IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 12 Jun 2015 23:15

brar_w wrote:That would have still meant that the induction of the M2K would have had to follow closely with the production of the Rafale. The french aren't going to limit the size of their air force to just the rafale. It would have also involve the french to agree to procuring 120 Rafale's at a very fast pace something that they don't have the money for given that they want the export customers to pick up their rafale production slots. For the french, the M2K is a no-cost proposition since its already purchased, swapping that for more rafales would require significantly higher capital expenditure which they cant afford at the moment as is reflected in the small rafale fleet coupled with an extremely slow production rate of just an aircraft a month.

It's all water under the bridge now but the Rafale intake would have been funded by Indian lease payments for the M2Ks and even a 3 for 4 (Rafale for M2K) ratio, the economies of scale would have kicked in for the ADA and export customers.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Jun 2015 23:55

Don't do a 'Hollande' and make statements that you are unqualified to answer. That is what Parrikar should have done.

My take on what Kaka (uncle) said is deliver within 2 years or else move on - no Rafale, we can manage.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jun 2015 00:06

If any one recalls, before NaMo announced the 36 Rafale deal, the reports said French President called meeting of French Air Force and & Industry to see if they can meet the proposal. And after getting assent the announcement was made.

Cosmo_R, You are not recognizing the role of Congress avarice in arms deal as a contributor.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 13 Jun 2015 00:19

NRao wrote:
Don't do a 'Hollande' and make statements that you are unqualified to answer. That is what Parrikar should have done.
My take on what Kaka (uncle) said is deliver within 2 years or else move on - no Rafale, we can manage.

The requirement was to deliver the first aircraft within 2 years was it not? I don't think all were expected to be delivered by 2 or 3 years

Also AIA reveals that they plan on doing 11 a year at least for 2015 and 2016, 6 Rafale's from this years production will go to Egypt. According to the CEO, Egypt expects all of its order to be fulfilled by 2018, and that should pretty much cover the entire french deliveries (at the rate of 11 per annum) in that period which will now be diverted to Egypt. This leaves french, Qatar and Indian orders to fulfill by either upping the production rate or by prolonging the order. Ideally the french would like the latter since that eats further into there obligations allowing them to defer capital expenditure as their economy recovers. Both Qatar and India would like the exact opposite.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... afale-deal

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 13 Jun 2015 07:14

ramana wrote:So Rafale is reneging on commitment made by Hollande to deliver in two years.

Looks like Trappier is thinking he can still string along India.

No way they could have met that target, even if they deferred Egyptian & Qatari deliveries. They have 48 confirmed export orders for the Rafale, produced at a rate of 11 annually. The earliest we can get our first Rafales is 2019 with the last delivered by early 2021 or late 2022 (depending on whether they increase the production rate).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jun 2015 08:07

at best we can expect 6-10 rafale borrowed from french attrition reserve or dassault company stocks to train instructor pilots and build the first squadron up before delivery of our planes. we should insist on that atleast.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Jun 2015 15:20

It's what I suggested during the contes,that the French could win the deal by offering a sqd. or two from their existing inventory,until the new birds flew in. Didn't we do something similar with the Sukhois,sending back the first lot of SU-30s,until MKI std. was delivered? What are we going to do for the 3 years when a hundred+ MIG-21s/27s will be pensioned off?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jun 2015 01:59

Dassault locks on to fourth Rafale deal
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/b3f1b674 ... z3d4czBNZx

In the above article, Eric Trappier - Dassault's CEO - states that in order to ramp up Rafale production...the tooling and capabilities exist, they just need to reinforce a certain workforce capability. What that means is no washroom breaks, 12 hour shifts and requests for vacation are automatically denied

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Jun 2015 09:34

Rakesh wrote:Dassault locks on to fourth Rafale deal
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/b3f1b674 ... z3d4czBNZx

In the above article, Eric Trappier - Dassault's CEO - states that in order to ramp up Rafale production...the tooling and capabilities exist, they just need to reinforce a certain workforce capability. What that means is no washroom breaks, 12 hour shifts and requests for vacation are automatically denied

I think that the french work 30 hrs a week. Overtime is bloody expensive and there is mandatory off after that.

No chance at all about 12 hour shifts.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Jun 2015 09:52

Anyone for the Paris Air Show? Am contemplating a visit.If done,will get info from the asses' mouth!

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 17 Jun 2015 02:25

Rafale deal with India in '2 to 3 months': France

LE BOURGET: French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said on Tuesday that talks with India over the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets were progressing well and would be finalized within "two to three months".

"The discussions with the Indian authorities are progressing very well," he said at the Paris Air Show where he met Rao Inderjit Singh, India's minister of state for defence, ahead of formal talks on Wednesday.

"I will travel to India very soon to see how it is all evolving but I don't have a single worry," added Le Drian, who was also in India last month for negotiations on the Rafale contract.

Asked how long until a final deal would be concluded, he said "in the order of two or three months", mirroring a recent estimate by his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 16 Jul 2015 18:34

All quiet on raffle front? What is happening, any newj?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jul 2015 03:33

The first Egyptian Rafale. From the contract sign of February 16, 2015 to the date this picture was taken (I presume July 15, 2015) has taken 5 months. This aircraft DM101 (and another - DM102) are right off the Rafale production line which were originally meant for the Armée de l'air. The only significant difference between the Egyptian Rafale and the French one is the latter has the ability to fire the ASMP-A nuclear missile, while the former does not. Sign the deal fast and hopefully we can get some just as quick.

http://rafalenews.blogspot.ca/2015/07/f ... otted.html

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Jul 2015 03:44

Based on IAF demands and economy growth, expect a repeat order of 36 for the Rafale in the future + 8 attrition reserves, to round off 4 squadrons of the Rafale.
Fair enough and will provide a lot of punch, even if 34% lower than original order.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jul 2015 05:07

There will be a repeat order of 36 Rafales. If this deal goes through, I can guarantee you that. If an additional 8 attrition reserves are bought, that will be a well rounded 80 aircraft order. Add the 50 Mirage 2000s that are being upgraded to the Dash-9 standard and you have 122 - 130 aircraft. 126 MMRCA anyone?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jul 2015 06:16

IAF seeks 80 fighters, not 36

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150705/j ... ahcerc4KPk

The Indian Air Force has told the government it needs at least 80 aircraft of the capabilities of the Rafale to make up for the shortfall in its fighter jet squadrons.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jul 2015 06:18

Here we go again

Neither side has learned from the previous episode. Someone has to budge.

Indian Rafale talks hit offset snag
http://www.janes.com/article/52553/indi ... ffset-snag

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 17 Jul 2015 08:31

^IAF may want MANY things, but it will get only what is good for India.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 17 Jul 2015 08:45

As per the above off set press report, French insisting that off set will increase the price. We can now say - here we go again. Earlier deal seems to have failed because of the cost. This time also they are going to bring in the same things. I fell the cost will kill the deal.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jul 2015 19:29

Arun: The problem is the Ministers and Babus have no clue what the IAF wants. They only look at cost. The IAF has sounded the alarm about the low number of squadrons, but apart from requesting shiny new phoren toys (i.e. in the case, the Rafale) they appear to be stubbornly opposed to other avenues. The Tejas is her current form is way better than the Bison and that is from IAF test pilots who have flown the aircraft. Secondly, unless anyone here has been living under a rock, Greece is going through her third austerity measure. We need to go there, buy their Dash-5s and get them here. Qatar may also sell her Dash-5s. Air Marshals sitting in their ivory towers, drooling over scale models of the Rafale is not going to solve the IAF's problem.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 17 Jul 2015 20:13

^True. Somehow, I just feel Rafale is never really gonna come.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 17 Jul 2015 20:32

Lets thank our stars that IAF is not asking for F22 or F35 or some Gen6 plane to replace the Mig21.
IAF is behaving like a spoilt child of a paki jarnail.
LCA is better than the paki thunder and MKI is better than the Cheeni J10 or sukhois. So , why this stubborness to buy rafale only. If the concern is about dwindling squadron strength fill it up with the MKIs and LCAs .
IAF needs to undergo austerity to understand how money matters. How about going without salary for just a couple of years like 4 or 5 which many govt teachers in the Badlands of U.P. are facing.
Same with IA . It wants transformers to replace T72 to fight on the dark side of moon but won't take Arjun that is better than T90.
God save India from its armed forces.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jul 2015 20:43

Arun: I have the same feeling. This offset tamasha is going to sink the Rafale. If that happens, it could be a blessing in disguise for the Tejas. Then again the phoren lobbies are very powerful in India.

Chinmayanand: We do not need enemies. We are self imploding. There is an old African proverb. If there is no enemy within, the enemy outside can do you no harm.

vinod · Post by **vinod** » 17 Jul 2015 20:50

They should just place an order for 36MKIs now. If French don't give in and the Rafale gets cancelled again, at least we will have MKIs arriving and making up the numbers.

We can decide on PAK-FA once the situation on Rafale comes out clear.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Jul 2015 20:57

Rakesh wrote:Arun: I have the same feeling. This offset tamasha is going to sink the Rafale. If that happens, it could be a blessing in disguise for the Tejas. Then again the phoren lobbies are very powerful in India.

Is there any offset for 36 which was promised to purchase in Paris?? I was under impression that these were in ready to fly conditions and as soon as possible, preferably within two or three years timeframe.

If IAF increases it to 80 then the deal is doomed.MMRCA is already junked. What alternative choice remains? Gropen? LCA?

With LCA , it is still some time away from production . It also doesn't have trainer version.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 17 Jul 2015 20:57

Chinmayanand wrote:God save India from its armed forces.

Sorry, but this is the first time in my life i have read a statement like this.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 17 Jul 2015 21:03

When we are decommissioning Mig-21 and Mig-27 Tejas can provide the numbers, later the AMCA provide the MMRCA role when it replaces Jaguars and Mig-29s.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jul 2015 21:07

chaanakya wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Arun: I have the same feeling. This offset tamasha is going to sink the Rafale. If that happens, it could be a blessing in disguise for the Tejas. Then again the phoren lobbies are very powerful in India.
Is there any offset for 36 which was promised to purchase in Paris?? I was under impression that these were in ready to fly conditions and as soon as possible, preferably within two or three years timeframe.

If IAF increases it to 80 then the deal is doomed.MMRCA is already junked. What alternative choice remains? Gropen? LCA?

With LCA , it is still some time away from production . It also doesn't have trainer version.

Saar, there was an intent to purchase 36 Rafales. That was the MOU between the two Govts. The finer points of the deal were to be worked out...which is what is going on now. The reality is that we have very little leverage. In fact, no leverage whatsoever. Dassault has nothing to lose ...they already have two confirmed export orders. UAE is just a matter of time IMHO. For us to make any demands or negotiate anything is a waste of our time. Saint Anthony royally screwed us over. If this deal does go through, a repeat order will come. That is guaranteed. The issues you raised about Tejas are workable, but the IAF does not want to work it.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 17 Jul 2015 21:44

It seems to me that there is a very simple solution to all this: the decision about weapon systems should not be made by the armed forces. The armed forces must only participate to the extent of telling their basic needs.

For example, IAF or IA can provide a list of their basic demands like:
Primary need(Necessary):
- to fill up the squadron numbers to replace the MiG21s. or a Tank to replace the T72s & T90s.

Secondary need(useful but not necessary):
- some extra toppings to make the whole thing more lethal and effective.

Tertiary need(fancy):
- some really fancy gadgets and technologies.

How those needs are fulfilled should not be in the hands of the armed forces. As long as, the primary need is being fulfilled by any local product, it should be used even if it does not have secondary bells and whistles. In time, all the bells and whistles can also be put in place. I think this is where the Ministry of defence must come in and make a call. It is unfair to expect the armed forces to look at such things. It is the job of ministry of defence to do that. Why blame the armed forces? Or even the babus? It is the politician's job to look at the big picture and make the call.

Bhaarath can never be safe unless it is able to out-build small players like pakistan. Pakistan is a small country. It is able to compete because:
- gifts to Pakistan from china, US and Russia. China, US & Russia are able to gift to countries like pakistan because they have a strong MIC.
- lack of strong MIC in Bhaarath which can out-build gifts that pakistan gets.

Even if Pakistan vanishes from the face of the earth, China & US can easily create another opponent to Bhaarath by gifting some weapons to Nepal or Sri Lanka or Bangladhesh.

So, in essence, Bhaarath has to build so many weapon systems that US or China or Russia cannot prop up any small player against us. Otherwise, any x, y or z country will be propped up on some pretext or the other. And we will forever be struck in importing from the same US, china or Russia(because they are the only ones with robust MIC).

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 18 Jul 2015 01:30

johneeG wrote:
Even if Pakistan vanishes from the face of the earth, China & US can easily create another opponent to Bhaarath by gifting some weapons to Nepal or Sri Lanka or Bangladhesh.

So, in essence, Bhaarath has to build so many weapon systems that US or China or Russia cannot prop up any small player against us. Otherwise, any x, y or z country will be propped up on some pretext or the other. And we will forever be struck in importing from the same US, china or Russia(because they are the only ones with robust MIC).

This is first basic geo politics 101.
India also needs a propaganda media

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jul 2015 03:25

johneeG...the model you suggested is not going to work. Defence Ministers and Babus are not aware of what is considered primary, secondary and tertiary needs when it comes to the armed forces. You run the risk of creating RFPs that are ambiguous and opens the door for even more arms dealers and corruption to occur...of which there is already plenty. Raksha Mantri Parrikar has already stated that some of the present RFPs are out of this world and unrealistic.

I quote ACM Pradeep Vasant Naik, "The armed forces have to meet the country's aspirations. And we need to have the capability necessary to meet those aspirations." I have para-phrased from memory, but I provide the link below when he actually made the statement. See from 0:45 to 1:10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyORsdJxIoA

Those aspirations are determined by the ruling govt. Armed forces in turn have to determine the platforms and the capabilities that are required to fulfill those aspirations. Therefore meeting aspirations and having the necessary capability are symbiotic. But the Prime Minister, Defence Minister or the Babu cannot determine what the strategic vision of the navy is. That is the navy's job. No else can do that. For example, to protect India's sea lanes you need a powerful navy and the navy has to determine what is the definition of "powerful". No Minister or Babu is going to be concerned with how many surface vessels, aircraft and submarines are required or how many BrahMos missiles or Barak-8 SAMs are required on a destroyer, how many and what kind of torpedoes/missiles does a submarine need to carry to ensure a powerful navy. The navy will advise the govt of what is required and the govt will then put out a RFP and the competitive process begins. However it is the navy's job to determine a Plan B, if Plan A falls through.

Here is where the air force has failed miserably with regards to the MMRCA. From ACM Arup Raha and prior, they all harp on this one mantra - There is no Plan B. We need 126 aircraft. Two examples are below.

Rafale deal hits air pocket
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150101/j ... amVcbc4KPk

A former air chief, Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne (now ambassador to Norway), had said that "there is no Plan B", underlining the urgency of procuring the Rafale.

We don’t have Plan B if Rafale negotiations fail, says IAF chief
http://www.newindianexpress.com/columns ... 699390.ece

“We are not working on Plan B. We only have Plan A,” Raha told reporters at the Aero India show.

Now that puts the govt in power in a predicament, but it speaks very poorly on the IAF. Now when the IAF tells them there is no Plan B, what else is the ruling govt expected to do? They have reduced the number of aircraft - and the IAF is already crying because it is not 126 - because of ridiculous cost escalations. But the govt relies on the information that the IAF is telling them to ensure safe skies above India. Defence Minister Parrikar, his Babus and even Prime Minister Modi is not going to know the role and the capabilities that the MMRCA is expected to perform in the IAF. That is not their job. That is the IAF's job. I am not absolving the govt of her role. Saint Anthony has to be tried in a court of law for treason against the state. But that is a different discussion.

As per the IAF, the Tejas Mk.1 is deficient in the 46 areas (maybe less or more, someone please provide the exact number) and they will only accept the Tejas Mk.2. When that comes out, the IAF will whine some more and point out more deficiencies and wait for Tejas Mk.3. At this rate, by the time the aircraft will meet (if ever) the IAF's exacting standards...it will be well past obsolete.

Now take a look at the PAF. Does the JF-17 meet all the expectations of the PAF? Absolutely not. But from ACM Sohail Aman and below, they all repeat this one mantra - JF-17 is our destiny. See the link below from 11:53

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZthdDd1Qj6A

Inshallah, I long to wait to hear those words from an IAF Chief about the Tejas. See the difference in attitude? And that attitude also spills into her induction into the PAF. Block 1 has been inducted in a couple of squadrons, Block 2 I believe will be in production soon and Block 3 is already on the drawing boards as per some sources. Each block improves upon the latter.

But we will waste $6 - $7 billion buying shiny, new Rafales without any problem. Cost be damned, squadron strength be damned, securing India's skies be damned. We are SDREs. We love everything phoren. Phoren aircraft, phoren tanks, phoren (preferably white and definitely blonde) women....the list never ends. Regardless that the desi Tejas Mk.1 is better than the MiG-21 Bison and early model F-16s and that the desi Arjun tank is better than any Russian tin can. Mera Bharat Mahan!

P.S. There is a Plan B, but the IAF has blinders and stubbornly refuses to entertain it.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 18 Jul 2015 03:48

svinayak wrote:
johneeG wrote:
Even if Pakistan vanishes from the face of the earth, China & US can easily create another opponent to Bhaarath by gifting some weapons to Nepal or Sri Lanka or Bangladhesh.

So, in essence, Bhaarath has to build so many weapon systems that US or China or Russia cannot prop up any small player against us. Otherwise, any x, y or z country will be propped up on some pretext or the other. And we will forever be struck in importing from the same US, china or Russia(because they are the only ones with robust MIC).
This is first basic geo politics 101.
India also needs a propaganda media

More like lack of basic common sense 101. Why would China & the US wait till Pakistan vanishes of the face of the earth ? They could prop Sri Lanka or Bangladesh today. No other country apart from Pakistan & China has any interest in countering India. Bangladesh has never sought to arm itself to the point where it could stand an invasion by India, let alone invade India. Bangladesh's GDP is USD 497 Billion for a population of around 156 million. Pakistan has a GDP of ~ USD 250 billion for a population of 180 million. Talk of propping up Sri Lanka is comical. Given how OT this is, my last post on this.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jul 2015 03:52

the 36 aircraft deal also had offsets. Looks like its stuck here.
French don't want the business.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jul 2015 04:13

Dassault can afford to be arrogant. Until the IAF down selected the Rafale, I never expected to see her flying in another nation's colours. However, Egypt beat us to it. The late 90s and 2000s are filled with missed opportunities for the Rafale. However, today the Rafale no longer carries the moniker of being a one-trick-pony. Dassault has nothing to lose...they already have two confirmed export orders. UAE will come soon. They know this and will squeeze us hard.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jul 2015 04:26

As per wiki, 15 new build Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s were ordered in 2000 and the last was delivered in 2007. Also as per wiki, deliveries of the 12 Qatari Mirage 2000-5 started in 1997. That is 27 aircraft and if we get them, we can add to the three squadrons (~50) already in service. While the numbers may be paltry, the capabilities offered are definitely not. Greece has another 10 Mirage 2000s upgraded to the Mk.2 standard. Our first Mirage 2000s arrived in the 80s and they are being upgraded to the Mk.2 standard now. Speaks volumes of the build quality and low stress on the airframes due to the delta design. Also hell of a lot cheaper than buy 36 brand new Rafales.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 18 Jul 2015 04:48

^^^ Admiral, with due respect this kabadiwala (scavanger) approach hits on india-genious products first. Supporting it does not kill the RayfailBan super polarised sunglasses, just the corner chashma dukaan. Even a second hand toyota imported from gulf will be considered better than domestic ambassador.

If you want a second version TATA nano, then you have to put up with at least one generation of ambassadors, premiers and standards.

If you want an air show force, be the global kabadiwala. If you want an air force, kill any second hand buy thoughts at inception। All it does is line a few more pockets.

There is no benefit to upgrading the mirages. Build new MKIs at home, sort out their availability issues. Reduce this menagerie of half a dozen types to three. MKI, the AMCA (29,2000 class) and LCA in bulk.

A 1000 planes up in the air on day 1 is the only thing that is impressive to an adversary. 36 this or 27 that dont change, as the state department says, "balance of forces". And on day 1, half of these will be missing tyres, guns, armament, and so on. No to mention attrition.

There is only one reason NOW for buying second hand -- corruption. Otherwise, let the squadrons drop where they will, until both air force, HAL and ADA start questioning the rationale for their own existence.

Strategic systems (the flagship with 70k? km replaced cables you command) make a case. A plane? C17, P8, IL76? M2000 or Rayfail? NO. A tank? NO. A truck? Bicycle? Light bulb? Sewing needle? See. The slope is slippery.

It is tempting. So was the Vik. There is justification for Vik. There isnt any for pretty much anything else. The rest is all hawala bin Natasha dance.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 18 Jul 2015 04:49

Rakesh wrote:As per wiki, 15 new build Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s were ordered in 2000 and the last was delivered in 2007. Also as per wiki, deliveries of the 12 Qatari Mirage 2000-5 started in 1997. That is 27 aircraft and if we get them, we can add to the three squadrons (~50) already in service. While the numbers may be paltry, the capabilities offered are definitely not. Greece has another 10 Mirage 2000s upgraded to the Mk.2 standard. Our first Mirage 2000s arrived in the 80s and they are being upgraded to the Mk.2 standard now. Speaks volumes of the build quality and low stress on the airframes due to the delta design. Also hell of a lot cheaper than buy 36 brand new Rafales.

I see this proposal again and again. Do Qatar & Greece want to sell their stuff?

A better option is for IAF to invade Qatar & Greece & take their Mirages. A mirage indeed!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jul 2015 04:55

Yes, Qatar was willing to see her Mirage 2000s to us in the mid-2000s. However we balked at the cost back then, saying they were way too expensive. But now it appears the cost of the Rafale is of little concern, because there is no Plan B

The only link I can find is below;

India again looking at Qatari Mirage fighters
http://teleradproviders.com/nbn/story.php?id=MTM3MjY=

As for Greece, make an offer. What is the harm in asking considering that Greece is begging again, for the third time. Google hellenic military debt crisis and you will read some interesting articles

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jul 2015 05:06

This is what happens when you refuse to entertain Plan B.

54 Jets Set to Be Scrapped, Air Force Looks to Cannibalize on its Squadrons
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/54-jets- ... ons-774920

"We will have to pull out about 50 odd aircrafts from other squadrons and make up 3 squadrons," a senior Air Force officer told NDTV.The flip side will be that it will reduce the operational strength and therefore the fire power of the squadrons.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 18 Jul 2015 05:07

Rakesh wrote:Here we go again Neither side has learned from the previous episode. Someone has to budge.

Indian Rafale talks hit offset snag
http://www.janes.com/article/52553/indi ... ffset-snag

This demonstrates (if true) that Dassault thinks it has both the GoI and GoF over a barrel. I can understand that local production with 'ToT' might cost more. I find that that the same argument with offsets much harder to understand. Mind you, this is a report that could be a plant so take with grain of salt.

To this day, I still don't understand why India needs such an expensive gap filler. The IAF brass might because they battle for budgets. But in terms of capability that deters an enemy? 4G and even 5G a/c pale in comparison to the SSGN

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... f-u-s-ties

Imagine Arihant x Borei with 154 Nirbhay turning up off the coast....

And it's within our own skill set.

That is deterrence. Not a few dozen 4/5 G a/c delivering bombs and dog fighting.