Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

amit · Post by **amit** » 19 Feb 2010 20:45

Hari Seldon wrote:All following JLN's footsteps only. Only JLN's daughter disavowed JLN's footsteps twice (once in '71 then again in '75). LBS was also perhaps no wannabe Nehru.

The most ardent followers of WKK-awards were Morarji and IKGujral - maxm damage to Yindia they ensured. Aaak-thoo.

Hari,

I wouldn't equate ABV with those two - Moraji and IK Gujral - he was a good PM and I suspect if he had a freer mandate (that is free from coalition partner snakes) he would have done an even better job and would have been remembered as a great PM.

MMS? Well I guess we'll really be able to judge his contributions or otherwise only after he hangs up his PM boots. It's always dangerous to pass judgement on someone who's still at the job. After Indira Gandhi declared Emergency and then subsequently lost the elections in 1977 she was demonised and how. Pity we didn't have BRF then otherwise I'm sure we'd have had some very interesting posts in the archives section. Yet now it's universally agreed to - at least on BRF - that she was probably the best PM we've had till now.

The same with RG after the Bofors scandal. Who knows what folks on BRF will be saying about MMS in 2015 or 2020?

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Feb 2010 20:54

Well IG deserves her share of criticism for emergency , what she is praised for is her role in projecting a much more assertive and powerful India as far as the foreign policy and engaging hawks in GOTUS were concerned.

Likewise MMS deserves praise for work he did as FM or even PM in economic sector or even the nuke deal however a lot more was expected out of him as far as foreign policy and engaging TSP was concerned same holds true for internal security and appeasing lousy pseudo secularists .

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 19 Feb 2010 20:56

Sankuji -
Now I have tremendous admiration for ABV and other PM's but in your list will you please ask also about, say, (I can pick many examples but picking only one)IA 814 hijacking - (If you don't remember here is wiki link:(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Airlines_Flight_814) and tell us how ABV's govt responded to Katyal's murder. Mr Jaswant Singhji escorting the 3 terrorists to Kandhar etc... How many H-u-m's people Pak put on trial? or even arrested?
Or for that matter even after Parliament attack, what happened which was enormously more successful (In halting more terrorist attacks) than MMS's act(s)...

Pak has arrested and put some of the terrorists on trial post 11/26 .. sure by no means it is enough but, in qualitative sense, unless refuses to see *any* objectivity there isn't any huge difference.

Has MMS made mistakes? Certainly. But is he, or any other PM, a sell out, (or traitor) - NO, and it VERY disturbing to see BRF members going into tizzy

Others:

It is one thing to criticize, or analyze GOI actions, but it is beyond pale, and really disgraceful to see endless posts here like:

Maybe the only hope is a[n] attack on 10 Janpath

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 19 Feb 2010 21:03

amit wrote:
Pranav wrote:All baaps must channel their aid only through this agency or face consequences as regards access to Indian markets, raw materials, nuclear and defense contracts etc.

As yet India may not have the clout to bring this about, but it is something to aim for.
Boss,
This is a very important point IMO. However, you can't swing this with a US$1.3 trillion economy. Just as a reality check we need to note that even Poodlistan has an economy which in 2008 was US$1 trillion more than what ours is today - that is US$2.3 trillion. Even Italy which is likely to be the next after the PIGS to go belly up in EU has a GDP in the range of US$2.3 trillion.

However, IMO we can swing it once we cross the US$4 trillion (or so) threshold which, according to current estimates we should reach around 2020 or so.

And that's why even though it's not fashionable on this thread and is looked upon as a sign of Dhimmitude, I keep on hammering on the importance of the GDP number to make it economically costly for Paki's friends to arm it against India.

<<<<Ducking for cover, before the anti economy barbs start!>>>>

Amit, I still don't understand why there has to be a dichotomy here.

I believe the MMS regime and its propaganda organs are perpetrating a fraud on the Indian people, when they hold out the idea that national security options must be compromised for economic growth to proceed. It would almost be funny except for the Indian citizens losing their lives as we eschew any sort of coercive diplomacy options with regard to Pakistani terrorism.

That has not been the case in many countries. China in 2001 had a lower GDP than India has now; but they forced an *American* spy plane to land on their soil, embarrassingly imprisoned its crew, and took the aircraft apart for methodical study and reverse-engineering before returning it in their own time. Against Western opposition they re-asserted their aggressive posture of deploying missiles towards Taiwan, made Britain bow to them on Tibet despite the terrible publicity they received in 2008, and clamped down on Uighur unrest as well. They have made no compromises on national security interest whatsoever.

None of this has stopped China's GDP from continuing to grow over the rest of the decade.

Even the Indian NDA government, for all its flaws, didn't slow the pace of economic reforms and if anything accelerated it during their tenure, contributing substantially to where the economy is today. Yet they also exercised coercive diplomacy options whose tangible results have been well established.

Why can't the MMS regime also pursue both goals simultaneously? Why do they offer this cop-out instead? Is it because of a lack of imagination, or something much worse?

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Feb 2010 21:04

^ AmbarG you are drawing wrong analogies , hijacking an AC with innocents and holding them hostage changes equation .

ABV's regime overall was more assertive when it came to engaging TSP , people say that NDA reaped benefits of the reforms initialized by the PVN regime likewise UPA/GOI today can stand on a platform and talk to GOTUS or TSP because ABV regime had the ball$ to do a POK-II without a demonstrated nuke capability we can't even imagine how India would be negotiating with the GOTUS or TSPA . Infact the nuke deal was only possible when the world realized that India had attained competency and self reliance when it came to designing and testing the wide array of nukes which was not the case until POK-II.

Using wide brush is bad and holds true for both sides but since this is TSP thread when it comes to formulation of foreign policy with regards to engaging TSP MMS regime has to do a lot more specially in the backdrop of the fact that India is economically and militarily much more stronger in 2010 when compared to 1998 .

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Feb 2010 21:10

Maybe the only hope is a[n] attack on 10 Janpath

a very non indic wish. In India you don't find mango people openly making such wishes because the culture (upbringing) generally discourages praying for ill will against someone directly lest the gods be attracted by you for making such a wish. However our education immunizes us against such silly myths.

It is amusing to see a forum claiming a powerful Indic and patriotic sentiment also carrying such an incongruous deracinated statement.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 19 Feb 2010 21:11

Amber G. wrote:
It is one thing to criticize, or analyze GOI actions, but it is beyond pale, and really disgraceful to see endless posts here like:
Maybe the only hope is a[n] attack on 10 Janpath

Better 10 Janpath than the home of my loved ones. 10 Janpath is crawling with Z-category security. What do my loved ones have? They are told "fasten your seatbelts".

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 Feb 2010 21:18

Well being Dhimmi seems to be a positive quality according to some, and paens are being sung to the virtue of cowering.

And what is all this talk about "oooh there will be consequences" -- are we hoping for Divine intervention? I didn't realize that we much derided chadiwallas were not the real believers in Vishnu Puran, we are outdone I say.

---------

Harbans; it is true to say that there is not going to be a solution to Pakistani problem till there is a Pakistan -- that I think there is universal agreement on.

However it is in my mind a fallacy to assume that short of a complete distintegration of Pakistan NO solutions exists.

Neither there is any remote merit in the foolish notion that one fine morning Lord Kalki, looking at the 3 trillion economy (or whatever number) will decide to make a Avatar and finish the Pak problem for the Dharmic Indians

If Pakistan has to be finished off, it will have to be done in the iterative manner, STARTING NOW.

------------

Amber G;

You are asking me to be defensive for something I have never said (at least not since I was banned two years back during 123 debate

)

What I will say and have said is--

1) Past PMs had a far more robust response towards Pakistan for far less infractions
2) There is no merit in comparing MMS term to any other PM for the total disaster his rule has been for India on a whole host of issues (including economic) specifically response to Pakistan.
3) The results of Parakaram are very visible -- already mentioned by RD before in fair detail.
4) Given the platform he was given, the best amongst all Indian PMs, the minimum expectation would be to be better than before and not the very worst by far.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 Feb 2010 21:24

Rudradev wrote:
amit wrote:
Boss,
This is a very important point IMO. However, you can't swing this with a US$1.3 trillion economy.
Amit, I still don't understand why there has to be a dichotomy here.

I believe the MMS regime and its propaganda organs are perpetrating a fraud on the Indian people,

Boss RD, we have been over this 1000^N times?

Do you think people who jump to saying
"oooh dont burst the bomb what will happen to economy"
"oooh dont mobilize what will happen to economy"
"oooh dont <xyz> what will happen to economy"

about every little move India seeks to make, and spend pages after pages saying how India has no military option at all but to bear it and really speaking cant even do covert actions and really speaking India has no options but to do absolutely nothing and that is the best thing possible -- what do you really expect them to do?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 19 Feb 2010 21:29

Amit ji, being wealthy does not imply abdication of a Jihadi mindset. That is one error that many are making . Before Paki's had a better Per cap GDP than India and were Jihadi. Saudi is the prime exporter of wahabbi ideology. ISI, JeM, LeT top honcho's who run Jihad against India are wealthy all over. The only difference is normally the wealthy guy does'nt become the foot soldier himself but pays brainwashed hordes like the Kasab variety to do the job. So a prosperous Paki state with guaranteed textile and low level manufactured goods markets in the West in exchange for no terror attacks would still be a Jihadi bastion against India. Though i agree with your premise that as long as they continue to waste energy, time, resources, governance on spreading Jihad in India, they're unlikely to move towards prosperity.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 19 Feb 2010 21:30

Some PMs are more amenable to overtures- may be more related to their old habits of being greased/GUBOing while getting to power.
PMs like IG were more of mass leaders, ruthless and could hold on their own knowing their power base. Some like MMS IKG were compromised/weak candidates who became PM due to other reasons. they dont have a power base but likes to be in power. Once they flaunt their power they are gone. may be senility or powerless feeling makes them susceptible to make alternative gestures to be remembered in history without disturbing the power structures. hence the nuclear bum deals aman ki tamashas lahore ki bus via kargil/kandahar etc

do all the levers of power also inhibit the ruling parties(PMs included) in various forms.

WRT ABV regime- IA 814 hijacking-- a question always arises in my mind--- Who would have sent a senior minister to the talibans and negotiate the release of the terrorists---- they could have very well sent any other govt official---- why a minister who could be again hijacked and more demands made etc etc. making India look more foolish by the day.
Some do crap about pressures being made in the media and jholawallahs etc.... why could not NDA silence them or scr*w them

JMTs.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 19 Feb 2010 21:31

Better 10 Janpath than the home of my loved ones.

R-ji- I am sure you do and it may sound like goog logic but ...
Stating the obvious flaw in this [lahori] logic:
The relationship here is not "exclusive *or*" that is -[unless you control the terrorists] it is *not* either 10 Janpath or home of "my loved ones" - In fact, most likely those who want to attack 10 Janpath would have no real love for other Indian homes too.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 19 Feb 2010 21:35

Harbans; it is true to say that there is not going to be a solution to Pakistani problem till there is a Pakistan -- that I think there is universal agreement on.

However it is in my mind a fallacy to assume that short of a complete distintegration of Pakistan NO solutions exists.

Sanku ji. None exists. It cannot exist, unless one talks of a nuclear war. Thats why there are no solutions here or elsewhere. We're still a long way to internalizing that Pakistan means us existential harm and will continue doing so in the future. It's the very nature of the State. It's intrinsic.

So there are no solutions short of dismantling Pakistan, available or offered here or elsewhere, that would bring about a permanent end to the K problem or Terrorism.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 Feb 2010 21:36

shiv wrote:
Maybe the only hope is a[n] attack on 10 Janpath
a very non indic wish.

Really? I think you have been out of touch with what Indic's wish. Perhaps I should "refresh" your memory

Durbal ko na satayiee
Ja kee mati hai
Muh Khal ke saans le
Loh bhasm ho jaye

Spend some time going around the country and see what people wish for!

Shiv wrote: One is to bomb the crap outta them - which is a great idea.
The second are a set of reasons why India is not doing that. If I may summarize (from memory) and a quick reading, the reasons why India is not attacking Pakistan include

Its clear that some are saying we cant do anything and why -- however I insist that the first is a very simplistic rendition of what is asked.

Not bomb the hell out of them (well yes that would not be bad either) but increase the cost for them using a variety of methods that they "Paani ke ek ek boond ke liye taras jaaye" (are in a state of agony for a single drop of water)

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 Feb 2010 21:43

harbans wrote:
Harbans; it is true to say that there is not going to be a solution to Pakistani problem till there is a Pakistan -- that I think there is universal agreement on.

However it is in my mind a fallacy to assume that short of a complete distintegration of Pakistan NO solutions exists.
Sanku ji. None exists. It cannot exist, unless one talks of a nuclear war. Thats why there are no solutions here or elsewhere.

Harbans ji allow me to clarify, what I mean is that there are no complete solutions, but partial solutions exist towards the eventual goal. I think nuclear war is red herring, it is possible to use the "boil a frog in water" approach -- till we are ready to move in for the kill.

Needless to say that I am completely with you when you say the solution to Pakistan problem is to seek its end -- however the method that would be achieved by would not be a big bang -- but a constant undercutting of Pakistani strength.

For all their Nuclear bravado, even Parakaram gave them Gilli chaddi (wet underwear) -- these are the TFTA martial folks?

Yes there will be retaliation, but they wont dare to make it nuclear unless they can fully flee.

We have to also internalize -- these guys are cheap bullies of street dog courage variety -- they need to be treated as such.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 19 Feb 2010 21:50

AmbarG you are drawing wrong analogies , hijacking an AC with innocents and holding them hostage changes equation .

Negiji - I was not trying to draw any anolgy - just pointing out to Sanku that he was leaving out an "inconvient" data point in his analysis.

Point is - reasonable people may differ in their opinion/analysis but one should not leave out a data point to reach a conclusion.

BTW, I (and think many others) seriously believe that if Prithivis hit Kandhar ATC, or drones hit the cars/jeeps carrying jubilant terrorists heading back to Pak - (which BTW was after all the hostages were released) - we would have less terrorists attacks. (even including 9/11 - as IA814 was rehearsal and involved same people) --- certainly payback effectiveness ratio would have been an order of magnitude better than that due to present missile and drone attacks in Af-Pak.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 Feb 2010 21:53

Amber G, I am completely with you, after the plane returned, they should have felt the vengence of India. COLD and BRUTAL.

NDA made a huge mistake by not doing it, and suffered for it and is suffering today.

A repeat of Atlantique shooting down. (I hope folks remember that at least)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantique_Incident

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 19 Feb 2010 21:55

Sanku ji, indeed we can give them some wet chaddi's once in a while. But we cannot perform a lobotomy on them (hope thats the correct word

). Pooch kutte kee phir bhi tedee hee rahegi.

I'm all in favor of a harder response as long as it does'nt effect our development etc. But as i said we cannot wish for anything permanent until we internalize that Pukistan in it's present format, aims and existing aspirations has to be dismantled. That not happening, while it should have been internalized amongst our strategic analysts by now. Whats the point of hadkaoing the dog, it runs away for some time. After that you're walking peacefully again comes biting at you. Sensible thing is obviously make friends with the dog, give him a dog biscuit and it'll wag it's tail and offer you no trouble. But puki's are no ordinary canine species. It's rabid and must be put down.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 Feb 2010 22:00

harbans wrote:Sanku ji, indeed we can give them some wet chaddi's once in a while.

I think that is needed, keep kicking them away till we are ready to straighten the tail once and for all.

It will also make sure that it does not snatches any biscuits from our kids to feed itself and stay healthy, makes it easier for us later then.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Feb 2010 22:04

US permission can be obtained - if you can sell them the prospect of much better chances of doing buisness in CAR and watching out Russia, Iran, and PRC - if the Occupied Western India comes back into direct Indian control. Rteurn of OWI to Indian givernment and system means (1) infrrastructural development (2) clearing of terrorists (3) no need for US to spend money - the growing economy of India absorbs the cost (4) the most important factor - a substantial devoted serving class, who simply melt at the prospect of licking Anglo-Saxon boots.

However, friends - what you are all getting repeatedly stuck at is the wall of lack of vision and will from the Indian side. There is point up to which you can go on blaming outsiders for even such crucial factors as failure of choosing proper leadership. If almost all Indians are not cowards or their hearts and minds are in the right place - why do they choose such "ineffective" and potentially damaging leadership - time after time? It is not enough to be "good", it needs a degree of ruthlessness to neutralize ruthlessness from your enemies.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 19 Feb 2010 22:25

The only way to induce a change in the behaviour of the Pakistani defence/civilian elite who run this anti-India jihad bi saif is to target them directly, personally, specifically and in an escalatory fashion, starting with those distantly linked and working our way inwards.

Targeting mango abdul is pointless, although it can be fun of sorts and will obliquely suggest to outside observers that hammurabi is not entirely unknown to the babus in the various blocks. However, the abovementioned elites will have no twinges of conscience on that score, no matter how many Islamobots are deactivated. It is all part of jihad in the way of allah anyways.

Making them think twice will require a rather more direct approach. One thing we do know is who they are, where they live, the holidays they take - in many cases, personal preferences, sexual predelictions, and so on and so forth. Careful targeting will be key. Remember, the objective is to send a message, not to decapitate. We need the fools with uniforms in place (but with some other fantastic delusion - maybe Central Asian empire). They have been more helpful to us than they can imagine.

The advantage of the direct approach? Mango abdul won't give a crap if the ashraf Pakisatans are removed from active political/economic/military duty in an incremental fashion. Just as they won't give a crap if overnight the elites decide that recovering Kashmir from the Hindus no longer gives them a collective hard on. Mango abdul hateloves us anyways. Not much is going to change on that score, one way or another.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 19 Feb 2010 22:34

Meanwhile:
FWIW Interview of Hamid Gul : According to him: (Click the image for the interview)
This is the future (America is the past)

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 19 Feb 2010 23:10

shiv wrote:
Maybe the only hope is a[n] attack on 10 Janpath
a very non indic wish. In India you don't find mango people openly making such wishes because the culture (upbringing) generally discourages praying for ill will against someone directly lest the gods be attracted by you for making such a wish. However our education immunizes us against such silly myths.

It is amusing to see a forum claiming a powerful Indic and patriotic sentiment also carrying such an incongruous deracinated statement.

Shiv, that is a wrong read on Indic. Several instances where for survival of Dharma many means work. Look through our epics and Puranas. Also, note the usage of Jyotish etc. See how the Mahabharat war was fought?
This statement is perfectly legitimate for those on the forum who believe that 10 Janpath will compromise nation (You and I may not buy it).

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 19 Feb 2010 23:23

I think Hakeem saab has again set the ball rolling for defining what is "Indic"?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Feb 2010 23:25

Can I remind you all this the TSP thread?
Thanks.

ramana

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 19 Feb 2010 23:29

America, in its present state, can do jackshit to Indian economy. All that India needs is a pair of balls in the right place, we could then sit back & watch the fun. India is much, much more attractive to the world than China was in 2001. All Unkil can do is to squeal, howl & at best, dent the growth rate for an year or two, other than that they can do zilch. All that our guborment needs to do is to play their cards right & learn how to throw their weight around.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 19 Feb 2010 23:33

We keep on hearing that US interests in Afghanistan would be jeopardized blah. blah..Is it not possible that we give US a finger and do what we have to do? Every nation has a right to protect its self interest. One salvo of Brahmos Cruise missile attacks on selected ISI,LeT,JuD,UJC and PA targets moments after a terrorist attack in India would make it = =.
No Sir, Its not disproportional response like the Israelis..This is a just response against an unjust enemy.

This is a time where we stand to loose much less. Our economy is much better positioned to absorb the repercussions of a small scale war. The US Dollar is not what it was during Op Parakram times and neither is Indian Rupee. IMF just went out to auction 200 tonnes of Gold and guess who is the suspect bidder?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Feb 2010 23:45

shiv wrote:
Pranav wrote:
A $4 trillion economy would help. But that would not be sufficient. India will never have enough clout without a highly credible thermonuclear deterrent. And India will never get that deterrent as long as there is this ingrained Dhimmitude.
Even having a an arsenal of bombs higher than our currently universally accepted 4 kiloton fission bomb capability will not give us that clout. Just because we are afraid of Paki nukes we assume that Pakis think like us and are afraid of our nukes. They are not. It is an example of a cognitive trap to assume that the other guy thinks like you.

The Jihadist types revel in slaughtering unarmed populations but generally run like street dogs when faced with a real adversary. The Pakis are afraid of our nukes and would be even more afraid if the nukes were bigger.

But the main use for the thermonukes would be to deter the baaps.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Feb 2010 23:55

shiv wrote:There are at least two sets of ideas that various people have put forward on this thread relating to dealing with the former Hindus of North West India currently called Pakistanis.

One is to bomb the crap outta them - which is a great idea.

There are better options than that ...

The second are a set of reasons why India is not doing that. If I may summarize (from memory) and a quick reading, the reasons why India is not attacking Pakistan include

MMS is looking for Nobel prize

Indians are cowards

The US is dictating terms

No, the real reason is that the Pakis want to escalate to the nuke blackmail stage as soon as possible. That is the only way for them to side-step Indian advantages in conventional weapons, economy and soft power.

But what about the US? How will India get permission from the US?

The US is one of the baaps. Need incentives and disincentives to make the baaps behave. Sometimes it helps to have some nuisance value.

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 19 Feb 2010 23:58

lord have mercy.. when this kids grow up, they become COAS like kiyani..
95% truckers ‘indulge in sex with helpers’

source: http://thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=224957

Transportation terminals and bus stands are the hubs of Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children (CSEC), with 95 per cent of truck drivers, who have to be away from home for an average of 21.5 days in a month, considering indulging in sexual activities during rest time as their main entertainment.

These deplorable findings were shared at the launch of a report titled ‘A Situational Analysis of Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children in Transport Industry of Pakistan’, organised by Sahil, an NGO working for child rights. The survey was conducted with 505 persons including 170 drivers, 169 helper boys and 166 driver hotel owners.

To determine the status of the issue and unveil the reality, the working group conducted a research in six major cities including Lahore, Rawalpindi, Peshawar, Sukkur, Karachi and Quetta, where transportation hubs exist. The purpose of this research was to identify the key factors, which affect the prostitution of boys in the transport industry, and study the socio-economic and legal context in which such persons manoeuvre. At the end, the study recommends actions that can be taken to combat CSEC in the transport and allied sectors.

Highlighting the main findings of the research, chairman of the working group Dr Muhammad Tufail said though having such a relationship with women is also very much prevalent at such spots, drivers prefer young boys, as they are easily available and are cheaper as compared to women. Citing some other reasons for this preference, he said there is also no issue of pregnancy or provision of safe space for such activities with boys.

Despite the peaceful drive and availability of much better facilities on motorways, Dr Tufail said the drivers refrain from using these highways mainly because their main source of entertainment is missing on the international standard road network. “They prefer GT Road and other highways where they can enjoy the freedom for such activities,” he pointed out.

Apart from the relatives of drivers, Dr Tufial said almost all helper boys accompanying the drivers are sexually exploited. Disclosing another shameful trend at these terminals, he said the older helper boys also tend to exploit young boys that are new in the profession. He said these boys are at a high risk of sexually transmitted diseases including HIV, as according to the research findings, drivers ignore using preventive measures while dealing with boys.

He said the most predominant ethnic group among helper boys and drivers is Pashtuns, followed by Punjabis and Seraikis. The helper boys are mostly adolescents in their late teens and their majority is either illiterate or had dropped out of school at an early age. He said the sexual exploitation of children in the transport sector exposes them to multiple forms of violence at different levels.

The study shows that the spaces often used for sexual activities are hotels or inside a truck, bus and trawlers, and other venues like deserted places on roadsides, fields, etc. The mean age of the helper boys with the drivers was 16 years, ranging between 13 to 22 years. Out of a total of 170 helper boys, the vast majority were Pashtu speaking (44.6 per cent), followed by Punjabi (22 per cent), Seraiki (10.1 per cent) and Sindhi (8.9 per cent).

The mean schooling of the helpers was three years, while only six per cent had completed the 10-year schooling. The main reasons quoted were poverty (43 per cent), harsh school environment (20 per cent), physical abuse at home (10 per cent) and the desire to learn a marketable skill (22 per cent).

The average salary of a helper is Rs2,000-5,000 per month. Besides salaries, some of the boys earn extra money through massage and selling sex, and good-looking boys may earn more than Rs10,000 per month through commercial sex.

In its recommendations, the study urged the government to officially acknowledge the sexual exploitation of boys, so that policies, reforms and legal provisions could be formulated to protect boys from this menace. “The root causes that add to the vulnerability of boys need to be addressed through awareness and social mobilisation programmes,” said Executive Director Save the Children, Sweden Mehmood Asghar while presenting the recommendations.

He said CSEC in the transport sector is highly prevalent and institutional. “The government should allocate more resources for the implementation of the National Plan of Action against child sexual abuse and exploitation,” he pointed out while calling for the formulation and implementation of the programmes, especially tailored for the transport industry, on the prevention of HIV/AIDS and sexually transmitted infections (STIs).

Manizeh Bano, Executive Director Sahil, said CSEC is a global phenomenon, which lures children into prostitution and forced commercial sex, adding that in commercial exploitation, a child is treated like a sexual and commercial object. “The major practices of CSEC are forced sex, grab for early marriages, drug abuse and sex tourism, in addition to the high prevalence of sexual exploitation in shrines, schools and the transport industry.”

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 20 Feb 2010 00:03

JE Menon wrote:The only way to induce a change in the behaviour of the Pakistani defence/civilian elite who run this anti-India jihad bi saif is to target them directly, personally, specifically and in an escalatory fashion, starting with those distantly linked and working our way inwards.
...
Making them think twice will require a rather more direct approach. One thing we do know is who they are, where they live, the holidays they take - in many cases, personal preferences, sexual predelictions, and so on and so forth. Careful targeting will be key. Remember, the objective is to send a message, not to decapitate. We need the fools with uniforms in place (but with some other fantastic delusion - maybe Central Asian empire). They have been more helpful to us than they can imagine.

Unfortunately, that strategy works both ways too. The Pakis too know all about our leaders, the women they sleep with, etc., and through Maoists and underworld have close ties with the thugs and funds necessary in the world of Indian politics. It would not be too difficult for the Pakis to start targetting politicians if we begin a strategy of "direct targetting". And you can be damn sure that the netas are more than happy to let the mango people bear the brunt of terrorist attacks than themselves. Every action has a reaction, and we need to have the stomach to see the game through.

Unfortunately for the mango people, the status quo suits all the decision makers just fine --- their core interests are taken care of.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Feb 2010 00:18

^^^ Talking abt the vulnerabilities of PMO - Just check this pic

http://twitpic.com/1425q4

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 20 Feb 2010 00:20

^ OT alert: and why would that be a problem?

Hug some ayesha and it becomes controversial?

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Feb 2010 00:22

^^^ You serious .. you don;t see the problem here.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 20 Feb 2010 00:26

Jarita wrote:^^^ You serious .. you don;t see the problem here.

Actually nope. I would have problem if he did not do his job properly.

Is hugging an ayesha causing him not doing his job properly?

negi · Post by **negi** » 20 Feb 2010 00:30

^ Depends , if the lady in question is an official/diplomat of equal standing then such casual gestures are fine and dandy , however if she is just some other PYT then I would be concerned with her proximity to an official from PMO .

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 20 Feb 2010 00:31

JE Menon wrote:The only way to induce a change in the behaviour of the Pakistani defence/civilian elite who run this anti-India jihad bi saif is to target them directly, personally, specifically and in an escalatory fashion, starting with those distantly linked and working our way inwards.

Rajiv Gandhi tried this with the LTTE and got himself blown up. Therefore, this has to be backed up with good defenses. And possibly a reversal of family planning priorities. The dynastic leadership must have many brothers and sisters to pick from so it becomes less averse to the risks involved

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 20 Feb 2010 00:33

negi wrote:^ Depends , if the lady in question is an official/diplomat of equal standing then such casual gestures are fine and dandy , however if she is just some other PYT then I would be concerned with her proximity to an official from PMO .

Exactly!! we are unaware of nature of relationship to jump to conclusions.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Feb 2010 00:34

^^^ It's not just that. Chatwal got deals/award and access to PMO under dubious situations.
Look at whole pic. Chatwal is standing next to the guy. That woman is just an Uzbek dame (hint: Eastern European and ex SOviet Republic folks very popular amongst Indian Glitterati)

One is not jumping to conclusions. One is drawing deductions. It is an example of how deals might be sweetened at that level.
Does not take much to keep all the netas and babus happy and acquisient.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 20 Feb 2010 00:34

Amber G. wrote:
Better 10 Janpath than the home of my loved ones.

R-ji- I am sure you do and it may sound like goog logic but ...
Stating the obvious flaw in this [lahori] logic:
The relationship here is not "exclusive *or*" that is -[unless you control the terrorists] it is *not* either 10 Janpath or home of "my loved ones" - In fact, most likely those who want to attack 10 Janpath would have no real love for other Indian homes too.

Actually not; there is an "or" type relationship in that the terrorists do not have infinite opportunities or resources to expend. What is better? That they expend their (limited) resources and energies on innocent Indian people, or on the people responsible for our abysmal national security situation in the first place?

Meanwhile, hats off on the personal baiting! I see you haven't departed from your penchant for trolling when the facts are inconvenient.

[lahori] logic:
The relationship here is not "exclusive *or*" that is -[unless you control the terrorists]

On that note, the following statement by you:

(I can pick many examples but picking only one)IA 814 hijacking -

Is hardly an example of scientific objectivity, from one who criticizes my "logic".

Edited out the rest, madam. You're welcome. By the way, the definition of "Cabal":

Cabal: a small group engaged in a secret intrigue; a political clique.

Why is it "abuse" to call Manmohan Singh and Sonia Maino's association by this name?