The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Pratyush wrote: ↑05 Mar 2024 21:29
The K2 was a different design. It had not much in common with the K1.
The Arjun is the reason why I have no confidence in the Indian Army's ability to manage FRCV.
Yes, they learnt the basics of the modern MBT from making the K1 and sent their designers to learn from almost all the western productions to evolve their own design.
We too developed the Arjun based on our requirement and didn't blindly copy the Leopard
The T-90 and its variants, equipped with a powerful 1000+ hp V12 diesel engines, the 2A46 125mm smooth bore gun, composite armour and other modifications by variant, was a much feared bulwark of Russia’s army. So what’s gone wrong?
Not for this thread but Indian armour needs a revamp ..it is now one of the biggest tank forces in Asia relying almost exclusively on the t(incan) series
drnayar wrote: ↑09 Mar 2024 08:47
Not for this thread but Indian armour needs a revamp ..it is now one of the biggest tank forces in Asia relying almost exclusively on the t(incan) series
Based on what evidence is T90 now being called a "tincan"? If you look at what's happening in Ukraine, every Western tank deserves to be called a tincan. Leopard, Challenger, Leclerc, Abrams -- all have been left in flaming ruins on the battlefield. Russians openly snicker at the Abrams, calling it a "flaming tincan" (no doubt they are exaggerating the Abrams problems, but facts are facts -- no Western tank has had any positive effect on the battlefield. All have failed miserably, in the light of the bloviating bombast being peddled in Western capitals six / nine / twelve months ago).
The USSR origin armour is called tin cans because of the extremely poor armour protection along with inherent design defects. Because of political directives from Kruschev during the mid 1960s.
The irony is that the red army senior armour officers understood the weakness of the existing armour force.
In order to overcome the weakness of the existing armour fleet, they came up with a series of exteamly innovative designs, that were well armored and we'll protected. In the 60 to 70 ton class.
The Armata is a direct design descendent of one such effort.
WRT, the last generation of western armour. It was designed arround a series of technological breakthroughs in armour, FCS, optics, and the lessons learnt from the 1973, Arab -Israeli war.
Second, no tank is indestructible. Especially, when it's used as poorly as both the Russians and Ukrainians are using armour.
During the vaunted Ukrainian counter offensive. The Leopards were deployed in small quantities and without sufficient mine clearing assets. That in turn resulted in the vehicles bunching up and being exposed to coordinated ATGM assaults.
No armour force can prevail under such circumstances.
Given the terrai. In Ukraine, Western tanks facing able Russian soldiers have a difficulty. Other than Arab armies in Desert areas, Western weapons have many deficiencies just like Russian weapons have deficiencies, its horses for courses, the Army seems to want Arjun only for Desert areas mainly to attack fortifications with the HESH rounds, otherwise rifled gun and small orders make no sense. We need 3 categories of Tanks, light tanks for the mountains, medium Tank for the plains with slushy ground where smaller silhouettes with smaller engagement ranges, heavy tank with long engagement ranges for open Deserts.
Since T series fit the medium category the import lobby happily imported many of these with it's deficiencies and order a few Arjuns for the Desert. Atleast Zorawar for the mountains seems to be good effort.
The mobility of a tank is defined by its power to weight ratio, suspension, along with the ground pressure in PSI.
The Arjun Mk1s specific ground pressure is about 25% lower than the tin can. As a matter of fact, the Arjun Mk2 after adding nearly 10 tons to the Mk1. Has an equal ground pressure to the tin can. A tank that is well below 50 tons.
Therefore, the argument about it's unsuitability in the Punjab sector is flawed. As is the argument about it's deployment in the desert sectors.
The argument about light tanks in the mountain region is relatively justified. But given the flat feature less terrain in the Tibetan theatre of operations. Along with the demonstrated ability of the PLA to sustain its heavy armour against the Indian T 90s in theatre. I am not so sure about the suitability of light tanks against the PLA in the Tibetan theatre of operations.
Last edited by Pratyush on 09 Mar 2024 15:53, edited 1 time in total.
According to reports, India is in the process of procuring 21 additional MiG-29s from Russia which would enable replacement of earlier losses and raise another squadron.
These would be developed and upgraded from airframes built earlier but which never entered service.
Empowering India's MiG-29 Fleet: The RD-33MK Engine Upgrade Story
Mar 6, 2024
Embark on a journey of technological advancement as India unveils its plans to upgrade the formidable MiG-29 fleet with RD-33MK engine technology.
In this video, explore the intricacies of this groundbreaking endeavor, from the collaborative efforts between India and Russia to the enhanced performance and capabilities that the RD-33MK engines promise to deliver.
Witness how this upgrade heralds a new era of air superiority for the Indian Air Force, reinforcing its combat readiness and bolstering national security.
Join us as we delve into the details of this transformative initiative and its significance in shaping the future of India's aerial defense capabilities.
Roop wrote: ↑09 Mar 2024 12:36
Based on what evidence is T90 now being called a "tincan"? If you look at what's happening in Ukraine, every Western tank deserves to be called a tincan. Leopard, Challenger, Leclerc, Abrams -- all have been left in flaming ruins on the battlefield. Russians openly snicker at the Abrams, calling it a "flaming tincan" (no doubt they are exaggerating the Abrams problems, but facts are facts -- no Western tank has had any positive effect on the battlefield. All have failed miserably, in the light of the bloviating bombast being peddled in Western capitals six / nine / twelve months ago).
Does the trial report w.r.t. Arjun count as evidence? It went through CAG, right? We saw how well it did even with relaxations, for water ingress etc.
Pratyush wrote: ↑09 Mar 2024 14:47
Second, no tank is indestructible. Especially, when it's used as poorly as both the Russians and Ukrainians are using armour.
No armour force can prevail under such circumstances.
I second that. Weapons systems are only as good or effective depending on its usage and operators. This pretty much applies to any weapons systems. Nothing is indestructible or invincible. A lot of youtube clips exists on social media using words such as 'tincans' or whatever else. This exists for all the parties involved in the conflict be it Russia, Ukraine, NATO, etc. This has everything to do with social media war aimed at the skimming readers of the war news. Information Warfare is for real.
The difference between Russian and western tanks is in crew survivability. While any tank can be destroyed you will rarely see an M1 Abrams with its turret completely blown off which is fairly common in T-Series tanks. This is due to the way the ammunition is stored in the turret (around the crew) in the T-Series tanks thanks to the carousel autoloader and the lack of any blowout panels. This means when the turret takes a hit the ammunition is very likely to explode and the entire turret gets blown off instantly killing the crew. In the Abrams and other western tanks the ammunition is stored in a blast resistant container with blow out panels designed to direct the force of the explosion outwards. The Arjun Mk1A has this as well.
It's a supposed future super fighter from the mig stable. Very famous on the internet over the last several years. It pokes it's nose out from the depths of the internet and then retreats.
Don't quit know, if it's actually a serious program. But such is the life of an internet super fighter.
MiG-41 is a "vaporware". Officially it's in R&D phase, meaning not much further than a concept of something larger than Su-57 with same engines but flying at M 4.3.
Exclusive: Russia Unveils World's First Artillery Unmanned Ground Vehicle Armed with 122mm Cannon
I had read about the UK's efforts to replace the 105 with something robotic and autonomous. But that vehicle was supposed to be ready to 2030. However, the Russians have developed a self propelled robotic 122 mm gun for their army. It has to undergo testing and evaluation. But it's pointing towards an unmanned future battlefield.
IOW, let's get ready to welcome our robotic overlords.
I have a e-book `The Russian way of war' by Jacques Baud.
It deals with the early part of the Ukraine war and is his second book on the subject. There is a fair amount of info on Russian military tech.
Though it seems pro Russia, the author is a retired Col. who spent years in NATO, studying Russia and knows what he is talking about.
If you DM or e-mail me ( [email protected] ) , I can send you a free copy.
I would appreciate if in return you visit my blog https://rpdeans.blogspot.com/ and forward to anyone interested. I post on
Indian national security, current conflicts and startups. Its a free blog, no ads and I do not seek subscribers.
I really admire the Soviet/Russian Backfire bomber - this is the kind of platform India should have bought way back.
Weapons like this would give us huge sea denial capability, as well as the ability to penetrate or even just challenge neighboring enemy airspace.
++1
Now that our 'Bear' are retired, how I wish we have a dozen of these.
sanman wrote: ↑09 Sep 2024 12:47
I really admire the Soviet/Russian Backfire bomber - this is the kind of platform India should have bought way back.
Weapons like this would give us huge sea denial capability, as well as the ability to penetrate or even just challenge neighboring enemy airspace.
What would Sepoys Dalip SIngh & Richard Verma have to offer by comparison? Nothing but the sanctions lathi from their Sahibs.
At least Dalip SIngh & Richard Verma's products are not "vaporware". Suffice to say desi products are the way to go no matter which ever way you look at it.
Jay wrote: ↑27 Sep 2024 23:08
At least Dalip SIngh & Richard Verma's products are not "vaporware". Suffice to say desi products are the way to go no matter which ever way you look at it.
Su-57 is not vaporware. We'd have to be able to evaluate Su-75 Checkmate and assess its suitability and viability before bringing it onboard.
But GE F404 is like a Vaporware and a Mirage (no, not the plane) because Americans keep dangling it and then jerking it away.
So this too is like an illusion and a jhumla.
We have to look at convergence (or at least non-divergence) of national interests. The Russians typically don't dangle stuff and then yank it away, like the Americans do. Can you imagine if we'd tried to purchase an American CVN instead of the Gorshkov? We'd still be waiting for it today, after having seen it yanked away and re-dangled multiple times. And you'd be saying "don't worry, at least it's not Vaporware"
Internet is full of them from many countries fielding 5th or 6th Gen platforms and how so and so country was 'shocked' after they were revealed.
