Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 21 Aug 2014 11:37

The dents on the conning tower indicate to me that they took her all the way to crush depth and then beyond .. all in the harbour !!! Thats one deep harbour they got !!

I think Vishnu is giving us Jingos some hints of the boat's current status......

Also, regarding the tile on the sides, here is another older pic of Arihant from different angle.

URL: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/gallery/Ex ... /1711.html

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Aug 2014 11:41

L&T can only build such boats if they are told by the MOD to build one. In the absence of orders and the funding from the MOD. The facility will just bee sitting idle.

Today we are seeing a strange sight, that the PSY yards are over loaded with orders and the PVt sector yards that exist have no MOD orders.

If the Pvt sector could be harnessed in conjunction with the PSUs. We may just catch up with the PRC in terms of speed of Ship building.

srin · Post by **srin** » 21 Aug 2014 11:51

Regarding airborne AEW, are our KA-31's used on carriers or are they deployed on destroyers as well ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Aug 2014 11:54

so whether due to time T or miles M, atleast one cycle of rubber tile change has happened.

I really wonder why no pics released of P15A and Arihant now though, seeing they are sitting in the open and must have been pictured by spysats and 'guests' at the taj hotel too.

Srin, to my limited knowledge the Talwar class operates the KA31 and have the downlink station. no other ship class seems to operate them not the viraat either(when the old grandma goes for a walk)

partha · Post by **partha** » 21 Aug 2014 12:49

Can anyone please tell me what those two openings are for? Also, why are those parts discolored?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Aug 2014 12:54

I think they are called 'limber holes' for water to drain out ballast tank. a lot of marine organisms apparently live in the 'bilges' of ships...maybe some colour is due to that.
http://uboat.net/forums/read.php?20,78592,78605

partha · Post by **partha** » 21 Aug 2014 12:59

I think you are right - http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//archiv ... 52210.html

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 21 Aug 2014 14:04

Arihant looks impressive - considering it's our first attempt to build a submarine, a multi-role nonetheless. Hopefully we have a few more of these rolling out every year to get to decent numerical strength. There was a mention of some more hulls been constructed by L&T.

It's time to 'privatize' PSU yards and end this PVT and PSU quagmire. I bet 'new' Mazgoan dock owners will shut shop and build residential towers at first opportunity. The land value will surpass any ship building order book by a huge margin.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 21 Aug 2014 14:29

French & Russians push stopgap submarine sales

As the wait for Project 75 India gets longer, and as an RFP gets more elusive, both France and Russia are in discussions with the Indian Navy to supply two submarines quickly off the shelf. As SP’s had reported last year, France’s DCNS has already offered to quickly build two Scorpene attack submarines and supply them. Reports now suggest that Rosoboronexport has made a similar offer.

In such an instance, the Amur 1650 is on offer, and would be the first of the type ever built. The tantalising underwater battle between the French and Russians has veered from one side to the other, with top sources now indicating that should the Defence Ministry agree to the navy’s request that it be allowed to contract for two submarines directly from one of the two shipyards, it would slow force level depletions compounded by the INS Sindhurakshak tragedy last year. But several questions remain unanswered. For instance, how would the government decide which submarine to choose among the two? Second, would that impact the P75I programme itself? Clearly, the navy isn’t anywhere closer to satisfactory force levels.

http://idrw.org/?p=42259

it would be nice if we order 3 AIP scorpenes and 3 amurs off the shelf.... and cancel the Project 75l tender... we already have the know how from two submarine lines scorpene and hdw 209. we also are manufacturing our own nuclear submarines. drdo is developing an aip.... with russian, japanese, israeli and french help we can design our own world class diesel electric AIP submarine for the final lot of 12 boats in the 30 year old submarine plan which envisages 24 conventional submarines for the navy.....seriously all we need is a proper planning......out of the three forces only navy has demonstrated good planning for future by taking the way of designing new generation ships and manufacturing them indigenously. then why not a modern conventional submarine with "made in india tag "

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 21 Aug 2014 14:40

Isn't China ordering 4 Amur's as well. IDRW says we have ordered two while China has ordered 4. Not sure how reliable is the source.
http://idrw.org/?p=41829

So far only Russia and France are winning here - Selling same tech to both India, China and Pakis. Of course we pay 2x premium over our neighbors and end up with half the numbers. So much for a strong defense

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 21 Aug 2014 15:33

dinesh_kumar wrote:
The dents on the conning tower indicate to me that they took her all the way to crush depth and then beyond .. all in the harbour !!! Thats one deep harbour they got !!
I think Vishnu is giving us Jingos some hints of the boat's current status......

Also, regarding the tile on the sides, here is another older pic of Arihant from different angle.

URL: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/gallery/Ex ... /1711.html

No ... just a joke ... no indicator from me. Don't have any clue !

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Aug 2014 16:54

Nice work Vishnu! Is there any pic of the tailfin?

Some anechoic tiles when exposed to sun light have to be kept wet by spraying water on them. Those who came aboard a Kilo aeons ago when I organised a BRF trip to the dockyard might remember this .being done by the watch.
The ATV hull design sports far cleaner hull lines.A neat job done to accommodate the missile section Since we do not have the torpedo room located amidships,as in most US subs,the entire bow cannot be used for a spherical sonar.The Arihant in all probability has a larger cylindrical hull sonar than what we have on the Kilos.
Detection range for Kilos are usually ,a sub at silent running 16km,quiet surface warship at 100km,and a torpedo at 30km.However,given the size of the forward compartment and bow,which looks v.similar to a Kilo,she probably has the same armament capacity as a Kilo,or a few more weapon system,20-24 max.apart
from the missiles aft of the sail. It is also good to see fewer free flood holes in the hull than some other designs such as the Chinese sea-dragon! The earlier pic at its launch showed that there was anechoic hull coatings applied to the hull.The sail seems to have a thicker coating.

No idea if the p'scopes are NHPP.The Amur is believed to have the first Russian NHPP p'scopes.

The sonar from the "V" shape of the bow top panel,could be an improvement upon the indigenous developed sonar for the Kilos,or even a Skat/MGK series,perhaps a Skat-3/MGK 540 sonar (which are equiv. to USN BQQ 5/6s) on the Akulas,since we also operate a Russian Akula.One can't make out clearly about flank arrays,conformal sonars,or any contained in the sail.Must wait for more pics.

On price alone,the Scorpene cannot match the price of an Amur.Russia has two in service,might lease one immediately .It would be advantageous for the IN to acquire both the latest Russian conventional AIP sub tech,as well as the Scorpene,particularly as the PLAN is also lusting after Amurs.The IN to operate Amurs first would give it a distinct advantage with feedback for improvements/upgrades in future.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Aug 2014 17:53

the P75I == MTA == 155mm deal seems to be true. how sickular - one white elephant for each service.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 21 Aug 2014 18:30

similar pic of Arihant from Saurav Jha's blog

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Aug 2014 20:02

krishnan wrote:thats something which i always thought , we can build nuke sub , so whats so hard about non-nukes once L&T could build 5-6 in no time

That would depend on what type of submarines one would prefer.

Anyone can build submarines. Columbian drug smugglers build them. Yugoslavia built them. Iran and North Korea and building them. One of them even sank a South Korean corvette. But such submarines are extremely inefficient. Their engines and batteries barely generate enough power. Its a safety concern taking them out to sea. Numerous North Korean submarines have had accidents.

The next level of DE submarines are the Russian EKM submarines. Now these submarines do have better range, endurance, powerplants. But they're not the most efficient ones. L&T & MDL can certainly manufacture these ones.

The German, French & Swedish submarines are extremely compact, with high energy output powerplants, efficient transmission and state of the art electronics. These DE submarines are extremely stealthy. They're like snipers. In the Indian Navy, the Type 1500 submarines have performed incredibly, and much better than EKM submarines. Because of their stealthiness, they're also used for intelligence gathering. Submarines would rate the Type 1500 much better than the EKM submarines.

To compare their efficiency, the Type 1500 submarines displace 1800 tonnes submerged, yet go 8000 NM at 10 knots snorkeling whereas EKM submarines displacing 3000 tonnes submerged go 6000 NM at 8 knots snorkeling. The smaller submarine goes faster & further.

Building such submarines is tough. One needs engines with high energy output yet efficient, compact and weighing less. The transmission needs to be efficient too. State of the art sensors integrated with networks & CMS. We've not reached that state of the art technology.

Nuclear submarines are not as compact and efficient like DE submarines. They have high energy powerplants, that enable them carry heavy loads like ballistic missiles. They're also noisy, which is why they operate in deeper oceans, where opposing forces have to cover vast areas.

Building nuclear submarines is not as challenging as building a compact efficient submarine like Scorpene.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Aug 2014 20:12

Rien wrote:Excellent information and seconded! I don't know if this is professional experience or just good google fu, but that is an A+ post. Mods please sticky it.

negi wrote:^ Yes it is , further googling reveals it is from Transition to Guardianship: The Indian Navy 1991–2000 By Vice Admiral GM Hiranandani Because of possible Copyright issues, I am not linking the book url; curious ones can google it up.

I didn't find the book online. I typed it by hand from my hard copy. BTW Lt. Arjun Banerjee mentioned a few pages earlier in the same book used to share my cabin decades ago. He's now doing bigger things.

There used to be a member by the name JCage who used to badger me for proof, so I got into the habit of finding links for whatever I type. I haven't seen his posts in a long time. Hope he's around.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Aug 2014 20:16

hecky wrote:similar pic of Arihant from Saurav Jha's blog

Either Saurav or whoever gave him the picture compressed it horizontally. Otherwise it seems to be the same picture as Vishnu's. I remember when it was first posted, I referring it as an incorrect picture. I now realize the hump is more prominent because of the horizontal compression.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 21 Aug 2014 20:21

tsarkar wrote:
hecky wrote:similar pic of Arihant from Saurav Jha's blog
Either Saurav or whoever gave him the picture compressed it horizontally. Otherwise it seems to be the same picture as Vishnu's. I remember when it was first posted, I referring it as an incorrect picture. I now realize the hump is more prominent because of the horizontal compression.

There is also a small pic in box on left side. That looks like the full horizontal view of the submarine. But its too small to tell anything.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Aug 2014 20:34

no matter how stealthy, a SSK will find going tough in areas patrolled by ASW units.....and lack of sustained submerged speed renders them very vulnerable if someone latches onto a chase with helicopters.

the rather basic bartania HMS conqueror was able to sink the belgrano with straight running HWT, then relocate at high speed and observe from a distance the argentine's vainly trying to see who shot them.

nothing like using speed and the vast ocean to ones advantage imo. esp when your real enemies are a bit far off. and only a SSGN can accomodate the big UVLS needed to unleash 12-40 conventional LACMs to punish economic targets! secondly only SSNs can tail SAGs for long distances and even attempt to catch up to speedy DDG/carrier units enough to unleash a missile/HWT strike...SSKs stand no chance unless surfaced.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 21 Aug 2014 20:59

deleted

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Aug 2014 21:12

surya ji, would you mind not making completely unwarranted disparaging comments about a person who does pretty good info hunting & analysis ? he also happens to be a BRFite and one who has carried articles written by members to counter lifafa journalism.
this is not the first time either.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 21 Aug 2014 21:14

Just the amount of time a nuclear sub can stay on patrol (100 days @ Akula on Wiki) vs. a SSK (45 days @ Kilo on Wiki) makes it a huge force multiplier. SSK's likely don't venture too far away from home base given limited endurance.

USN Virginia class nuclear subs go for SIX MONTH

deployment which will require 2~4 conventional subs to match time wise, deployment range is out of question. Wondering why Akula endurance is 100 days only (going by Wiki) even though tonnage is higher compared to Virginia class. Guessing higher level of automation leading to less manpower.

Since BAE systems is bombing newspaper for M777 guns, how about we ask them to supply us pump jet propulsors for Arihant ? Good test for finding our 'allies' in my opinion.

From Virginia class Wiki page -
In contrast to a traditional bladed propellor, the Virginia class uses pump-jet propulsors (built by BAE Systems),[13] originally developed for the Royal Navy's Swiftsure-class submarines.[14] The propulsor significantly reduces the risks of cavitation, and allows quieter operation.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Aug 2014 21:24

Hope he's around

He attained Moksha. (Badgering for links was his obstacle.)

Left BR. (Could be lurking at times)

negi · Post by **negi** » 21 Aug 2014 21:44

TSarkar thanks for that insight but you see like our surface fleet we don't need to build a U 214 or a Scorpene from word go; even if we manage a Sindhushatra on our own with good safety but shorter legs for a start it is a decent beginning let's say no missiles as well just std Torpedo tubes and a sonar there again like our surface fleet we can begin by importing the powerplant, transmission and Sonar but be system integrators and build the hull here . By not building anything we are not learning any more about the art of building a Sub as against the Koreans and others who are doing whatever they can with resources at their disposal.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 21 Aug 2014 21:48

deleted

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Aug 2014 22:02

the tone saarji, as you know quite well.
what's wrong with a jingo requesting for due credit for a scoop, esp for someone not a professional journo ?

btw, he also added
"And I deliberately kept the image grainy and small."

his POV towards these things isn't unlike your own towards SG.

/OT off

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Aug 2014 22:08

Virginia probably has greater living volume than double hull akula. It also has bigger spherical sonar, 16 vl thawk and seal swimout chamber to boot. Must be a masterpiece of eqpt pkging. Fully optronic masts and relocated control room also.

akula would have huge reserve buoyancy.

negi · Post by **negi** » 21 Aug 2014 22:16

Well no jingo here or anywhere has a favorable view of NDTV , if I get the sentiment right Saurav's tweet just reflects that .

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 21 Aug 2014 23:05

nothing wrong - I thought i was just reporting it but...

I am deleting all posts -

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 21 Aug 2014 23:25

tsarkar wrote:
To compare their efficiency, the Type 1500 submarines displace 1800 tonnes submerged, yet go 8000 NM at 10 knots snorkeling whereas EKM submarines displacing 3000 tonnes submerged go 6000 NM at 8 knots snorkeling. The smaller submarine goes faster & further.

Wow, Germans are really good at this! Somehow Shishumars of IN remained the most unmentioned subs. Even much later made scorepenes can't match the speed-range capabilities of german subs:

6,500 nautical miles (12,000 km) at 8 knots (surfaced)

Maybe German made Dolphines also needed to be invited for P 75I

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 21 Aug 2014 23:51

I think those masts or periscopes color scheme being high visibility means this puppy has not left for the deep ocean when this photo was taken. If it did that would be the first thing painted over..

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 22 Aug 2014 00:12

Can any Naval guru

identify this sub.

And to put its size in perspective, here is a Kilo-sub in same place:

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 Aug 2014 02:51

SagarAg wrote:Can any Naval guru identify this sub.

And to put its size in perspective, here is a Kilo-sub in same place:

Possibly the Arihant ~~or the Chakra~~. That's why its covered

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Aug 2014 04:14

Are these pics from an Indian shipyard?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Aug 2014 05:45

The bulbous ssn shape of kilo is more suited for submerged speeds while the older uboat shape of 209 for surface speed.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 22 Aug 2014 06:08

^^But still on submerged speed german sub beats both the kilo and scorpene with 10 knots for 8000 nautical miles (16000 kms?) to their 8 knots to 6500 natical miles.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 22 Aug 2014 07:30

indranilroy wrote:Are these pics from an Indian shipyard?

Yes saar. Same shipyard where INS Arihant is built. Shipbuilding Centre (SBC), Vizag.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Aug 2014 07:43

Dhananjay wrote:^^But still on submerged speed german sub beats both the kilo and scorpene with 10 knots for 8000 nautical miles (16000 kms?) to their 8 knots to 6500 natical miles.

tsarkar was talking of surfaced speed. the kilo has a adv in 3 knots of top speed submerged per wiki.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Aug 2014 07:46

to me that blue sectioned covering looks like a mobile deperm-degaussing facility being put in place? note the other half of the drydock is blocked off by a wall of sorts.

http://cryptome.org/eyeball/deperm/deperm-eyeball.htm

Deperming, or degaussing, is a procedure for erasing the permanent magnetism from ships and submarines to camouflage them against magnetic detection vessels[1] and enemy marine mines.

A sea-going metal-hulled ship or submarine, by its very nature, develops a magnetic signature as it travels, due to a magneto-mechanical interaction with Earth's magnetic field. This signature can be exploited by magnetic mines, or facilitate the detection of a submarine by ships or aircraft with magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) equipment. Navies use the deperming procedure, in conjunction with degaussing, as a countermeasure against this.

Specialized deperming facilities, such as the United States Navy's Lambert's Point Deperming Station and at Naval Base Kitsap, are used to perform the procedure. Heavy gauge copper cables encircle the hull and superstructure of the vessel, and very high electrical currents (as high as 4000 amperes) are pulsed through the cables.[2] This has the effect of "resetting" the ship's magnetic signature. It is also possible to assign a specific signature that is best suited to the particular area of the world in which the ship will operate. But over time, the deperm will begin to degrade, and the procedure must be redone periodically to maintain the desired effect.

srai · Post by **srai** » 22 Aug 2014 08:11

saptarishi wrote:
French & Russians push stopgap submarine sales

As the wait for Project 75 India gets longer, and as an RFP gets more elusive, both France and Russia are in discussions with the Indian Navy to supply two submarines quickly off the shelf. As SP’s had reported last year, France’s DCNS has already offered to quickly build two Scorpene attack submarines and supply them. Reports now suggest that Rosoboronexport has made a similar offer.

In such an instance, the Amur 1650 is on offer, and would be the first of the type ever built. The tantalising underwater battle between the French and Russians has veered from one side to the other, with top sources now indicating that should the Defence Ministry agree to the navy’s request that it be allowed to contract for two submarines directly from one of the two shipyards, it would slow force level depletions compounded by the INS Sindhurakshak tragedy last year. But several questions remain unanswered. For instance, how would the government decide which submarine to choose among the two? Second, would that impact the P75I programme itself? Clearly, the navy isn’t anywhere closer to satisfactory force levels.

http://idrw.org/?p=42259
it would be nice if we order 3 AIP scorpenes and 3 amurs off the shelf.... and cancel the Project 75l tender... we already have the know how from two submarine lines scorpene and hdw 209. we also are manufacturing our own nuclear submarines. drdo is developing an aip.... with russian, japanese, israeli and french help we can design our own world class diesel electric AIP submarine for the final lot of 12 boats in the 30 year old submarine plan which envisages 24 conventional submarines for the navy.....seriously all we need is a proper planning......out of the three forces only navy has demonstrated good planning for future by taking the way of designing new generation ships and manufacturing them indigenously. then why not a modern conventional submarine with "made in india tag "

If this is true (idrw.org is not the most reliable source), then it would make sense to go for more Scorpene SSKs since that is what the IN is standardising on as part of P-75 program.