Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2011

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 25 Jul 2011 10:00

Singha wrote:what were the reasons why Hindus chose to remain behind in TSP even as news of the bloodbath during 1947 was spreading?

were they too poor to move or were too rich to leave it all behind?

Apart from extremely marginal numbers who stayed due to idiosyncratic reasons, the only significant number of Hindus who stayed were in Sindh. Tharparkar district had a Hindu majority but went to Pakistan. It was an extremely backward and impoverished district (still is) in very harsh terrain. For many of these folks, whose economic linkages to even the rest of Sindh were flimsy, partition would have passed without their even knowing. Since there was no significant immigration there (there was nothing to immigrate to!), there wasn't the displacing one saw in Punjab and other places. People might have felt some comfort in numbers, even if that view was short sighted.

The other set of Hindus who stayed behind were those in some of the urban areas of Sindh. They had again been a majority in many of the cities (Karachi, Hyderabad) and had some false security. These were well off and hence were able to fend for themselves better, both in the initial period and to some extent even today.

So in a sense, you characterization (only the poorest and richest stayed behind) is correct, but only in the case of Sindh. Even there, migration happened albeit slowly, of the urban rich. Only very small numbers were left behind by the time of the 1965 war (until when migration continued), other than the numbers in Tharparkar of course. In Punjab and NWFP, there was a mass scale and sudden cleansing of everybody, rich and poor. In Balochistan, there was some initial feeling of security before the province was annexed forcibly by Pakistan, but afterwards, this vanished quickly. The numbers were very small to begin with. In Bengal, there continued to be significant Hindus even in the 1951 census, but there was a gradual reduction of the Hindu percentage, both due to migration and due to differential birth rates. It has not stabilized till date.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 25 Jul 2011 10:07

Kanishka wrote:Pakistan-Japan have centuries old links through Buddhism

http://ftpapp.app.com.idiot/en_/index.p ... 0&Itemid=2

(Replace idiot with pk in the url above).

Pakistan is a cradle of civilizations and has centuries-old links with Japan through Buddhism, that have continued to strengthen and flourish over the years, Pakistan’s Ambassador to Japan Noor Muhammad Jadmani said. He was speaking to over a hundred members of NHK culture centers of Aoyama, Kashiwa, Utsunomia and Tochigi prefectures about the rich historical past of Pakistan at Tokyo. The Ambassador said the land that now comprises present day Pakistan was the centre of Buddhism, from where it spread to South East Asian countries including Japan.
He said though Pakistan-Japan diplomatic relations were established in 1952, but culturally the people of the two countries had centuries old strong bonds of friendship and understanding.

Did he mention that through Taliban, Paki also helped destroy the Bamian Buddha ?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Jul 2011 10:10

Sridhar wrote: Apart
from extremely marginal numbers who stayed due to idiosyncratic
reasons, the only significant number of Hindus who stayed were in
Sindh.

SNIP......
In Bengal, there continued to be
significant Hindus even in the 1951 census, but there was a gradual
reduction of the Hindu percentage, both due to migration and due to
differential birth rates. It has not stabilized till date.

A well written post.

Sudip · Post by **Sudip** » 25 Jul 2011 10:52

Oslo attacker feared ‘Pakistanisation’ of Europe

KARACHI:
Anders Behring Breivik, the Norwegian terrorist who killed more than 90 people in two attacks in Oslo, was mortally terrified of the idea of several ‘mini Pakistans’ appearing all over the map of Europe. In a 1,600-page manifesto titled ‘2083: A European Declaration of Independence’, Breivik laid out a stark picture of the future of Europe, citing poor human rights in Pakistan as the fate of the continent.
In his doomsday scenario for Europe, Breivik predicts that several ‘mini-Pakistans’ would be created all over Europe by 2083, one in each country due to ‘Lebanon-style’ conflicts. “It could be similar to the division of India after World War II, with the creation of one or several Islamic ‘Pakistan’ enclaves,” he says.
While Breivik’s rhetoric against Muslim immigration into Europe is not unusual, he cites many names that might be familiar to Pakistanis, including Allama Muhammad Iqbal and Maulana Abul Ala Maududi, as well as prominent human rights activist Hina Jilani and Dawn columnist Irfan Hussain.
He seems to believe that Iqbal, in particular, was sympathetic to communism and views multiculturalism as a Marxist concept. He quotes Iqbal as saying “Islam equals communism plus Allah.”
Breivik also claims that Pakistan is systematically annihilating all non-Muslim communities. He claimed that Hindu girls are being forced to convert to Islam in Sindh. In this context he even quotes Hina Jilani as saying: “Have you ever heard of an Indian Muslim girl being forced to embrace Hinduism? It’s Muslims winning by intimidation.”
He goes on to describe the situation for Christians in Pakistan as being no better, citing Father Emmanuel Asi of the Theological Institute for Laity in Lahore as saying in 2007 that Pakistani Christians are frequently denied equal rights.
Jamaat-e-Islami founder Abul Ala Maududi is also quoted in the manifesto, though in a manner that would imply that the stated objective of an Islamic state is to kill or subdue all non-Muslims around the world.
Breivik seems to be a fan of Daily Times columnist Razi Azmi, whom he calls “one of the more sensible columnists of Pakistan”. He mentions one of Azmi’s pieces where the columnist asks whether it was possible to imagine a Muslim converting to Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism in a Muslim country, using it to support his view of Islam as an intolerant religion.
He also cites Dawn’s Irfan Hussain’s column criticising Hizb u-Tahrir’s vision of a caliphate.
His ire against Pakistanis and Muslims seems to have at least partial origin in personal experience. He speaks at length about his childhood best friend, a Pakistani Muslim immigrant to Norway who, despite having lived several years in Europe still appeared to resent Norway and Norwegian society. “Not because he was jealous… but because it represented the exact opposite of Islamic ways,” Breivik conjectures.
The inability of Muslim immigrants to assimilate into European society seems to bother him, which he blames on Muslim parents not allowing their children to adopt European ways. He also asks why Muslim girls are considered ‘off-limits’ to everyone, including Muslim boys, and why Muslim men view ethnic Norwegian women as ‘whores’.
He also seems to believe that the Muslims in Europe who collect government benefits view it as a form of jizya, a medieval Islamic tax charged on non-Muslim minorities.
He rails against multiculturalism, which he blames for making immigration too easy for Muslims in Europe. “When the veil of multiculturalism disappears, it will be Pakistanis who live in London, Turks who live in Berlin, Algerians who live in Paris and Moroccans who live in Amsterdam. And then the show begins,” he says.
That show, he says, is a dramatic demographic shift that he calls the ‘Pakistanisation of Europe’.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 25 Jul 2011 11:33

Supply to Afghanistan via Pakistan reduced to 35%
At this rate, it won't be very long before the Pakis are going to lose their "supply route" card. Then the fun starts...

This is a considerable achievement given that till recently it was more than 70 per cent and this was considered to be one of the main bargaining points for Pakistan with the United States.

This figure of 35 per cent is expected to come further down in the coming months as the Pentagon is working to increase its supply to Afghanistan through the Northern Distribution network.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 25 Jul 2011 11:58

http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=105094

An article from Cuckooland

Building a case against Pakistan
Situationer
Dr Jassim Taqui

Viewing Operation Geronimo on 2nd May, it seems that the clandestine and mysterious operation was a prelude to justify forming US-India axis against Pakistan and People’s Republic of China. The Obama administration will also justify involving India in Afghanistan. In this regards, the Americans are attempting to convince India to deploy an infantry division on Pakistan’s western border. This will pave the way for conducting US-Indo joint military action against other targets in FAT under the disguise of hot pursuit of the remnants of Al-Qaeda and Taliban. The duo may do the unthinkable including faking events to malign Pakistan. The obvious objective of the US-Indo axis is to denuclearize and demilitarize Pakistan in order to encircle and disintegrate China a la former Soviet Union. Evidently, China is a formidable country and it is not easy to penetrate its defences since Pakistan stands in the way. Therefore, a scheme is planned to undo Pakistan.

To denuclearlise and demilitarise would be our dream come true, and possible a good thing for the people of Pakistan too. But to disintegrate China?

Seems like freedom in Cuckooland is an opiate, to write such gibberish.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 Jul 2011 12:03

who are the warlords who control access into northern afghanistan?
panjshir valley, over the amu darya? with the logistics route shifting in this direction, will the local lords here have much greater power (and supplies - one way or another)? where do these folks fit in the emerging power equation?

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 25 Jul 2011 12:54

Lalmohan wrote:who are the warlords who control access into northern afghanistan?
panjshir valley, over the amu darya? with the logistics route shifting in this direction, will the local lords here have much greater power (and supplies - one way or another)? where do these folks fit in the emerging power equation?

From my rudimentary understanding, the main warlords along Salang Highway (old Soviet logistic route) are Mohammed Fahim (tajik), Abdul Rashid Dostum (uzbek but controls Mazar-e-Sharif i think) and Atta Mohammad Noor.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 Jul 2011 13:24

maybe the grand plan calls for a recasting of afghan and pak borders...

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 25 Jul 2011 13:41

Pakistan bars US embassy staff from entering Peshawar

WASHINGTON: In an action that would further strain US-Pakistan relations after the killing of Osama bin Laden on its soil by American special forces in May, Islamabad has denied permission to the US embassy staff to enter Peshawar.

Quoting US and international aid officials, the Washington Post Sunday said Pakistani authorities have repeatedly denied permission to US embassy employees to enter Peshawar to attend meetings or replace workers at the US Consulate in the city over the past 10 days. Most Pakistanis view the US consulate in Peshawar as a front for CIA operations.

"The widely publicized episodes in Peshawar threaten to become another flash point in a frayed bilateral relationship that US officials had hoped was improving, after fatal shootings by a CIA contractor and the US commando raid that killed Osama bin Laden,'' the report said.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 25 Jul 2011 13:43

Fresh Karachi violence leaves 44 dead in three days

Reuters) - Fresh political and ethnic violence gripped Pakistan's commercial capital over the past three days, leaving up to 44 people dead and taking the death toll for July to 339, city police said Monday.

Most of the weekend's casualties were reported in the city's eastern Malir, Landhi and adjoining areas -- a multi-ethnic, lower middle class neighborhood.

"We have identified the people and at least 200 police commandos will be dispatched to search and arrest these people," said Naeem Boroka, a senior police official in Karachi's eastern area.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 25 Jul 2011 14:10

>>Evidently, China is a formidable country and it is not easy to penetrate its defences since Pakistan stands in the way.

This is simply another way of pretending to face up to Amirkhan, when the reality staring Beijing in the face is Islamabad's rear and the open palm the Pakisatan is holding with its hand stretched backward.

Pakistan is still hoping to get back into America's good books and thus keeps offering "last chance" after "last chance" - like a spurned woman trying to ingratiate herself back into the disdainful lover's good books. Like I've said before many times, Pakistan has welcomed Amirkhan with open legs many times before and the latter knows all she will do, so her open arms now don't have much attraction. And her readiness to entertain others, even threatening to do so, has also resulted in increasing contempt. The way back, if there is one, will be hard. There will be no vaseline. Pakistan will have to surrender to Amirkhan's whims in toto and in gubo.

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Jul 2011 14:16

TSP sure has made a good name for itself worldwide ( and somehow finds its name in the Norway attacks also

) :

Oslo attacker feared creation of several 'mini Pakistans' in Europe

The Norwegian terrorist who killed over 90 people in two recent attacks in Oslo, was terrified of the idea of several ‘mini Pakistans’ appearing all over the map of Europe.

A 1,600-page manifesto titled ‘2083: A European Declaration of Independence’, written by Anders Behring Breivik, showed a picture of the future of Europe, citing poor human rights in Pakistan as the fate of the continent.

In his doomsday scenario for Europe, Breivik predicted that several ‘mini-Pakistans’ would be created all over Europe by 2083, one in each country due to ‘Lebanon-style’ conflicts, the Express Tribune reports.

“It could be similar to the division of India after World War II, with the creation of one or several Islamic ‘Pakistan’ enclaves,” he said.

Breivik also claimed that Pakistan is systematically annihilating all non-Muslim communities. He claimed that Hindu girls are being forced to convert to Islam in Sindh.

The inability of Muslim immigrants to assimilate into European society seems to bother him, which he blamed on Muslim parents not allowing their children to adopt European ways.

He also asked why Muslim girls are considered ‘off-limits’ to everyone, including Muslim boys, and why Muslim men view ethnic Norwegian women as ‘whores’.

He railed against multiculturalism, which he blamed for making immigration too easy for Muslims in Europe, the paper said.

“When the veil of multiculturalism disappears, it will be Pakistanis who live in London, Turks who live in Berlin, Algerians who live in Paris and Moroccans who live in Amsterdam. And then the show begins,” he said.

He called this ‘dramatic demographic shift’ the ‘Pakistanisation of Europe’.

Even loony Norwegians know the fate of Londinistan, it seems.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 Jul 2011 14:22

Manish Jain · Post by **Manish Jain** » 25 Jul 2011 14:31

I don't think its a good idea to link likes of him with BRF.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Jul 2011 14:33

Lalmohan wrote:brevik sounds like he's been a lurker on BRF...

The information posted on his blogs is available everywhere, I dont think there is any connection whatsoever with BRF and the murderer.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Jul 2011 14:46

Any person with a modicum of analytical abilities will reach the same conclusion as Brevik. The difference will be how he deals with it. Act like him and hurt your own cause in the long run. Or build coalitions and pressure groups to force the assimilition of the musilim migration and make them more Norvegian.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Jul 2011 14:56

Lalmohan wrote:.. sounds like he's been a lurker on BRF...

Lalmohan ji,

whatever be the case, let's not try to make needless associations here. The man killed a hundred people. We don't want any credit in his 'achievements'!

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Jul 2011 14:57

brevik sounds like he's been a lurker on BRF...

Irrespective of what he did, many of his concerns have been expressed here and many other places in many rational forums. How he went about trying to get change he desired goes without saying is senseless and inhuman. But in no way it implies his concerns are not commonplace. His anger was not even diverted against Muslims, it was against liberals in his society. Much like the anger and hate that is visible here against Psecs. What he quoted on the killing fields of the Hindu Kush and the Islamization of India is from Will Durant who mentions the biggest killings in the history of humanity were done by Islamic hordes across the Hindu Kush. Fears of Pakistanizaton of many areas have been expressed openly. Not recognizing that link may be dangerous. Many more may be tempted to use the same or similar means he has employed to express ire at liberals and Psecs.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Jul 2011 15:15

The parallels are obvious, but it is extremely foolish to underline them, when more than a 100 families in Norway are crying over their loved ones.

It is extremely foolish to try to build associations with a mass-murderer. Think pragmatically. BRF is not a loony corner of cyberspace, and we should not try to put ourselves in that corner!

There is no "irrespective of what he did ..."!

We should not adopt him, or glorify him, or for the moment imply similarity of ideology! We discuss him in the European context and what it means for Europe!

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Jul 2011 15:20

Poaks get touchy over "neeyat":
Don't question our 'neeyat': Pakistan tells India

Malik said Pakistan government's appeal to allow it to take voice samples of the accused was rejected by a lower court and he had discussed the issue with his Indian counterpart P Chidambaram.

"What is important is to go through the legal channel. So in the first level in the court, it was rejected -- that government was not allowed to take samples of voice. Then we move to the next stage -- the higher court.

Making it clear that his government's 'neeyat' (intention) was very clear about bringing the perpetrators of 26/11 Mumbai attacks to justice, the Pakistani Minister said his government will "exhaust" all possible means to give voice samples to India.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 25 Jul 2011 15:21

From the BBC:
Pakistan city of Karachi hit by factional 'bloodbath'

At least 24 people have been killed in the southern Pakistani port city of Karachi in violence since Saturday, police and hospital sources say. (Odd that they aren't counting from Friday.)
...
...
Meanwhile the administration has banned pillion riding on motorbikes to reduce the number of drive-by shootings. (Looks like a lot of people and goats are going to be walking for a while.)

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 25 Jul 2011 15:32

Pratyush wrote:Any person with a modicum of analytical abilities will reach the same conclusion as Brevik. The difference will be how he deals with it. Act like him and hurt your own cause in the long run. Or build coalitions and pressure groups to force the assimilition of the musilim migration and make them more Norvegian.

What he did was extremely illogical besides evil. It is equivalent to shooting Indian kids to protest against hurriat.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Jul 2011 15:50

Pratyush wrote:Any person with a modicum of analytical abilities will reach the same conclusion as Brevik. The difference will be how he deals with it. Act like him and hurt your own cause in the long run. Or build coalitions and pressure groups to force the assimilition of the musilim migration and make them more Norvegian.

First of all this OT, so my last post in this thread

I cannot see any logic in bombing civilians and shooting 87 kids in cold blood, what purpose does that serve??? Which cause has benefitted from actions. I see him only as madman and a mass murderer and has no connections with what we advocate. Only personal in GHQ rawalpindi who have mounted 26/11, Kalunchuk, attack of swaminarayan temple, 7/11 , 1993 bomb blasts etc think like him.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Jul 2011 15:54

gakakkad wrote:
What he did was extremely illogical besides evil. It is equivalent to shooting Indian kids to protest against hurriat.

Exactly, and he has hurt his cause by mass murdering his fellow country men/ women.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Jul 2011 15:57

Aditya_V wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Any person with a modicum of analytical abilities will reach the same conclusion as Brevik. The difference will be how he deals with it. Act like him and hurt your own cause in the long run. Or build coalitions and pressure groups to force the assimilition of the musilim migration and make them more Norvegian.
First of all this OT, so my last post in this thread

I cannot see any logic in bombing civilians and shooting 87 kids in cold blood, what purpose does that serve??? Which cause has benefitted from actions. I see him only as madman and a mass murderer and has no connections with what we advocate. Only personal in GHQ rawalpindi who have mounted 26/11, Kalunchuk, attack of swaminarayan temple, 7/11 , 1993 bomb blasts etc think like him.

I guess the second part of the post which spoke of hurting his cause as a result of his actions was was missed.

Any way this is not relevant to the thread.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Jul 2011 16:44

Folks, let's stop discussing this Norwegian lunatic here.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 25 Jul 2011 16:45

gakakkad wrote:noobie question - This chap vir sanghvi is pro Indian or just another WKK/Dhoti roy type ?

He started as a sickular, dynasty worshipping, yindoo bashing WKK.
He was also involved in Radia gate and got kicked out of yindoostan times.

Of late, even before Radiagate got exposed, he was turning into a more nationalistic type of writer questioning Paki secular logic about Pakistan.

I think he was one of those intelligent presswallah but DDMized by starting in Yindoostan times which is nothing but a sh1tty dynasty worshipping/ serving newspaper. One of the editors/owners is CON party Rajya sabha member. But he started questioning WKK and sickular logic. May that's why they got rid of him so easily when radiagate blew up.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Jul 2011 16:45

The parallels are obvious, but it is extremely foolish to underline them

Rajesh Ji, reply in thread on Christian fundamentalism. OT here.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 25 Jul 2011 17:28

SSridhar wrote:Folks, let's stop discussing this Norwegian lunatic here.

+1. The only thing to be highlighted is the Kasab-esque bravery. 1 armed jacka$$ = 94 unarmed unsuspecting civilians.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 25 Jul 2011 17:41

ManuT wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Folks, let's stop discussing this Norwegian lunatic here.
+1. The only thing to be highlighted is the Kasab-esque bravery. 1 armed jacka$$ = 94 unarmed unsuspecting civilians.

Kasab was not alone, saar.

He had the other moron to watch his back.

But I take your point, it takes a certain kind of bravado to shoot people and walk around the same place.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 25 Jul 2011 17:45

Guys, enough about the Norwegian on this thread... There is a separate thread for this discussion.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Jul 2011 17:47

Pakistan is not inferior to India - Hina Khar

Pakistan would not accept the hegemony of any country in the region as it is "by no means inferior to India", Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar, who is scheduled to go to New Delhi Tuesday, has said.

"Pakistan's role in the region is by no means inferior to India," she told mediapersons at the Lahore Airport on her return from the ministerial meeting of the ASEAN regional forum Sunday.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's had said during her visit to India that New Delhi must play a more assertive role in Asia.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 Jul 2011 17:49

(pakistan =/= inferior) =/= (pakistan's (role) == inferior! (India));

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 25 Jul 2011 18:17

SSridhar wrote:Pakistan is not inferior to India - Hina Khar
Pakistan would not accept the hegemony of any country in the region as it is "by no means inferior to India", Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar, who is scheduled to go to New Delhi Tuesday, has said.

"Pakistan's role in the region is by no means inferior to India," she told mediapersons at the Lahore Airport on her return from the ministerial meeting of the ASEAN regional forum Sunday.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's had said during her visit to India that New Delhi must play a more assertive role in Asia.

Oh poor Hina Khar. She is mistaking terrorism for superiority. Terror is their biggest export.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Jul 2011 18:21

Pakistan is not donkey's a$$ - Hina Khar

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 25 Jul 2011 18:30

rajanb wrote:
Oh poor Hina Khar. She is mistaking terrorism for superiority. Terror is their biggest export.

She's already mouthing the paki army's words!!

She will come, accept the bouquet, smile prettily and leave all the heavy lifting to Salman Bashir and his poisonous gang.

We will continue to deal with Alibaba and the forty thieves onlee.

rajithn · Post by **rajithn** » 25 Jul 2011 18:57

[quote="ranjbe
Brilliant. This article deserves a place in the honor rolls of BR. Admins, please consider adding this to the startup posting of new TSP thread.[/quote]
What is really amusing is a comment by a Paki reader who says:

Simply Brilliant!! ..

Request the author to attempt a similar piece on India…

They have been so brainwashed that a knee-jerk equal-equal is a given[/quote]

Unfortunately, these are in all likelihood not pakis. If you follow any of the articles by Nadeem Paracha (I think I spelt that wrong) or Najam Sethi or any of the other Pakis, there are usually comments from a range of Indian readers pining to do their == and pleading to the author that they consider writing a "similar" piece on India. Some go on to mention that "India lacks such objective writers.."!!!!!!!

As has been mentioned before, we dont need too many enemies. We have millions of "useful idiots". Some make it to powerful positions but there are multitudes who lust for India-Paki ==!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Jul 2011 19:02

Pakistan is not a Venereal Disease - Hina Khar

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Jul 2011 19:07

SSridhar wrote:Pakistan is not inferior to India - Hina Khar
Pakistan would not accept the hegemony of any country in the region as it is "by no means inferior to India", Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar, who is scheduled to go to New Delhi Tuesday, has said.

"Pakistan's role in the region is by no means inferior to India," she told mediapersons at the Lahore Airport on her return from the ministerial meeting of the ASEAN regional forum Sunday.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's had said during her visit to India that New Delhi must play a more assertive role in Asia.

It is my experience that when some one speaks of not being inferior to some one else, they are inferior to that some one else. Otherwise they don't need to speak of inferiority / superiority.