take a decision without the army chief’s consent.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20140730/world.htm#2

[shiv]

I now see this exercise as a precursor to post-2014 rehyphenation rather than any scholarly exercise.

Shreeman, I think you and I are talking about two different things.

You are looking at the book in terms of purposes and consequences. I am merely looking at the content and can express no knowledge of why it was written, allowed to be written or what its consequences might be.

Whatever its consequences to anyone - I would like the contents of the book to be internalized by as large a number of Indians in power (politics, bureaucracy, media, armed forces) as possible. There is definitely something for Indians to learn here. Other than my own e-book which was aimed at Indians alone, most books about Pakistan are aimed at a western or US audience. So is this book - but its contents should mean a lot to Indians.

Fair is the first western author I have seen who does not interpret Pakistan's hatred and fear of India as "justifiable" because of big bad Hindu India next door. She describes Pakistan's hatred and fear of India as a feature that has been falsely and deliberately nurtured and encouraged by the Pakistani army from the 1950s for the purposes of using Islam as a unifier of Pakistan, using hatred specifically directed against kafir Hindu India as justification for unity as well as the excuse for economic and other difficulties faced by Pakistanis as the army justify their own grabbing of a large segment of resources. Fair also stresses the contempt that publications and personnel of the Pakistani army show for the civilian government. This is well known to BRFites although Indian polticians and media seem unaware of this.

She also points out that the Pakistani army has gone too far down that line and there is no turning back. This is what Indians need to understand. The sooner the better. What the US does with this book or with Fair will be of little consequence if Indians can take note of what really is a comprehensive and honest portrayal of Pakistan. The fact that she says some things that Indians may not like should do little to devalue the book as a reference for Indians.

Pakistan is set to have a lashkar e Toiba army and lashkar E Toiba government. We in India need to stop imagining that we can have friendship and good relations with Pakistan. The Indian government, including as far as I can see the government led by Shri Narendra Modi are living in cloud cuckoo land when it comes to Pakistan

[ramana]

The CD is because UnFair wrote it and is in danger of becoming Fair.
Its a good thing she has realised the perfidy of TSP and spreading the good news. Its like the Duplicity tyro who shouted Emperor has no clothes and is raving jihadi to boot.

[ramana]

Shreeman if not too difficult why don't you read her book and lets review it here.

[Shreeman]

I now see this exercise as a precursor to post-2014 rehyphenation rather than any scholarly exercise.

Shreeman, I think you and I are talking about two different things.

You are looking at the book in terms of purposes and consequences. I am merely looking at the content and can express no knowledge of why it was written, allowed to be written or what its consequences might be.

Whatever its consequences to anyone - I would like the contents of the book to be internalized by as large a number of Indians in power (politics, bureaucracy, media, armed forces) as possible. There is definitely something for Indians to learn here. Other than my own e-book which was aimed at Indians alone, most books about Pakistan are aimed at a western or US audience. So is this book - but its contents should mean a lot to Indians.

Fair is the first western author I have seen who does not interpret Pakistan's hatred and fear of India as "justifiable" because of big bad Hindu India next door. She describes Pakistan's hatred and fear of India as a feature that has been falsely and deliberately nurtured and encouraged by the Pakistani army from the 1950s for the purposes of using Islam as a unifier of Pakistan, using hatred specifically directed against kafir Hindu India as justification for unity as well as the excuse for economic and other difficulties faced by Pakistanis as the army justify their own grabbing of a large segment of resources. Fair also stresses the contempt that publications and personnel of the Pakistani army show for the civilian government. This is well known to BRFites although Indian polticians and media seem unaware of this.

She also points out that the Pakistani army has gone too far down that line and there is no turning back. This is what Indians need to understand. The sooner the better. What the US does with this book or with Fair will be of little consequence if Indians can take note of what really is a comprehensive and honest portrayal of Pakistan. The fact that she says some things that Indians may not like should do little to devalue the book as a reference for Indians.

Pakistan is set to have a lashkar e Toiba army and lashkar E Toiba government. We in India need to stop imagining that we can have friendship and good relations with Pakistan. The Indian government, including as far as I can see the government led by Shri Narendra Modi are living in cloud cuckoo land when it comes to Pakistan

Shiv,

Entirely true. More reading is better than less reading, even if one has differences on what the content says.

I havent bought the "reformed" justification. Thus, the fear. May you and ramana prove right on this, rather than I. Time will tell.

Your book is better than this prose. Have you contemplated giving Ms Fair some competition on the e-newsstands? I would rather people read that.

I am paranoid about re-hyphenation. Post november, there might be all sorts of noises. Lets wait and see what transpires in a couple of months. I am not really saying anything new, just a knee-jerk reaction to ms. fair.
The more I think about it, the more "non-reformed" reasons show up.

Ramana - hapoy to do so, but the kargil book is up first, and i wont get to a second book until late august.

[KLNMurthy]

22:15 She says India has interfered in Baluchistan.

The book itself has several quotes about how the Pakistan army in 1947 got less in terms of infrastructure and facilities than it was slated to get from the division of the pre-independence armed forces - but she does not lay the blame entirely on India, pointing out that geographical constraints, the political situation and the fact that Pakistan itself was a sort of "frontier area" for the British with fewer facilities.

I would judge Fair as being neutral. She is not trying to please anyone but has simply stuck to facts as she has found them from sources that she quotes.

I didn't read the book and only saw the interview but I agree with the interviewer--the whole business about the desire for Kashmir and general desire to fight India being ideologically driven and not driven by security concerns, elicits a big "duh, really? that is this lady's big point that she expounds with such earnestness?" from me. Of course it is ideologically driven, as is (as the interviewing Ayesha said) practically every long-standing conflict in world history. If it is a book meant for American policymakers, do they really not know this? Or do they just pretend to not know this, and harp on Pakistan's "security concerns" because they have to say something, after all, to justify their policy.

None of this would be new information for India, and I doubt that it is actual new information for American policy elite.

[Vikas]

There is a fear and concern among Paki elites and in Indian/Western circles that someday inspired by ISIS, Taliban and its cohorts will march into Lahore and Islamabad on Tanks with AK-47 in hands and will implement a harsher and inflexible version of wahabbi Quran.
Also that they will spread their own version of Shariah and would facilitate terrorist basis against India and western targets including Middle East and Shia Iran with a nuclear bomb to protect against any misadventure by neighbors.

Ironically the same people don't realize that there will be no marching of Tanks into Islamabad moment when it comes to Pakistan. The Taliban and Ayatullahs that these people are scared of are already in there. They are not masquerading as outsiders but they are your average Pakistani.
The face that Pakis, Indians and western world is scared of can be seen by each Pakistani when he stares into the mirror every morning. Pakistan has already morphed into the Talibani state with all its characteristics at all levels. It is just the purdah of accepting it which is keeping up this sham of 'Oh How enlightened and liberal average Pakistani is' or maybe it is our expectation to see Pakistan as replica of Afghanistan pre-9/11 that is clouding our vision.

The moment Pakis and Rest of the world has been waiting for with baited breath has already passed in such a slow motion that no one observed.
Paraphrasing old Hindi song, "Karvaan guzar gaya, gubar dekhte rahe"

[Prem]

Is Fair there throwing verbal snare for Indian Mere to create kind of Khushfehmi before Kerry come visiting Delhi?

[SSridhar]

How does one explain this phenomenon that the TFTA momin are not seen anywhere near podiums in the on-going CWG? OTOH, the SDRE men and women have done very well in Weight-lifting, wrestling, boxing and shooting. One expected the TFTA to easily floor the kafir Hindus in these events but I only saw a pathetic TFTA wrestler being comprehensively beaten very quickly by a kafir wrestler last night. Sharm. What is happening here? Is this a YYY conspiracy of sorts ?

[Paul]

Something interesting I found in a PAk RAPE's geneaology.

Zafar Hilaly, who often comes in Indian Talk shows is the nephew of Agha Shahi the foreign secretary of Pakistan in the 80s, who originally was from Bangalore and in turn was related to Sir Mirza Ismail, the erstwhile diwan of the State of Mysore.

He is Shia by background.

[shiv]

I didn't read the book and only saw the interview but I agree with the interviewer--the whole business about the desire for Kashmir and general desire to fight India being ideologically driven and not driven by security concerns, elicits a big "duh, really? that is this lady's big point that she expounds with such earnestness?" from me. Of course it is ideologically driven, as is (as the interviewing Ayesha said) practically every long-standing conflict in world history. If it is a book meant for American policymakers, do they really not know this? Or do they just pretend to not know this, and harp on Pakistan's "security concerns" because they have to say something, after all, to justify their policy.

None of this would be new information for India, and I doubt that it is actual new information for American policy elite.

Actually Christine Fair's message is crystal clear and the point is not that Pakistan is an ideological state. The point is that Pakistan problem is NOT a security problem. That means solving the Kashmir issue, arming Pakistan, funding its armed forces to improve security, or any mediation or pressure on India are all useless pursuits.

The message she gives to the US is very clear - that the money they are paying and the hints that have come from various US administrations that helping Pakistani's security concerns, or helping to solve the Kashmir issue are all totally pointless if the aim is to have some ameliorative effect on Pakistan. That is the point. Not the fact that it is an ideological state.

India can learn something from this although Fair has no specific advice for India as far as I have read. . Negotiating with Pakistan or giving them sops or concessions or behaving friendly is pointless. The ONLY thing India can do that might help is simply vanish from the face of the earth. That will probably collapse Pak anyway, but that is a separate issue

[SSridhar]

Shiv, if you have completed the book, let us know why Ms. Fair believes that all that money and aid and diplomatic support are a waste and are pointless.

[KLNMurthy]

Shiv, if you have completed the book, let us know why Ms. Fair believes that all that money and aid and diplomatic support are a waste and are pointless.

If I may jump in and suggest a provisional answer pending shiv finishing the book, at the same time walking back somewhat my earlier reaction to Fair's VOA interview:

CF is an empiricist, who goes by observations, in this case what she can find in public statements. So, US rationale as publicly stated for supporting TSPA, is proved to be a failure by her book which is based on empirical observation of TSPA journal publication content. For those of us who are "informed empiricists" her conclusions might seem trivial. I am afraid that the Indian thinker community, which mostly considers itself "informed-only", relying on "common knowledge", will ignore her empirical results.

She is planning to do a parallel research in India.

[SSridhar]

Of course it is ideologically driven, as is (as the interviewing Ayesha said) practically every long-standing conflict in world history. If it is a book meant for American policymakers, do they really not know this? Or do they just pretend to not know this, and harp on Pakistan's "security concerns" because they have to say something, after all, to justify their policy.

KLNM, I agree with you that the 'enduring hostility' is ideologically driven. I am not going to say anything new below, but I am simply recalling the chronology to put in the perspective.

We can clearly see four phases in this hostility.

The first phase was when the idea of Pakistan was about to become a reality. During those critical couple of years, the Muslim League employed all symbols of Islamism, including generating a fear psychosis that Islam would come under Hindu domination, unabashedly to secure its goals. It employed Islamist violence and terror on a very wide scale in Bengal, Punjab and NWFP. The 'secular' Jinnah compromised with very shady Islamist scholars like the Pirs and even more celebrated ones like Mawdudi who eventually changed his opinion of Pakistan being na-pak and jumped into the Pakistan bandwagon based on promises from Jinnah. It is in this phase that Sutti, Sudhan, Afridi & Mehsude tribesmen were asked to do a jihad in Kashmir against the kafir and a close relationship established between non-state actors and the Army as well as sowing the seeds of 'jihad-fi-sabilillah' among the PA. However, the collaboration with the jihadists was short-lived and the regular PA took over operations and banished the uncontrollable tribesmen from the scene. The presence of the Englishmen in the PA also probably helped.

The second-phase started with the deaths of Jinnah & Liaqat Ali Khan. As political instability overtook Pakistan throughout the 1950s, the focus changed inwardly as the PA took over control. Of course, the PA established a very close strategic relationship with the Americans with the sole intent of achieving its goals against India, which at that time was simply capturing J&K. The Anti-Ahmedi riots and the preaching of the popular Mawdudi increased the Islamist fervour and polarised the nation. Yet, the PA was not overtly or even covertly Islamist at this stage though the earlier 1947-48 conflict had such overtones.

The third phase started with the Presidential elections when FM Ayub Khan found himself pitted against the popular Fatima Jinnah. A rattled Ayub Khan sought the support of Mawdudi and gave him unprecedented access to state media and the society. Thus, the same Mawdudi who was sentenced to death was not only resuscitated but also accorded a high status. That is when Islamism took deep inroads into the PA. The evidence was soon available when Ayub Khan invoked deep Islamist symbolism in his two wars he thrust on India in 1965. More evidence was to come later when the JI-created Al-Shams & Al-Badr took part in the East Pakistan genocide along with the PA. As the PA lost East Pakistan and more humiliatingly surrendered to India, Islamism took even more central stage within the PA. The defeat against the kafir was attributed to 'not being Islamic enough'. If the PA dabbled with Islamism opportunistically until then, it was given a more central and a permanent role after 1971.

From that point onwards, Islamism took a stranglehold on the PA and the Pakistani society too (a society entangled with the PA and convinced of its invincibility) aided first by the 'secular socialist' ZA Bhutto and then the fanatic Zia-ul-Haq. The 'Islamic bomb' was produced. There was no turning back possible anymore. The clock cannot be reset and it is ticking away. Once the nuke was in its armoury, Pakistan assumed the role of the Janissaries, by claiming to be the 'defenders of the frontiers of Islam'. Ever since then, every Pakistani PM & President has claimed this role for the PA. Early this year, the Talblighi Jamaat, in a rally in Jerusalem, asked the PA to wrest control of the city from the Jews.

If the fourth phase was the to convert the society into practitioners of fundamental Islam during the reigns of ZA Bhutto & Zia, the 'democrat' Nawaz Sharif tried his hand in to becoming Amir-ul-Momineen. However that was nixed but that also gave rise to a period similar to Ayub Khan's when Musharraf came to an understanding with the most rabid Islamists and their supporters (such as Chaudhry Shujat et al) and gave them a free ride all over the country, especially in NWFP. The rest is history now. During this phase, the momin intruded the military to unprecedented levels. Military officers who had become deep Islamists tried to assassinate Musharraf, mounted several daring attacks on military installations destroying several assets and more importantly tried to seize the crown jewels themselves. PA tried to co-opt these rampaging Islamists by bribing them with millions of dollars or praising them as 'patriots' etc while sharing dais with them and signing peace deals. That nothing worked is another matter. It is precisely because of this, IMHO, that the relationship between the LeT and the PA, which was already strong, grew to an all-time high to the point of LeT being incorporated into the PA. A previous ISI chief admitted a few years back that conservatively 18% of the PA officers were Islamists. Given the Pakistani tendency to downplay such things, we can safely assume that at least one third of the officers are Islamists.

So, each phase was of increasing Islamist ideology within the PA and built upon the foundations of the previous phase.

In fact, Pakistan used the same Islamist fervour in its dealings with Afghanistan too, culminating in the creation of Mujahideen, civil war and later the Taliban.

IMO, the 'security paranoia' is an appealing smokescreen that is used by Pakistan to implement its devilish projects against both India and Afghanistan. I am sure that Ms. Fair was all along aware of this perfidy but chose to play along with the duplicitous Pakistanis for reasons that may become clear later on. One thing we have to be clear about also is that Ms. Fair's sudden enlightenment about Pakistan should in no way be interpreted as her support for Indian positions.

[ramana]

How does one explain this phenomenon that the TFTA momin are not seen anywhere near podiums in the on-going CWG? OTOH, the SDRE men and women have done very well in Weight-lifting, wrestling, boxing and shooting. One expected the TFTA to easily floor the kafir Hindus in these events but I only saw a pathetic TFTA wrestler being comprehensively beaten very quickly by a kafir wrestler last night. Sharm. What is happening here? Is this a YYY conspiracy of sorts ?

Fasting for Ramzan in hope of gorging on poor goats?
Maybe TSP is getting more TTPified even in sports.

[ramana]

KLNM, SS, Shiv and Shreeman,
US uses TSP as a covert checkmate device on Indian rise. Its geo-politcs plain and simple.
They trot out the excuse of TSP security concerns to give them AID(S) to balance India.

They backed the wrong horse in Indian sub-continent which turned out to be an ass.

Caroeian thinking of "Wells of power" added to Gen Calr Spaatz hope of airbase in Balochistan.

UnFair is also implying US wasted their money on TSP.

She is critiquing US by saying their munna is nanga. Added to the wasted efforts in GOAT and OAF its all pearls before swine.


Or perfume in ashes (Buudidha lo panneru!)

[disha]

Saars, as I said - it was a proud moment for all Saud Asians once A. Baki won (bronze)., what else remains?

PS: A. Baki is B'Desh shooter who won the bronze in CWG.

[CRamS]

On Fair didi, I am with DoCJi and others. True, us on BR need not go overboard with her changed stance now in contrast to er earlier TSP predilections, her attraction to TFTA Pakijabi manhood etc. As someone pointed out, her changed stance might also be because she wants a kushy retirement package and tenure etc. But I am not sure how this latter objective is achieved through her non conventional writings about TSP which goes against the grain of what the big boys think in DC: India TSP equal equal, use TSP nuke scare t make both India & TSP nuke nude, pigLeTs == "Hindu extremists" etc. As I speculated, a little bit of dissent from "useful idiots" like her suits the big boys well.

But from India's perspective, Fair didi's straight talk on TSP serves a huge purpose. If us on BR, or for that matter any SDRE were to say even the fraction of what Fair is saying about TSP, they will either be ignored or branded a "Hindu extremist". In fact, Arnab, Bakara, Tuedesai, Nidhi etc will host shows with idiots like Shoba De on how pointing out TSP's rabid Islamist ideology is communalism and anti-Muslim. Such is the rot among intellectually, morally bankrupt Indian elite cowards.

However, if a white chic like Fair didi says the same, the elite in India will give her a hearing and also repeat the same. To this end, Fair didi's book is welcome.

[shiv]

Shiv, if you have completed the book, let us know why Ms. Fair believes that all that money and aid and diplomatic support are a waste and are pointless.

Even 25% of the way through the book (as I am now), Fair has made a large number of references to literature from Pakistani army officers and publications that point out that their only goal is continuous, permanent resistance to (Hindu) India until India is brought down or simply hindered. This is put forward as the only goal in perpetuity, by the Pakistani army itself, in a series of articles, books and "policy" papers with no other practical goal of how to take Kashmir or any such thing.

I think Fair's argument is that when the Pakistan army's sole declared goal is to use Islam to resist India in perpetuity, with no hint of any new or different thinking for 50 plus years, and a gradual decline in the security situation of Pakistan because of the very Islamic militias that the army keeps nurturing to hit India with, and a continuous rise of India in the meantime - all boil down to a situation in which it looks like Pakistan is going to be a security risk for the US as well, not just India.

Nothing that the US (or anyone) can do will satisfy a Paki army that protects the Paki ideology of using islam against india.

I have not yet got to the last few chapters where Fair may have some suggestions - but as you all know I have suggestions of my own. No one, certainly not the US, will like my suggestions even if they ever got to hear them.My suggestions of course only augment the fears that everyone has.