Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 May 2011 09:24

FMBT PSQR, GSRP XSQR can all keep coming, IA can keep shifting the goal post (they'll do it anyway, irrespective of what we or DRDO wish), let us get the Arjun Mark II ready, order couple of hundred more Mark Is and Mark IIs.

CJ, is the second order of 124 Arjuns a Mark I or Mark II order?
As Rohit said, we need atleast 10 more Armoured Regiments ASAP. What will be the ORBAT for an IBG? don't we need more MBTs for these IBGs?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 May 2011 09:58

cheenum wrote: CJ, is the second order of 124 Arjuns a Mark I or Mark II order?
As Rohit said, we need atleast 10 more Armoured Regiments ASAP. What will be the ORBAT for an IBG? don't we need more MBTs for these IBGs?

I have put this on record here (Arjun Tank Production lines may be idle for approx 30 months)

The production order for next lot of Arjun Tank is not specific to Mk2. DRDO says that it made the decision to deliver Mark 2 tanks to the Indian Army.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 May 2011 10:46

What we can be sure of is that the tank lines will not be idle. They will do something with it.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 May 2011 11:28

CJ, I had read about your article some time back... Order for the second batch of 124 is on hand, what stops HVF, Avadi from continuing with the second batch once they complete the first batch. Is some re-tooling required? should more engines or electronics be procured? why this 30 months lead time?

Based on my sources in HVF Avadi, the lines for Arjun and T-90 are different? correct? so why the lines will be idle. Also another Paanwala told me that they can start the Third shift if they get the second order confirmed? any updates on this?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 May 2011 11:30

Sanku wrote:What we can be sure of is that the tank lines will not be idle. They will do something with it.

Doing something does not help, we need more Arjuns, this line can't be used for T-90s too so the delay / idling is in-explicable. I remember reading about Ford taking couple of weeks to retool a plant to stop making one car and start another, also during my recent visit to Boeing's Everett plant in WA state, the time lag to switch from one airplane line to another has been seemless. something amiss?!?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 May 2011 11:53

cheenum wrote:CJ, I had read about your article some time back... Order for the second batch of 124 is on hand, what stops HVF, Avadi from continuing with the second batch once they complete the first batch. Is some re-tooling required? should more engines or electronics be procured? why this 30 months lead time?

Based on my sources in HVF Avadi, the lines for Arjun and T-90 are different? correct? so why the lines will be idle. Also another Paanwala told me that they can start the Third shift if they get the second order confirmed? any updates on this?

Some retooling might be required and as the article says that it s expected to finish trials and begin pdn from June 13.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 May 2011 12:08

Why is retooling needed if they are making only incremental changes to Arjun MarkI to get MarkII. If it is a drastic change, it makes sense to make one more production run with MarkI itself before the un-ending trials of MarkII gets completed.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 May 2011 13:51

cheenum wrote:Why is retooling needed if they are making only incremental changes to Arjun MarkI to get MarkII. If it is a drastic change, it makes sense to make one more production run with MarkI itself before the un-ending trials of MarkII gets completed.

We do not know how the changes are going to effect the Tank. You know, it is too much of a detail to ask. I have reported as told to me. This is the method they have choosen.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 May 2011 14:01

I think what would eventually happen is either Arjun gets produced in big number beyond 500 plus and more and the FMBT gets cancelled due to being overambitious with technology and industry or the Arjun gets curtailed the Army sticks with its 40 T tank argument and FMBT takes a life of its own which curtails the Arjun to the now ordered 248.

Considering DRDO top bosses are go hung over FMBT and IA would like to see a 50 T tank that closely matches the T's that it has , the Arjun would not move beyond 248 , with 128 MK2 being produced in next 5 -6 years and older Mk1 gets sexed up to Mk2 level in another few years , by that time the FMBT would take a shape of its own.

Just incase FMBT fails to deliver the IA/DRDO might reactivate Arjun production line and go for Mk3/Mk4 version of the same.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 May 2011 14:49

cheenum wrote:
Sanku wrote:What we can be sure of is that the tank lines will not be idle. They will do something with it.
Doing something does not help, we need more Arjuns, ?

I mean that Arjuns will continue to be produced at 50 a year at least. Or whatever Avadi can be persuaded to make out of the notional 50 a year capability.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 May 2011 14:59

Austin wrote: Just incase FMBT fails to deliver the IA/DRDO might reactivate Arjun production line and go for Mk3/Mk4 version of the same.

I agree but with a small caveat...

FMBT will be delayed (given track record)
Arjun will be more acceptable give the lack of FMBT and gain in experience.

Net-net more Arjun's WILL be made, one way or the other MkIII/IV will continue to come.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 May 2011 16:42

Sanku , lets see only time will answer that.

Right now if I have to bet and put my money on Arjuns future I see no more than 248 that is what the army has ordered for , it also depends on how main armour threat from PA front develop , if there is comfortable superiority on armour vs armour with T-90 , CIA and Arjun then there is not much incentive to keep putting money where you do not need to.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 20 May 2011 02:56

Is there somewhere in this thread or does anyone know the price of
Arjun Mk I
Arjun Mk II
T-90 Ordered from Russia
T-90 assembed/ manufactured in Indian

Thanks in anticipation

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 May 2011 15:43

Great Video on Indian Armoured Corps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwvFlzNjYjU

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 May 2011 17:33

I do perceive bishma pitamahas skins pierced by 1000s of arjun bhaia ka arrows.

manum · Post by **manum** » 21 May 2011 21:04

pukes dont have an iota of moral highground of Bhishma Pitamah...and arjuna is overkill for them...
OT but only imagine slapping a drug addict when it comes pukes...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 May 2011 22:19

hallejulah praise be the lord...finally some good footage of our armour...nearly had a heart attack from sensory overload seeing the arjuns flying enmasse like steel beasts across the sand!

this cannot be a DD/DAVP effort! salute to whoever made it!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 May 2011 22:34

T-90 is a great tank almost every one in that footage spoke good about the tank specially on its firepower and size advantage , they also spoke good about Arjun in the same tone and spirit.

In the end both T-90 and Arjun are great tank and comes with its own advantage.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 May 2011 22:43

looked like a entire tank division lined up in rows for the exercise. I had never seen any footage of so much IA armour together or any airborne footage of IA armour on the move either,

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 May 2011 22:47

singha ji, watch all the episodes of mission army, there are ten odd episodes with fantastic footage of army. links in multimedia thread.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 21 May 2011 23:01

In the end both T-90 and Arjun are great tank and comes with its own advantage

.

Nope

repeating the same rubbish does not make it true

The T 90 is not a great tank - in any sense of the word -

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 May 2011 23:08

it's a good target though.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 May 2011 23:33

It is a good tank and the army loves it and every officer spoke good about it much like they spoke good about Arjun , thats the bottom line.

Most opinion i hear on T-90 on BRF is with humility biased opinion and hyperbole.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 May 2011 23:37

what would you expect them to say, it's a piece of garbage ? they are loyal soldiers who would fight with whatever the army brass gives them.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 May 2011 23:41

Rahul M wrote:it's a good target though.

That aside, did the jingoes realize that part of footage with BMP-IIs is not from plains? Check at 0.31mins. Where do you think this is?

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 21 May 2011 23:44

Singha wrote:hallejulah praise be the lord...finally some good footage of our armour...nearly had a heart attack from sensory overload seeing the arjuns flying enmasse like steel beasts across the sand!

this cannot be a DD/DAVP effort! salute to whoever made it!

I think this is taken from the Natgeo Mission Army episode...

BMP's were in Ladakh.

Rahul M wrote:what would you expect them to say, it's a piece of garbage ? they are loyal soldiers who would fight with whatever the army brass gives them.

yep, A good soldier does not advertize his/her weaknesses.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 May 2011 23:50

Rahul M wrote:what would you expect them to say, it's a piece of garbage ? they are loyal soldiers who would fight with whatever the army brass gives them.

That can be said equally about Arjun , Tejas or what ever any good soldier talks about , if they say its good it would mean they are just being good soldiers and following orders.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 May 2011 23:57

logical fallacy. an interview in a program meant to showcase the best of the army can't be taken as proof of anything. however, it certainly does not imply the opposite.

the T-90 is a flawed weapon judging by what we know of its record, not because we should take the opposite of this interview as truth. this interview snippet is relatively irrelevant to that assessment.

manum · Post by **manum** » 22 May 2011 00:52

a million doller question repeated million times is how Army manages to ignore Arjun and why?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 May 2011 00:56

full video here. rest of the episodes uploaded by same user. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ExzXUlY5pc

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 22 May 2011 01:44

Austin, garu, I greatly enjoy your posts but what pray tell advantage does the T-90 have over the Arjun? Weight? I bet a tank can be made much lighter than the T-90 with commensurate decrease in protection of course. The way a clearly inferior AND more expensive FOREIGN tank has been ordered in large numbers over a superior indigenous product is nothing short of treason IMHO.

Once a homegrown engine and FCS comes online the Arjun should be the army's only tank. To order >1000 of these Russian tin cans is an indictment of everything wrong with India's defense procurement process. BTW to any tank gurus, every western tank (as well as Arjun) have a muzzle reference system mounted on the gun barrel. Not so for the tin cans. How can accuracy not suffer?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 22 May 2011 02:08

tejas wrote:Austin, garu, I greatly enjoy your posts but what pray tell advantage does the T-90 have over the Arjun? Weight? I bet a tank can be made much lighter than the T-90 with commensurate decrease in protection of course. The way a clearly inferior AND more expensive FOREIGN tank has been ordered in large numbers over a superior indigenous product is nothing short of treason IMHO.

Once a homegrown engine and FCS comes online the Arjun should be the army's only tank. To order >1000 of these Russian tin cans is an indictment of everything wrong with India's defense procurement process. BTW to any tank gurus, every western tank (as well as Arjun) have a muzzle reference system mounted on the gun barrel. Not so for the tin cans. How can accuracy not suffer?

Been over this many times. T-90 is inferior to the Arjun which has been proven in comparative trials. Consult past pages please.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 22 May 2011 04:05

pandyan wrote:Awesome video! Arjun looks well proportioned and extremely mean. Also did anyone notice T90 belching white smoke when spinning around the axis...poorly tuned engine or "advanced" smoke screen feature.

Diesel is injected in the exhaust to create smoke...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 May 2011 04:46

arjun @ 8:30 simply powerful.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 May 2011 05:47

manum wrote:a million doller question repeated million times is how Army manages to ignore Arjun and why?

Please read this earlier post of mine...

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1054815

Another thing that surprises me is this entire FMBT (Future Main Battle Tank) program being undertaken by DRDO/Indian Army.

Take a look at Israel's Merkava program. See how the tank has progressed from the initial product to the current one. The tank is tailored to what the Israeli Armoured Corps is looking for. We should have adopted the same attitude. Develop Mk.1 into Mk.2 and then into Mk.3 and so on. But after developing the Mk.2 variant and we are moving on to a whole DIFFERENT program - FMBT. This is sheer stupidity and a criminal waste of money.

The Arjun - as it's developers have said - is the most tested tank in the world and far exceeds anything the T-90 is capable of. We need to stop T-90 production RIGHT NOW and start producing the Arjun Mk.1 to replace the ageing T-72M1 MBT. Improve with the Mk.2 (like they are doing) and then continue with the Mk.3 and so on. Alas, no one is listening!

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 22 May 2011 05:50

Well said Admiral! When you have a system that "comprehensively" beats your planned mainstay, the decision on which one to buy should be quite easy.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 22 May 2011 05:56

Never mind the leap to a FMBT when the best so far that has come our from our futuristic thinkers is Huffy and Tuffy

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 May 2011 06:26

Rakesh saab, it could perhaps all for budgeting reasons. Mk3 ~ FMBT, if you go by the specs.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 May 2011 07:01

Not really. The Arjun Mk.1 MBT is 58.5 tons, while the FMBT is 50 tons. They have no reason to waste money to design a whole new tank, which is what they are doing. They have a wonderful platform tailored to the needs of the Indian Armoured Corps. Why the need to design a whole new tank? What purpose is that going to serve other than waste money? If the Govt of India is that inclined to waste money, then give some to me!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 May 2011 08:48

At one level, we have developed certain skills and we need to see what is next generation and upgrade our skill. at another level, we have to exploit the developed skill and make money.

We could do it like Russians. Work on developing Arjun series and make newer platform.