Indian Army: News & Discussion

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 24 Jun 2010 17:22

Sanku ji.That is what I am saying.The gap between soldiers and officers is increasing as far as Indian Army is concerned.I am not making it up.The respect for officers is continuously declining.There are reasons for this.Lack of necessities is one of them.Army culture is another.Our army is extremely hierarchical in structure.The definition of discipline is very narrow that you have to obey your commanding officer blindly no matter what.This used to work in past when the majority of other ranks were not that educated and had very less exposure to the outside world.But now the scenario has changed.Today the education levels of other ranks has increased tremendously.In fact all my cousins who have joined army as other ranks are graduates(B.COM ,BSC ETC) even if they are from rural backgrounds.They are going to think and analyse whether you like it or not.They can surf the net.Some of them train with other armed forces around the world.The methods which worked 30 years ago are no longer going to work today.Times have changed

I do agree with you that Indian officers are very good.I will always choose Indian army officers over any other country's(including US).But then in US army it is NCO's who lead the teams in combat not the officers.Compared to Indian army US army is much more egalitarian.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jun 2010 17:28

Darshan, yes the difference between Indian officers and Indian soliders in greater than between the officers and soliders everywhere.

Which has nothing to do with my point that Indian soliders have indeed shown professional qualities which outstrip those of US. Where they are probably not comfortable with anything other than simple mindless application of force.

The egalitarian perspective makes it worse, that is a fancy way of saying that their officers are no better than their soldiers.

Here a well trained and professional officer cadre leads from the front and well disciplined trained Jawans back him -- holding their fire to the last, managing their ammunition and not crying into the towel for momma every time something goes wrong.

Sure the ability of US army to bring a massive amount of brutal mindless power is overwhelming and powerful too. However great powers dont survive long on grunt armies.

Powers that have persisted and dominated had intelligent armies. Loyal soldiers and crafty generals.

sawant · Post by **sawant** » 24 Jun 2010 19:50

Friends... let me clarify

1. I do not question the judgement of the officer. I respect it. Obviously they know better. Anything can go wrong in an operation or an ambush
2. I do not mean disrespect to the average Indian soldier. After all when there is a shortage of officers... there must be able soldiers who fill that gap and get promoted and lead further and make our country safe.
3. This may be a specific case for a specific unit at hand. As such I am sure IA will review and learn what could have gone wrong.

It's just that sometimes I feel in CI operations do we have to risk such senior officers. If it's an open war, we have no alternative but to push on, there are targets to be achieved at any cost. That's the concern I have. After all leaders inspire more leaders, but you want most of them to live and inspire isn't it ...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 24 Jun 2010 23:38

Received by email, author unknown.

The Curious Case of Indian Bureaucrats???!!!

Dear Friends

Last week Maj Gen Joshi called on me. He was an esteemed instructor during our Degree Course days, and EME officers would remember him as one of our finest engineers. Indeed, he spent most of his time with the DRDO. He was commissioned in Jun 1960 and was in the Eastern sector during the 1962 debacle. He has analyzed the event very systematically, and his study reveals the following :

Pt Nehru, the architect of modern India suffered a severe stroke of depression from which he never quite recovered. He died in May 1964 at the comparatively young age of 73.
VK Krishna Menon was removed from the post of Raksha Mantri for his incorrect assessment of the situation.
Gen Thapar, the COAS was sacked. The careers of Lt Gen Kaul and scores of other military officers took a "U" turn.
A few thousand soldiers died; many more were wounded and some were taken prisoners.
The psyche of the country received a severe blow. It was considered a 'National Shame'

The question he asked me was, "Who was the Defence Secretary? And what was the punishment meted out to him?" I have asked several friends and also surfed the Internet but I am unable to find an answer. In all probability nothing was done to him, because he had no role in this!

Gen Joshi then took this discussion a step further. He observed that during the recent attack on Mumbai, dozens of soldiers and policemen have been killed. The whole nation is shaken. Mr Shivraj Patil has lost his prestigious job. The CM of Maharashtra has been axed and several heads in the government are likely to roll. Can some one tell us as to what action has been taken against the Union Home Secretary or the Chief Secretary of Maharashtra? (Thomas tells me that they will all be "promoted" soon though he does not know why).

Having spent many years in and around the South Block, I marvel at the way our government has been structured. The Civil Servants rule the roost. In terms of promotions and status they are ahead of every one else by miles. They are central in the Pay Commission and the Cabinet Secretary is involved in every major decision making process. Yet, when things go wrong, they wash their hands off so clean that one wonders how!

A slightly closer examination reveals the secret. I have figured it out this way: They never do anything themselves. They always find some one else to be the head, and they know how to reduce him to be a 'figure head'. (In the Pay Commissions, they have a retired Judge). However they place themselves in a spot which has the maximum opportunity to influence matters.

After the event, they never face the Press or the Media. Their role is amorphous. The senior amongst them rarely sign a letter or order. Our pension letter is signed by a Director, who is not directly recruited IAS officer. Only rarely do you find a paper signed by a Joint Secretary. Officers above that level do not sign any document.

They have a strong association. It protects the interests of its members dutifully and diligently. So we have our Defence headquarters in which the postings, promotions, rewards and punishments of all senior officers are controlled by the civil servants; and they also have the final say in the process of procurement of weapons and eqpt, but they are not "responsible" if things go wrong! It is authority without responsibility. (For those who may not know, a lowly officer in the MoD can have a Deputy Chief posted out, but a Service Chief can not get even a Desk Officer moved)

When Gen Joshi left, I found myself perplexed. What sort of system have we evolved? And how has it survived all these years? It is a bit like a unit in which the clerks are running the unit and the CO is so dependent on the Head Clerk that he can not move without their help!

Can some one give a cogent answer to the questions raised by Gen Joshi?

CalvinH · Post by **CalvinH** » 25 Jun 2010 02:43

^^ the answer is pretty simple. IAS officers at Jt Secy levels and above are like Program Managers. They dont set the policy objectives. They just ensure that program objectives are delivered in time and budget, risks are managed and timely updates are sent. To compare them with clerks reeks of absolute hatred. They dont face media and dont sign anything because of such a role and thus are not also given any kudos for something that is successful. How many of us know the IAS officers behind successful govt programs like primary eduction, green revolution etc.

Though intelligent people they work basically to keep the system well oiled. They make and approve tactical decisions and can make tactical errors like everyone who is working is suspectible too but they seldom have a large say in strategic military matters. Actually they dont stay that long in the position.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 26 Jun 2010 15:13

People want AFSPA withdrawal for political gains: Army chief

"AFSPA is a misunderstood act and all who ask for its dilution or withdrawal, probably do so for narrow political gains," he said in an interview to the 'Land Forces' Defence magazine. The Army Chief was asked if the withdrawal of AFSPA would "seriously jeopardise" the safety and credibility of the force in Jammu and Kashmir.

Pointing out that soldiers operating in "hostile environment" need legal protection to perform their tasks efficiently, Singh said, "Any dilution or withdrawal of AFSPA will lead to constraining our operations."

Noting that though the violence levels have come down in the state, the Army Chief said, "the terrorist threat remains real and the terror infrastructure across the borders remains active.

"In such an environment, the security forces are required to undertake operations in challenging circumstances against highly trained terrorists armed and equipped with sophisticated weapons. Therefore, we need requisite legal protection."

Wow.. Thats brutally honest! Going by past cases of brutal honesty by an army general, let just safely say that a gag order from the government should be round the corner..

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Jun 2010 18:48

shukla wrote:People want AFSPA withdrawal for political gains: Army chief

"AFSPA is a misunderstood act and all who ask for its dilution or withdrawal, probably do so for narrow political gains," he said in an interview to the 'Land Forces' Defence magazine. The Army Chief was asked if the withdrawal of AFSPA would "seriously jeopardise" the safety and credibility of the force in Jammu and Kashmir.

Pointing out that soldiers operating in "hostile environment" need legal protection to perform their tasks efficiently, Singh said, "Any dilution or withdrawal of AFSPA will lead to constraining our operations."

Noting that though the violence levels have come down in the state, the Army Chief said, "the terrorist threat remains real and the terror infrastructure across the borders remains active.

"In such an environment, the security forces are required to undertake operations in challenging circumstances against highly trained terrorists armed and equipped with sophisticated weapons. Therefore, we need requisite legal protection."
Wow.. Thats brutally honest! Going by past cases of brutal honesty by an army general, let just safely say that a gag order from the government should be round the corner..

This is a paki army based demand being pushed through the separatist gang in kashmir.

The pakis have themselves have directly demanded this by asking for its removal as a CBM. Handing over kashmir would also be another CBM.

They simply want to hobble and embarrass the IA.

We seem to have many takers in India who seem unmindful of the dangers of the removal or modification of the AFSPA.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 26 Jun 2010 20:25

I think this AFSPA news should be seen in the context of geopolitics. In the 90's the IA was able to retain Kashmir successfully due to AFSPA. Now that Pakis will be back to their tactics of bleeding India with Chinese help and ground in afghanistan once US vacates. The pakis want to prepare a ground where IA will not have any immunity and that way they can terrorize us to give up kashmir.

The army chief is doing good by sounding this out openly and warning the dogs at the top of GOI. How the GOI responds is a different matter, but from his language one should be pretty convinced that Manmohan's peace gimmicks with pakistan and bowing to the US are not being taken lightly and the army will not give up one inch of India come what may.

skher · Post by **skher** » 26 Jun 2010 21:25

muraliravi wrote: How the GOI responds is a different matter, but from his language one should be pretty convinced that Manmohan's peace gimmicks with pakistan and bowing to the US are not being taken lightly and the army will not give up one inch of India come what may.

Silence is golden, and the present administration has learnt this the hard way. Mrs.G. generally likes quiet work.

IMhO, if I read GoI's intentions right, AFSPA is set to gain a more permanent and universal tone with the unified structures being considered for other states as well.

Personally, time is indeed ripe to change this law (most of all its name/date) and spread out its sections in various other laws. One less gripe for WKKs to applaud our servicemen with.

A few paras of the law are often quoted as anti-development without realising the effect op sadbhavana has had on the Valley.

Also, voices in Srinagar and Manipur are the only ones very happy with its removal.Rest are either angry or sitting on the fence.

P.S.: The Hon'ble Minister of the Interior was quoted,when he took charge, as saying that civil defence and home guards are the forces most in need of reform. Perhaps, the aforesaid forces will form the nucleus of the theaters when it becomes nationwide.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 28 Jun 2010 23:52

Army’s school of warfare to pack a punch.

The Army has firmed up plans to set up a counter-insurgency warfare school dedicated to training paramilitary forces near Raipur in Chattisgarh. The first-of-its-kind training facility, to be manned by 500 soldiers including 120 officers, will churn out 7,000 para-military personnel every year.

In a proposal sent to the Ministry of Home Affairs, the Army has sought 1,200 acres near Raipur for setting up the school.

An Army officer told HT, “We sent the proposal in the first week of June after carrying out a comprehensive study. The school will be operational within six months of allotment of land.” The Army has also proposed deploying an infantry battalion (around 800 soldiers) at the same location for providing security and demonstration of counter-insurgency drills to the trainees.

The school will be modelled on the Counter Insurgency and Jungle Warfare School at Vairengte in Mizoram, but will be bigger than the CIJWS. It would be headed by a Major General and also have representatives of the MHA and Intelligence Bureau, he said.

The Army's involvement has so far been limited to training para-military personnel for counter-insurgency operations. The force has trained around 50,000 state and central police forces at various military establishments, including the CIJWS.

The Army has also proposed deputing Colonels, who have learnt their trade in Kashmir and North-East, to Naxal-affected states for giving operational advice. “The experience of these officers in the counter-insurgency environment could lend new momentum to the government’s counter-Naxal efforts,” sources said.

The Army has suggested the raising of new specialised units consisting of Army veterans to create a new template for fighting Naxal cadres. The IAF has sought permission to pull out its Mi-17 helicopters serving UN missions in Africa, anticipating a bigger role in providing logistics support to security forces in anti-Naxal operations.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 29 Jun 2010 09:20

LoC gunbattle: 6 foreign militants, 3 jawans killed

Six armed foreign terrorists were killed on Monday and three Armymen lost their lives in a fierece gunbattle that broke out along the Line of Control [ Images ] (LOC) in Kupwara sector of Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ].

Acting on a tip off, troops picked up the movement of a group of infiltrating militants in 104 forward location along LoC in Kupwara belt and launched an operation, triggering the encounter, a senior Army official at Udhampur-based Northern Command told PTI.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 29 Jun 2010 15:13

Self - Deleted

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 29 Jun 2010 17:12

well Intresting Look like they are following BR

But just expressing concern and not addressing there problemitic core is not going to help

1.) It is clear and present danger then why No first use of nukes. Scarp it .. remove the tag of soft state .
2.) R & D needs big bang stimulus and make over.
3.) Remove Political , Diplomatic Concerns , even Hiccups from armed forces which are against indegenisation aka Arjun
4.) What need to purchased that had to be and at lightining fast process . Levels and Quality are fast deplting .. Why wait ... Go Buy it.
5.) Go Tell The young and youth of this country .. what army does and why You should choose it .. This is the worst thing i feel there is no effort at all in schools/colleges to fetch best talent and induldge patriotism .. No effort at all . A Young has no drive to get into armed forces , no emotion to serve country as a warrior . Ask Any kid who Vikram Batra was ??? .... A Aggressive module is required by army to fetch the best ...

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 01 Jul 2010 02:23

Panel to discuss bullet-proof bunkers on borders

The standing committee on defence in parliament will discuss a proposal on Thursday to provide bullet-proof bunkers to jawans posted on the Indo-Pak border.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 02 Jul 2010 01:47

Willkommen !

India To Request Javelin Missile Sale
Aviation Week

India To Request Javelin Missile Sale
Jul 1, 2010
NEW DELHI

The U.S. is Expected to Receive a Letter of Request from the Indian Government for a Proposed Foreign Military Sale (FMS) of the Javelin man-portable anti-tank missile system.

Built by a joint venture of Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, the Javelin has been demonstrated to the Indian army and was brought last October to a joint Indo-U.S. training exercise aimed at sharing experience in peacekeeping, humanitarian/disaster relief and counter-insurgency/counter-terrorism operations.

Of nine Javelin firings, three were done by Indian gunners picked at random, and all scored hits, according to Roger Rose, CEO of Lockheed Martin India.

Eventually “There Could be Hundreds” of Javelins Ordered, Rose says, Although the Initial Request is Expected to be Smaller.

The system weighs 22.45 kg. (50 lb.) and is ready to fire in 30 seconds with a reload time of 20 seconds. The missiles have a shelf life of 10 years.

The compact, lightweight medium-range missile system has been used in combat in Afghanistan and Iraq by U.S. and allied soldiers, marines and special operators. Eleven countries have selected Javelin to meet anti-armor requirements.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 02 Jul 2010 05:08

Army to induct 'offensive' corps along China border

Sources told TOI that the defence ministry has proposed the setting up of a Mountain Strike Corps and two Independent Brigades along the China border. The proposed corps would be India's fourth strike corps and the only one dedicated for offensive operations in mountainous terrain.

When contacted, a senior Army official looking after media affairs denied any such move. However, authoritative sources said the Cabinet Committee on Security is set to consider the proposal in the coming weeks. Once approved, the proposal would lead to a massive upgrade in India's military capabilities, and would be a huge step-up of Army presence along the border.

A senior official in the security establishment told TOI that the entire proposal was part of Army leadership's "vision" to catch up with China in military capabilities. The entire effort was "defensive in nature", he said.

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 02 Jul 2010 05:54

chetak wrote:Received by email, author unknown.

The Curious Case of Indian Bureaucrats???!!!

Dear Friends

Last week Maj Gen Joshi called on me. He was an esteemed instructor during our Degree Course days, and EME officers would remember him as one of our finest engineers. Indeed, he spent most of his time with the DRDO. He was commissioned in Jun 1960 and was in the Eastern sector during the 1962 debacle. He has analyzed the event very systematically, and his study reveals the following :

Pt Nehru, the architect of modern India suffered a severe stroke of depression from which he never quite recovered. He died in May 1964 at the comparatively young age of 73.
VK Krishna Menon was removed from the post of Raksha Mantri for his incorrect assessment of the situation.
Gen Thapar, the COAS was sacked. The careers of Lt Gen Kaul and scores of other military officers took a "U" turn.
A few thousand soldiers died; many more were wounded and some were taken prisoners.
The psyche of the country received a severe blow. It was considered a 'National Shame'

The question he asked me was, "Who was the Defence Secretary? And what was the punishment meted out to him?" I have asked several friends and also surfed the Internet but I am unable to find an answer. In all probability nothing was done to him, because he had no role in this!

Gen Joshi then took this discussion a step further. He observed that during the recent attack on Mumbai, dozens of soldiers and policemen have been killed. The whole nation is shaken. Mr Shivraj Patil has lost his prestigious job. The CM of Maharashtra has been axed and several heads in the government are likely to roll. Can some one tell us as to what action has been taken against the Union Home Secretary or the Chief Secretary of Maharashtra? (Thomas tells me that they will all be "promoted" soon though he does not know why).

Having spent many years in and around the South Block, I marvel at the way our government has been structured. The Civil Servants rule the roost. In terms of promotions and status they are ahead of every one else by miles. They are central in the Pay Commission and the Cabinet Secretary is involved in every major decision making process. Yet, when things go wrong, they wash their hands off so clean that one wonders how!

A slightly closer examination reveals the secret. I have figured it out this way: They never do anything themselves. They always find some one else to be the head, and they know how to reduce him to be a 'figure head'. (In the Pay Commissions, they have a retired Judge). However they place themselves in a spot which has the maximum opportunity to influence matters.

After the event, they never face the Press or the Media. Their role is amorphous. The senior amongst them rarely sign a letter or order. Our pension letter is signed by a Director, who is not directly recruited IAS officer. Only rarely do you find a paper signed by a Joint Secretary. Officers above that level do not sign any document.

They have a strong association. It protects the interests of its members dutifully and diligently. So we have our Defence headquarters in which the postings, promotions, rewards and punishments of all senior officers are controlled by the civil servants; and they also have the final say in the process of procurement of weapons and eqpt, but they are not "responsible" if things go wrong! It is authority without responsibility. (For those who may not know, a lowly officer in the MoD can have a Deputy Chief posted out, but a Service Chief can not get even a Desk Officer moved)

When Gen Joshi left, I found myself perplexed. What sort of system have we evolved? And how has it survived all these years? It is a bit like a unit in which the clerks are running the unit and the CO is so dependent on the Head Clerk that he can not move without their help!

Can some one give a cogent answer to the questions raised by Gen Joshi?

A very well thought of article. For something like 26/11, the MH Home sec should have been shunted out.
The reason is simple:
(a) Any extra equipment that DG police asks has to go through MH approval.
(b) Any BPJ demand went through the Finance dept again controlled by IAS, and usually that's the reason good BPJ never reached who needed it most.

The IAS has taken the power to say NO but without any repurcussions. That needs to change. Maybe IAS/IPS should be merged, so there is no inter service rivalry. I have known IAS officers from very close, a few of them are the best India has to offer, but the rules of no punishment has created a self serving culture.

The Def Sec and Home Secs need to be made accountable for lapses in their area as are the service chiefs.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 02 Jul 2010 06:48

Rupesh wrote:Army to induct 'offensive' corps along China border

Presently, Indian Army is engaged in raising two mountain divisions along the border with the giant neighbour. The proposed strike corps and two independent brigades would be separate from the two divisions being raised, he said.

The Army proposal, now under consideration at the highest levels of the government, envisages an expenditure of Rs 9,500 crore. The cost is primarily for new equipment such as ultra light howitzers and helicopters required for creating these highly mobile units. Units of the strike corps, to be based somewhere in the northeast, would be capable of operating like rapid reaction forces. The strike corps would have two divisions and other support troops, TOI has learnt.

raising of an independent brigade in Ladakh, and another brigade in Uttarakhand.

Ankit

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jul 2010 09:06

^^^Time for some long due lungi dance......

Now to some short analysis -

(a) If the news about the location of Mountain Strike Corps (MSC) in NE is true, then we're going to see total of 4 new Mountain Divisions(MD) in the sector. The AOR has been rationalized between Tezpur based 4 Corps and Dimapur based 3 Corps - each is a balanced formation with 3 Mountain Divisions each. 4 Corps has 1 MD up while 2 are in reserve and 3 Corps has 2 MD up and 1 in reserve. I expect it to be located east of the Siliguri Corridor - this new MSC will give great flexibility to the Eastern Command.

(b) So, in all, we've confirmation for 6 new MD being raised - 2 for NE+2 for Northern Sector and finally, these. Internet chatter tells me that the number planned is 10. Let us wait and watch.

(c) Two new (I) Infantry Brigades - the one in Ladakh will rationalize the AOR of 3 Infantry Division. Demchok and Chusul are with 3 ID brigades - this may be for DBO Sector. As for the Uttarakhand Sector (I) Infantry Brigade - interestingly, the area already has had an (I) Infantry Brigade group based in Joshimath (?)....This may be to rationalize the AOR and beef up the sector further. As it is, IA has the 6 MD sitting in Bareilly to march up in case of any shooting match.

We live in interesting times.......

PS (added later) - Just imagine, this also means at least 4 more MDs for the Indo-Pak shooting match.....

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 02 Jul 2010 11:17

I think it may be time for us to revisit my article written in 1998/99 and published in IDR and BR Monitor. Interesting to see how progress has followed what was recommended 11 years ago.

It is a different matter that the author has never received any credit.

Rajiv

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jul 2010 12:03

Rajiv Lather wrote:I think it may be time for us to revisit my article written in 1998/99 and published in IDR and BR Monitor. Interesting to see how progress has followed what was recommended 11 years ago.

It is a different matter that the author has never received any credit.

Rajiv

Can you share the articel,sir? Thanx.

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 02 Jul 2010 12:49

It is there on BR itself

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... ation.html

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 02 Jul 2010 12:57

Noob question: Have 'Airborne' mountain divisions ever been considered?
Am not talking about US style behind enemy lines air assaults, but just units which can be deployed primarily by air to their operational areas from their bases, even if it means airport/airbase to airbase/AGL if not airdropping. Call it a fast or air deploying MD if not an Airborne if you may. Having such units which can be dispatched at short notice to any place can be very nifty. For one not all the divisions are based close to the border and some are/going to be placed 'in land'. So moving them will take much less time and will reduce the stress on the roads of of the mountainous forward areas which are crappy any way.
Of course this would require a massive long term improvement in the air lift capability (which I think the IAF is already undertaking) and some problems w.r.t acclimatisation may be encountered.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jul 2010 13:12

abhik wrote:Noob question: Have 'Airborne' mountain divisions ever been considered?
Am not talking about US style behind enemy lines air assaults, but just units which can be deployed primarily by air to their operational areas from their bases, even if it means airport/airbase to airbase/AGL if not airdropping. Call it a fast or air deploying MD if not an Airborne if you may.<SNIP>

The word for such formations is Air Mobile - As per comments of a retired Lt. General in IDR, IA had drawn up plans for 2 Air Mobile Division - Rapid Reaction Forces, if you will. The contours are not clear in terms of deployment doctrine but I'm assuming these were for Op Falcon or Op. Trident kind of situations. The plans were shelved due to lack of airlift capability.

Even with 10 C-17, we'll not be able to airlift a Division - the goal should be to have a Air Mobile Brigade Group along with the 50 (I) Para Brigade.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jul 2010 14:07

Rajiv Lather wrote:It is there on BR itself

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... ation.html

Thank you for the link - I've couple of question:

(a) What was the rational behind the Orbat structure? How is it different from the set-up of the IA? And why is it "better" than the then present set-up (well, nothing has changed, actually)?
(b) What does it hope to achieve?
(c) How relevant is it to the present situation?

As for the Mountain Strike Corps - I think the suggestion emanated in the IA circles during the times of General Sundarji - as usual, the babus sat on it till the last moment.

Thanx.

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 02 Jul 2010 14:29

Rohitvats,

The Inep Bde for Uttarakhand will most probably be for the Pithoragarh area. This area is distinct from the Joshimath area- Mana , Malari sectors that are within the remit of 9 Bde.
I agree with you on the deployment for Ladakh.Interestingly, 3 Div is "two faced"- one bde in Siachen against Pak, while another one, 114 Bde, facing China. They have another auxiliary bde in North Ladakh. An indep inf bde for 3 Div may signify a future split of 3 Div into two divs, one facing China and the other towards Pak. Or maybe both will be dual region divs, but one will be offensive while the other is defensive.
The point I am not yet clear about is whether the MSC indicates raising of a total of 6 Divs? Is it actually six divisions , or are we double counting the third and fourth? The first two were raised last year. There may be a case we are double counting the last two and considering 6 instead of 4. I need clarification on this.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jul 2010 15:05

Avik wrote:Rohitvats,

The Inep Bde for Uttarakhand will most probably be for the Pithoragarh area. This area is distinct from the Joshimath area- Mana , Malari sectors that are within the remit of 9 Bde.

I agree with you on the deployment for Ladakh.Interestingly, 3 Div is "two faced"- one bde in Siachen against Pak, while another one, 114 Bde, facing China. They have another auxiliary bde in North Ladakh. An indep inf bde for 3 Div may signify a future split of 3 Div into two divs, one facing China and the other towards Pak. Or maybe both will be dual region divs, but one will be offensive while the other is defensive.

The point I am not yet clear about is whether the MSC indicates raising of a total of 6 Divs? Is it actually six divisions , or are we double counting the third and fourth? The first two were raised last year. There may be a case we are double counting the last two and considering 6 instead of 4. I need clarification on this.

Avik, mere bhai, araam se......

first things first, go easy on the naming the formations - some are openly known, some are not. There is a reason I did not name the (I) Mountain Brigade in Joshimath.

But your assertion on the Pithoragargh sector may well be correct - as I said, rationalization of AOR.

As for the 3 Div - we need to go back in history - AFAIK, the Division operates with 2 Brigades and not 3. The reserve brigade departed the sector in 70's to bolster the Fazilka-Abohar Sector and never returned. The Siachen front is maintained by 102(I) Mountain Brigade and not 3 Div. 3 Div takes care of Chusul and Dhemchok Sector - apart from these, we have the Ladakh Scout assets in the region; IIRC, worth a brigade. Again, IIRC, 114 Infantry Brigade is up while 70 Infantry Brigade is reserve (I earlier wrote that a brigade group each maintains Dhemchok and Chusul - I thing that is incorrect. 114 is incharge of the entire front).

This leaves the DBO Sector to the Chang Chenmo area - which can be the AOR of (I) Brigade. This sector, otherwise would have to handled by 102 (I) Brigade (with additional assets) or the 70 Brigade. So, what we may have is more rationalization of AOR and more dense depployment "on the ground". KK Pass to Dhemchok is 300+kms as the crow flies - hardly an ideal situation for a single division to handle. If the new (I) Brigade thing is for DBO, then this Bde. HQ can manage forces north of Pagong TSo - IA as well as ITBP assets. South of it can be the responsibility of 3 Div.

But IMO, we need one more Division HQ in Ladakh - a RAPID with Mechanized assets. Some local asset to for quick riposte in case of shenanighan by the PLA.

As for the MSC - the news in the media is clear on 2 Mountain Divisions in NE and 2 in North. The 2 MD in NE have already been absorbed in the 4 and 3 Corps; So, if the news about MSC for NE is true - it will need assets of it's own; atleast 2 more MDs. In case the media has it wrong (won't be first time) and MSC is for North, then there is possibility that 2 MDs for Northern Command may well be under this MSC.

Hope this helps.

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 02 Jul 2010 15:40

Rohitvats,
Thanks Boss! Thanks for the caution as well

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 02 Jul 2010 18:26

rohitvats wrote:The word for such formations is Air Mobile - As per comments of a retired Lt. General in IDR, IA had drawn up plans for 2 Air Mobile Division - Rapid Reaction Forces, if you will. The contours are not clear in terms of deployment doctrine but I'm assuming these were for Op Falcon or Op. Trident kind of situations. The plans were shelved due to lack of airlift capability.

Even with 10 C-17, we'll not be able to airlift a Division - the goal should be to have a Air Mobile Brigade Group along with the 50 (I) Para Brigade.

A feasibility study was indeed done in 1980s under Southern Command (former COAS Gen. JJ Singh lead a battalion in that exercise).

Such formation level capabilities are necessary when there is a scarcity of forces to be deployed over a large area. India, fortunately, does not face such a scarcity.

Unit level capabilities, however, has a lot of operational relevance. It comes into play both in low intensity CT and COIN ops, and in full scale battle as means of establishing air-heads and disrupting defensive LOCs (both using Mi-8s). That is why hundreds of junior officers, JCOs and NCOs from regular infantry and engineering units are trained in AA ops every year.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jul 2010 19:14

Rajiv Lather wrote:I think it may be time for us to revisit my article written in 1998/99 and published in IDR and BR Monitor. Interesting to see how progress has followed what was recommended 11 years ago.

It is a different matter that the author has never received any credit.

Rajiv

Rajiv, nishkama karma.
Off course the regulars know your ideas.

Welcome back.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 02 Jul 2010 22:43

X-post in context of newly raised MD..

Border talks: How India plays into China's hands
By staying engaged in the useless border talks, knowing fully well that Beijing [ Images ] has no intent to settle territorial issues, India [ Images ] gives greater space to China to mount strategic pressure and gain leverage, notes strategic expert Brahma Chellaney

Quote:
What does India gain by staying put in an interminably barren negotiating process with China?
By persisting with this process, isn't India aiding the Chinese engagement-with-containment strategy by providing Beijing the cover it needs? While Beijing's strategy and tactics are apparent, India has had difficulty to define a game-plan and resolutely pursue clearly laid-out objectives. Still, staying put in a barren process cannot be an end in itself for India.
India indeed has retreated to an increasingly defensive position territorially, with the spotlight now on China's Tibet-linked claim to Arunachal Pradesh than on Tibet's status itself. Now you know why Beijing invested so much political capital over the years in getting India to gradually accept Tibet as part of its territory. Its success on that score has helped narrow the dispute to what it claims. That neatly meshes with China's long-standing negotiating stance: What it occupies is Chinese territory, and what it claims must be on the table to be settled on the basis of give-and-take -- or as it puts it in reasonably sounding terms, on the basis of 'mutual accommodation and mutual understanding'.As a result, India has been left in the unenviable position of having to fend off Chinese territorial demands. In fact, history is in danger of repeating itself as India gets sucked into a 1950s-style trap. The issue then was Aksai Chin; the issue now is Arunachal.

http://news.rediff.com/column/2010/jul/ ... -talks.htm

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Jul 2010 10:41

War memorial shelved

At last, the war over the memorial has ended. Chief Minister B S Yeddyurappa announced on Thursday on the floor of the legislative council that the construction of the National Military Memorial will be stopped at the Indira Gandhi Musical Park and shifted to another location. The new location is yet to be decided.

In the last one year, Bangalore lost 52 per cent of its green cover and Bangalore Mirror, with its ‘Axed’ campaign, was in the forefront of efforts to stop the memorial from being built. Governor H S Bhardwaj too had written a letter to the CM making his displeasure about the project clear.

Rajeev Chandrashekar, MP who fought for the memorial, did not want to comment on the decision. However, a release from his office said, "This decision could have been taken much earlier by the CM and that would have spared tremendous cost, money and time spent by many people. It would have spared the families of martyrs and veterans the humiliation and trauma of this unseemly controversy."

We really deserve all the jhapads when there is no respect for the armed forces.

The country's first war memorial is started upon in Bengaluru, a neighboring apartment objects that it will man cutting trees and moves the HC. The HC dismisses the petition saying that there is nothing more important than a memorial for our martyrs. The, the SC is moved but SC also refuses to stay the constrcution.

So, all decks are cleared and CM abruptly says that the project is shelved and new land will have to be found!!!

Mera Bharat mahaan.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 03 Jul 2010 12:23

Army Plans New Force to Counter China

Army Plans New Force to Counter China
Suman Sharma / DNA
Friday, July 2, 2010 23:14

Almost 50 years after the Chinese aggression, the Indian army is finally looking to set up its own Rapid Reaction Force (RRF) at its border in the northeast.

The Chinese army already has 23 RRFs.

India has nine mountain divisions to counter China, but has no RRF — elite units that can be mobilised quickly. The plan for setting them up was drawn up by the military operations directorate and sent to certain formations for discussions and feasibility study.

A source told DNA, “It’s still not clear whether existing brigades will be converted into RRFs or new ones will be raised. Several things are to be considered before such a step is taken. There is a shortage of officers and the northeast does not have the infrastructure for this kind of thing.

Besides, it needs to be discussed whether it will be feasible to build an RRF and in what time that could be done.”

The army’s RRF plan includes a battalion of engineers and doctors. One way of raising the force is to take in troops who are not engaged at the borders.

The 23 RRFs in China have been trained to react quickly to limited border conflicts and can reach anywhere in the country within seven days.

They know how to operate modern equipment and communication systems. China’s RRFs are self-contained and can engage in direct combat. The force was raised after the PLA thought a capability-driven force would be better than one big in numbers.

Infrastructure is crucial to the functioning of the RRF, since better infrastructure means lesser travel time and lesser mobilisation time, consequently quicker reaction.

Perhaps that is the reason the Border Roads Organisation (BRO) is in the process of coming up with roads and other structures in the northeast.

They have been given Rs2,000 crore to re-activate advanced landing grounds in the northeast and Ladakh for the Indian Air Force’s aircraft.

There is a likelihood that the C-130J Super Hercules. that is likely to come from the US, would be based in the northeast. The first batch of these would be inducted into the IAF in February 2011.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 03 Jul 2010 18:13

the big advantage the PLA has is its bases in high altitude regions, their troops are already well acclimitised. we will have to maintain large numbers of troops in semi-field conditions at alttitude if RRF has any credibility, or have a smart way of replacing base troops with plainsmen and send the mountainmen forward at short notice

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 03 Jul 2010 20:53

sum wrote:We really deserve all the jhapads when there is no respect for the armed forces.

The Army establishments in Bengaluru IMHO should now build a good war memorial in one its areas close to a public place. And then publicize it to such an extend that people make a point to visit it. I am sorry to say this, but we have come to a stage that Army is only remembered when people are in danger, or else it is slighted and forgotten. Time for Army to "blow its own trumpet" for a while. And in the war memorial, a special section should be made to show how Bangalore Mirror and the so called emminent citizens of Bangalore went ahead and scuttled the earlier plan.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Jul 2010 22:54

Lalmohan wrote:the big advantage the PLA has is its bases in high altitude regions, their troops are already well acclimitised. we will have to maintain large numbers of troops in semi-field conditions at alttitude if RRF has any credibility, or have a smart way of replacing base troops with plainsmen and send the mountainmen forward at short notice

From what is publicly know on the Orbat and deployment of PLA, China hardly maintains "offensive" troops in the Tibetan Plateau...what ever troops there are, are for border duties and some reserve. The whole setup in the Tibet Military District -opposite our NE will amount to no more than over-sized division - apart from Border Troops. Balance troops in immediate vicinity are in Chengdu (around two Corps worth) - at 1,600 odd feet, it is hardly high-altitude.

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 04 Jul 2010 14:50

@sum, sachin : A poignant thought -

(Scratched into the wall of a sentry box on the Island of Gibraltar is an unsigned message from a soldier)

God and the Soldier, all men adore,

In time of danger and not before.

When the danger is passed and all things righted,

God is forgotten, and the Soldier slighted.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Jul 2010 09:28

India and Russia plan for INDRA 2010 exercise

In accordance with previous agreements, the exercise is planned in autumn in India, involving up to 150 troops from the RF Armed Forces. Russia will involve motorized rifle company from the separate motorized rifle brigade (mountain).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2010 09:51

a good place would be build a giant park and memorial on army land at the junction of intermediate ring road and Ejipura or IRR with domlur near the horse stables with ample parking also so that people can enjoy the waterbodies, flowers and paths therein. have walls with names of soldiers like in washington DC, a eternal flame, and a audio video museum where both stories of our heroes and information about the army and equipment is displayed. have a equipment park where kids can learn and play around with all the equipment we have including retired prithvi missiles. engage some pvt security agency and have a nice pvtly run food court. that way the costs can be recovered over time.

it will soon become a must visit for bangaloreans and a stop on the tourist circuit in the city.

a static memorial of the kind scuttled - nobody will visit except the minister on day1. who is even aware of cubbon's statue in cubbon park or the statue in hudson circle.

just look at how smithsonian air and space museum is a must visit for any tourist, its food court, its packed with info and working models,
excellent psyops for usa military and science....we need to think along such lines.

HAL museum also needs a upgrade from 1980s level to today's level . HAL is flush is cash. cant they spare 100cr for this essential psyops?
Singapore has two science centers. why cant we have atleast one such world class facility in each metro? Visveswaraya museum again needs 250cr to come up to world class and move away from 1980s facility.

the payoff for kids is also there. unless science and war is made cool, do we want a nation of i-bankers and brokers only ?

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 06 Jul 2010 11:11

To add on to that, as a school kid I remember a chapter in the prescribed hindi book about the exploits of Trevor Keelor and his downing of a Paki Sabre narrated in a most dramatic manner.

The army chief some time back mentioned the need to have the children read about the exploits of the heroes - fallen as well as those who came back. This is the only way we can educate the future generations of the sacrifices made by the armed forces and also attract the best of the available talent when the time comes.

To some extent, I personally hold the forces too of being guilty of not 'selling' themselves to attract talent. Ad campaigns like the 'do You Have It In You?' only have a limited appeal - romanticism can work, but an additional need of the day is also to present the armed forces in a manner supported by facts and figures that may help convince many a skeptic of joining the forces.