India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

[chaanakya]

Nuclear energy can be used only when it is converted as electricity

Nuclear propulsion is already a reality. In Nuclear marine propulsion, both steam-turbine as well as turbo-electric propulsions are already in use.

I think Nuclear (steam trubine) propelled heavy railroad transport (goods train) used to be a hot topic some time ago. At that stage of nuclear technology development, reduction in effective pay-load due to the large weight of shielding required around the nuclear reactor, plus the likely consequences of an accident, retarded development of this technology. With modern highly compact nuclear reactors this idea may be reborn again. On the flip side, highly compact nuclear reactors are likely to have a greater damage potential in the event of an accident, as a result of greater energy content per unit volume in the core. This issue still needs to be overcome through development of damage-proof nuclear reactor core designs.

If I may do a little bit of star gazing, I think the day when underground, contained, silo-based nuclear explosions are used to place space craft out of earth's atmosphere, on their way towards inter-planetary travel (or to launch ballistic missiles) may not be very far off!! Fission-boosted - Fusion-boosted - Fission-boosted rocket /missile launch!

Aren t we talking of everyday use of energy/electricity for Aam Admi, sir jee?

[Amber G.]

First - It is odd and unhelpful to see constant personal attacks and innuendos like "Nuclear jehadis and bookish sidekick of great scientists , "farticle fyzicysts" (Eg here or here

Brfadmin may like to show some leadership here.

Second - There is some discussion about conversion of energy which, let me put it this way.. absurd and bringing ridicule to our forum.
(May be those errors ought to be corrected )

Wrt to NPP using energy , but not in electric energy form, Kundakulam has desalination program.. for aam adami.
Some details can be seen here: http://www.inderscience.com/search/inde ... c_id=28862

[Amber G.]

>>>Also wanted to add that in today's age, most forms of energy can be converted from one to other, i.e. gas can be either for direct heating or electricity generation. Ditto for diesel...
<<<

unkil jee , you stated something which resembles a corollary of the 1st laa of thermodynamics .. energy can be converted from one form to another...But I am interested in knowing the context you quoted..

gakakkad - Of course you are right, "today's age" has nothing to do with it, energy can (and normally do/did/will do) change from one form to other...even your wood stove converts chemical energy into heat...

Nothing special about nuclear .. actually normally nuclear energy is converted into heat which gets converted into electricity..but even in 1950's there were nuclear reactors which supplied some part of energy as heat to neighboring fuel reprocessing plants.. and there were NPP's which supplied heat to homes etc..(IIRC, Sweden had one in 60's which supplied heat to Stockholm suburbs)..Today the direct heat use is probably only a few percentage of total energy but its nothing new.. India, Canada, China, Japan, Russia.. all use it to some extent see previous post about DAE's pilot program for desalination ..

And of course, as S said just a few post above - Nuclear propulsion is already a reality in many nuclear submarines.

[Theo_Fidel]

And of course, as S said just a few post above - Nuclear propulsion is already a reality in many nuclear submarines.

By that standard coal is Solar energy too.

[gakakkad]

no one denied use of nuclear propulsion or solar propulsion or any other type.. I clearly stated that we should demarcate electricity for easier comparison between countries because people were continuing with polemics like India has "lower heating requirements , lesser distances than US etc.." But since India does have refrigeration and cooling requirements tv and computer requirements similar to other country we cannot say that we have less requirement of transmitted electricity..


Someone talked of Hydrogen economy..Now the Indian CHTR is a highly efficient way of producing hydrogen ..

http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/Meetings/P ... gramme.pdf

Page 6 of the above presentation..

I think people should stop using polemics like "nuclear lobbyist" etc...

[gakakkad]

effeciency of electrolysis of water is 65-70% and not 95%..

What is the cost of such electrolysers? Large commercial electrolysers cost between 500-1000 DM/kWel but smaller plants are considerably more expensive. The smallest 1 kWel electrolysers can cost up to 10,000 DM with the price only falling to the 500 DM/kWel figure in the MW range. Operating efficiencies lie in the 50-60% range for the smaller electrolysers and around 65-70% for the larger plants.

[Amber G.]

Dup removed

[Amber G.]

Coal (or most of other form of energy) are all from solar energy.
The part which was clarified was the quote below makes no sense.

... Nuclear energy can be used only when it is converted as electricity. So two way linkage is absent

...


In many practical cases, including , as S's posted, in some nuclear submarines, heat (converted from nuclear) is directly used, without it being converted into electricity...

[gakakkad]

IMHO in the future NPPs would provide transmitted electricity and also help produce hydrogen which can be used to power motor vehicles.. That may be a sustainable way to run things..

[PratikDas]

no one denied use of nuclear propulsion or solar propulsion or any other type.. I clearly stated that we should demarcate electricity for easier comparison between countries because people were continuing with polemics like India has "lower heating requirements , lesser distances than US etc.." But since India does have refrigeration and cooling requirements tv and computer requirements similar to other country we cannot say that we have less requirement of transmitted electricity..

+1
Spot on.

[chaanakya]

First - It is odd and unhelpful to see constant personal attacks and innuendos like "Nuclear jehadis and bookish sidekick of great scientists , "farticle fyzicysts" (Eg here or here

Brfadmin may like to show some leadership here.

Second - There is some discussion about conversion of energy which, let me put it this way.. absurd and bringing ridicule to our forum.
(May be those errors ought to be corrected )

Wrt to NPP using energy , but not in electric energy form, Kundakulam has desalination program.. for aam adami.
Some details can be seen here: http://www.inderscience.com/search/inde ... c_id=28862

Its all for real world people ,as Amit ji once clarified , not for BRF esteemed members. In fact use of such terms a Jehadi and Champion and Lobby in the context of Nuclear, coal etc started by Amit ji. Admin action should have started long back. In fact your posts are full of inuendos especially linking search results for my posts.


Regarding Energy/electricity issue in the context of Nuclear power, the discussion was on electricity. Yes one can use heat as well. But the point was Gas or petrol or coal could be easily used in either form while Nuclear would be difficult.
May be Scientists could make Nuclear powered planes , cars , ACs, Fans, TVs , refidgerators , water heaters cooking sappliances, Electric houshold appliances , computers, torchlight and calculators one day.

But discussion is primarily on electricity which is the main objective for Nuclear energy.

[chaanakya]

no one denied use of nuclear propulsion or solar propulsion or any other type.. I clearly stated that we should demarcate electricity for easier comparison between countries because people were continuing with polemics like India has "lower heating requirements , lesser distances than US etc.." But since India does have refrigeration and cooling requirements tv and computer requirements similar to other country we cannot say that we have less requirement of transmitted electricity..


Someone talked of Hydrogen economy..Now the Indian CHTR is a highly efficient way of producing hydrogen ..

http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/Meetings/P ... gramme.pdf

Page 6 of the above presentation..

I think people should stop using polemics like "nuclear lobbyist" etc...

Looks like Hydrogen economy= either nuclear or renewable.
There is no harm in exploring varoius options to meet India's Primary energy requirement.

[Sanku]

no one denied use of nuclear propulsion or solar propulsion or any other type.. I clearly stated that we should demarcate electricity for easier comparison between countries because people were continuing with polemics like India has "lower heating requirements , lesser distances than US etc.." But since India does have refrigeration and cooling requirements tv and computer requirements similar to other country we cannot say that we have less requirement of transmitted electricity..

+1
Spot on.

I dont understand whats "right" here. What sense does it make to not take a variety of factors and only consider a handful while discussing?

We might as well not discuss anything especially if any number of factors are arbitrarily dropped since they complicate the discussion.

[Theo_Fidel]

effeciency of electrolysis of water is 65-70% and not 95%..

BAM! Gakakkad you should know better.
In electrolysis efficiency refers to conversion efficiency. Distinct from system efficiency. I deliberately baited and google chacha bit, hard! I was hoping a certain other bureaucrat would bite but....

HHV of Hydrogen is actually 38.96 kwh per kg of H2. So my assumed value of 70 kwh per kg gives a system efficiency of 38.96/70 ~ 55% efficiency. Anyone who has access to the catalog and price list information could tell you this. This is amusing but tells me immediately there is a lack of understanding of the equipment and manufacturing processes involved. I have had the same difficulty with all the other Jihadis (right now calling for admin predator strike) on this forum. Like herding cats.....

Also how is that Second law of capital (T) violation coming along.
------------------------------------------------

BTW for heat to be used to do 'work' it must be converted. There is no such thing as directly using heat to do 'work'. Most of India has no need for environmental heat even if Jihadi's living in cold climates refuse to realize this possibility. So now we need nuclear power plants for hot water.
---------------------------------

It is not a question of what future requirements are but what efficiency the economy can operate at. Our Sub tropical economy has the opportunity and ability to function very very efficiently. In fact this is happening already. This is particularly necessary as we not naturally endowed with great amounts of energy. Anyone who claims that we can ever be swimming in energy is being untruthful. AFAIK only the nuclear types are claiming this. GOI itself does not. If we think that we need to get 4000 GWh of capacity before we can become rich we are dooming ourselves before we even begin.
------------------------------------------------

WRT the CHTR we had a long series of post on what it is and how far along the design is. AFAIK the CHTR is designed to produce small amounts of Hydrogen and then Ammonia fuel. Not use Hydrogen directly. Storage of Hydrogen gas is a challenge in remote areas. It is most definitely not and economical or efficient process. It is only being developed for areas where no other options are possible. AS India develops and builds roads such areas a shrinking. The CHTR is very likely to find it self stranded at that point.

[amit]

First - It is odd and unhelpful to see constant personal attacks and innuendos like "Nuclear jehadis and bookish sidekick of great scientists , "farticle fyzicysts" (Eg here or here

Its all for real world people ,as Amit ji once clarified , not for BRF esteemed members. In fact use of such terms a Jehadi and Champion and Lobby in the context of Nuclear, coal etc started by Amit ji. Admin action should have started long back. In fact your posts are full of inuendos especially linking search results for my posts.

Chaanakya,

I see you're really missing me (this is the second ad hoc reference to me by you on as many pages, even though I've been out of the discussion for several pages), or maybe you miss the doses of reality checks that I provide to all the academic balderdash and back of the envelope calculations that are dished out! Don't worry I'll be back soon, once I've tackled some real world issues related to what I do for a living. Till then sit tight.

However, missing me is one thing and presenting a correct perspective is another altogether. I’m disappointed at your poor attempt at self justification to Amber's very valid objection to shameless personal attacks by dragging my name in.

You’re post-facto attempts at justification show very poor taste. If you think I’ve done something wrong, report it instead of using it as a justification of doing something out of the line yourself (or some of your pals).

Regarding the use of the word Lobby, yes I've very extensively talked about Coal Lobby propaganda. When you took it personally I told you very clearly I did not think you or anyone on BRF is part of the Lobby. (I'm sorry if I disappointed you by saying so).

And as far as I can recall I've never used the term “Nuclear Jehadis” (and if you can't prove that I actually did, I hope you realize what that makes you). Yes I've freely used the term Anti-Nuclear Jehaids to refer to illustrious folks like Greenpeace in Europe and our own darlings like Udaykumar, Arundhuti, Purefool Bidwai and Vandana Shiva to name a few. (Perhaps you found it offensive that I was so disrespectful to such "experts"; if so please accept my apologies Saar!).

However, I don’t understand how my using the term anti-nuclear jehadis for the above luminaries provides a justification of using the term nuclear jehadis in reference to scientists and nuclear industry folks, including Indian ones in places like AEC.

Finally I would like to know, what would be your justification, using the template of Amit said this and that and so it's perfectly OK to says this (in direct reference to Amber G):

I'm not sure said {note the singular} sidekick is Indian citizen. Maybe Indian origin person advocating for foreign paycheck.

And just who exactly are you referring to in the real world when you use the term "bookish sidekick {again note the singular}of great scientists"? I'm sure there are not that many around to use the term in a generic sense.

I suggest you stick to what you consider are "facts" and not spend too much energy in trying to justify personal attacks.

[Yogi_G]

Ok, there is news out there that Udaykumar and some other members of the PMANE group have been arrested on charges of attempted murder. If these are trumped up charges by the govt seeking retribution then I am with the PMANE group JUST for the reason that this is a vendetta campaign from the govt. However if the charges are true then all I can say to Udaykumar and his co-accused group is that there were Jaichands and today there is Udaykumar.

[Sanku]

Ok, there is news out there that Udaykumar and some other members of the PMANE group have been arrested on charges of attempted murder. If these are trumped up charges by the govt seeking retribution then I am with the PMANE group JUST for the reason that this is a vendetta campaign from the govt.

Pretty serious charges, am hardly a fan of the protesters and/or their methods, but I find it a little too pat at this juncture. I would agree with you that this appears to be vendetta.

Since the Govt wont/cant actually address the real issues on the ground (overall external funding to EJ's and lack of faith in the local populace about DAE etc etc.) -- it appears to be trying a "chankian" method to stop the protests.

I hope it is a real charge, because if it ends up being a fabricated charge, this does not look good for the entire system, there will be further erosion of trust and hostility.

However if the charges are true then all I can say to Udaykumar and his co-accused group is that there were Jaichands and today there is Udaykumar.

Well, irrespective or murder charges, if they had received money from outside (which they most probably have) then they are in Jaichand category already.

[chaanakya]

Anyone who claims that we can ever be swimming in energy is being untruthful. AFAIK only the nuclear types are claiming this. GOI itself does not. If we think that we need to get 4000 GWh of capacity before we can become rich we are dooming ourselves before we even begin.

Unfortunately, what we see in the name of debate or facts is nothing but wish list. GOI has not such liberty. The scientists know the limitations, planners know what could be achieved and our track record and plan accordingly. Our energy requirement and GDP growth would go hand in hand. Resource allocation is prioritisation and arbitration . If we start swimming in energy now b efore we learn how to swim we are doomed onlee.

[amit]

Well, well, it seems I did strike a raw nerve!

Chaankaya very well constructed reply. However, I would like to point out that your "bookish side kick" comment was made before the other comment, that is:

I'm not sure said {note the singular} sidekick is Indian citizen. Maybe Indian origin person advocating for foreign paycheck.

Was a direct response to your "sidekick" comment.

Yet you try to justify your comment with this:

There are many a reports posted whose authers reveal little knowledge on issues in energy policies. They might be characterised as such. Its not relevant if you are sure or not.

What can I say? How do you know these said authors are "sidekicks" to "great scientists"? How do you possess such "deep knawledge" about these authors? And why are you using the "plural" when earlier you were very comfortable with the "singular"?

The wind must be freezing your nose, I do hope you have your muffler on and keep an eye on the speed limit.



PS: I will respond to your points about NE in a few days, don't worry.

I'd just like to point out that it's not a question of how much or how little in percentage terms NE constitutes in the total energy mix. The argument is against forces who are trying to deny even that "little" (paraphrasing you) amount for NE by totally blocking that with bladder dash about clean coal and even carbon free coal!

Another point: Do you think whatever percentage NE is targeted for total energy mix by 2030, can be achieved without the nuclear deal, which allows fuel imports (which you have acknowledged has led to unprecedented PLF in our existing plants) and the fast track imports of large 1000 to 1,600 MW NPPs? If so how do you see it being achieved? I'm sure your "non-scam" vision of how XX GW of nooklear power will be achieved by 2030 will make for fascinating commentary.

I'll expand on these points later. In the meanwhile, I would appreciate if you don't use my name for post-facto justification of whatever rants you choose to make. In the meanwhile please report any posts of mine you may find objectionable.

Thank you.

[chetak]

panwalla says that amma has already unofficially extracted 1200-1250 Mw from the GOI, up from the earlier share of 960 Mw.

Work proceeds apace, three shifts non stop with the regulators camped at site and their dukan open 24x7.

uncle udayakumar and his unholy gang have had about 30-35 charges slapped against each of them.

Good going for amma.

[chaanakya]

Well, well, it seems I did strike a raw nerve!

Chaankaya very well constructed reply. However, I would like to point out that your "bookish side kick" comment was made before the other comment, that is:

I'm not sure said {note the singular} sidekick is Indian citizen. Maybe Indian origin person advocating for foreign paycheck.

Was a direct response to your "sidekick" comment.

Yet you try to justify your comment with this:

There are many a reports posted whose authers reveal little knowledge on issues in energy policies. They might be characterised as such. Its not relevant if you are sure or not.

What can I say? How do you know these said authors are "sidekicks" to "great scientists"? How do you possess such "deep knawledge" about these authors? And why are you using the "plural" when earlier you were very comfortable with the "singular"?

The wind must be freezing your nose, I do hope you have your muffler on and keep an eye on the speed limit.


Are you the One. If not why jump up and down. And where I live Wind is warm and not chilly and I dont need so much energy to feel comfortable. I am sure sigular or plural, message has driven home.

PS: I will respond to your points about NE in a few days, don't worry.

Sure will wait.

I'd just like to point out that it's not a question of how much or how little in percentage terms NE constitutes in the total energy mix. The argument is against forces who are trying to deny even that "little" (paraphrasing you) amount for NE by totally blocking that with bladder dash about clean coal and even carbon free coal!

I have heard about Clean Coan Technology. You might look up that. I have seen plants based on that tech. I am not sure if you know that there is nothing like Carbon Free Life forget about Carbon Free Coal. Is it another on your Wish list??

Another point: Do you think whatever percentage NE is targeted for total energy mix by 2030, can be achieved without the nuclear deal, which allows fuel imports (which you have acknowledged has led to unprecedented PLF in our existing plants) and the fast track imports of large 1000 to 1,600 MW NPPs? If so how do you see it being achieved? I'm sure your "non-scam" vision of how XX GW of nooklear power will be achieved by 2030 will make for fascinating commentary.

Policy anticipated CND and import of fuel and reactors esp LWR. However, I don't really see it achieving that way like many other targets set by GOI. More so after FUK-D despite brave posturing. There are many structural issues in Nuclear domain which are yet to be answered satisfatorily. Safety and local consent, independent regulators are just a few. GOI is yet to come out on many of these issues. Though they are working on it. KKNP was always a done deal. It is delayed by three or four months else by my recoking Works should have resumed be Dec. But overall Nuclear Scenario would be in deep trouble if those concerns are not addressed comprehensively. In fact you may not know but gakakkad anticipated it when he commented that Nuclear is from 2050 beyond. Target is beyond 275GW. I don't see achieving it yet in absence of Structural changes.

I'll expand on these points later. In the meanwhile, I would appreciate if you don't use my name for post-facto justification of whatever rants you choose to make. In the meanwhile please report any posts of mine you may find objectionable.

Thank you.

As long as you are posting in a public forum you would be quoted and if admins feel your posts are fine it would certainly set a precendence. If I want to report a post I would do so if needed. Thanks.

[Philip]

There was a "titbit" in the media today,on the impending strategic discussions with the US,after a gap of 6 years on a variety of subjects.One rag mentioned that part of the discussions would be to seal the N-deal where "India promised to buy a dozen Westinghouse reactors from the US"! Can anyone remember whether this "promise" of 12 reactors was an official one or just an agreement to supply India with reactors?

[Hari Seldon]

Article by a anti-KNPP lobbyist in India Today on Jaya's volte-face:

Jaya's volte face fails to end nuke standoff

[Theo_Fidel]

http://business-standard.com/india/news ... ps/471878/

Three weeks after the prime minister suggested to world leaders at a nuclear summit in Seoul that India should get membership in the world’s four major export control regimes, foreign secretary Ranjan Mathai on Wednesday fleshed out that statement into a detailed case. Addressing a gathering of diplomats and proliferation experts in New Delhi, Mathai described the export control safeguards that India had instituted in recent years, which qualified it for membership of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), Australia Group (AG), Wassenaar Arrangement (WA) and the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR).

What exactly is the Australia group?

“While we wish to move forward in tandem on all the four regimes, our engagement with NSG is seen by observers as the most important,” said Mathai.

The foreign secretary highlighted four key legislations that backstop India’s export controls: the Foreign Trade Development and Regulation Act (or FTDR) of 1992; the Atomic Energy Act of 1962; the Customs Act of 1962; and the Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) Act of 2005. The WMD Act, said Mathai, “incorporated into national legislation key international standards in export controls.”

Besides these laws, India had notified, under the Foreign Trade Act in 1995, a detailed list of “dual use” items called SMET (Special Material, Equipment and Technology). This list was revised in 1999, 2005 and 2007 and is now called the SCOMET (Special Chemicals, Organisms, Material, Equipment and Technology) list. In 2008, India’s SCOMET controls were harmonised with the NSG and MTCR

[ramana]

Indian diplomats should stop beseeching entry into regimes ment to control India alone. NSG was created right after the PokI test and its an India control regime.

Need to get rid of their "yachaak" mentality. Once Indian economy gets stronger and the military power grows all those regimes will open their doors or melt away to irrelevance. The A5 test shows that MTCR one othe aims was to hamper IGMP is breached in toto and very visually. Dr Sekharan's "inward V" sign is a very good indicator of that.

By seeking this and that Indian diplomats are opening those who enacted the regimes to demand compliance priro to achievenign great pwoer status.


Or all these seekings an MMS legacy initiative?

[chaanakya]

What exactly is the Australia group?

The Australia Group (AG) is an informal forum of countries which, through the harmonisation of export controls, seeks to ensure that exports do not contribute to the development of chemical or biological weapons. Coordination of national export control measures assists Australia Group participants to fulfil their obligations under the Chemical Weapons Convention and the Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention to the fullest extent possible.

Participants in the Australia Group do not undertake any legally binding obligations: the effectiveness of their cooperation depends solely on a shared commitment to CBW non-proliferation goals and the strength of their respective national measures. Key considerations in the formulation of participants’ export licensing measures are:

they should be effective in impeding the production of chemical and biological weapons;
they should be practical, and reasonably easy to implement, and
they should not impede the normal trade of materials and equipment used for legitimate purposes.

All states participating in the Australia Group are parties to the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) and the Biological Weapons Convention (BWC), and strongly support efforts under those Conventions to rid the world of CBW.

[gakakkad]

All these "Arms control groups" are farting and belching cartels .. I mean the Australia group ? How come Australia is an NSG member ? and an MTCR member? It has neither developed any nuclear tech nor any missile tech...so how come it does all this arms control talking ...

India should not bother joining these.. I mean its time we have some national self esteem . It the NSG does not have India , it means that NSG is not important..not the other way round..

[Theo_Fidel]

Not being a member of NSG has prevented the full benefits of 123. For instance recently NSG denied us reprocessing equipment. Not just that, NSG made any export of our equipment equivalent to proliferation. BTW Panda sits on all these groups and proliferates away like crazy because it is protected.

Since we don't have U-235 but want Nuclear power, random yapping jackals like Australia become important.

That said what the hell is an 'informal' arms control regime. Mind bending hypocrisy. Most of it India specific.

[Prem]

:

Technology reduces costs. India could put a thorium reactor near the shale rock extract and in situ the oil. No brainer! The thorium reactor would provide the heat steam or fluids to power the retorted transforming shale rock into oil. $$$

http://askville.amazon.com/India-begin- ... d=80505145

How smart or practical is it or just Khyali Pulao?

[abhischekcc]

Theo,

India will never get reprocessing equipment as part of any technology denial regime. THAT was the whole purpose of the 123 agreement. US fears any reprocessing technology because it means end of leverage using material denial. It can control the major economies of the world because it has real time control over the oil spigots. This is because of its control over the oil field by proxy over the Saudi family.

But with reprocessing, it cannot leverage its control over the mines, as countries (with this technology) will be able to reprocess used uranium/plutonium, and beat back any sanctions.

The whole point of 123 was to prevent India from selling this technology in the open market.

[krishnan]

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Mad ... epage=true

Expressing satisfaction over the progress in preparing the first reactor of Kudankulam Nuclear Power Project for commissioning, Nuclear Power Corporation of India Limited (NPCIL) Chairman and Managing Director S.K. Jain has said the KKNPP is awaiting the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board's clearance to open the reactor pressure vessel for inspecting the internal components' performance and subsequent loading of enriched uranium fuel rods.

[Vipul]

Uranium Corpn commissions Tummalapalle project.

Uranium Corporation of India Ltd (UCIL) today commissioned the Tummalapalle uranium ore mine and processing plant in Kadapa district of Andhra Pradesh.

The plant was commissioned by Dr Srikumar Banerjee, Secretary, DAE.

Tummalapalle is the first project commissioned by UCIL outside Jharkhand. The company, under the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE), operates six underground mines, one opencast mine and two processing plants, all in Jharkhand.

The process plant has been constructed next to the mine and will use alkali pressure leaching process to produce sodium di-uranate from the ore. It has high levels of automation.

According to a UCIL release, the project will produce 3,000 tonnes of ore per day.

[Gerard]

Andhra Pradesh uranium mine gives an nuclear boost

the Uranium Corporation of India Ltd (UCIL) on Friday commissioned one of its biggest uranium ore mine and processing plant at Tummalapalle in Kadapa district of Andhra Pradesh.

There are confirmed reserves of over 49,000 tones of uranium at Tummalapalle. "Tummalapalle could become one of the world's largest uranium deposits and the new facility would provide a major fillip to the country's nuclear programmes," Banerjee said.

[Sanatanan]

There are confirmed reserves of over 49,000 tones of uranium at Tummalapalle. "Tummalapalle could become one of the world's largest uranium deposits and the new facility would provide a major fillip to the country's nuclear programmes," Banerjee said.

Now that the earlier canard and propaganda about non-availability of Nat U in India has been falsified, I feel that India should now take steps to, and quickly renege (disengage from) the 123 Agreement and its offshoot Agreements with P5 and others.

GOI should take actions to:

(i) re-merge the artificially divided Civil and Strategic parts of DAE;

(ii) stop import of U for PHWRs and import only the enriched U that is required for Tarapur 1 & 2 and KKNP 1 & 2, which are governed by agreements prior to the 123;

(iii) take actions to return the Nat U that it imported, post 123, for its PHWRs; {I suspect that it was not exactly Nat U that GOI imported. I suspect some part of the imports might have been "reprocessed" U from the Russian Federation, in which case it may have contained slightly more than the natural percentage of U235. If this is true, then, same isotopic quality of U as was imported, must be returned.}

and

(iv) take the NPPs "offered" under IAEA safeguards inspections, post 123, out of IAEA safeguards inspections.

In other words, in respect of the conditionalities and clauses of the 123 Agreement, restore status quo ante as they existed prior to the dark days of July 2005.

JMT

[Amber G.]

....
India will never get reprocessing equipment as part of any technology denial regime. THAT was the whole purpose of the 123 agreement. US fears any reprocessing technology because it means end of leverage using material denial. It can control the major economies of the world because it has real time control over the oil spigots. This is because of its control over the oil field by proxy over the Saudi family.

But with reprocessing, it cannot leverage its control over the mines, as countries (with this technology) will be able to reprocess used uranium/plutonium, and beat back any sanctions.

The whole point of 123 was to prevent India from selling this technology in the open market.

Whole point of 123? Really? /sigh/
Keep in mind that:
India has a waiver from the NSG to commence international nuclear trade. India has signed bilateral deals on civilian nuclear energy technology cooperation with France, USA, UK, Canada, and South Korea.. India has uranium supply agreements with Russia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Argentina, and Namibia. An Indian private company owns uranium exploration contract in Niger.

Large deposits of natural uranium, have been found in the Tummalapalle belt . AMD , has so far discovered 44,000 tons of U3O8 in just 15 km of the 160-kilometre-long belt..

Apart for VVER-1200 reactors, India (with assistance of Russia) has design plans of nuclear submarine. ... Russians have stated that Russia would not agree to curbs on export of sensitive technology to India .. the accord signed in Dec 2009 with Russia gives India freedom to proceed with the closed fuel cycle, which includes mining, preparation of the fuel for use in reactors, and reprocessing of spent fuel...

With US, just check out what Washington Post says here (keep it for reference when ever you think that India got cheated out of 123..)
U.S., India reach agreement on nuclear fuel reprocessing

The whole tamasha of pontificating the "true point " of 123 deal, where one has to assume that Indian GOI, scientists, babus all are idiots and were taken for a ride is just absurd.

[Amber G.]

There are confirmed reserves of over 49,000 tones of uranium at Tummalapalle. "Tummalapalle could become one of the world's largest uranium deposits and the new facility would provide a major fillip to the country's nuclear programmes," Banerjee said.

Now that the earlier canard and propaganda about non-availability of Nat U in India has been falsified ...
JMT

Canard?
propaganda?

We should be happy that we are finding more U instead of blaming others for "canard and propaganda"

Unless one believes in CT's ..India's lack of domestic uranium made the country dependent on uranium imports from Russia etc in 1990 ... Unless one believes in worst and has no faith in GOI's figures ...dwindling domestic uranium was the main cause for 13% decline in electricity generation from nuclear power from 2006 to 2008.

Sure, if we look hard, and are smart, we will find lot more U (or Th for that matter)..there is plenty of U in sea, phosphate fertilizers (see my post in other thread) .. even in coal ash...at present these are not cost effective, but in future these methods may be be cost effective ..but trust me there is no grand conspiracy to hide the technology now....

To think that GOI deliberately hid all the U, just to do some propaganda is absurd.
JMT

[gakakkad]

I don't know where people here got the misconception that India has no ENR capability .. I posted entire manuals of PUREX from the BARC website and several news items about un guarded reproc. facilities . We will be able to reproc. 2000 tones of spent fuel by the end of this decade.. Imagine how many bums can be made from these..

Even our HEU production capacity has increased..exact quantity has not been made public however ..In the annual report of BARC I posted last november something was said about that..

That we have a nuclear submarine and are making more ,besides the fact that we can build any number of unguarded reactors we want to should have made people understand that the deal was good..

GOI has never been accused of doing everything well .. But the N-Deal was something that it accidentally did well ..Just like getting the DRDO testfire the icbm in 3 years time...

[Neela]

The whole tamasha of pontificating the "true point " of 123 deal, where one has to assume that Indian GOI, scientists, babus all are idiots and were taken for a ride is just absurd.

Again and again and again - that thought must be driven through the minds of those who think GoI has got it all wrong. The kind of resources that GoI has at its disposal and quality of inputs that help GoI make decisions by people who actually work in that field - I bet not one has it in this forum. So I do find it incredulous and even cringeworthy when GoI is accused all kinds of things by people who think Indian interests are exclusive to them and the rest/GoI are all traitors who fall prey to US/foreign <whatever>.

One the one hand, gettign the thrid stage up and running is proving to be harder than expected. Yet , we cannot afford to lose the momentum and 6.5% growth. To me , it appears as though GoI has with this deal, broken the nuclear cartel and now is dealing with individual members of the gang to negotiate the trade. It will play one dealer against another and GoI aint no fools.
For the MMRCA deal, they made them jump through loops , kept them on tenterhooks and even now , with the inquiry, make sure Dassault does not play any tricks. 6 months of negotiations for the price alone - I cannot imagine the level of detail the babus will go into to make sure we get what we want.
For 40 odd years we have come down the Thorium route - and that means it has received GoI patronage all the time - I fail to imagine why the same people, who saw us take a pioneering route, would leave us in the lurch.

Being a GoI servant sure is a thankless job .

[Amber G.]

Gakakkad,

You are needlessly getting confused ....
T. The liquid fuels challenge problem is one of energy storage. When you put 50-60 liters of petrol into your car you are loading it up with ~ to 1 MWhr of energy. Think about it this way, 1 ton of TNT contains roughly 1 MWhr of energy so your 60 liters of petrol contains as much energy as one ton of TNT.

Gakakkad, and Satyaji , I just picked this randomly but I could have picked any one of scores of absurd calculations presented..

Even wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density) will give you, energy in petrol is about 34 MJ/L so a 60 L will give you about 2.0 GJ , rough equivalent of about 440 tons of TNT (less than half a ton)

What is even more silly is using these calculations to get a 5 significant figure value and arrive a factor of 3 (while even the basic starting figure is off by a factor of 2) ...

..The 60 liters of petrol ~ 1 MWhr of electricity. And costs about $120 per MWhr after taxes. Similar to cost of the petrol. So we convert the 1 MWhr to Hydrogen at 1000x.95/70 = 13.57 kg of Hydrogen. 13.57x75 = 1017.5 Miles. So we get 3 times the miles for equivalent investment.

No wonder one gets 1,400,000 "dead men" walking ..
(And to top that, they mock Bhabha..)

G, and others - BTW, according to MIT's recent technical review Germany (Siemens says it has the technology: electrolyzer plants, each the size of a large warehouse, that split water to make hydrogen gas etc) is seriously considering Hydrogen cells as storage for their solar plants. (pump water up a hill is not so efficient in Germany mainly because it does not have many hills - besides calculations (non- jinn thermo-type) show that their (Germany's) current pump water technology can store only about 40GWh or 1 hr worth of energy produced on a sunny windy day..

If you (or anyone else) is interested, there was a very nice article in tech review about H2 technology - specially applicable to our perspective .. (you can google or I can put a link or host it on my google doc ).. it was written by a big shot, but it is very nicely written.

[Amber G.]

Folks - Like bed (banana equivalent dose) let me introduce another every-day unit so we can compare, coal, nuclear, H2, gas and other forms of energy.

The unit for energy per unit mass, I often use with students is ADC
(It stands for asli desi ghee -- about 27000 joules /gram in SI)

With this in mind, please keep this for reference -

Energy / mass (All values approximate onlee)

Battery (Car) = .005 adc
Battery (Rechargeable - computer) = .015
Battery (Alkaline) = .023 adc

TNT = 0.1
PETN (High explosive) = 0.16
Rasmali (or other mithai) = 0.8
Coal = 1
Alcohol (ethanol) = 1
Gasoline = 1.5
Natural Gas = 2
H2 (or liquid H2) = 4
Meteor (if it hits) = 15 (assuming it is traveling about 30km/s)
U235 = 3 million.
(Yes, asli desi ghee (or butter) has about 10 times as much energy per gram as TNT )