Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Nov 2016 18:00

T-90MS will best new tank for the Indian army
10 November 2016 MIKHAIL KHODARENOK, GAZETA.RU
The Indian military has pre-approved a $ 2 billion contract for purchase of 464 Russian T-90MS ‘Tagil’ tanks. The Uralvagonzavod management, which makes the T-90, considers the tank most suitable for the Indian army’s rearmament programme for a new main battle tank.

DAC clears deal on purchase of Russian T-90 tanks
India to buy advanced T-90 tanks from Russia

T-90MS at Russia Arms Expo-2016. Source:RAE-2016
The Indian Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC), chaired by India's Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, has pre-approved an armaments modernization project for the Indian armed forces for a total sum of 821 billion rupees (over $ 12 billion), the Times of India (TOI) reported.

According to the report in the TOI, what has been approved is the purchase of 83 fourth-generation Indian light multipurpose fighter aircraft Tejas Mark-1A and 464 Russian T-90 tanks, and 6 additional regiments of the Indian MRLS ‘Pinaka’.

India plans to set up a licensed assembly plant for the armoured forces through the Ministry of Defence Ordnance Factory Board.

The DAC’s approval is the penultimate barrier before the signing of the world’s largest tank contract over the past 15 years, without any exaggeration, Andrey Frolov, editor in chief of the magazine Arms Export, told Gazeta.ru.

Russia, India will expand military cooperation with focus on Navy projects
"This confirms Russia’s place in the global market as the largest developer, manufacturer and supplier of armoured vehicles. The T-90MS will allow Uralvagonzavod (UVZ) to reach a higher level of production, while keeping all the features of earlier T-90 tanks,” said Frolov.

Frolov said that earlier, Indians did not fully realize the potential of the licensed assembly of Russian tanks, even though they already have such an experience. "Some things will be made in UVZ and others in India. In any event, both for the domestic producers, as well as for the Indian party, it would be an advantageous contract", said a source of Gazeta.ru.

On the eve of the Defexpo 2016 India arms exhibition in March, Oleg Siyenko, the CEO of the UVZ Corporation, outlined in an interview with Gazeta.ru, Uralvagonzavod’s plans to modernize the T-90 and T-72 Indian tanks.

"The Corporation is considering the Indian market as a priority and a promising one,", said Siyenko

UVZ’s cooperation with India began in 1978, with the delivery of T-72 tanks. Later, UVZ specialists helped in rebuilding the tank factory at Avadi to facilitate the licensed production of T-72 tanks. The latest stage of cooperation started in 2001, when the first contract for the supply of T-90S tanks to India was signed. Currently, India is implementing a programme for licensed production of the T-90 ‘Bhishma,’ and various after sales service projects of armoured vehicles, including spare parts and engines. In response to an Indian request, UVZ offered individual modernization options for T-72 tanks, and for modernization of the T-90S.

Siyenko said the Indian army plans to stop commissioning T-72 tanks in 2025-2030 and replace them with the average main battle tanks of the future. The project is known in India as the FRCV (Future Ready Combat Vehicle). The Russian T-90MS (upgraded T-90S) meets all parameters and could come under the new Indian tank fleet upgrade, said the UVZ CEO.

“Open Partner” Russia has advantage in Indian defence arena
"If we receive a request from the Indian partners to test the upgraded T-90S, Uralvagonzavod will be ready to send it to the test", said Siyenko.

"I personally observed great interest, among the senior Indian military men, in the T-90MS tank at the Russian Arms Expo (RAE) exhibition in Nizhny Tagil", said Viktor Murakhovski, chief editor of Arsenal Otechestva (Russian military review – translator’s note). The ‘Tagil’ exhibition demonstrated combat techniques in action as part of military formations, and almost at the same site, next to the static display.

"The Indians were really convinced of the high combat capabilities of the T-90MS, compared with the T-90 machine, which is available in service in India. T-90MS is definitely an entrance to a new level. And since this vehicle has new ammunition, we can say a new weapons system," explained Murakhovski.

The expert said Pakistan would purchase armoured vehicles from China soon. Chinese armed forces demonstrated their model of the new VT-5 tank at the November Airshow China 2016.

"India is therefore concerned about maintaining the military and technical superiority in the field of armoured vehicles. However, it would be rash to expect that the contract will be signed as early as tomorrow. In India, such things are not done quickly", said Murakhovski.

The T-90 went through baptism of fire in Syria in the spring of 2016. The first reports of the Syrian army receiving mechanized divisions of the Russian T-90 appeared November 29, 2015. On February 5, sources of RNS agency in the Russian Ministry of Defence explained that, at the end of 2015, a large consignment of Russian T-90A tanks, which had previously operated in the Russian army, were delivered in Syria. Syrian tank crews even trained on the Russian sites. According to the agency, the T-90A tanks were first used by the Syrian army near the city of Aleppo, ensuring protection of the Syrian army assault groups.

Main threats to Russia’s T-90 in Syria
Yeni Safak, Turkey’s pro-government newspaper and the Iranian news agency Fars reported that the T-90A was involved in attacks on militants. Online videos, posted by the Syrian SANA agency where these machines are shown, proved that Russian T-90As were used.

The T-90 battle tank, built from 1980-1990 on the base of the T-72B, was named ‘Vladimir’ in honour of head designer Vladimir Potkin. The T-90MS is a modernized version of the tank’s export model, named ‘Tagil’. It is equipped with a 125-mm smoothbore gun – 2A46M-5 launcher, guided by missiles with laser-guided sight with thermal imager. The maximum sighting range of the armour-piercing shells is 4,000 m, and high-explosive shells – up to 9,600 m. The maximum range of the direct shot at the target height of 2 m. is 2120 m. The tank is also protected with dynamic protection against chemical and armour-piercing shells. At the customer’s request, the active protection Arena-E system to combat anti-tank guided missiles can be installed in the T-90MS.

First published in Russian by Gazeta.ru.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 10 Nov 2016 19:39

India is the largest operator of T-90 tanks, more than even Russia. sucks!

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 11 Nov 2016 02:17

Mihir wrote:
sudeepj wrote:The real scandal is the inability of Avadi to incorporate Arjun technologies (the suspension, the longer APFSDS, the FCS, the muzzle reference, the APU, the bustle with blow off panels) into the base T90 design.
Aside from the muzzle reference system, the rest would be impossible to do without a major redesign of the entire vehicle. It would've been much easier to design a new tank from scratch.

Disagree. The biggest and most complex part of the tank will be the engine and the transmission, not the other stuff. For instance, the turret is welded, changing the shape to incorporate a bustle should be a simple matter. If you understand the electrical circuits, incorporating an APU should be a relatively simple matter. The advantage of the hydropneumatic suspension is that its mounted outside the hull, on individual points where the load of the tank is transmitted onto the wheels. If you have ever replaced the suspension on your car with an aftermarket part, you will know it can be done. The longer APFSDS will need a new autoloader, but even that can be accomplished, provided an attempt is made.

But instead of realizing how bad a design the base T90M is, the army wallahs are sulking in their corners, and the DRDO, instead of realizing that the army now wants a tank in the T90 physical footprint, are sulking in theirs. Unlike the LCA, where we DONT own the technologies that go into making that plane (the engine, the radar, the missiles), we own the technologies that go into making a tank (the suspension, the armor, the gun, the fcs..) and we are refusing to integrate it into a platform.

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 11 Nov 2016 03:34

Okay, let's take an example from your post. Say you want to install a ready rack for ammo in the bustle and do away with the rotating cassette below the turret. It would require a new autoloader, as there is no space for a fourth crewmember in the turret. This autoloader would have to be crammed in the existing turret else the gun would need to return to face the front after every shot for the loader to work. Where do you place this new mechanism? There is very little extra space in the turret. CVRDE has struggled to design something far more compact -- an air conditioner that could fit in that limited space and work properly, so where would the more complex autoloader be installed?

The only solution would be to enlarge the turret, and quite possibly, the turret ring to accommodate. Enlarging the turret ring wouldn't be possible without lengthening the chassis. And if you designed a massive bustle to accommodate the autoloader, you make the turret massive, but with weaker armour. You would also create an imbalance that would have to be corrected with a few hundred kilos of ballast in the front, making the entire mechanism sluggish.

Add in a requirement to accommodate a longer AP round, and you'd only complicate the matter further. At this point, it would just be easier to design a new tank that borrows components from the T-90 and/or Arjun.

PS: The T-90 isn't a "bad" design per se. It's obsolescent when compared to something like the M1A2 SEP v.3, but still a force to reckon with in the subcontinent. Neither the Chinese nor the Pakistanis are slated to field large numbers of NATO-style heavies. The ZTZ-99A is basically a souped-up T-72 which fixes many of the issues with the design (poor fire control, inaccurate gun, etc.) But it retains the ammo magazine, the autoloader mechanism, and the two-piece ammo. India could conceivably do something similar with a local T-90 upgrade to iron out the issues with the overheating thermal sight and the deficient fire control computer.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Nov 2016 04:07

^^The correct headline should be India has dropped the Arjun tank itself. We are deluding ourselves if we still expect more orders for it.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 11 Nov 2016 04:51

Mihir wrote:Okay, let's take an example from your post. Say you want to install a ready rack for ammo in the bustle and do away with the rotating cassette below the turret. It would require a new autoloader, as there is no space for a fourth crewmember in the turret. This autoloader would have to be crammed in the existing turret else the gun would need to return to face the front after every shot for the loader to work. Where do you place this new mechanism? There is very little extra space in the turret. CVRDE has struggled to design something far more compact -- an air conditioner that could fit in that limited space and work properly, so where would the more complex autoloader be installed?

In the T90MS, the bustle only takes rounds that are not in the autoloader, that are scattered in the turret and next to the crew members in the older versions of T90 and the T72. These rounds are transferred to the autoloader once the 22 rounds it has are fired. This design is vastly safer than the base T90 or the T72! This small change is well within Indian capabilities.

The only solution would be to enlarge the turret, and quite possibly, the turret ring to accommodate. Enlarging the turret ring wouldn't be possible without lengthening the chassis. And if you designed a massive bustle to accommodate the autoloader, you make the turret massive, but with weaker armour. You would also create an imbalance that would have to be corrected with a few hundred kilos of ballast in the front, making the entire mechanism sluggish.

The armor is weaker only in the rear aspect, which I guess is considered an acceptable tradeoff in the T90MS.

Add in a requirement to accommodate a longer AP round, and you'd only complicate the matter further. At this point, it would just be easier to design a new tank that borrows components from the T-90 and/or Arjun.

At some point, a longer rod is needed and you need to step away from the carousal autoloader. Can it be done in the T72 hull footprint? Should be fairly easy.. There are other autoloader designs.. The T80s for instance. Only a few hundred moving parts at the most. My point is, it was never even attempted.

PS: The T-90 isn't a "bad" design per se. It's obsolescent when compared to something like the M1A2 SEP v.3, but still a force to reckon with in the subcontinent. Neither the Chinese nor the Pakistanis are slated to field large numbers of NATO-style heavies. The ZTZ-99A is basically a souped-up T-72 which fixes many of the issues with the design (poor fire control, inaccurate gun, etc.) But it retains the ammo magazine, the autoloader mechanism, and the two-piece ammo. India could conceivably do something similar with a local T-90 upgrade to iron out the issues with the overheating thermal sight and the deficient fire control computer.

From a crew survivability point of view, its a terrible design. Veritable 'tommy cooker' :-( The autoloader restricting the length of the rod is also past its age. Why cant the rounds be stored either vertically, or stacked horizontally in the hull with the autoloader picking up the ready round from that orientation? It can be done.. But only if the fauj and the scientists are talking to each other and not at each other.

*Added later: Look at the latest T90MS, it has rubberized skirts extending all the way down protecting the road wheels from RPG type weapons. A simple air gap between the skirt and the wheel adds significant amount of protection against RPGs. Similarly, look at the chains on Merkava front glacis and the rear turret shot trap.. Designed to explode RPGs and tilt rod type mines prematurely. We dont see this type of innovation that will surely save lives in a live combat situation on Indian tanks. Why? Your guess is as good as mine.

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 11 Nov 2016 20:42

Sudeep, I thought you meant putting all ammunition in the bustle and designing a new autoloader to extract it, like in the Leclerc. If you're envisioning something more limited like the T-90MS, then yes, it is certainly possible.

Also, I'm not sure of the feasibility if implementing a T-80-esque mechanism on the T-90. These systems are so tightly packed together, that finding the extra space would be a nightmare. The best nightmare in the world. YUGE!

As far as crew survivability goes, it is definitely an issue, but the extent of it is way overblown (heh heh). It typically makes itself felt in an urban environment where insurgents can hit weak spots, or when facing pyrophoric AP rounds like the ones the Americans used in Iraq. There too, the underfloor cassette is fairly well protected. It is the ammo lying around the rest of the tank (an issue that the T-90MS fixes) that ignites first and sets off the rest of the propellant.

Against Pakistan and Cheen, where armour would face armour and infantry more or less frontally, this weakness would be far less of an problem. The real challenges would be the weak AP round, the malfunctioning thermal imager, and the inaccurate gun. These can all be tackled, like you say, through local upgrades, as long as there is a vision in the Army brass and MoD to initiate such work.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 11 Nov 2016 20:47

My wishful thinking is.... After two more years of big ticket items of phoren maal, modi will do a surgical strike "swadeshi only" for defense, just wait and see, my wishes usually come true.

As Carl Sagan used to say "billions and billions" will be spent on amca, Arjuns, arihants, Rustoms, LTA, MTA, just wait guys and stop this rona-dhona. Modi is on record for saying prefers domestic weapons to kill enemies and he does what he says will do.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 11 Nov 2016 23:45

What are you smoking? Let us also know. Generally I cannot handle stress very well and that elevates my bp and sugar. But I want what you're smoking so that I don't need bp and sugar medication and stay in utopia!!

Once you sign contract for say $25 billion, how much money do you have left to spend on domestic industry, on healthcare, education, .......?

Pray help us understand that.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Nov 2016 22:47

Take a dekko at the Armata.Automated crewless turret and extensive protection and countermeasures,still not too weighty an MBT with only a 3-man crew.Unless the CVRDE design a decent 3-manned FMBT we may end up with the Armata following the T-90s once T-72s start being retired.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 13 Nov 2016 05:08

I guess we deserve the crap we buy!

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 13 Nov 2016 08:51

New Euro and Russian guns on tanks coming up.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 13 Nov 2016 09:33

I love the emerging chant of let's buy the T 14. Because at the moment I am 4000% sure that we will end up doing just that in 2020 as an emergency purchase cause the PRC has supplied the TSPA with it's latest tank. While the IA sat on the FM BT GSQR from 2010.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 13 Nov 2016 10:15

Priority for next 5 years should be get Kestrel into service and design a light tank for action in mountains.

T90 as MBT is good enough for next 10 years.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Nov 2016 20:59

Arjun Mk2

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Nov 2016 21:26

^^^Is the picture of Arjun Mk2 in the info-graphic accurate? If yes, this looks like a pretty sleek and compact design. And given the armor+ERA panels all around, this thing could literally smash its way through Pakistani armor. Now pray and hope for order of 500 tanks!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Nov 2016 21:35

I dont think the picture is accurate as it looks French Leclerc MBT but the datapoints are accurate.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 13 Nov 2016 23:44

Austin wrote:I dont think the picture is accurate as it looks French Leclerc MBT but the datapoints are accurate.

The Arjun MkII can be further enhanced by weight reduction. By design engineering around 10-15% of the weight can be reduced and efficiency can be obtained.

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 14 Nov 2016 04:41

Easier said than done, agreed, but there are ways to use Arjun even in tough terrain...

PLA airborne troops airdropped armoured vehicle at high altitude of 4,200 m

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 14 Nov 2016 04:56

svinayak wrote:
Austin wrote:I dont think the picture is accurate as it looks French Leclerc MBT but the datapoints are accurate.
The Arjun MkII can be further enhanced by weight reduction. By design engineering around 10-15% of the weight can be reduced and efficiency can be obtained.

How?

Also reducing 15% weight reduction brings on a 60 tonne tank is about 15 tonnes. Pray tell how this is even remotely possible without a complete redesign.

Kindly post after thinking your thought through.

Regards

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Nov 2016 06:47

ks_sachin: Saar, if you make the gun & turrett from corrugated cardboard you could potentially see a weight reduction of 3 tons. Then if you make the ERA panels from BPA free thermoplastic you are looking at another reduction of 3 - 4 tons there. Thirdly, all tank crews need to undergo a strict diet regime of onleee 2 rotis + 1/2 quart of dal each day (that is breakfast, lunch & dinner). Easily Doable

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 14 Nov 2016 07:21

rohitvats wrote:^^^Is the picture of Arjun Mk2 in the info-graphic accurate? If yes, this looks like a pretty sleek and compact design. And given the armor+ERA panels all around, this thing could literally smash its way through Pakistani armor. Now pray and hope for order of 500 tanks!

Nope. That picture is of a Japanese TK-X MBT prototype, which evolved into the Type 10.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 14 Nov 2016 07:32

Rakesh wrote:ks_sachin: Saar, if you make the gun & turrett from corrugated cardboard you could potentially see a weight reduction of 3 tons. Then if you make the ERA panels from BPA free thermoplastic you are looking at another reduction of 3 - 4 tons there. Thirdly, all tank crews need to undergo a strict diet regime of onleee 2 rotis + 1/2 quart of dal each day (that is breakfast, lunch & dinner). Easily Doable

True Rakesh saar.

Only thing missing is replacing the MTU enging with warp drive and tracks with elastic rubber.....

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 14 Nov 2016 08:45

That corrugated sheet idea was already used for the Armata during the Victory day parade (they are more experienced that Admirals in tank design, so used aluminum foil over the cardboard). CVRDE needs to get a 45ton FMBT concept out on their own funds, else we will see the T-72/90 being followed by the T-14-CCAFi soon. (CA being Corrugated Cardboard + Aluminum Foil for India export version).

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 Nov 2016 10:00

The Indian army will reject any domestic tanks as they will not be answering the IA s GSQR.

But, the CVRDE should keep exploring new concepts to make a new tank and present it to the armoured corp's. So that the armored folks have and appreciation of what is possible in the country.

PS : don't ask me how it will be financed by the CVRDE.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Nov 2016 10:04

Maybe we should also import Russian Tank crews for the Russian Tanks.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 14 Nov 2016 10:40

Pratyush wrote:The Indian army will reject any domestic tanks as they will not be answering the IA s GSQR.

But, the CVRDE should keep exploring new concepts to make a new tank and present it to the armoured corp's. So that the armored folks have and appreciation of what is possible in the country.

PS : don't ask me how it will be financed by the CVRDE.

That is a problem with our MILIND complex.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Nov 2016 11:10

On the issue of tanks, there is a new war movie being directed by Major Ravi called 1971: Beyond Borders. Find it hard to post links from a mobile phone, but there is a wiki article on it. Shooting started on Oct 30 and the film will release in Malayalam, Telugu and Hindi simultaneously. Hopefully will see some cool hardware like Vijayanta and PT-76s.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 14 Nov 2016 11:20

Vivek K wrote:Maybe we should also import Russian Tank crews for the Russian Tanks.

mannequins to go with the cardboard tanks eh?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Nov 2016 11:28

Phillip saar would be thrilled!

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 14 Nov 2016 11:31

Rakesh wrote:Major Ravi
....
Hopefully will see some cool hardware like Vijayanta and PT-76s.

One can only hope

That man should be renamed Major Letdown.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Nov 2016 12:33

Hnair: I agree with the that sentiment. Casting Mohanlal as a Black Cat Commando is hillarious! The movie is supposed to be on a tank battle in the 1971 war. My first thought was Longewala, but the 1997 movie Border already covered that story. The 1965 Bartle of Asal Uttar would be fantastic to make! The only story I can think of would be on 2nd Lt Arun Kheterpal.

If he uses T-72s and T-90s in the movie, I would be disappointed.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Nov 2016 14:16

A-2 looks v.good.Can't see why at least another 124+ aren't ordered.In any case they'll be better than A-1s which can be upgraded at a later date.If we can order 400+ T-90s and aim to have 4500 tanks in the inventory,surely A-2s would be better than old T-72s even if they're upgraded? Out of an inventory of 4500 MBTs,which will also include upgraded T-72s,the IA can easily have a minimum of around 500 Arjuns as part of it.This would not in any manner impose difficulties in supporting and maintaining the A-1/A-2 regiments.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Nov 2016 23:48

Sign of the times and our corruption - Out of 4500 MBTs, only 100-200 odd to "order" when even the A-1 beat the T-90 in the IA's hands. Andher nagari, chaupat raja.......

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Nov 2016 00:49

Russia’s upgraded T-90 battle tanks to give Indian Army ‘unmatched’ firepower against Pakistan!
http://www.financialexpress.com/india-n ... ia/440862/

“Also, the T-90s will replace the old T-72s. The upgraded T-90s are also said to have self-protection systems, which means that they can foil anti-tank guided missiles. As far as the Arjun tank goes, it has its use in the Punjab sector, but for the desert, I think we need the T-90s.”

“There is no doubt that the T-90 is a wonderful tank and it is very handy in case of mechanised warfare. We have a lot of T-90s in our inventory. But while the T-90 is a world-class tank, and is lighter than the indigenous Arjun, I am not sure whether the Indian Army needs many more of them in number,” he tells FE Online. In his view, the government should look to push the Ordnance Factory to develop more Arjuns. “It will be more cost effective and will give a good push to Make in India. Right now T-90s are assembled in India, but the indigenous component is shameful. Arjun may be a heavier tank, but its on-the-move strike precision is unparalleled,” he says. Kuber also questions the need for the T-90 tanks, given their best use would be in the barren desert. “The T-90 tanks are good for the desert terrain, but even in Rajasthan these days, so much of barren land for the tank to move in is less. So in terms of employability also, the T-90s are not of paramount importance. Instead, one should look to acquire more air power for the Indian Army, such as helicopters. All in all, while I agree that T-90 is a great tank to have, in terms of cost effectiveness versus employablity versus Make in India – in all three equations, I believe that more emphasis should be given on upping the production of Arjun tanks,” he opines.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Nov 2016 11:40

Ru crews? No thanks.Indian soldiers and our cavalrymen are par excellence.They can master any tech from anywhere and are tougher in battle conditions than western tank crews. The quotes are very prescient. Possessing a huge MBT inventory without corresponding attack helos in support will leave a vital gap in capability for the blitzkrieg planned on the enemy at various places on the LOC/Intl border. The IA should have around 400 attack helos light and heavy like LCHs and KA-50/52s.ALHs like the armed Dhruv,armed MI-17sVs will give additional support.In addition sufficient GA/CS aircraft is also needed for the air-land battle envisaged.If we are to exercise the "Cold Strike" option,then a multi-layered offensive capability should exist.This also requires very capable mobile gun/missile anti-air arty assets integrated with the armour.

AS said before though,if the inventory required is 4500 MBTs,then surely 400-500 A1/A2s can be built.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 15 Nov 2016 12:04

Philip wrote:Ru crews? No thanks.Indian soldiers and our cavalrymen are par excellence.They can master any tech from anywhere and are tougher in battle conditions than western tank crews. The quotes are very prescient. Possessing a huge MBT inventory without corresponding attack helos in support will leave a vital gap in capability for the blitzkrieg planned on the enemy at various places on the LOC/Intl border. The IA should have around 400 attack helos light and heavy like LCHs and KA-50/52s.ALHs like the armed Dhruv,armed MI-17sVs will give additional support.In addition sufficient GA/CS aircraft is also needed for the air-land battle envisaged.If we are to exercise the "Cold Strike" option,then a multi-layered offensive capability should exist.This also requires very capable mobile gun/missile anti-air arty assets integrated with the armour.

AS said before though,if the inventory required is 4500 MBTs,then surely 400-500 A1/A2s can be built.

What about the natashas!!!

On a more serious note there is another questions that is being asked - do we need so much of armour?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 15 Nov 2016 16:15

Rakesh wrote:Russia’s upgraded T-90 battle tanks to give Indian Army ‘unmatched’ firepower against Pakistan!
http://www.financialexpress.com/india-n ... ia/440862/

Arjun may be a heavier tank, but its on-the-move strike precision is unparalleled,” he says. Kuber also questions the need for the T-90 tanks, given their best use would be in the barren desert. “The T-90 tanks are good for the desert terrain, but even in Rajasthan these days, so much of barren land for the tank to move in is less. So in terms of employability also, the T-90s are not of paramount importance. Instead, one should look to acquire more air power for the Indian Army, such as helicopters. All in all, while I agree that T-90 is a great tank to have, in terms of cost effectiveness versus employablity versus Make in India – in all three equations, I believe that more emphasis should be given on upping the production of Arjun tanks,” he opines.

<rant>
Well for the benefit of our T-90s perhaps we can request the Jihadi army to kindly
a) make their tanks stationary during the battle or at least not fire on our T-90s when they are stationary
b) fight only during the day
c) advance only in the barren lands
</rant>

Sorry couldn't hold back my frustration

Seriously though the question i have is can the Arjuns use the roads and bridges infrastructure on the paki side (when they advance to raze the paki cities to the ground)

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Nov 2016 17:51

Why loose cool, the armoured folks know best. They know the price they will have to pay if shit hits the fan.

So respect the choice made and live with it. The armoured folks are living with it. No.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Nov 2016 20:10

Indian Army Wants to Urgently Induct New Generation Russian Tanks

Read more: https://en.ria.ru/military/201611151047 ... t90-tanks/

According to the Defense Ministry sources, the Army wants to induct the latest version of T-90 tanks as early as possible. The Ministry had approved the purchase of 64 T-90MS tanks.

T-90 is the third generation Russian tank known for its fire power. The export version of the new T-90MS tanks includes fragmentation projectile with remote detonation to cause further havoc in adversary’s ranks.

But the army is not satisfied with the pace of domestic production and wants some of the tanks to be directly imported from Russia. The T-90MS is the latest version of the famous Russian T–series of tanks.

The India-Russia T-90MS tank will strengthen maneuverability along the border and thereby send a strong warning to Pakistan. “T-90MS will replace the older T-72 tanks. It addresses some of the shortcomings of T-90, is easily transportable and less weighty. The domestically made Arjun tanks were originally suited for the terrain in the border states of Punjab and Rajasthan. But increasing population centers and an enhanced network of canals have limited its areas of deployment and operations. This is where T-90MS will be more useful because they are lighter and more maneuverable. The low ground pressure of T-90 MS tanks is an advantage in the soft sands of Rajasthan and mud of Punjab. “Therefore, T-90MS tanks are well suited to Indian army. The latest features also enhance the fire power. So, T-90MS tanks are urgent needed by the Indian Army in the present situation,” Major General (Rtd) G D Bakshi told Sputnik.