Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

[Pratyush]

This is OT for the thread.

More than anything else. We need to get the number of ships right.

We also need to imagination to make do with the industrial and design capacities in the nation.

E.g nothing prevented the Indian Navy to try and design an SSN arround the 83 MW power plant already developed in India. But the Navy decided to wait for the mythical 190 MW reactor and French assistance for our SSN.

Secondly, as our global trade rises. Not only do we need the ability to deal with PRC. But also also require the ability to protect our shipping from international pirates, and unfriendly state backed actors arround the world.

[sajaym]

also require the ability to protect our shipping from international pirates, and unfriendly state backed actors arround the world.

Pratyush, I don't think nuke subs do anything to scare anyone away. As you know, sleepy Joe had sent a Ohio class sub to the middle East early in the Israel - Hamas fight and what it's presence has achieved is debatable... because just like we (India) regularly kick the pakis while under the nuclear umbrella, there are others who are willing to do likewise...as the Houthi menace has shown.

[Yagnasri]

E.g nothing prevented the Indian Navy to try and design an SSN arround the 83 MW power plant already developed in India. But the Navy decided to wait for the mythical 190 MW reactor and French assistance for our SSN.

Mango man post ---> SSNs like Los Angeles Class has about 6-7K ton weight has 150+ MW engines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S6G_reactor

I seriously doubt we can have any SSN less than that weight with all the food and other things and the engine power may be needed proportionate to that.

[Pratyush]

Yagnasri,

Nearly all the western first and second generation SSN were below 5000 tons. With nearly a 100 strong crew and 70 plus days of sub sea endurance.

[Pratyush]

Pratyush, I don't think nuke subs do anything to scare anyone away. As you know, sleepy Joe had sent a Ohio class sub to the middle East early in the Israel - Hamas fight and what it's presence has achieved is debatable... because just like we (India) regularly kick the pakis while under the nuclear umbrella, there are others who are willing to do likewise...as the Houthi menace has shown.

I am not thinking in terms of an SSN as a trade protection asset. I am advocating for a large fleet as our global trade rises.

Which is why I said that I was going OT.

[drnayar]

also require the ability to protect our shipping from international pirates, and unfriendly state backed actors arround the world.

Pratyush, I don't think nuke subs do anything to scare anyone away. As you know, sleepy Joe had sent a Ohio class sub to the middle East early in the Israel - Hamas fight and what it's presence has achieved is debatable... because just like we (India) regularly kick the pakis while under the nuclear umbrella, there are others who are willing to do likewise...as the Houthi menace has shown.

That ohio is a massive conventional cruise missile carrier with 22 tubes, each with 7 Tomahawk cruise missiles, totaling 154 missiles.. they are the tip of the spear for strikes. Its purpose is offense especially if going after Iran.

[ShauryaT]

A rundown on the evolution of the Yasen-M by an American sailor. Posting here to compare notes with our program and its evolution based on Russian designs.

[SSridhar]

India 'fully ready' to add to fleet 2nd sub with N-tipped missiles - Rajat Pandit, ToI

India is all set to commission its second nuclear-powered submarine, armed with nuclear missiles for strategic deterrence, while the project to build two nuclear-powered attack submarines with conventional weapons is also headed for final approval amid China’s fast-expanding naval footprint in the IOR.

The 6,000-tonne INS Arighat, constructed at Vizag ship-building centre (SBC), is “fully ready” for formal commissioning after extensive trials that saw some technical issues being ironed out with upgrades over an extended period.

“The SSBN (naval parlance for nuclear-propelled submarines with nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles) will be commissioned within a month or two. She will then join her sister INS Arihant, which became fully operational in 2018,” a source told TOI.

Parallelly, on the conventional (non-nuclear) warfare front, the around Rs 40,000 crore project to indigenously construct two nuclear-powered submarines, armed with torpedoes, anti-ship and land-attack missiles, is now before the PM-led cabinet committee on security for the final nod after repeated iterations and inter-ministerial consultations, another source said.

The initial case was for six such 6,000-tonne ‘hunter-killer’ submarines (called SSNs) under ‘Project-77’ at the SBC. But it was whittled down and now stands at two vessels. It will take a decade to build the first two SSNs, which will be around 95% indigenous, while the next four will be approved at a later stage, the source said.

[Prem Kumar]

Hearty congrats to the IN & much needed! If SSBN-3 (Aridhaman) is commissioned next year as planned, that'll be a good addition

The SSN story is despairing to read. Given Arihant hit the waters in 2009, we should have commissioned our 1st SSN by now. Instead we will have one rollout a decade from now & the order is pared down from 6 to 2 (with 4 more orders to be placed down the road - so that we can watch the line go idle, competencies forgotten & cost shoot up)!

We have to be prepared not just against China & Pak but also the US, given that they have started messing in our backyard (Bangladesh). The next time the 7th fleet attempts to enter the Bay of Bengal, they should be facing our SSNs, SSKs, Brahmos & AShBMs. This is not unthinkable if we say, carve out a piece of Bangladesh for Hindus to re-settle.

Indian Ocean is India's Ocean. This is what China tries to do in the SCS - treat it like its own backyard where others play at its pleasure

[maitya]

India 'fully ready' to add to fleet 2nd sub with N-tipped missiles - Rajat Pandit, ToI

...
Parallelly, on the conventional (non-nuclear) warfare front, the around Rs 40,000 crore project to indigenously construct two nuclear-powered submarines, armed with torpedoes, anti-ship and land-attack missiles, is now before the PM-led cabinet committee on security for the final nod after repeated iterations and inter-ministerial consultations, another source said.

The initial case was for six such 6,000-tonne ‘hunter-killer’ submarines (called SSNs) under ‘Project-77’ at the SBC. But it was whittled down and now stands at two vessels. It will take a decade to build the first two SSNs, which will be around 95% indigenous, while the next four will be approved at a later stage, the source said.

Rs 40,000 crore (~$5B) for 2 boats ...
Something is amiss as ~$1.25B/boat is considered "reasonable" - or maybe. this includes some other infra cost-heads (typical for the lead series of boats), that are not being reported.

[Pratyush]

Or may be for every rupee going in to the actual boat. 3 are being stolen as the pass back for the procurement officials.

[SRajesh]

^^ Looks like there is some serious bean counting going on!!
As per Youtuber and ET 1.2 Lakh crore for 6 boats and
Navy wants the funding to come directly from GOI/ under PMO control and not from Navy budget!!
Wonder if there is some other sub system or something else being tried out or funded
Gungat ke Aad Mein dont know what is being planned!

[morem]

somethings best left unsaid i reckon

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1822616594285015223 ---> I was talking to a retired nuclear scientist from BARC today. Few things that I can share are following:

1. Unlike SSBN, on SSN you can have larger reactors. (You do not require massive BM VLS).
2. Tech in BARC is improved from S1 reactor times.
3. Making a smaller reactor is difficult but larger reactor is completely easy.
4. As power ratings goes up, the size also increases but it does'nt increase in the same proportion.