Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2010

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Prem
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Prem »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12312336
( Improved Downhill ski skills)
Pakistan hosts ski tournament in former Taliban area
We had invited teams from across Pakistan but all of them could not take part," Matiullah Khan, President of Pakistan's Skiing Federation, told the BBC."At the moment, six teams from the Khyber Pakhtoonkhwa province are participating. Teams from Lahore and Rawalpindi have said they will reach the venue soon."An official from Khyber Pakhtoonkhwa's government said the aim of organising the skiing festival was to show the rest of Pakistan and the world that peace had been established in Swat.
"We hope the valley will once again become the haven for terrorists that it once was," he said.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by akutcher »

I think this incident marks an important milestone vis-a-vis Pakiland. The "public sentiment" has started interfering with the routine kaam-dhaam of the Foreign Service afsars over there. Arresting a "diplomat", that too an American would have been 101% haraam even 2 years ago. But after the Salam Taseer episode the RAPE class afasars are hesitant to release one of their paymaster's "technical advisor", lest they be declared Wajib-Ul-Qatal and gunned downed by one of their bodyguards.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by arun »

X Posted from the Liberation of Oppressed Peoples Ruled by China and Pakistan thread.

Another blow in support of the liberation of Balochistan from the yoke of Pakistani Punjabi occupation:

Bridge in Uch Gas Field blown up
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Singha »

he could have been in talks with rape elite to provide pvt security staff (americans or eu/sa/aus) and let then get rid of jihadi pakjab police after guvornor killing.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Samay »

Porkiland is on the verge of becoming an Iranian clone. If the Americans keep on shooting killing in porkiland, it will provoke common masses and will give the fanatics stonghold under those circumstances.

It would be better to finish off the terror infra. altogether asap , the more they delay lesser public and military support they will get, before porkis start believing that islamic fanticism is a goood thing, better do it now .
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Rajdeep »

This is something really entertaining , the way these ppl try to portray yindoos as devils and how they were living as cavemen before the araps came and rescued them is really crazy.
This is the topic for discussion - If India is our ideological enemy so why Indian films and dramas in our homes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osiZMRNYMD4



That Oriya guy is a real piece of work.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Raghavendra »

Rajdeep wrote:‘Rambo’ was on task
http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-news ... s-on-task/
The police also intensified security of the accused being kept at an undisclosed location and deployed policemen on his protection without weapons to avoid Mumtaz Qadri like episode as anti-US emotions run high at grass root level.
Intensifying security by disarming people protecting the would be wajib-ul-qatal person :rotfl:

Disarm the police of their belts too, as those could be used to strangulate blackwater birather :mrgreen:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

India will share information on Samjhauta blast case with Pak: Chidambaram

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 139903.ece
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by partha »

Rajdeep wrote:This is something really entertaining , the way these ppl try to portray yindoos as devils and how they were living as cavemen before the araps came and rescued them is really crazy.
This is the topic for discussion - If India is our ideological enemy so why Indian films and dramas in our homes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osiZMRNYMD4



That Oriya guy is a real piece of work.
Who gave these jihadis Indian visa? That anchor thinks India should not have intervened in 1971 because Pakis were watching Indian movies in 60s? WTF?
"hey i agree that i was raping my sister but why did the neighbor come and stop me?"

wow.. looks like our Madhuris and Urmilas are giving more takleef to the Pakis than our Govt! More power to them.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Anujan »

This is BENIS material, so spill aleart

Nation: ‘Rambo’ was on task
The accused after ensuring on-the-spot death of the boys...The autopsy report of deceased boys, Faizan Haider and Faheem, suggested that the accused fired multiple shots to ensure their on-the-spot death... one of the boys also sustained bullets in the back.
and from somewhere else
Faizan Haider aged 32... :rotfl:
Wonder what the secret for eternal youth is in Pakistan. And by the way
investigators questioned him (The american) in pleasant atmosphere while serving him black coffee & delicious bakery products
No wonder crime is exploding, if you get delicious bakery products for shooting people :rotfl:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by VikramS »

shiv:

I think you know this subject better than me, but please do apply some game theory to the situation.

TSP conceded territory to China in the early 60s. The Chinese, were and are, very clear about India being the road-block to their rise in Asia; it is not without a reason that the Chinese diplomats call Pakistan and N.Korea as China's Israel.

As Johann has pointed out, the Chinese have provided the TSP with all the strategic technologies needed to become a nuisance. The Americans may have looked the other way, but they were not the primary source. The Americans have used the TSP when they needed her, and dumped her as soon as their needs were met. It is only the Chinese who have stood with the TSP over the past 50 years. And take a lot of these aid figures with a pinch of salt. A lot of the money is recycled back to US citizen's who work as consultant, program heads etc or to US corporations who provide the services.

And my read of the situation has very little for me having a soft corner for the US based on some Anglo connection on what not. It is primarily based on trying to understand China. When China was not an economic power they provided the strategic technology. Right now they are waiting for the Americans to dry their coffers and leave. They are very well aware that once the Americans leave (if they ever), the TSP will be dancing to their tunes. And in the meantime they are getting economic access to natural resources in Afghanistan, military access to strategic POK regions, and once they dust settles potentially a land route to the Energy basis to the West. Put yourself in the shoes of the Chinese leaders and think in terms of what their perspective is.

Of course the Chinese will demand a much harder bargain from the TSP than the Americans ever did. But the RAPE will give in. And while they are dealing with the Chinese, they will go all out to find another sugar-daddy to have a counter to the Chinese.

Prem: That Western lifestyle you alluded is not unique to the West. The RAPE can get all the action they need in the Mid-East or the Far-East. As the center of economic power shifts towards the East, the RAPE's natural cockroach instincts will also force them to look-east instead of going West. They are the ultimate opportunist; they have no qualms, no morals.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by vic »

I would expect that victims were riding along showing theirs hmm pistols and Rambo swiped them with his car. When they fell down, he shot them calmly. Thereafter, waited for police and took pics with his Cell. I think that Jehadistan should hang the Rambo immediately, and demand another US$ 1 Billion from USA.

Shooting a pistol, from inside a car, on 2 targets, without missing requires huge skill which is constantly kept up to date with training for a this very scenario.

Can it be that Rambo was escorting somebody more important??
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Dilbu »

While we are concentrating on Rambo the backup car from embassy which ran over a pedestrian has disappeared. Looks like that is something they want to keep a secret. More noise on Rambo, less on the car.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by vic »

Perhaps the "innocent victims" were following the "disappeared car" and Rambo came from behind and shot them. It is interesting that he shot them deliberately and repeatedly. Normally, he should have just swiped them (as they were on bikes) and drove on. Something is missing. I think "now" that the victims were the targets. They were boxed in by two cars. Bike was swiped and they fell down. Then the Rambo shot them and took pics to collect his pay off. Crowd gathered to protect innocent victims or just enjoy the scene. Other car drove away crushing some innocent potential jihadis while Davis the softiee got left behind. I think it is deliberate retributory shoot out. No wonder Pakis are not saying who the victims were. Lot of things under the surface.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by SSridhar »

VikramS wrote:TSP conceded territory to China in the early 60s. The Chinese, were and are, very clear about India being the road-block to their rise in Asia; it is not without a reason that the Chinese diplomats call Pakistan and N.Korea as China's Israel.

As Johann has pointed out, the Chinese have provided the TSP with all the strategic technologies needed to become a nuisance. The Americans may have looked the other way, but they were not the primary source. The Americans have used the TSP when they needed her, and dumped her as soon as their needs were met. It is only the Chinese who have stood with the TSP over the past 50 years. And take a lot of these aid figures with a pinch of salt. A lot of the money is recycled back to US citizen's who work as consultant, program heads etc or to US corporations who provide the services.
VikramS, the Chinese assistance started much later after the Americans had laid the foundations for the present-day behaviour of the Pakistanis and supported them to their hilt. The Chinese assistance started much later and the strategic transfer happened in the 80s. From all the evidence available now, I would say that the Americans had come to a secret agreement with the Pakistanis in 1979 that they would turn a blind eye and even help them in procuring nuclear material and technology covertly but they could sustain such an assistance only so long as the Afghan campaign lasted and it was up to the Pakistanis to make hay while the sun shone. This American behaviour is as vile as the actual transfer of strategic weapons, designs and delivery systems by the Chinese. No less. It was the direct American assistance and indirect support that was responsible for the 1965 war and the 1971 genocide and war. It was the American assistance that helped Pakistan sustain the J&K issue politically. It was the American assistance that has created the terrorism monster directed against India. I entirely agree with Shiv on the 80:20 apportionment of blame between the US and China as far as Pakistani situation goes. Some may argue it was 70:30, but there not much scope for further dilution of this.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by shiv »

Johann wrote: Here is a quote, which even apart from the Pakistani tendency to inflation, and the differences between pledges and contracts should still be taken seriously;

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/LL21Df01.html
KARACHI - Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao left Islamabad on Sunday after a three-day official visit that included a commitment to invest about US$20 billion in Pakistan within the next three years and further agreement on private-sector trade deals worth about $15 billion.
:rotfl: Johann - you are normally so well informed but I think you haven't read the truth about these reports. Pakistani reports about these figures. I would love to see the Chinese make these investments in Pakistan. Let them bring it on.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

^ Even Najam Sethi did not believe these numbers.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by VikramS »

SSridhar wrote:I entirely agree with Shiv on the 80:20 apportionment of blame between the US and China as far as Pakistani situation goes. Some may argue it was 70:30, but there not much scope for further dilution of this.
There is a concept of sunk cost in economic decision making. What that implies is that all decisions going forward should be based on future development and prospects and not what has been sunk in the past. Given where the TSP is in 2011, who is a better sugar-daddy wrt to the Indian POV?
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All the other issues have been discussed to death before. The TSP was created and encouraged by the West to further their interest in the region. TSP played that part very well till 1990. In return TSP got the goodies it got. It was a simple quid pro quo.

India made herself irrelevant to the West; the West did not care about the Indian perspective since the Indian and the Western goals, while not on opposite ends, were not-aligned with each other. Indian interests were ignored because India ignored Western interests, while TSP's interests got served because TSP served Western interests.

All this talk about the tacit understanding has to be taken with reference to context. India had tested the bomb and for the West the TSP clamoring to get its own, was an understandable and perceived as a benign pursuit. Also note that the quest for the TSP bomb started in the pre-Islamist/pre-Zia era. Once the fruits of the Zia era became visible, and the Afghan war ended that window too ended. Of course in retrospect it was a cardinal blunder made by the West; but at that time a bomb in TSP was not seen as anything dangerous to the West facing a 1000 bombs from the Soviets.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

VikramS wrote: There is a concept of sunk cost in economic decision making. What that implies is that all decisions going forward should be based on future development and prospects and not what has been sunk in the past.

...

All the other issues have been discussed to death before. The TSP was created and encouraged by the West to further their interest in the region. TSP played that part very well till 1990. In return TSP got the goodies it got. It was a simple quid pro quo.

India made herself irrelevant to the West; the West did not care about the Indian perspective since the Indian and the Western goals, while not on opposite ends, were not-aligned with each other. Indian interests were ignored because India ignored Western interests, while TSP's interests got served because TSP served Western interests.

All this talk about the tacit understanding has to be taken with reference to context. India had tested the bomb and for the West the TSP clamoring to get its own, was an understandable and perceived as a benign pursuit. Also note that the quest for the TSP bomb started in the pre-Islamist/pre-Zia era..
It is very interesting that people here try to rationalize the policies of US govt w.r.t. Pakistan by using terms/phrases like "India made her irrelevant", "quid-pro-quo", "understandable", "context" etc. (Some have even seen fairness in Kissinger in 1970s. ) I guess it is all maaya onlee. We should not worry too much about it. Next time a 26/11 happens, and we are restrained due to these policies, we should act like a forward-looking country and not think about "sunk cost". Pure bliss.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Johann »

SSridhar,

There is no question that the highest elements of the Reagan administration chose to look the other way in order to prevent US non-proliferation laws (the Glenn and Symington amendments) kicking in and blocking the US aid to Pakistan that would allow it to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

Stupid and wrong as this policy was, saying that this is the same as the actual transfer is jump off the reality train.

The United States had no desire to see North Korea acquire a nuclear capability, and has pursued sanctions, negotiations and threats for decades to prevent them. None of these actions worked.

The idea that America could have prevented Sino-Pakistani collusion in the early 1980s is pretty far fetched. The PRC under Deng launched a program of proliferation in the 1980s that was far wider than Pakistan. Please see Los Alamos scientist Danny Stillman's book "The Nuclear Express" whose job it was to liaise with the Chinese nuclear community.
He presents evidence that the Chinese tested the Pakistani weapon on 26 May 1990.

Linking the US as the key factor in the 1965 war is also very much misplaced - Z.A. Bhutto had been foreign minister since 1963 had alienated the Kennedy and Johnson administration over the question of Vietnam and China. Both administrations had refused to internationalise Kashmir despite calls from Ayub. Bhutto forged the 1963 border agreement with the Chinese, and convinced Ayub that a Chinese-Vietnamese style 'people's warfare' guerrilla campaign would work in Kashmir, and that India would not dare resort to general war along the IB because a newly nuclear China would pin it down on its right flank.

20 OCT- 21 NOV 1962: Sino-Indian war.

JAN 1963: Bhutto becomes Foreign Minister. Immediately begins contact with PRC.

MAR 1963: Sino-Pakistani Frontier Agreement cedes 2200 sq mi of Kashmiri territory to the PRC.

NOV 1963: Lyndon Johnson sworn in as President after Kennedy's assassination.

AUG 1964: Gulf of Tonkin incident. Full scale US commitment to Vietnam war. Calls on all SEATO members to support the effort, but Pakistan baulks.

16 OCT 1964: PRC conducts first nuclear test at Lop Nor.

24 OCT 1964: Indian DAE Chairman Homi Bhabha claims in an AIR broadcast that India can build a 10kt bomb in 18 months should it desire for Rs 1.75m, and could build a 50 bomb arsenal for under Rs. 10 crores.

NOV 1964: Ayub refuses to allow USAF sampling missions to be conducted over Pakistan after Chinese test in discussion with DDP South Asia Division Chief and US Ambassador. Describes China as an enemy, but cites need for caution.

JAN 1965: Ayub narrowly defeats Fatima Jinnah in indirect presidential elections. Ayub shaken by the strength of the opposition.

MAR 1965: Ayub visits Beijing.

MAR 1965: Training of "Gibraltar Force" starts at Kotli, Mongburji (near Rawlakot), Shinkiari and Ratu in Gilgit

5 APR 1965: First attacks on Indian troop positions in the Kashmir valley.
Last edited by Johann on 30 Jan 2011 14:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by shiv »

VikramS wrote: As Johann has pointed out, the Chinese have provided the TSP with all the strategic technologies needed to become a nuisance. The Americans may have looked the other way, but they were not the primary source. The Americans have used the TSP when they needed her, and dumped her as soon as their needs were met. It is only the Chinese who have stood with the TSP over the past 50 years. And take a lot of these aid figures with a pinch of salt. A lot of the money is recycled back to US citizen's who work as consultant, program heads etc or to US corporations who provide the services.
I personally think too much is made of the nuclear threat that Pakistan poses. An overt threat from Pakistan was unreported and not thought of as credible for the first 50 years of its existence. The "threat" started from 1998 although the Chinese are supposed to have tested a nuke for Pakistan in Lop Nor in 1986. India, who faced that threat from the 80s - faced it alone with no sympathy from the US. Many of us Indians are now making a hue and cry about Paki nukes now, 25 years later, when those Paki nukes may finally be threatening the US.

The Pakistani American relationship is special. The "ruling class" of Pakistan is a small community of people who form the "establishment". The "establishment" are a relatively small number of interrelated families who are a mix of landed gentry, army generals and businesspersons who have a grip on the economy of Pakistan, and who "own" most of Pakistan.

The parts that were ceded to China were areas that the Pakistanis has no chance of exerting any control over. Even after ceding portions to China the Pakistani establishment did not control vast areas of its own territory. To understand America's chicanery you have to go back and look at their actions from 1960 till 1990. (American aid went into a lull only from 1990 to 2001) The people on the Durand line (Pakistanis) were being bombed as far back as 1964 - going by Sajad Haider's autobiography.And they were being bombed using US supplied Sabres before the 65 war.

One needs to look at how the US has viewed internal turmoil and strife and "splittism" in various countries. The US consistently supported dictators who favored them over democratic or revolutionary people's movements. That means that the US would support a South Vietnam over the North, the Shah of Iran over the mass (egged on by Ayatollahs). I have been constantly told that the US "acts in its in interest and I know that and do not want to be told that again, for I have a point to make.

Whenever the US found a nation that was declared anti US - they supported anti government revolutionary movements in those countries. For that reason the "Kashmir cause" was a just cause for the US

On the other hand, if there was a nation in which the government supported the US, the US would in turn support the government against any anti-government rebels. Pakistan was never democratic and the Pakistani army and elite were always at war with their tribals in the NWFP and the had forcibly occupied Balochistan. The US - which was oh so gung ho in opposing the North Vietnamese and later the Ayatollahs of Iran have always firmly supported the Pakistani establishment and army in ruthlessly suppressing their own people. That means that "people's aspirations" in Pakistan were never allowed to get into the UN. Democracy in Pakistan never became an issue, but Kashmir was allowed in and discussed to death. All this may have been in the interests of the US, but it was both anti-India and also against the aspirations of the tribals on either side of the Durand line and Balochistan as ell as the developmental aspirations of mango Pakis. China - as an international pariah and a weakling had no role to play in this.

The Chinese are becoming a force only now, but let me make a prediction about China. There is a revolution in Pakistan starting now. That revolution is going against the establishment and army. If China supports that Islamic revolution in Pakistan - they will face hell in Xinjiang. If China supports the Pakistani establishment and "replaces" the US - they will get butt-kicked just as the US is getting butt-kicked now.

I am sticking my neck out and making a prediction new. The people of Pakistan can see peace and development only if they throw off the establishment. It is the US and China who have supported the establishment. The moot point is "Can the US or China suddenly stop supporting the establishment and start supporting the people's aspirations of Pakistan?" :rotfl: Yes if they accept Islamists in power.

We must get Islamists in power in Pakistan. The Islamists hate India anyway, but India has always been hated - nothing new there. But the Islamists, unlike the establishment are anti-US as well and anti-China insofar as Chinese attitudes to Uighurs go. If Islamists are in power in Pakistan, the US is out and China is hardly going to be "in" until they stop eating pork and talk about rights for Uighur. That is why both China and the US support the RAPE Paki establishment. Chinese and US influence in Pakistan is via that group. If that group goes, their influence goes.

India, with its humane treatment of Muslims has a far better chance of developing a trading relationship with an Islamist government in Pakistan. India treats Islam better that the US and China combined. And has more successful and prosperous Muslims than the US and China combined.

By blindly opposing populist Islamist forces we Indians are being stupid. We are handing the baton to the US and China to support the establishment and crush the Islamists. The US and China can easily support the 1 million strong establishment. But they cannot support a 180 million strong Pakistan. That Pakistan needs trade. Pakistan's economy has virtually no manufacturing, no developed services, no high levels of education. Pakistan's economy is agrarian. Guess who will buy Pakistan's agro products jowar and toor dal? The US? China? India? If we play our cards right China can do nothing. Neither can the US.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by shiv »

By teh way, please pardon me for pushing the point, but I suppose you guys have seen this video about the understanding between Pakistan and China and how deep it runs. The video is more serious than one might imagine..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWiwy_iRTwA
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Johann wrote: There is no question that the highest elements of the Reagan administration chose to look the other way in order to prevent US non-proliferation laws (the Glenn and Symington amendments) kicking in and blocking the US aid to Pakistan that would allow it to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

Stupid and wrong as this policy was, saying that this is the same as the actual transfer is jump off the reality train.

The United States had no desire to see North Korea acquire a nuclear capability, and has pursued sanctions, negotiations and threats for decades to prevent them. None of these actions worked.
CIA was aware that Pakis were buying stuff from Europe. But they kept "observing" for 30 years. They did not (even try to) stop it.

If you ignore Europe, Pakis were also buying nuclear materials from US, and CIA/FBI was aware of it. The Pakis were tipped off by the highest levels of the US Govt. Often they escaped. When they were arrested (once or twice), the charges were diluted. They were released after 1-2 months.

The Pentagon/State dept lied to their Congress that the F-16s sold to the Pakis can't be used to drop nuclear bombs.

US imposed sanctions only because A. Q. Khan gave that interview to Kuldip Nayar. Otherwise, the Bush admisitration was willing to close its eyes. So one can say that India's military movements in the border regions led to those sanctions.

The US was aware that many C-130 planes were flying from Pakistan to North Korea. If they were serious about stopping proliferation, they could have shot it down, right? (Shooting down an Iranian civilian airplane was pretty simple.)
Last edited by abhishek_sharma on 30 Jan 2011 15:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Raghavendra »

'Lashkar a tool of ISI, ally of al Qaeda'
http://www.zeenews.com/news683719.html
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Johann wrote: The United States had no desire to see North Korea acquire a nuclear capability, and has pursued sanctions, negotiations and threats for decades to prevent them. None of these actions worked.
It is easy to see that North Korea survives because it can rely on China. So imposing sanctions on N Korea is a joke as long as US maintains good relations with China (And the US has done everything to not offend China.)

It is like imposing sanctions on Bhutan. Not going to work.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Johann »

shiv wrote:We must get Islamists in power in Pakistan. The Islamists hate India anyway, but India has always been hated - nothing new there. But the Islamists, unlike the establishment are anti-US as well and anti-China insofar as Chinese attitudes to Uighurs go. If Islamists are in power in Pakistan, the US is out and China is hardly going to be "in" until they stop eating pork and talk about rights for Uighur. That is why both China and the US support the RAPE Paki establishment. Chinese and US influence in Pakistan is via that group. If that group goes, their influence goes.

India, with its humane treatment of Muslims has a far better chance of developing a trading relationship with an Islamist government in Pakistan. India treats Islam better that the US and China combined. And has more successful and prosperous Muslims than the US and China combined.

By blindly opposing populist Islamist forces we Indians are being stupid. We are handing the baton to the US and China to support the establishment and crush the Islamists. The US and China can easily support the 1 million strong establishment. But they cannot support a 180 million strong Pakistan. That Pakistan needs trade. Pakistan's economy has virtually no manufacturing, no developed services, no high levels of education. Pakistan's economy is agrarian. Guess who will buy Pakistan's agro products jowar and toor dal? The US? China? India? If we play our cards right China can do nothing. Neither can the US.
I don't think you should underestimate the Chinese ability to operate in Islamist environments.

A journalist friend in Basrah was bowled over by hundreds of Chinese women hawkers on its streets, wandering around in shorts. Completely unmolested in a place where women don't even think of wearing jeans in public.

The Taliban's (the same Taliban that had the time and energy to blow up the Bamian Buddhas as an insult to Islam) relationship with the PRC was so strong that Mullah Omar sent out a message of congratulations to the PRC on the anniversary of its founding in 2009.

If you saw the statistics quoted on the previous page, China is willing to invest tens of billions in Pakistan - I don't doubt that the Pakiban would be willing to make an exception for their Chinese brothers, especially if the guns keep flowing.

China has perhaps the most experience in the world when it comes to befriending paranoid pariah states - they cracked North Korea and Myanmar decades back, and before that Enver Hoxha's Albania.

I wouldn't at all count on the incompatibility between the Chinese and Deobandi, clerical-ruled Pakistan if such a thing were to ever happen. The majority of Pakjabis unfortunately seem a long way off from rejecting the PA as a bunch of anti-Islamic, anti-national sellouts.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Gagan »

Johann saar,
Seems you've missed this. For your viewing pleasure.

The reality of Pakistan - China relationship. Najam Sethi reveals all :rotfl:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9iv7sD-XNQ
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1vtSsdeRVA
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDZCilcDmJ0
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdSux_vN5ZI
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Johann »

Abishek,

Pakistan in 1979 before the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was very much isolated.

It was under sanctions from the Carter Administration over its nuclear programme - in fact in August 1979 the Pakistanis immediately placed a battery of Crotale SAMs at Kahuta, believing the US might be contemplating military action against the site after an NYT story.

Pakistan had been expelled from the Commonwealth for Zia's overthrow and execution of Z.A. Bhutto.

It's relationship with Afghanistan and India (both of which improved under Bhutto) had severely deteriorated.

Libya's Qadhdhaffi who funded the nuclear programme under Bhutto was supporting Bhutto's son run a terrorist campaign against Zia. Iran was caught up in it own struggles after the revolution and no longer able to subsidise a Sunni Pakistan.

Let's assume nothing changed, and that the Americans never got involved.

Do you think the Reagan turn around really made the critical difference in Pakistan's acquisition of nuclear and missile capabilities?

Do you honestly think the Chinese weren't going to proliferate to Pakistan? They were willing to help all sort of other states like Iran, Algeria, North Korea, etc.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Gagan »

The Islamists are a bit like the communists.
They hate EVERYBODY.

Islamists coming to power in Pakistan will increase the takleef for China and the US more than India.

India will be affected do doubt about it. How much, is debatable. But one must remember that we have a huge muslim population, we must protect our interests both externally and internally.
China will be a big loser (if they don't play their cards right) if the islamists come to power. I don't know if the Chinese are stoopid. For the islamists to find common cause with the Uhigurs, someone will have to point them in that direction AND then keep them focussed in that direction through incentives and disincentives. Revolution doesn't come cheap.

Having the hardliners in power is not necessarily a bad thing.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by nachiket »

Well if the Islamists do come to power in Pakistan, baksheesh from 1.5 of its 3.5 friends would probably dry up. Aid and investment from the middle east would continue though, especially KSA and probably China as well. It might be good for India in other ways since the Aman ki Asha, "pissfool" dialogue and "Kashmir Solution" bullshyt would hopefully cease.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Johann wrote:Abishek,

Do you think the Reagan turn around really made the critical difference in Pakistan's acquisition of nuclear and missile capabilities?

Do you honestly think the Chinese weren't going to proliferate to Pakistan?
Fair point. But it is a hypothetical. There were some differences between Chinese and Paki nuclear programmes:

From the book "Deception": Page 63
But Khan had a plan B. Sensing a time when foreign parts would dry up altogether, he had been ingenious, fitting out machine shops at Kahuta to reverse-engineer centrifuge components based on the ones he had already bought in Europe, using design moulds provided by his European contractors. Although China could help with raw materials, bomb and missile designs, its uranium enrichment programme was based on diffusion, completely different from centrifuge technology, in which it had no expertise.
Therefore, as far as the present trajectory of history is concerned, American inaction did play an important role in Paki nuclear programme. You can argue that Pakis could have dropped their centrifuge technology dreams and used Chinese diffusion technology. That is possible. I do not know how likely it is.

Even if we ignore this point, US promised to "respond" if India (or Israel) bombed Kahuta. Why did the US show this great desire to protect Kahuta?

Thirdly, if the US had no desire to enhance Paki nuclear capability, they should not have sold nuclear-capable F-16s to them. Without those F-16s, General Sundarji would have done something in late 80s. As far as I understand, they did not have nuclear missiles in late 1980s. Once they had their F-16s, J&K started to warm up.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Gagan »

All these thoughts about US giving up on Pakistan are wish-fool thinking. Ain't going to happen.

The US will be pragmatic, and keep pakistan in its fold. They rightly see Pakistan as a bawling baby crying out to its mommy - the US for more milk.

The Pakistanis are trying to get more baksheesh by pitting the US vs China, as most weak nations do to get more and more concessions from the powerful. But the Pakistani elite are not fools and they know the difference between a 'massa' and a 'fliend' -> Massa wins hands down.

The islamists probably won't be any different either. The reason is that the US has maintained its contacts with almost ALL the islamists there, heck, who trained them for Jihad hain ji? OBL - the biggest Jihadi was who's protege hain ji? The non militant Jihadis won't be able to withstand the charm of the west should they ever come into power.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Pranav »

shiv wrote: That means that the US would support a South Vietnam over the North, the Shah of Iran over the mass (egged on by Ayatollahs).
The Shah of Iran was being supported as much as Mubarak is being supported today.
The Chinese are becoming a force only now, but let me make a prediction about China. There is a revolution in Pakistan starting now. That revolution is going against the establishment and army. If China supports that Islamic revolution in Pakistan - they will face hell in Xinjiang. If China supports the Pakistani establishment and "replaces" the US - they will get butt-kicked just as the US is getting butt-kicked now.
What establishment? The Zardaris and Taseers? Or the Hamid Guls and Aslam Begs? The revolution will only disenfranchise the former group, and the Chinese have no problems with the latter group.

This is not to excuse the past behavior of the US. IMHO, the US has not decisively turned away from the Paks as yet. But India needs to remain sensitive to changes in the wind and adjust accordingly.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by shiv »

Johann wrote:
I don't think you should underestimate the Chinese ability to operate in Islamist environments.

A journalist friend in Basrah was bowled over by hundreds of Chinese women hawkers on its streets, wandering around in shorts. Completely unmolested in a place where women don't even think of wearing jeans in public.
Johann-ji. Chinese influence in Iraq is clear for all to see now. Sorry, but the words "Do not underestimate Chinese influence in Islamist environments" is a rhetorical warning that pays little heed to the reality of Chinese influence in existing Islamist environments and ignores that fact that both China and the US are paying the same player in Pakistan - the numerically miniscule establishment without making much headway with the obvious majority. I generally have a lot of agreement with what you say. In this case I differ from your assessment.

Nobody is "underestimating Chinese ability". All that I see all around me is an overestimation of Chinese ability hidden behind the fear that an underestimation might be occurring.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by RajeshA »

Johann ji,

I agree with you. The Chinese and the Islamists can have a wonderful relationship. The beauty about the Chinese are that they do not get into ideological debates with Islam. For the Chinese it is only business, whereas the Indics keep on trying to tell Islam followers how enlightened we are, and the West keeps on trying to tell the Islam followers how barbarian they are. Islam reacts to ideological challenges before it reacts to political challenges. It is ideology that binds the 1.57 billion Muslims together. They can't have any other ideologies nosing around in their societies.

For the Hindu and the Jew, there is intense hatred and there is not much one can do about it. So we will always get hit! For the big imperialists of the world - the British and the Americans, there is a healthy respect, but also animosity. For the Chinese there is only healthy respect, because they do not challenge the Islamists ideologically and secondly they support the Muslims in their efforts to get rid of the Western yoke.

As long as the Chinese keep on killing Uyghurs without challenging Islam ideologically, Muslims can live with China though one would need careful management of this delicate matter. The Muslims don't really give a damn about how the Chinese live - what they wear or what they eat. For all they care, the Chinese are from a different planet, and there it is normal to eat pork, etc.

Published on Feb 17, 2009
Jamaat-e-Islami, Chinese Communist Party ink MoU: The News Pakistan
Jamaat-e-Islami (JI) Pakistan and Chinese ruling Communist Party have signed a memorandum of understanding which says that both parties will collaborate in the fields of justice, development, security and solidarity. Following a weeklong visit to China, the seven members JI delegation signed the memorandum in Beijing, says a message received from JI office.

JI secretary general Syed Munawar Hasan and Secretary Foreign Affairs of Communist Party of China, Lio Hong Sai, signed the memorandum. Both parties have agreed upon four principles including independence, equality, and mutual respect and not to interfere in the internal matters of each country.

The document praised the principled stance of China on Kashmir issue and reiterated that this stance and vital cooperation of China will continue. It also expressed gratitude to China’s support to Pakistan at every world forum and both sides agreed that this valuable diplomatic and political support would continue.

The Memo expressed satisfaction over economic and developmental cooperation between the two countries and assured this journey for regional stability and prosperity will be carried on in future. Both sides assured full support to China’s national and geographical unity, and fully backed China’s stance on Taiwan, Tibet and Xin Jiang issues. JI Pakistan ameer Qazi Hussain Ahmad, Liaqat Baloch, Prof. Mohammad Ibrahim, Sirajul Haq, Abdul Ghaffar Aziz and Asif Luqman Qazi were also present on the occasion.
In fact, the Chinese got the Turkish FM, Davutoğlu to come to Kashgar, Xinjiang, to tell the Uyghurs they ought to behave and let the Turks and Chinese build good relations.

The Islamists appreciate the Chinese no-nonsense brutality and the Uyghur situation is not too much skin off their noses. We are living in a fool's paradise if we think, that should the Islamists in Pakistan come to power, they would treat the Chinese the same way they treat Americans. The Islamists are going to be on a warpath with India, Israel and the West and the Chinese are going to help them by supplying all the weapons they might need for their war. The Chinese have used the same strategy in North Korea, and Pakistan before, and the strategy has worked to their benefit - keep the other big powers down by seeping their strength in some wars against the Islamic Barbarians.

I don't see any harm in pushing the propaganda of Chinese atrocities against the Muslims in East Turkestan or Chinese eating habits. Such propaganda does not hurt India, but there is no reason to be taken in by the effectiveness of such propaganda measures and to build our strategies based on success of such propaganda. The Islamists, be they in Jamaat-e-Islami or outside are far cleverer than to be taken in by such propaganda. Their focus is on other wars.

Also how well the Indics treat Indian Muslims is not really going to have any effect on Islamists outside India. They have their own designs and plans. If Indics treat the Indian Muslims badly, then those agendas receive more recruits and support; if we treat them well, then those agendas still keep rolling.

There are ways and means to break the Chakravyuh but it is not by frying our eggs in the hope that Uyghur screams would be heard or that Chinese pork-eating habits would cause the Islamists to vomit.

If the more rabid Islamists come to power in Islamabad, then the only thing that will change is that the nukes would target the West as well as India, which they already do, but it becomes all the more dangerous for India too because the American leash on Pakistanis would vanish and the Chinese would be more than happy to see Pakistan tightening the screws even more on India. But then the Chinese may decide to give counsel to the Pakistani Islamists as well, that they keep their rhetoric below the critical level, so as to not invite massive American retaliation, without necessarily decreasing the threat level of the Extra-Rabid Pakistani Islamists towards YYY.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by Gerard »

In the Islamic Emirate of England, Held Scotland, Occupied Wales and English-Administered-Ireland, Pakis engage in sociological analysis of their culture....


Grooming of girls by Asian gangs fuelled by unhappy arranged marriages to cousins claims Muslim peer
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by RajeshA »

Gerard wrote:In the Islamic Emirate of England, Held Scotland, Occupied Wales and English-Administered-Ireland, Pakis engage in sociological analysis of their culture....


Grooming of girls by Asian gangs fuelled by unhappy arranged marriages to cousins claims Muslim peer
One has to give it to the Pakistanis, they know how to turn the tables. Now instead of all the sexually abused White girls, it is their abusers, the Pakistanis who deserve our sympathies and pity. The poor chaps have had terrible marriages! :roll:

Stay tuned:
Next Khabar: The Pakistanis raped the white women psychologists also who were sent to look into their psychological problems due to unhappy marriages.

The Pakis need even more sympathy! :rotfl:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by anupmisra »

Ich bin ein pakistanien
I am pakistan! Reproduced in full (the article, not the pakistanian):
Yes, and it’s because of the way I am.

I think I love my country, I’m not sure. I am a hypocrite. I am first to criticize it when I see its troubles, but not the first to act and do something about those troubles. And that, dear readers, is what Pakistan is all about. I quote Jinnah every once in a while to vocalize my supposed patriotism, but I don’t necessary follow his ideology. I pray five times a day and I fast during Ramadan but after Iftar I curse on the streets and lech at my friend’s sister.

I am from Karachi, and I hate Lahore. I am from Lahore, and I hate Pindi. I am from Balochistan, and I hate the rest. But collectively, I am Pakistan, so I just hate India. I hate India because they are my enemies. I know that because I read it on the Internet. Every time India achieves something, I pull out random statistics of banal information comparing how the Internet speeds in Pakistan are better, or how some obscure scientist developed something before India did. If India beats me in cricket, I make myself feel better with Facebook pages called “India may beat us at cricket, but at least we’re better looking” and get 300,000 people to “Like” it. I make fun of everything in India, but I ape the stuff I secretly like but would never admit to – like their films, their music and their game shows. I pay my singers very little and gatecrash their concerts so they don’t make money, then curse them when go across the border to greener pastures, and then beam with pride and tell everyone “he’s Pakistani” once he makes it in India.

And I hate America. But I want to go there. I don’t want to work too hard. But I still want to go there, because there are girls on the beaches wearing bikinis, and they will have sex with us. Those shameless whores. Thank God we keep them out of our puristic society. And I want to make money in America. Somehow. I hate that Indians are making it in America. What do they have that I don’t? Global CEO of Citibank – Indian. Head of Adobe – Indian. Head of Pepsi – Indian. And so many more. It makes my blood boil. I think I will play the “good looks” card again, because I am Pakistan. Those people must be feeding money under the table. Maybe I can make a crafty remark about their over-populated race. I’m sure I will get my friends laughing.

I am Pakistan, and that is what makes me arrogant. I can have an attitude. I might be doing well, just slightly well, but my head will be in the clouds. I might have just crossed 50 runs while I’m chasing a near impossible target of 287 in Bangalore, but after my next boundary, I am going to act smart and ask the bowler to “go fetch the ball”. I may be an album old, but I’m going to get cocky even while standing next to more accomplished musicians and personalities.

I am Pakistan and I am upset. Foreign policies prevent me from visiting their country. I can’t get visas, even though I am well traveled. Do I deserve it? No. I didn’t personally plant bombs anywhere. But you know what? I am also Islamic Rage Boy. That’s right. I scream at the smallest of atrocities and scream even louder at the largest ones. As far as doing something about them is concerned, I shout. I create groups and we protest. I am proficient at creating banners and signboards for people to carry during these parades of protest.

I am Pakistan and I am gun violence. I am the children that die and I am the women that are abused. I am the men that are pulled into war. I am Islam. In fact, I am more Islam than the rest of you. I use Islam, I use its scripture and I use its lessons and twist it to my own cause. I accuse those that are bad leaders and ignore (or kill) those that could do well. I love my country, yet my only way to express that is by hating everyone else. If you too are Pakistan, then you are not a brother. You are a competitor.

I am Pakistan, and I have no shame. The floods have ravaged my country and I am accusing Zardari of being ignorant. But, I too, am ignorant. I am the people that are sending aid to the unfortunate victims, and I am the people that are looting those trucks carrying the aid. Although I am Pakistan,I am just one person – I can’t change the world. I can’t help all the victims. And that is my belief. But, should anyone post cartoons of our Prophet, I will come together will all my Pakistani brethren (in a docile manner) and call to ban them.

And lastly, dear friends, I am the men, the women, the children and the law-enforcers that stood by making videos and clicking pictures when those boys in Sialkot were served a very strange yet common brand of our own vigilante justice. I, therefore, am a barbarian. And barbarianism is me. Just like load-shedding is me. Just like cricket is me. Just like corruption is me and just like extremism is me.

I am Pakistan. Yet, I am proud. And I ask you – should I be?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Dec. 28, 2

Post by anupmisra »

Gerard wrote:In the Islamic Emirate of England, Held Scotland, Occupied Wales and English-Administered-Ireland, Pakis engage in sociological analysis of their culture....
Grooming of girls by Asian gangs fuelled by unhappy arranged marriages to cousins claims Muslim peer
Please note:
Lord Ahmed of Rotherham, Britain’s first Muslim peer, is the first politician to make a link between first-cousin marriages and sex crimes by Pakistani men.
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