Should we discontinue EVMs?
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Should the EC of India be considered Indian or foreign?
-
- BRFite
- Posts: 1252
- Joined: 11 Mar 2008 19:07
- Location: Fishing in Sadhanakere
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Researchers being persecuted for exposing truth behind EVM
EVM should be renamed to EVSM--Electronic Vote Stealing Machine
Researcher arrested, can’t name official who gave him EVM: police http://www.indianexpress.com/news/resea ... e/663654/0
The managing director of a technology firm, detained in Hyderabad by a team from the MRA Marg police station for the alleged theft of an electronic voting machine on Saturday morning, was brought to the city on Sunday, arrested and remanded in police custody till August 26.
Hari Prasad is a technical coordinator with VeTA (Verifiability, Transparency and Accountability), a national-level citizen’s forum that deals with elections. The machine he allegedly stole had been the subject of a study a few months ago by Prasad and a researcher each from the US and Netherlands; the three had co-authored a paper on the security aspects of EVMs.
“We have sought remand on the grounds that we are yet to recover the EVM that Prasad had stolen from the Mumbai Collector’s office. Prasad has claimed he was handed over the machine by a local official some months ago for research. However, Prasad claims he does not remember his name and we have to probe that angle too,” assistant police inspector Ravindra Wani said.
Prasad was picked up from his Hyderabad home on Saturday morning after the Mumbai Collector’s office lodged a complaint that the EVM had been stolen from the godown in May.
Narsimha Rao, president of VeTA, alleged Prasad has been framed. “It was Prasad’s decision not to apply for anticipatory bail but court arrest. We are in talks with lawyers. We might apply for bail on Monday or wait till the remand is over. It is evident the arrest was a means to harass and intimidate us,” Rao said.
Rao said they had been alleging EVMs are vulnerable to fraud and the Election Commission challenged them to demonstrate how. Last August, Prasad and others were called to inspect the machines and try to hack them, but the Commission stalled the inspection, Rao said. In February, he added, a local official offered Prasad an EVM for research.
Prasad, University of Michigan computer science professor Alex Halderman and security officer Rop Gonggrijp of the Netherlands had also prepared a demonstration of their findings; this will be presented in a security conference in Chicago next month, said Rao.
Man arrested for stealing EVM after TV demo http://www.mumbaimirror.com/article/2/2 ... -demo.html
However, BJP says govt should applaud his exposé on how the machine is fallible and can be tampered with
The MRA Marg police on Sunday arrested a technologist and technical coordinator of a leading institute for allegedly stealing an electronic voting machine (EVM) and tampering with it. Hari Prasad Murli Mohan Vehmur, 42, the accused from Hyderabad, had appeared on television on July 28 and demonstrated how EVMs can be tampered with.
Following the TV report, the City Collector lodged a complaint with the MRA Marg asking how the EVM was stolen from the Customs House in Mumbai where the entire lot was kept after the elections.
An officer from MRA Marg Police Station said that a government servant and an activist had helped Prasad get the EVM from Customs House. “Prasad has revealed the involvement of Nashik ex-mayor’s husband in the act. We are investigating the matter,” the officer said. However, the BJP seems to be unhappy with Prasad’s arrest.
“The government should applaud him and also initiate an inquiry into the recent elections instead of arresting him,” said Dr Kirit Somaiya, national secretary, BJP. Soon after their defeat in the Maharashtra Assembly elections, BJP leaders had demanded reintroduction of ballot papers, claiming that the EVMs could be easily tampered with.
Prasad has been booked under Section 454 of the Indian Penal Code (lurking house-trespass or house-breaking in order to commit offence punishable with imprisonment), 457 (Lurking house trespass or house-breaking by night in order to commit offence punishable with imprisonment) and 380 (Theft in dwelling house). He has been remanded in police custody till August 26th.
Man held for stealing EVM from Mumbai godown http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_m ... wn_1427296
The MRA Marg police on Saturday arrested a man from Hyderabad for allegedly stealing and tampering with an electronic voting machine (EVM) from Mumbai, earlier this year.
The arrested person has been identified as Hari Krishna Prasad Murli Mohan Waimuru,who runs Netcom India Private Limited, a company in Hyderabad.
According to the police, in April, an EVM (E-131812) was stolen from godown number 21 in Old Customs House at Shahid Bhagat Singh Road, Fort. A police complaint regarding this was registered by Idzes Kundan from the collector’s office.
The police said that on April 28, in a show on a private television channel in Hyderabad, Waimuru demonstrated that the EVM machine can be tampered with. Experts from foreign countries too participated in the show.
“Waimuru claimed that through tampering, voting and results can be affected and political parties can take advantage of this. The serial number of the EVM machine used by Waimuru revealed that the machine was the one stolen from the Old Customs House godown,” said an officer from MRA Marg police station, on condition of anonymity.
A police team was then sent to Hyderabad. The team visited the office of the TV channel at Banjara Hills. “On inquiring with the officials there, it was learnt that Waimuru brought the machine himself and the channel had nothing to do with it. It was also learnt that Waimuru had gone to Nashik earlier this year. He met a local leader and a social activist there who gave him the machine. Moreover, it came to light that a government official believed to be working in the Old Customs House had given the said machine to the local leader,” added official said.
Waimuru was arrested by the police from Hyderabad. He has been remanded in police custody till August 26. “We are investigating as to how the machine was stolen from here and it landed in Hyderabad. We are also investigating whether Waimuru is a whistle blower or has any vested interest in doing this act,” said the officer
Man who 'stole' EVM in Mumbai held in Hyderabad http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 398910.cms
MUMBAI: A Hyderabad-based `whistle-blower' who claimed that Electronic Voting Machines used in elections are faulty and can be tampered with, was arrested by the MRA Marg police on Saturday.
The arrested accused has been identified as Hari Krishna Prasad Murli Mohan Waimuru (42), who runs a company called Netcom India Private Limited in Hyderabad, is stuck in a legal battle with the election commission over his claim. The matter is still pending in a Hyderabad court. Waimuru was arrested from Hyderabad in connection with the theft of a EMV machine that was stolen from the collector's office in Mumbai.
According to the police, in April this year, the collector's office in city had filed a complaint that EVM serial number E-131812 was stolen from Old Custom House in Fort. Investigating officer S Vani of the MRA Marg police said that on April 28 this year, a news channel telecasted a sting operation in Hyderabad wherein Waimuru had given a demonstration of the EVM machine, claiming that it can be tampered with. Foreign experts also participated in the show.
Waimuru said that votes and results can be tampered with. According to him, any political party can take advantage of this. Waimuru brought an EVM machine on the show. "The serial number of the said machine was displayed on TV. A machine with the same serial number was stolen from the Old Custom House godown,'' said an official from MRA Marg police station.
"Our team went to Hyderabad and visited the office of the said channel at Banjara Hills. On making inquiries with channel officials, we found out that Waimuru had the machine and the channel only aired his views on the show,'' said Sanjay Kokil, senior inspector of MRA Marg police.
A police team on Friday traced Waimuru to Hyderabad and arrested him. He has been remanded to police custody till August 26. "We are investigating how the machine was stolen from here and how it landed in Hyderabad. We are also probing whether Waimuru was a whistle-blower or if had any vested interest in the act,'' said Wani.

EVM should be renamed to EVSM--Electronic Vote Stealing Machine
Researcher arrested, can’t name official who gave him EVM: police http://www.indianexpress.com/news/resea ... e/663654/0
The managing director of a technology firm, detained in Hyderabad by a team from the MRA Marg police station for the alleged theft of an electronic voting machine on Saturday morning, was brought to the city on Sunday, arrested and remanded in police custody till August 26.
Hari Prasad is a technical coordinator with VeTA (Verifiability, Transparency and Accountability), a national-level citizen’s forum that deals with elections. The machine he allegedly stole had been the subject of a study a few months ago by Prasad and a researcher each from the US and Netherlands; the three had co-authored a paper on the security aspects of EVMs.
“We have sought remand on the grounds that we are yet to recover the EVM that Prasad had stolen from the Mumbai Collector’s office. Prasad has claimed he was handed over the machine by a local official some months ago for research. However, Prasad claims he does not remember his name and we have to probe that angle too,” assistant police inspector Ravindra Wani said.
Prasad was picked up from his Hyderabad home on Saturday morning after the Mumbai Collector’s office lodged a complaint that the EVM had been stolen from the godown in May.
Narsimha Rao, president of VeTA, alleged Prasad has been framed. “It was Prasad’s decision not to apply for anticipatory bail but court arrest. We are in talks with lawyers. We might apply for bail on Monday or wait till the remand is over. It is evident the arrest was a means to harass and intimidate us,” Rao said.
Rao said they had been alleging EVMs are vulnerable to fraud and the Election Commission challenged them to demonstrate how. Last August, Prasad and others were called to inspect the machines and try to hack them, but the Commission stalled the inspection, Rao said. In February, he added, a local official offered Prasad an EVM for research.
Prasad, University of Michigan computer science professor Alex Halderman and security officer Rop Gonggrijp of the Netherlands had also prepared a demonstration of their findings; this will be presented in a security conference in Chicago next month, said Rao.
Man arrested for stealing EVM after TV demo http://www.mumbaimirror.com/article/2/2 ... -demo.html
However, BJP says govt should applaud his exposé on how the machine is fallible and can be tampered with
The MRA Marg police on Sunday arrested a technologist and technical coordinator of a leading institute for allegedly stealing an electronic voting machine (EVM) and tampering with it. Hari Prasad Murli Mohan Vehmur, 42, the accused from Hyderabad, had appeared on television on July 28 and demonstrated how EVMs can be tampered with.
Following the TV report, the City Collector lodged a complaint with the MRA Marg asking how the EVM was stolen from the Customs House in Mumbai where the entire lot was kept after the elections.
An officer from MRA Marg Police Station said that a government servant and an activist had helped Prasad get the EVM from Customs House. “Prasad has revealed the involvement of Nashik ex-mayor’s husband in the act. We are investigating the matter,” the officer said. However, the BJP seems to be unhappy with Prasad’s arrest.
“The government should applaud him and also initiate an inquiry into the recent elections instead of arresting him,” said Dr Kirit Somaiya, national secretary, BJP. Soon after their defeat in the Maharashtra Assembly elections, BJP leaders had demanded reintroduction of ballot papers, claiming that the EVMs could be easily tampered with.
Prasad has been booked under Section 454 of the Indian Penal Code (lurking house-trespass or house-breaking in order to commit offence punishable with imprisonment), 457 (Lurking house trespass or house-breaking by night in order to commit offence punishable with imprisonment) and 380 (Theft in dwelling house). He has been remanded in police custody till August 26th.
Man held for stealing EVM from Mumbai godown http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_m ... wn_1427296
The MRA Marg police on Saturday arrested a man from Hyderabad for allegedly stealing and tampering with an electronic voting machine (EVM) from Mumbai, earlier this year.
The arrested person has been identified as Hari Krishna Prasad Murli Mohan Waimuru,who runs Netcom India Private Limited, a company in Hyderabad.
According to the police, in April, an EVM (E-131812) was stolen from godown number 21 in Old Customs House at Shahid Bhagat Singh Road, Fort. A police complaint regarding this was registered by Idzes Kundan from the collector’s office.
The police said that on April 28, in a show on a private television channel in Hyderabad, Waimuru demonstrated that the EVM machine can be tampered with. Experts from foreign countries too participated in the show.
“Waimuru claimed that through tampering, voting and results can be affected and political parties can take advantage of this. The serial number of the EVM machine used by Waimuru revealed that the machine was the one stolen from the Old Customs House godown,” said an officer from MRA Marg police station, on condition of anonymity.
A police team was then sent to Hyderabad. The team visited the office of the TV channel at Banjara Hills. “On inquiring with the officials there, it was learnt that Waimuru brought the machine himself and the channel had nothing to do with it. It was also learnt that Waimuru had gone to Nashik earlier this year. He met a local leader and a social activist there who gave him the machine. Moreover, it came to light that a government official believed to be working in the Old Customs House had given the said machine to the local leader,” added official said.
Waimuru was arrested by the police from Hyderabad. He has been remanded in police custody till August 26. “We are investigating as to how the machine was stolen from here and it landed in Hyderabad. We are also investigating whether Waimuru is a whistle blower or has any vested interest in doing this act,” said the officer
Man who 'stole' EVM in Mumbai held in Hyderabad http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 398910.cms
MUMBAI: A Hyderabad-based `whistle-blower' who claimed that Electronic Voting Machines used in elections are faulty and can be tampered with, was arrested by the MRA Marg police on Saturday.
The arrested accused has been identified as Hari Krishna Prasad Murli Mohan Waimuru (42), who runs a company called Netcom India Private Limited in Hyderabad, is stuck in a legal battle with the election commission over his claim. The matter is still pending in a Hyderabad court. Waimuru was arrested from Hyderabad in connection with the theft of a EMV machine that was stolen from the collector's office in Mumbai.
According to the police, in April this year, the collector's office in city had filed a complaint that EVM serial number E-131812 was stolen from Old Custom House in Fort. Investigating officer S Vani of the MRA Marg police said that on April 28 this year, a news channel telecasted a sting operation in Hyderabad wherein Waimuru had given a demonstration of the EVM machine, claiming that it can be tampered with. Foreign experts also participated in the show.
Waimuru said that votes and results can be tampered with. According to him, any political party can take advantage of this. Waimuru brought an EVM machine on the show. "The serial number of the said machine was displayed on TV. A machine with the same serial number was stolen from the Old Custom House godown,'' said an official from MRA Marg police station.
"Our team went to Hyderabad and visited the office of the said channel at Banjara Hills. On making inquiries with channel officials, we found out that Waimuru had the machine and the channel only aired his views on the show,'' said Sanjay Kokil, senior inspector of MRA Marg police.
A police team on Friday traced Waimuru to Hyderabad and arrested him. He has been remanded to police custody till August 26. "We are investigating how the machine was stolen from here and how it landed in Hyderabad. We are also probing whether Waimuru was a whistle-blower or if had any vested interest in the act,'' said Wani.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
More on arrest of EVM-fraud researcher:
The “Ugly face” of the ECI: Arrest of Hari Prasad for “sting demonstration”
The “Ugly face” of the ECI: Arrest of Hari Prasad for “sting demonstration”
To call the ECI’s bluff, Hari Prasad and team have demonstrated the tamperability of EVMs on an EVM made available to them. This is like a sting operation carried out by media organizations. If the stings done by media are a legitimate method of information gathering, so is this sting demonstration. There cannot be separate standards for separate groups. In both cases, public interest is paramount. Moreover, the world over this is the practice followed by security researchers to expose vulnerabilities of absurd claims of “perfect” and “tamper proof” electronic voting systems. The details of this sting demonstration are available at www.indiaEVM.org
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Beware the Man Behind the Curtain
Prasad Alleges Police Being Pressured from Above to Arrest Him:
He says that the police were pressing him for the name of the person who got him the EVM machine, and that if he exposes the name then he would not be arrested. Naturally, he declined.
Prasad Alleges Police Being Pressured from Above to Arrest Him:
He says that the police were pressing him for the name of the person who got him the EVM machine, and that if he exposes the name then he would not be arrested. Naturally, he declined.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Footage of Hari Prasad Being Taken Into Custody by Mumbai Police:
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
By the way this Hari Prasad is a BR member and posted details and had a technical conversation with other jingoes here.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Hari Prasad's arrest gets on Engadget:
E-voting whistleblower Hari Prasad arrested, taken to Mumbai for questioning
Glad to see it getting enough publicity internationally and hope it leads to his release quickly.
E-voting whistleblower Hari Prasad arrested, taken to Mumbai for questioning
Glad to see it getting enough publicity internationally and hope it leads to his release quickly.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
This was his last post. All other allegations belong to one type and this person has proved really and hence he is arrested. I am also a jingo like every other EVM supporter on this forum.vhkprasad on 04 May 2010, 08:20 wrote: I support secure EVMs with verifiability, Present EVMs doesn't meet the requirements and they need to be improved, Paper ballot is cumbersome but voting needs verifiability not trust. I love to see the day where electronic voting is accepted and understood by a common citizen.
This is like Emergency-days type operation. A person who stood for democracy was arrested and why the government needs to do this if they have nothing to hide. I repeat another time the 2009 election is a real stolen election. They used the methodology that Prasad has shown in about 2800 boothsacross the nation to steal the election. They identified the 2800 booths by means of couple of US based surveying agencies viz as Nielsen etc. and IB surveying.
-
- BRFite
- Posts: 951
- Joined: 08 Nov 2007 00:51
- Location: Jeering sekular forces bhile Furiously malishing my mijjile @ Led Lips Mijjile Malish Palish Parloul
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Any idea about how would the results have been if the EVMs were not tampered?
-
- BRFite
- Posts: 1392
- Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
- Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
I agree short of a massive wave nothing can defeat such a selective sabotage in a few booths. I was really aloof to the EVM debate but this dastardly and draconian arrest has made my suspicion-o-meter twitch like hell. Hmmm...Muppalla wrote:They used the methodology that Prasad has shown in about 2800 boothsacross the nation to steal the election. They identified the 2800 booths by means of couple of US based surveying agencies viz as Nielsen etc. and IB surveying.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Probably closer i.e. more expensive for INC in cobbling together a coalition.derkonig wrote:Any idea about how would the results have been if the EVMs were not tampered?
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
There are reasons to be cautious that any "expert" may be pursuing a hidden agenda - but still, there are a number of credible activists in West who have had significant successes - such as getting EVMs banned in Germany.Acharya wrote:Why are foreign countries interested in Indian EVMsPranav wrote:The letter given below was send after a panel discussion on Indian EVMs held at USENIX conference on Aug 9th, 2010 at Washington DC, USA. For additional information, contact Alex Halderman, [email protected], 609-558-2312.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Wired Magazine coverage: Researcher Arrested in India After Disclosing Problems With Voting Machines - http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/0 ... -in-india/
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Exactly what is the hidden agenda of critiquing the integrity of voting machines?
When hidden agendas are hinted at without clarification, it merely amounts to muddying the waters - and that would likely be the goal of INC rulers.
When hidden agendas are hinted at without clarification, it merely amounts to muddying the waters - and that would likely be the goal of INC rulers.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Well, some "experts" suggest "security improvements" which still allow rigging, while placating the masses. Their motives can be questioned.Sanjay M wrote:Exactly what is the hidden agenda of critiquing the integrity of voting machines?
When hidden agendas are hinted at without clarification, it merely amounts to muddying the waters - and that would likely be the goal of INC rulers.
Printing votes on a roll of paper which stays inside the EVM is one such dubious "improvement".
-
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 5891
- Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
- Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
The following are the pointers I gave to Mr. Prasad, before he went to the USA conference. Since his arrest changes the whole hope of CEC co-operating with the technical community (where myself, and AFAIK, Mr. Prasad belong), I am putting them here.
1. Permanent key timestamps. A single chip device, with a controller and a large, erase inhibited flash area could be used. The controller would generate timestamps (reset on power down, counting up thereafter), which would be recorded with event messages sent by the main controller. Once it is full, the EVM should be recycled.
2. Conformal coating: The board shall be conformal coated using a suitable epoxy. The memory devices shall be potted with clear epoxy.
3. Remove all plug-in connectors, and replace with solder-in connectors
4. Weld seal the enclosure, with a serial number and security pattern, so that opening the inner enclosure would damage and render it non-reusable.
1. Permanent key timestamps. A single chip device, with a controller and a large, erase inhibited flash area could be used. The controller would generate timestamps (reset on power down, counting up thereafter), which would be recorded with event messages sent by the main controller. Once it is full, the EVM should be recycled.
2. Conformal coating: The board shall be conformal coated using a suitable epoxy. The memory devices shall be potted with clear epoxy.
3. Remove all plug-in connectors, and replace with solder-in connectors
4. Weld seal the enclosure, with a serial number and security pattern, so that opening the inner enclosure would damage and render it non-reusable.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
It is not necessary to suggest solutions in order to credibly point out glaring flaws.Pranav wrote:Well, some "experts" suggest "security improvements" which still allow rigging, while placating the masses. Their motives can be questioned.
Printing votes on a roll of paper which stays inside the EVM is one such dubious "improvement".
I don't see that Hari Prasad's video demonstration of tamperability had advocated specific types of solutions.
Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201
US experts say Indian EVMs not tamper-proof
Since I am not permitted on this board to say what kind of country we really are, I must say that we are maximum 100% A1 well-functioning country onlee!
As Hari Prasad has shown us, criticism of the system is bad, and only amounts to "baiting" trouble.
Since I am not permitted on this board to say what kind of country we really are, I must say that we are maximum 100% A1 well-functioning country onlee!

As Hari Prasad has shown us, criticism of the system is bad, and only amounts to "baiting" trouble.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
This is fundamentally not the direction in which one should be thinking.Dileep wrote:The following are the pointers I gave to Mr. Prasad, before he went to the USA conference. Since his arrest changes the whole hope of CEC co-operating with the technical community (where myself, and AFAIK, Mr. Prasad belong), I am putting them here.
1. Permanent key timestamps. A single chip device, with a controller and a large, erase inhibited flash area could be used. The controller would generate timestamps (reset on power down, counting up thereafter), which would be recorded with event messages sent by the main controller. Once it is full, the EVM should be recycled.
2. Conformal coating: The board shall be conformal coated using a suitable epoxy. The memory devices shall be potted with clear epoxy.
3. Remove all plug-in connectors, and replace with solder-in connectors
4. Weld seal the enclosure, with a serial number and security pattern, so that opening the inner enclosure would damage and render it non-reusable.
If you put crooks in charge of writing the code, fabricating the chips, and assembling it, as we are doing now, it WILL be rigged.
Last edited by Pranav on 24 Aug 2010 18:55, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Quite true. I was not talking about Hari Prasad, whose work so far has been extremely valuable.Sanjay M wrote: It is not necessary to suggest solutions in order to credibly point out glaring flaws.
I don't see that Hari Prasad's video demonstration of tamperability had advocated specific types of solutions.
Acharya was cautioning about foreign experts. I am just saying that there are foreign experts and activists who have done really good work (although one should not assume that all "experts" are necessarily well-intentioned).
-
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 5891
- Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
- Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
NONE of those allegations are proven. In fact, the team that did the hacking never alleged it.Pranav wrote: This is fundamentally not the direction in which one should be thinking.
If you put crooks in charge of writing the code, fabricating the chips, and assembling it, as we are doing now, it WILL be rigged.
That is why I want to differentiate between the political activists (like GVLN Rao, and even yourself) who claim all kinds of far fetched notions, and the technical people (like Mr. Prasad, and even myself).
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
The newer model EVMs have a timestamping feature, but by themselves timestamps mean nothing. The data has to be extracted and analyzed to detect any mischief prior to using the results from the EVM.Dileep wrote:1. Permanent key timestamps. A single chip device, with a controller and a large, erase inhibited flash area could be used. The controller would generate timestamps (reset on power down, counting up thereafter), which would be recorded with event messages sent by the main controller. Once it is full, the EVM should be recycled.
-
- BRFite
- Posts: 1392
- Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
- Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
This is the main problem that exists regarding the veracity of EVMs. In a open and majoritarian setup of electing representatives the lowest common denominators ie totally non-technical people should come to understand the process of gathering votes and non-fudgability of the same. When I read the previous debates of R Mehta and rest of the folks there was nothing but plain condescension and derogation masked under the garb of knowledge at display.Dileep wrote:That is why I want to differentiate between the political activists (like GVLN Rao, and even yourself) who claim all kinds of far fetched notions, and the technical people (like Mr. Prasad, and even myself).
Pray if a political activist (even if agenda driven, everyone has one, even those professing not having it) is not satisfied with a process and disputes credibility of the same then the only way of doing that is to institute simple features of verification understood by ALL and not some supermotherboardtimstamp-datacodumatiutkrishtam technology that is best understood by folks in Ity-Vity or those with some interest in technology or even bare basic IQ levels (grant it majority of India is unwashed non-graduate horde).
A democracy means everything is political and nothing is holy and none can claim to be apolitical. As Shiv-ji says if god intended India to be apolitical then India would have been Soviet Union.
Our electoral process is coming under shadow of doubt and the recent move/results in AP bye-elections indicate the faith in the current process by political parties. For good or for bad these black-boxes have to go. If it takes a B-Tech or six months of extensive reading to understand voting mechanism of my nation then we are better off without it.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Sure, its not proven that Sonia or Tytler or Navin Chawla or Kalmadi are criminals.Dileep wrote:NONE of those allegations are proven. In fact, the team that did the hacking never alleged it.Pranav wrote: This is fundamentally not the direction in which one should be thinking.
If you put crooks in charge of writing the code, fabricating the chips, and assembling it, as we are doing now, it WILL be rigged.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
The lengths to which the the UPA scam-filled Govt and the EC are going in hunting people who are opposing the EVMs, there is a total fraud going on. I think this is dangerous and despotic. We don't need any more proof than just to look at this arrest and determine that this scam artists are the most dangerous force to destroy democracy. We have to identify and expose these scoundrels. I am sure the bought-out media crooks will extend their support to scam artists and will prevent the truth from coming out.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
I agree with munna - the veracity issue for EVMs is well known across the world from past experience, and is very obviously self-evident.
That the EC can't bring themselves to acknowledge what can plainly be seen like the nose on the face, by everyone around the world, indicates a lack of basic understanding by the EC, and a lack of qualification of the relevant officials.
Verification is fundamental. You can't put your trust in some magical enigmatic process that doesn't allow you to verify it - the very idea is folly. Verification is key to credibility and public trust. The very fact that EC won't allow outsiders to examine their machines tells me that they don't want to put themselves up for scrutiny by the masses - most likely because they have little confidence in themselves.
That the EC can't bring themselves to acknowledge what can plainly be seen like the nose on the face, by everyone around the world, indicates a lack of basic understanding by the EC, and a lack of qualification of the relevant officials.
Verification is fundamental. You can't put your trust in some magical enigmatic process that doesn't allow you to verify it - the very idea is folly. Verification is key to credibility and public trust. The very fact that EC won't allow outsiders to examine their machines tells me that they don't want to put themselves up for scrutiny by the masses - most likely because they have little confidence in themselves.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Which one of them is personally coding, fabricating and sealing the said EVMs? I fully agree with Dileep - most of the EVM nay-sayers seem to be more interested in muddying the waters and rabble-rousing while bringing in everything under the sun except technical objections to the debate. Only a few like Shri Prasad are actually sincere enough to thoroughly analyze the problems in a scientific manner and attempt to find solutions (instead of advocating blinkered our-way-or-the-highway approaches I see being bandied about). Unfortunately due to the infinite idiocy of our baboo(n)s and GoI, it has come to pass that people like him who are genuinely trying to fix the issues are the ones getting arrested and treated like criminals. Shameful indeed.Pranav wrote:Sure, its not proven that Sonia or Tytler or Navin Chawla or Kalmadi are criminals.Dileep wrote: NONE of those allegations are proven. In fact, the team that did the hacking never alleged it.
-
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 9374
- Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
- Location: University of Trantor
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
munna bhai,
very well put. +1 only.This is the main problem that exists regarding the veracity of EVMs. In a open and majoritarian setup of electing representatives the lowest common denominators ie totally non-technical people should come to understand the process of gathering votes and non-fudgability of the same.
...
Pray if a political activist (even if agenda driven, everyone has one, even those professing not having it) is not satisfied with a process and disputes credibility of the same then the only way of doing that is to institute simple features of verification understood by ALL and not some supermotherboardtimstamp-datacodumatiutkrishtam technology that is best understood by folks in Ity-Vity or those with some interest in technology or even bare basic IQ levels (grant it majority of India is unwashed non-graduate horde).
A democracy means everything is political and nothing is holy and none can claim to be apolitical.
-
- BRFite
- Posts: 1635
- Joined: 28 Mar 2007 18:27
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Once the genie of fraudulent tampering is out, the thuggery will not become a sole monopoly. Sooner or later, there will be breakdown of honor among the thieves. Initial advantage gained by the unscrupulous party will only attract unscrupulous elements. If unscrupulous elements make it they would know how to milk it and ransom the process. So the hold will be very flimsy and soon all parties will be joining the bandwagon in the orgy of fraud.munna wrote:I agree short of a massive wave nothing can defeat such a selective sabotage in a few booths. I was really aloof to the EVM debate but this dastardly and draconian arrest has made my suspicion-o-meter twitch like hell. Hmmm...Muppalla wrote:They used the methodology that Prasad has shown in about 2800 boothsacross the nation to steal the election. They identified the 2800 booths by means of couple of US based surveying agencies viz as Nielsen etc. and IB surveying.
So no worries; a couple of cycles of election won by fraudulent means indicates end of the line for the unscrupulous party. Sustained fraudulence by one single party is a tough feat. What is lamentable, is not that the elections turning to farce, but it consistently rigs the system to favor fraudsters and the worst and least qualified.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
I agree with munna ji (excellently put in a small post). We are unnecessarily blaming political activists. By blaming political activists, we are simply saying that EVMs are technical things and so all those who are non-technical to shutup.
The analogy is asking an illiterate farmer to shutup when he suspects adulteration in the fertilizer bag that is manufactured by an ISO9000002 fertilizer company. We could keep on and on arguing the various checks and balances of the fertilizer company and the automation from ground to packing the bag. In addition, we can also argue the process until the bag reaches the farmer's home.
The confidence of technical folks is equivalant to the character called Amatya Rakshash ( Amatya kartikeyan) in Chanakya serial. He is extremely confident that all is well in Magadh even when the proof is in front of him. He is very honest and hardworking person and well respected too but that does not mean magadh is not corrupt and the King is not scoundrel.
As long as there was no proof of tamperability, yes we could say the political activists' arguments are hot air. Now the cat is out of the bag and a relavent person has proved it.
Now extending the argument to "naah it is doable but impossble for the scale" etc. does not cut ice. There is no big scale in Indian electoral scene with a 1000 party system where most of their vote banks fixed. A small swing changes everything and to trigger small change if there is a way using EVMs then it is doable.
The political activists know the numbers game better and that is the reason for the suspicions. Why did we not see this scale of activism between 1999 and 2009? Several elections passed with EVMs and why 2009 only?
For a politician as he does not know all the tech, it is nothing wrong for him to ask for complete ban of EVMs because the EC is not ready to be transparent and not helping in anyway to give the required confidence level.
Now comes the classic criticism of the EC babus. This is another fun part as they are another set of scapegoats just like the political activists. The babus will do what their masters ask them to do. Entire election commissioners are political appointees. All others report to these appointees. For example PM wanted to give a chance to a babu from NE and so goes the next CEC. Now the hierarchy is pretty clear party in power ---> appointee babus ----> to all other EC babus.
Why do we blame the babus here? The entire transperence mess is created by one party that is INC and it is very clear everything is being orchestrated from rigging using the methods exposed by Hari Prasad and later coverup using muscle power. There are several things that are not being revealed:
(1) where the chips are manufactured ( no clarity regarding Hitachi or one from Canada or US). Even if it matters or not is not the point but it is important to know the tender process as we are talking about the election process of largest democracy.
(2) Several companies are involved in maintenance contracts. What are these companies? Names and owners please...
(3) Extended delay tactics by EC regarding giving an opportunity to Hari prasad's team
(4) Indrasen types coming on national television and repetitively patting themselves as GODs decended from somewhere. Blatant lies viz. as Hari Prasad was given an oppurtunity and he did not prove. the truth is he was not even give an EVM to tamper.
If the folks here cannot see such a clarity then they are all like "Amatya Rakshash". It needs humility to accept what is right.
The analogy is asking an illiterate farmer to shutup when he suspects adulteration in the fertilizer bag that is manufactured by an ISO9000002 fertilizer company. We could keep on and on arguing the various checks and balances of the fertilizer company and the automation from ground to packing the bag. In addition, we can also argue the process until the bag reaches the farmer's home.
The confidence of technical folks is equivalant to the character called Amatya Rakshash ( Amatya kartikeyan) in Chanakya serial. He is extremely confident that all is well in Magadh even when the proof is in front of him. He is very honest and hardworking person and well respected too but that does not mean magadh is not corrupt and the King is not scoundrel.
As long as there was no proof of tamperability, yes we could say the political activists' arguments are hot air. Now the cat is out of the bag and a relavent person has proved it.
Now extending the argument to "naah it is doable but impossble for the scale" etc. does not cut ice. There is no big scale in Indian electoral scene with a 1000 party system where most of their vote banks fixed. A small swing changes everything and to trigger small change if there is a way using EVMs then it is doable.
The political activists know the numbers game better and that is the reason for the suspicions. Why did we not see this scale of activism between 1999 and 2009? Several elections passed with EVMs and why 2009 only?
For a politician as he does not know all the tech, it is nothing wrong for him to ask for complete ban of EVMs because the EC is not ready to be transparent and not helping in anyway to give the required confidence level.
Now comes the classic criticism of the EC babus. This is another fun part as they are another set of scapegoats just like the political activists. The babus will do what their masters ask them to do. Entire election commissioners are political appointees. All others report to these appointees. For example PM wanted to give a chance to a babu from NE and so goes the next CEC. Now the hierarchy is pretty clear party in power ---> appointee babus ----> to all other EC babus.
Why do we blame the babus here? The entire transperence mess is created by one party that is INC and it is very clear everything is being orchestrated from rigging using the methods exposed by Hari Prasad and later coverup using muscle power. There are several things that are not being revealed:
(1) where the chips are manufactured ( no clarity regarding Hitachi or one from Canada or US). Even if it matters or not is not the point but it is important to know the tender process as we are talking about the election process of largest democracy.
(2) Several companies are involved in maintenance contracts. What are these companies? Names and owners please...
(3) Extended delay tactics by EC regarding giving an opportunity to Hari prasad's team
(4) Indrasen types coming on national television and repetitively patting themselves as GODs decended from somewhere. Blatant lies viz. as Hari Prasad was given an oppurtunity and he did not prove. the truth is he was not even give an EVM to tamper.
If the folks here cannot see such a clarity then they are all like "Amatya Rakshash". It needs humility to accept what is right.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Man with doubts on EVMs held, EC denies hand
Now tell me why should we even blame the babus? It is is clear that the decision came from more powerful.The Election Commission has termed as “patently false” the allegation that a Hyderabad based technical coordinator, who claimed that electronic voting machines could be tampered with, was arrested at the behest of the EC for allegedly stealing an EVM.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
They are at the apex of the criminal chain of command.Raja Bose wrote:Which one of them is personally coding, fabricating and sealing the said EVMs?Pranav wrote: Sure, its not proven that Sonia or Tytler or Navin Chawla or Kalmadi are criminals.
Sonia -> MMS, Navin Chawla, Cabinet Ministers -> PSU bosses -> programmers, foreign suppliers
Actually Sonia herself is probably only on the second rung, working for western elites. Her history of being on the payroll of foreign intelligence agencies is well documented.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
EVM could be reason why INC props/creates another party slightly opposing it but vehemently opposing the INC's opposition party. If manipulation is there, there is a beauty in manipulating opposition votes by tamper-voting for third party so in public eye third party cut the opposition votes giving INC victory.Muppalla wrote:There is no big scale in Indian electoral scene with a 1000 party system where most of their vote banks fixed. A small swing changes everything and to trigger small change if there is a way using EVMs then it is doable.
The political activists know the numbers game better and that is the reason for the suspicions. Why did we not see this scale of activism between 1999 and 2009? Several elections passed with EVMs and why 2009 only?
Somebody did some survey of TDP villages and found discrepancy of voting % in one of assembly constituencies. High number of MP seats and marginal number of MLA seats for INC in AP is suspect also. No wonder CBN is big supporter of Hari Prasad&co efforts as he doesn't have trust in Central EC
(in Telugu) Chandrababu slams Election Commission
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r26RuGcUn18
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
The EVMs could be selectively tampered by secondary powers. We get fooled by the all seeing "eye of Sauron" on the $ bill. In the end 'Cui bono?' will give us answers.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Hmm. Why the secondary powers needed INC government by MMS to be continued? Can't they milk the alternatives for the same.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Its confusing.
Has anyone seen the paper describing the EVM hacking possiblity? Also need to keep track of the Hari Prasad arrest.
Has anyone seen the paper describing the EVM hacking possiblity? Also need to keep track of the Hari Prasad arrest.
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
ReDiff interview:
Hari Prasad is a hero, Not a thief
A lot of people who are pro-govt are getting nervous with the drop of the mask to reveal the "Emergency" face.
Hari Prasad is a hero, Not a thief
A lot of people who are pro-govt are getting nervous with the drop of the mask to reveal the "Emergency" face.
Atleast the physical security of the machines are definitely lax. There seems to be no accountability or inventory control.What is your next course of action?
There is a legal team in place which will fight the case. We will go on to prove that Hari Prasad is innocent. The matter comes up in court on Thursday.
The main accusation is theft. The allegation is that one of the EVMs used for the demonstration was stolen. A machine was given to Hari Prasad to study temporarily. It was not done at the time of the elections. The EC had claimed that the machines were tamperproof at first.
Later they also told us that the machines are safe and cannot be accessed by anyone. If that is so then why did the Election Commission not realise for nearly five months that one of their machines was missing? Later when this was made public, they had no clue from where that machine was taken.
Only after they were shown the code did they realise that the machine belonged to Maharashtra and for quite some time they did not even know which godown it was stolen from. The worst part is that they do not even know who is responsible.
So you mean that anyone can walk in and steal a machine.
It is quite easy. None of these machines are sealed, when they are stored. You may not believe it, but these machines are guarded by a peon, who can be bribed at any time. Anyone can just walk under the guise of refurbishing the machine and tamper with it. You do not even need to do it a couple of days before the elections. It can be tampered with, well in advance and no one will know about it. That is the security of the EVM for you. Do you still feel that Hari Prasad did anything wrong in exposing such a weak system?
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
Op-Ed Pioneer, 26 August 2010
My guess that liberal folks are suddenly seeing the Emergency face can be validated by the ref to Shah Commission quote about Mr. Chawla and his role in those days.OPED | Thursday, August 26, 2010 | Email | Print | | Back
Democracy imperilled
Sandeep B
The arrest of Hari Prasad, a technologist whose research helped prove beyond doubt that Indian EVMs are vulnerable to fraud, sends out a dangerous signal: That anybody who challenges the Central Election Commission runs the danger of persecution and prosecution in our democracy
Voting and freedom in a democracy are inseparable. Voting stands right at the top as one of the important ways people exercise their freedom to choose who they want to entrust with running their lives. Voting is what gives a Government the authority to govern and this authority must ideally be based on virtuous principles. Those who vote perform their duty in the fullest sense when they thoroughly understand exactly what the person they’re voting for truly represents. While this is not true of an average voter anywhere in the world today, there are thousands of such well-aware voters.
Which is why the election process is sacrosanct in strong democracies. Which is also why the Election Commission of India is a quasi-judicial constitutional body with sweeping powers that are binding even on the President. Which is also why it is insulated from the executive. But in practice, it has been infected with the same decay of political meddling that plagues most institutions in this country.
A recent instance of this malaise is the arrest of Mr Hari Prasad, technical coordinator and a key resource person of an independent citizens’ forum, VeTA. The organisation describes its purpose as “promoting Verifiability, Transparency and Accountability in Indian elections”.
Mr Prasad is a technologist with expertise in electronic voting machines, now the de facto method of voting in Indian elections. He collaborated with a team headed by Mr Alex Halderman, a Computer Science professor at Michigan University and Mr Rop Gonggrijp, a security researcher from the Netherlands, on a project that involved detailed technical analysis of Indian EVMs. Their studies yielded conclusive, scientific proof that EVMs could easily be tampered with. They conducted several demonstrations across major Indian cities showing how EVMs could be rigged.
On August 17, 2009, the EC invited them for a similar demonstration and laid illogical conditions under which the demonstration was to be done. What followed is detailed in the lucid Democracy at Risk (GVL Narasimha Rao, VeTa), also available as a downloadable book in pdf format (http://www.indianevm.com).
Mr Halderman captures the sequence of events that followed after February 2010 “when an anonymous source approached Hari and offered a (EVM) machine for him to study. This source requested anonymity and we have honoured this request. We have every reason to believe that the source had lawful access to the machine and made it available for scientific study as a matter of conscience, out of concern over potential security problems.” The team used this EVM to demonstrate on a TV channel how it could easily be tampered with. In the first week of August, the police visited Mr Prasad and recorded a statement about this EVM he had used.
And then, suddenly on August 21, he was arrested on a bizarre charge — that of stealing an EVM from Maharashtra. In his text message, Mr Prasad says, “I am not worried or scared at all by these tricks from the EC. I came to know that because of tremendous pressure, police had no other option than to arrest me. Our new CEC is positive in resolving EVM vulnerabilities but it seems even he came under pressure to change his stance from what he promised us on August 10.”
The episode clearly reeks of intimidation by the EC or whoever directed the arrest. As Mr Rao’s book shows, the EC has been obstinate in its stand that EVMs are “foolproof”, “perfect” and “tamper-free” despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary across the world. Mr Halderman, Mr Prasad, et al have shown that by embedding a Bluetooth (wireless technology) device, it’s possible to manipulate the EVM using remote devices like a mobile phone.
The book painstakingly explains this and other methods of manipulation. Ideally, India should’ve followed suit — or ordered deeper inquiry — when the Netherlands, Germany, Italy and Ireland banned EVMs because they were “easy to falsify,” risked eavesdropping” and “lacked transparency”. What’s worse is that Indian EVMs leave no trail — there is no mechanism to track suspected election fraud.
The EC’s obstinacy thus defies reason. On one hand, the EC insists that EVMs are impregnable. So there should really be no reason to not let the researchers examine the machine. What or who is it scared of? Indeed, if it were transparent, it should’ve actually facilitated Mr Prasad and team to expose any vulnerability in the EVMs. That would’ve restored our faith in the health of our democratic institutions. Instead, Mr PV Indiresan issued an outlandish analogy equating a call for a scientific inquiry into EVMs with testing the chastity of Sita. This only helps deepen suspicions about foul play in the issue.
The UPA reached a new low in 2009 when it bulldozed the appointment of Mr Navin Chawla as Chief Election Commissioner who the Shah Commission report “declared as unfit to hold any public office which demands an attitude of fair play and consideration for others.” And now the arrest of Mr Prasad has again sent an ugly signal. Is it safe to conclude that ordinary citizens will be persecuted for seeking the truth? Ironically, on August 9, the Cabinet passed the Whistleblower Bill, but who should people turn to when the state’s institutions themselves begin to look like agents of intimidation? The current CEC, Mr SY Quraishi, must come clean immediately on this shameful affair. The country has a right to know whether the EC is a body of the Constitution or just an arm of a political party.
Tampering of EVMs is a serious issue with potential to shatter the foundations of democracy. The logical end of this will mean that only one party gets to wield power forever. If the voting process is subverted, it won’t be long before national interest will be equated with a particular political party’s interest — it harks back to a black era when “India was Indira”.
Mr Prasad’s arrest also shows how many of our fundamental freedoms are slowly being taken away without our knowledge. Equally, it’s ironical that the state is virtually powerless against a dangerous man like Abdul Nasser Madani but swoops down on an individual who asked uncomfortable questions concerning national interest.
However, it’s heartening to see the groundswell of support that has emerged across the country for Mr Prasad. Petitions, Internet groups, blogs and articles have strongly condemned the strong-arm tactics of the EC. VeTA has also indicated approaching the Supreme Court for a “renewed legal battle”. This news has already attracted international attention with people comparing this with the Florida EVM fiasco. It’s a huge blot on India’s image in the world, which regards our elections as reasonably “fair and free”. The EC needs to urgently show complete transparency with regard to this episode — admitting that the EVMs are flawed is not a personal insult to the EC.
This issue is in many ways a good test of the saying about eternal vigilance and is an opportunity to prove Ambrose Pierce wrong when he said that voting is “the instrument and symbol of a free man’s power to make a fool of himself and a wreck of his country.”
-
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 5891
- Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
- Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي
Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?
I did. http://indiaevm.org/evm_tr2010-jul29.pdframana wrote:Its confusing.
Has anyone seen the paper describing the EVM hacking possiblity? Also need to keep track of the Hari Prasad arrest.
I am in correspondence with Mr. Prasad, and I am keeping track of his quest.