Geopolitical thread

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Klaus
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by Klaus »

AKalam wrote:<SNIP>
One salient aspect that the Out of India theory states is that the subcontinent acted as a cradle for human civilization freshly out of Africa. It is natural that several groups of these early modern humans broke away from the major group travelling towards the subcontinent, forming hunter gatherer societies in Anatolia or Central Asia (probably the Arabian peninsula as well) in the process, they would obviously have developed a non Indo-European language system as well as a matriarchal lineage society as part of worshipping the panchabhoothas.

Of the super-group which arrived in the subcontinent (here the subcontinent includes all of South Asia + Sri Lanka + Burma + AFG + Iran + Tajikistan + Tibet + Kyrgyztan + Xinjiang), these did spread out over a vast area of land giving rise to all the proto-modern ethnic groups of today, if the settlers in AFG and Tajiks and Northern Iran became the proto-Eastern Europeans, then the settlers in Sri Lanka went on to become island-hopping Munda tribes (ancestors of diverse Andaman islanders, Maldivian natives, Jarawas, Pacific Islanders and Australian Aborigines and probably even Meso-American Mayas and ancient Peruvians).

Settlers in Xinjiang further moved out into plains of East Asia giving rise to Han, Hakka, Koreans and Japanese.

Settlers in NE India and Burma populated the rest of SE Asia.

Further ethnic breaks occured within these groups to form sub-groups in accordance with varying climatic and food/agricultural or nomadic/gatherer norms over thousands of years to give rise to todays races and ethnicities.

Of course, all this fits in relatively well with the bits and pieces of Rig Veda as well as reading and research from other threads as well as BR.

Another thing to remember is that language groups originated in areas often isolated from each other by geographical entities such as pristine forest and unconquered mountains. For those ancient people, nature was largely not tame. Hence proto-European languages could have originated in the same landmass without any contact or influence from Dravidian or Munda groups and vice versa. The Vedas were the only irresistable force which managed to cross and unify the entire subcontinent, it may be that the original intent of the Vedas was to unite the whole of humanity as one big Dharmic brotherhood/sisterhood regardless of migrational/breakaway tendencies of the outlying settler groups but that task somehow remains incomplete.

Added later: Rudradev ji, even the Stonehenge is supposed to be one of the first monuments constructed by Germanic tribes after crossing over to the British Isles and it is said to be a type of universal clock, showing the time difference between their current location and their original homeland, part of their cherished connection to the "cradle of civilization".
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by brihaspati »

Akalam Bhai,
the linguistic theory is based itself on a historical calibration which is in turn dependent on the assumption of the "Hittite" being the earliest, and then being spread into India and forming "Sanskrit" "much much later".

When historians talk about the "linguistic" justification, they never mention the axioms on which the glottochronology is based - the timing or staging of linguistic mutations. These axioms assume a lot of things that are not historically verifiable - for example that the rate of mutation is independent of any other factors, that cross and overflows or bidirectional developments are impossible, etc. It is actually based on the tractability of basic mathematical models used in linguistic models, and typical starting assumptions of linearity, unidirectional growth, etc common to exploratory stochastic models.

So what the historians are justifying based on linguistics is itself a result of their assumed historical models, and some of the arguments they use against spread of languages from the subcontinent itself can actually be applied back against their own origin theories. They argue for example that the Sanskritic languages in the Gangetic Valley is not aligned to genetics - because languages could be adopted by genetically distinct populations, due to "conquest" or "subjugation". They fail to realize that the same argument could be applied to the IE in the other direction to that they demand that we accept.

The linguistic theory of later developement of the Indic upper Indian language branches is itself dependent on the AMT, which is carefully suppressed by these historians. As you yourself point out in the list of criticisms, for example the need to push the Rig Veda down in time is an overwhelming need - and that timing itself has been arrived at by a conscious attempt not to recognize the possibility of civilizational developments long before what can be constructed within the Mediterranean or Judaic legacy.
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by rkirankr »

Sanku wrote:Sadhu, Sadhu -- SwamyG, RD and Bji
Welcome back
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by SwamyG »

brihaspati wrote: Don't know why or to whom that is insulting. It was natural for me to expect it to be disturbing to many, because academic sociologists I have encountered mostly associate the German search for "Uhrheimat" to be an early precursor of all the ingredients that led to "National Socialism".
To me at least. Here I was clamoring for some good post and information. Many of you skirted the issues, and then Rudradev ji writes a post; and you jump in about how it could be disturbing to many. I grant that some of you are rishis, but it appears there is still a long way to go before becoming a Brahmarishi. The Germany (and Nazi) connection with British India is not exactly new thing, and neither is a set of people impressed with SD. We have several European and American philosophers who have known to have found some of the Indian scriptures/philosophies fascinating and alluring. The critical point in Rudradev's post is about the third front and its prevalence; the role of importance it had.

I value posts from BRFgurus, but if I detect patronizing and condescending tone, I point it out.
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by SwamyG »

Sanku wrote:Sadhu, Sadhu -- SwamyG, RD and Bji
Welcome back.....
ramana
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by ramana »

SwamyG, Only you found it patronizing when it wasn't ment to be.
RD's post is about the third way which went astray and brought discredit to its path. Its the dicredit that is troubling to many. Elsewhere AbhiG also rebutted any connections to Nazis.

Eg. http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 68#p925068
milindc
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by milindc »

Allah be praised that at this hour of need for Pakistan, it is blessed with leaders such as groper gilani, 10% and retard malik.
brihaspati
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by brihaspati »

SwamyG wrote:
brihaspati wrote: Don't know why or to whom that is insulting. It was natural for me to expect it to be disturbing to many, because academic sociologists I have encountered mostly associate the German search for "Uhrheimat" to be an early precursor of all the ingredients that led to "National Socialism".
To me at least. Here I was clamoring for some good post and information. Many of you skirted the issues, and then Rudradev ji writes a post; and you jump in about how it could be disturbing to many. I grant that some of you are rishis, but it appears there is still a long way to go before becoming a Brahmarishi. The Germany (and Nazi) connection with British India is not exactly new thing, and neither is a set of people impressed with SD. We have several European and American philosophers who have known to have found some of the Indian scriptures/philosophies fascinating and alluring. The critical point in Rudradev's post is about the third front and its prevalence; the role of importance it had.

I value posts from BRFgurus, but if I detect patronizing and condescending tone, I point it out.
Now, now! An alternative interpretation of my first line in that post would be : that I am applauding RD for broaching a position that I have pondered but did not manage to find the courage to expound on here, because I thought that many readers would perhaps equate it to my justifying or sanitizing the supposed set of thinking that led to Nazism.

Its a pity that you see patronizing and condescension, and I personally never pretended to be even aspiring to be a rishi. Perhaps getting personal happens, but I just hope this is not in reaction to my having cast some doubts on the "religion neutrality" of the US gov. Even there, I think I did not connect any BRFite's presumed personal characteristics to assuming "religion neutrality of USGOV" by default. :)

In my post, I was not trying to show off or anything, but taking inspiration from RD, simply articulated in brief a hypothesis I have worked on for some time - almost from 2007, when I had to write a paper on "identity" and when the seeds of the theory formed in my mind as I revised the studies on German search for Uhrheimat, especially in the Euro context. I don't think my explanation or thesis has been put forward academically anywhere - and less likely given current political underpinnings of the area - since I am talking not simply about the allure of SD to some Europeans or german-colonial-India connection. I am also talking of a much longer term, ancient, connection where the whole ideological dynamic is rooted in the loss of the "core". I have simply not given vent to it on BR so far.
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by SwamyG »

ramana wrote:SwamyG, Only you found it patronizing when it wasn't ment to be.
RD's post is about the third way which went astray and brought discredit to its path. Its the dicredit that is troubling to many. Elsewhere AbhiG also rebutted any connections to Nazis.

Eg. http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 68#p925068
Ramana garu: Seriously, how would you know what Bji meant or not meant? Regarding RD's post, I am reading and learning. If I have questions I will ask :-)

Bji: Peace, let us get back to scheduled programming.
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Coal, Power, and the World Bank

http://bosco.foreignpolicy.com/posts/20 ... world_bank
The recent clash over a Bank loan to South African utility provider Eskom for the Medupi power plant was an important test case. The United States and several major European countries objected to funding a coal-burning plant at a time when the Bank is trying to green its portfolio. The project's backers pointed out that Western countries continue to build coal plants at home and that the Eskom plant is critical for economic development in South Africa.
Bharath.Subramanyam
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by Bharath.Subramanyam »

Hitler was not a vegetarian. He used to eat tons of sausage even when his doctors told him reduce the amount. These stories of Hitler being a "vegetarian", following "paganism" etc were suddenly developed after 1945 when a particular religion & its religious structures wanted to sanitize themselves from the killings & the rejoice they had during those killings & genocide. They are very smart. They know once you go on defensive; the common public will always have doubts. So they just put the blame on 'paganism / cult' etc. When you are in offense, common public doesn't see what you did, but focus on the accusation.

There is a book 'Hitler's Pope' by John Cornwell. There are also other research showing which religious structure ran the line to help Nazi officers to escape to South America (ratlines).
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by abhischekcc »

Hitler was indeed a vegetarian and teetotaller. I have read FM Heinz Guderian autobiography cover to cover several times. His portrayal of the top brass of the German govt is very lucid. Incidents mentioned in the book confirm that Hitler was a vegetarian.
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by brihaspati »

Went looking for lack of presence of religious motivations in arms of the US GOV. BRfites in US, can you please verify the following if possible?

U.S. Soldiers Punished for Not Attending Christian Concert
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-rod ... 87051.html
g.sarkar
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by g.sarkar »

abhischekcc wrote:Hitler was indeed a vegetarian and teetotaller. I have read FM Heinz Guderian autobiography cover to cover several times. His portrayal of the top brass of the German govt is very lucid. Incidents mentioned in the book confirm that Hitler was a vegetarian.
As far as I can remember, Hitler was not a born vegetarian. He became one after his (half)niece Angelika (Geli) Raubal killed herself. It is quite possible that they were lovers. In any case, her death was a shock for Hitler.
Gautam
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by svinayak »

This global change and wars are part of the larger force of history
http://www.whale.to/b/lobaczewski_h.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v7PJmKKsfM
evil is evil, whether it presents itself as Nazis, Communists, Neocons, Democrats or "freedom fighters". Psychopathy is present in every area of politics and society (thought more in Politics, because they love power). As explained in Political Ponerology, most of the time, they infiltrate existant ideologies and corrupt (ponerize) them from the inside.
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by Prem »

Somalia Blast Kills Fighters From Pakistan, India
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/08 ... malia.html
MOGADISHU, Somalia (AP) -- An explosion overnight at a house used by insurgents in the Somali capital killed at least 10 al-Shabab militants, including seven foreign fighters, the Somali Information Ministry said Saturday.
The statement said the blast, in a southern Mogadishu neighborhood, may have been caused by a premature car bomb explosion. Three Pakistanis, two Indians, an Afghan and an Algerian were among the dead, the statement said. The government cited ''security sources'' as the basis for its information.
Apart from the government statement there was no other verification of the casualties or circumstances. Al-Shabab is Somalia's most dangerous militant group, and officials say foreign fighters with experience in the Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts help train its troops.
Pratyush
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by Pratyush »

If the PM gets the news, he will have a heart attack that three Indian were killed in a suspected terrorist hideout. Along with two Pakistanies.
ramana
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by ramana »

More importantly out goes the generalization by Bush Admin and UPA that "No Indian is involved in global fundamentaist terrorism!"
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by Jarita »

deleted
abhishek_sharma
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Representation Games at the IMF

http://bosco.foreignpolicy.com/posts/20 ... at_the_imf
The United States is increasing pressure on Europe to cede some of its seats on the International Monetary Fund's powerful executive board.
abhishek_sharma
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Are Europeans Better Negotiators?

http://bosco.foreignpolicy.com/posts/20 ... egotiators
Europeans insist they approach problems with greater nuance and sophistication. They try to influence others through subtlety and indirection.... They are quicker to appeal to international law, international conventions, and international opinion to adjudicate disputes. They try to use commercial and economic ties to bind nations together. They often emphasize process over result, believing that ultimately process can become substance.
Sanjay M
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by Sanjay M »

Muslim Cabdriver Stabbed in NYC by Drunken Filmmaker

more:

http://www.aolnews.com/crime/article/po ... m/19607768

Image
Taxi driver Ahmed Sharif is shown in a hospital in New York, where he was treated for cuts to the throat, upper lip, forearm and thumb.

more:

Alleged anti-Muslim attacker works at pro-mosque group
abhishek_sharma
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by abhishek_sharma »

What I learned from Jared Diamond

http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/201 ... ed_diamond
First, he argues that sometimes societies fail to anticipate an emerging problem because they lack adequate knowledge or prior experience with the phenomenon at hand. ...

Second, societies may fail to detect a growing problem if their leaders are too far removed from the source of the trouble. Diamond refers to this as the problem of "distant managers,"...

Third, serious problems may go undetected when a long-term negative trend is masked by large short-term fluctuations. Climate change is the classic illustration here: ...

A fourth source of foolish decisions is the well-known tendency for individuals to act in ways that in their own selfish interest but not in the interest of the society as a whole. The "tragedy of the commons" ...

Fifth, even when a state or society recognizes that it is in trouble, Diamond identifies a number of pathologies that make it harder for them to adapt and survive. Political divisions ...

...

To sum up (in Diamond's words):

Human societies and smaller groups make disastrous decisions for a whole sequence of reasons: failure to anticipate a problem, failure to perceive it once it has arisen, failure to attempt to solve it after it has been perceived, and failure to succeed in attempts to solve it."

That last point is worth highlighting too. Even when states do figure out that they're in trouble and get serious about trying to address the problem, they may still fail because a ready and affordable fix is not available. Given their remarkably fortunate history, Americans tend to think that any problem can be fixed if we just try hard enough. That was never true in the past and it isn't true today, and the real challenge remains learning how to distinguish between those situations where extra effort is likely to pay off and those where cutting one's losses makes a lot more sense.
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by abhishek_sharma »

UN reform: stalled or stable?

http://bosco.foreignpolicy.com/posts/20 ... _or_stable
Second, American ambassador Susan Rice has explicitly delinked the issue of Security Council reform from broader management reform.
Sanjay M
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by Sanjay M »

More on stabbing of Muslim cabdriver:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/26/nyregion/26cabby.html
Mr. Enright had been working as an unpaid intern with an Internet media company called tvworldwide.com on a documentary that followed Bravo Company of the First Battalion, Third Marines, known as the Lava Dogs.

An article in The Journal News in March said the film, “Home of the Brave,” was to be Mr. Enright’s senior thesis. The article said that in October, Mr. Enright spent time at Kaneohe Bay in Hawaii filming the Marines as they prepared for deployment to Afghanistan. In April and May, he spent five weeks embedded with them in Afghanistan, according to military officials in Afghanistan. One of the members of the regiment was a friend from Brewster High School, Cpl. Alex Eckner.

In the article, Mr. Enright said that the experiences of Mr. Eckner led him to want to do the film.

Mr. Enright is also a volunteer with Intersections International, an initiative of the Collegiate Churches of New York that promotes justice and faith across religions and cultures. The organization, which covered part of Mr. Enright’s travel expenses to Afghanistan, has been a staunch supporter of the Islamic center near ground zero. Mr. Enright volunteered with the group’s veteran-civilian dialogue project.
Sanjay M
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by Sanjay M »

Still more:

abhishek_sharma
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Not Ready for Prime Time
The world’s leading international institutions may be outmoded, but Brazil, China, India, and South Africa are not ready to join the helm. Their shaky commitment to democracy, human rights, nuclear nonproliferation, and environmental protection would only weaken the international system’s core values.
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ ... prime-time

JORGE G. CASTAÑEDA was Mexico's Foreign Minister in 2000–2003. He teaches at New York University and is a member of the Board of Directors of Human Rights Watch and a Fellow at the New America Foundation.

What happened to Mexico?


Full article not free :((
Neshant
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by Neshant »

Interview of G Edward Griffin author of "The Creature from Jekyll Island"

The Dark Side of the Federal Reserve :

http://www.financialsensenewshour.com/b ... 0821-2.mp3
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by Philip »

Hitler was a veggie and suffered from excessive flatulence,say many sources.But he was quite "normal" in everyday attitude (giving his staff gifts,remembering B'days,dog lover,etc.) which is why the German people took to him and believed his promises of making Germany "great" again after enduring acute humiliation and economic suffering during the inter-war years.His policies were warped in the extreme-attitude towards Jews,Gypsies,Bolsheviks,etc.was hateful and vicious and partly due to his experiences in Vienna as a youth when the city was flooded by refugees from the east who upset the cosy lifestyle and economic wealth of the German community.Frustration at becoming an artist or architect -in fact he spent enormous time redesigning German cities during the war with Speer,while he was also planning the military campaigns and part of his masterplan was to remove/relocate innferior races from Germany so that he could "build" a new Germany in physical form as well as a purely Aryan nation.Shades of Nero here in retrospect!

Key Karzai Aide in Corruption Inquiry Is Linked to C.I.A.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/26/world ... l?ref=asia
KABUL, Afghanistan — The aide to President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan at the center of a politically sensitive corruption investigation is being paid by the Central Intelligence Agency, according to Afghan and American officials.


Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts met last Saturday in Kabul with President Hamid Karzai. Mr. Kerry said he believed that he had won a commitment from the Afghan president to allow an American-backed anticorruption unit to work unhindered.

Mohammed Zia Salehi, the chief of administration for the National Security Council, appears to have been on the payroll for many years, according to officials in Kabul and Washington. It is unclear exactly what Mr. Salehi does in exchange for his money, whether providing information to the spy agency, advancing American views inside the presidential palace, or both.

Mr. Salehi’s relationship with the C.I.A. underscores deep contradictions at the heart of the Obama administration’s policy in Afghanistan, with American officials simultaneously demanding that Mr. Karzai root out the corruption that pervades his government while sometimes subsidizing the very people suspected of perpetrating it.
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by ramana »

Re Gulen, even Syed Qutb had his US sojourn. Not to forget Maududdi too! In fact he is buried in US.
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by svinayak »

prad wrote:

The curriculum at these schools includes math, science, and Turkish- and English-language instruction, but there is a deeper agenda involved than pedagogy. Graduates of these schools can usually speak Turkish fluently, have been exposed to Turkish culture and history, and are prepared for careers in high places. In regions like Africa and Central Asia in particular, where quality education is difficult to come by, the children of the political elites who attend these schools usually have developed a deep affinity for Turkish culture. As a result, the Gulenists are able to raise a generation of diplomats, security professionals, economists and engineers who are more likely to take Turkish national interests into account when they reach positions of influence.
This is a master plan with a vision to bring back the glory
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by ramana »

..Of the Ottomon/Turkish which was ceded to the Arabs due to British plans post World War I.
JE Menon
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by JE Menon »

>>Graduates of these schools can usually speak Turkish fluently, have been exposed to Turkish culture and history, and are prepared for careers in high places.

One of those stratfantasies. Severely over-estimates their potential. Take for eg, the above sentence. Apart from the Turkic countries where the schools are does anyone seriously expect fluency in Turkish and exposure to Turkish culture is of any value beyond translation services, business executives, low level diplomats and the occasional well placed individual? Turkish fluency in Ethiopia, Cote d'Ivoire?

Not to suggest that the Gulen schools are completely useless. They certainly spread the Turkic culture to those who are rediscovering their ethnic roots in Central Asia, and to some extent probably a form of neo-imperial lite enterprise in the other countries.

Don't forget Friedman has a hardon for Turkey.

If you want to see a truly sly spread, check out the GEM schools by Sunny Varkey. A far more sophisticated approach than that of Gulen. And Varkey is Indian, a Mallu to boot.

http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/arab ... cleId=2438

"Knowledge@Wharton: How do you see your education empire evolving?

Varkey: We are growing both organically and inorganically. In the next 25 years, I see 5,000 schools with 5 million children. And there will be no compromise on quality."
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by ramana »

The Greek in you speaking. 8)

The STRATFOR article is not about education but about projecting an Islamist Turkish image in Turkic areas using schools.
JE Menon
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by JE Menon »

Fully understand what the article is about. That's the problem. It exaggerates. Actually Turkey is very focused. No denying the attempt by Gulen to push the Islamist Turkish image in Turkic areas, which is what I pointed out above. But the rest of it is rubbish, Cambodia, Laos, Ethiopia, Cote d'Ivoire, India, the US, etc...

Gulen's main aim is simply to undermine Kemalism from within and without, hoping to revive some of the Ottoman varnish in the process. Fat chance of that, so long as the army remains as it is. What is more likely to happen is that the non-Gulen Islamists within Turkey undermine the Kemalists more quickly and steadily through the democratic process, and if by some remote chance they actually topple Kemalism (not likely in the near future), the Gulen schools may be the first to go... for they do not by any means adhere to rigid madrassa standards as far as I know. Gulen is slowly transforming into a sort of cult figure, and this is not unnoticed.

However, the highest likelihood is that the Kemalist establishment transforms itself due to the exigencies of global and regional geopolitics. It will happen almost imperceptibly, but such a transformation will cut the nuts off people like Gulen.

Turkey is going to be a powerful state, but Friedman overstates the case - as he did in his book. But probably he wouldn't have sold as many copies if he said China and India and Brazil would be super-powers in the coming century. Interestingly, his book of predictions hardly mentions India. A sure case of intellectual laziness. I think it may be that since he does not understand the country, he chose not to include it in his future vision :rotfl:
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by Sanjay M »

After Tiger Woods' cheating was first caught by his wife, Chinese-made CG-animated re-enactment videos began appearing across the web. Now, after the NYC cabbie stabbing, the same stuff is being made to order:

ramana
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by ramana »

What is the technology used? Can we have group create similar techniques fro TSP?
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by Johann »

I've had a chance in the last few months to witness the *intense* increase in ties at every level between Turkey and Syria, and between Turkey and the Arab world in general. I believe the 80 odd years of estrangement between Arabs and Turks since WWI are basically over.

The Syrian-Turkish border is basically open for business, with *lots* of money pouring in either direction. Syria makes the most popular soap operas in the Arabic world, but within Syria itself Turkish soaps were what I saw the most of, although many people also like Indian films of course.

I'd say there are two key elements here;

The first is that Turkey is returning to an ethos that is something like that of the early Young Turks, a kind of progressive Ottomanism before the Balkan states ganged up on it 1911-1913 and pushed the movement in to a militaristic direction. The Young Turks saw Turkey as a modernising, but pluralistic bridge between Europe and the Middle East. Kemalism, the successor to the Young Turks attempted to redefine Turkey as a rigidly atheistic European state. The return of plural, modernising Ottomanist attitudes means a wilingness to engage with the Arab world again. The Arabs are only to happy to chum it up with a succesful Sunni state that has strong relationships with the EU, the US and Russia.

That brings the second factor up, which is that in economic terms the Ottoman Turkish project of economic and technological modernisation has *finally* reached maturity, over 160 years since it began with the Tanzimat. This dream of modernisation is one which all of the independent Arab states which the Ottoman Empire gave birth to also shared. It is the same excess of statism which suffocates economic dynamism which saddles states with oppressive police states. The fact that Turkey has actually got there, while democratising, and without entirely jettisoning its civilisational identity makes it deeply, deeply attractive to Syrians, Iraqis, Egyptians, etc.
ramana
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by ramana »

So you are saying that the Turks are again the leading inspiration for the Middle Eastern world? Where does that leave the outer Middle East -the Pakis?
Johann
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Re: Geopolitical thread

Post by Johann »

Ramana,

I think Turkey is going to be a model for the former Arab components of the Ottoman Empire, and to a lesser extent I think it will influence Iran as well - Iran was always playing catch up with the Ottoman Empire, just as the Shah's father tried to play catch up with Ataturk.

As for Pakistan...historically the Muslim Subcontinent captured the imagination of the wider Muslim world with three elements - cultural production (music/lit/architecture) and Islamic scholarship, while the third element that paid for the other two was fabulous wealth.

Pakistan has produced f()ck-all in any of those three departments....they've been too busy posing as a tough guy to do what all the great Muslim tough guys did so successfully which was to turn blood in to gold, and gold in to beauty.

If Pakistan is the heir of the Mughals and all that Turco-Persian sophistication, why doesn't it show? Perhaps because Pakistan went running after the only-recently-emerged-from-poverty Saudis instead of digging in to their own rich Islamic cultural heritage....and perhaps there is an ironic resonance in austere Saudi Islam for poor Pakistanis who have so little in this world, and who can hope for little more here. Meanwhile the Gulf Arabs grow better off, and more educated, and are starting to look around for loser interpretations of Islam....
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