People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

[shiv]

without getting into "fear" or "bravery", let's just say there is an open issue of "public confidence building" with respect to security that GoI needs to undertake by genuinely demonstrating and building capability. While I am more scared of our babu's sleeping rather than China, I don't blame anyone who's dhoti is shivering. I would rather prefer all the dhotis to shiver now rather than when China tries to do, let's just say, a "Kargil" on us. There will be plenty of time to mock those whose dhoti's are shivering after dealing with a major security issue successfully, but for now let the dhotis shiver - its helpful in putting fire under sleeping babus bottoms.

Dhiman I am not going to criticize you from saying this but you are saying nothing new. It is a repeat of all the "dhoti shivering" statements that one hears time and again - summed up by various statements like:


"We don't feel confidence"
"We would like to see moves that instil confidence'
"We are afraid that people are asleep on the job"

I have been asking people to address these fears one by one. And every time people address these fears they come to the conclusion that China is far more powerful and is getting more powerful and that India is heading for defeat.

We have to start from basic concerns and fears and work our way up int more nuanced ones.

That is why I asked the question: Do you think India will be defeated by China in a war if starts tomorrow? The armed forces seem to be fairly confident that they will not be defeated in such a war (starting tomorrow). Do you or do you not trust their opinion on the issue?

[RajeshA]

Why does the fear always have to be about defeat in war?
Why can't the fear concern be about loss of strategic space?
Why can't the fear concern be about political domination of India's neighborhood and beyond by another power?

Why does concern always have to be demeaned by calling it fear?

If the chaddi is too tight one better not twitch or move, because otherwise one would mocked for shivering in the dhoti!!!

[shiv]

Why does the fear always have to be about defeat in war?
Why can't the fear concern be about loss of strategic space?
Why can't the fear concern be about political domination of India's neighborhood and beyond by another power?

Why does concern always have to be demeaned by calling it fear?

Good questions IMO

I have no problem calling it concern rather than fear. But using it the other way around should not cause anyone discomfort. Fear per se is not a problem. But illusions of defeat at every step that stack up in a cascade are an impediment to rational discussion.

The reason I am starting with "war" and not "strategic space"or "political domination" are two fold

1)Defeat in war is the most fundamental defeat that can remove all chance of strategic space and political domination.

2) For the purposes of discussion we need to know exactly waht we are talking about. For example if we say "Babooze are asleep on the job" - do we mean that they are going to allow a military victory for China. Or are they going to allow political domination by China or are they going to help India lose strategic space.

We have to start somewhere and I am starting with a question about war. By pinning down views about war I am basically trapping people into committing themselves about views on war so that in a future discussion about Political or strategic space nobody has a chance to confuse the issue and saying "Oh but there will be war and we will lose".

Let's get war out of the way. I want to get the war fears/concerns behind first. Once that "fear' is pinned down, I will move on to the next step which surely must include issues of strategic space and political domination.

[harbans]

Rajesh ji, good points. However this one:

Why can't the fear concern be about loss of strategic space?

Problem is India's idealist and Psec leaders never had/ have the fear/ concern for loss of strategic space. This can be stretched a bit further we even dismissed loss of land as "not a blade of grass grows there". Our biggest loss of strategic space has been our Psec brigade which have justified China's aggression and occupation over Tibet. Our loss of strategic space is our not being able to influence neighbours to follow our value systems based on Pluralism, democracy etc. IT's only by default as our economy develops that they themselves are beginning to look to the Indian model as an alternate to China's. India can even today redeem strategic space by threatening to revoke previous recognition of Chiona's occupation of Tibet and harping on the 1960's UN resolutions for Tibetan rights to self determination.

[brihaspati]

It could be fear, yes, no doubt about it. But what human does not know fear faced with possibility of death, pain or destruction of what he holds dear?
<snip>
To establish real military capability in the public eye, actual victories in large scale conflicts were needed, and from time to time - to prove consistency. In the absence of both political evidence as well as military evidence, it is reasonable to expect the civilian to become doubtful. He can be pitied for his supposed lack of confidence, but cannot be mocked at for cowardice or fear for his lack of knowledge of the exquisite preparations for all exigencies that might have been secretly put in place by a government and its military wing.

Brihaspatiji I do not want to get into a semantics argument with you, but my objection to this post is as follows:

In summary the above quoted lines say: "It is OK to be afraid. But that fear needs to be assuaged by visible proof that there is no need to be afraid. That visible proof can be provided by military victory from time to time, in the absence of which the civilian will become doubtful"

That means that in order to prove to a mass of people (civilians) that they need not be afraid - some people (eg soldiers/army) must die from time to time in conflict giving direct, timely and periodic evidence to the ever afraid masses that someone is going to fight and die for them. In other words someone else's bodies need to be sacrificed from time to time to assuage the fear of the masses that their own bodies may be spared.

This is the psyche of cowardice - where the masses demand that someone else is brave to reassure them. That someone else is expected to be unnatural and not fear for his life and body. On the other hand it is OK and natural for the masses (civilians?) to be afraid.

A society that thinks is this manner is a selfish dhoti shivering society that will not produce enough people who are unafraid of losing their lives. Fortunately, India is not such a society although the Indian elite, including some on BRF are dhoti shiverers.

In my view that selfish dhoti shivering precludes rational thought on how to deal with China. The fact that soldiers have lived and died in the mountains in the North and west counts for nothing. We are still looking for more proof, more reassurance so that our "natural and understandable" fears can be assuaged. There is no way of assuaging such a fearful society. They need to be defeated and subjugated. And if the society is really that way - someone will, sooner or later, subjugate them.

First not everyone in India wears the dhoti : are you consistently insisting that only "dhoti-clads" are shiverers and you exclude the lungi/chaddi/pajama/choost/sherwani-clads of India from being shiverers? Since dhoti is typically associated with Hindus and mocked at by non-Hindus in some cases in a similar way - I object to singling out a proper subset of Indian populations only for cowardice.

Second - no you cannot combine that "fear is a normal response in humans" with "cowardly dhoti-shivering demand for soldiers to sacrifice their lives". All my post said that it was natural to expect the civilian who is kept in the dark about military capacities (or who may not have the professional expertise to understand even if told) or who has not seen proof of victory against large scale assault by China to be doubtful about future capacities.

What you are suggesting is that no doubts can ever be expressed that challenges the claims of future invincibility by the authorities. Any doubts expressed amounts to cowardice. Just as those who doubt cannot prove that their doubts will turn out to be true, the government and army cannot also prove that their claims will also turn out to be true - because both are about future events.

Moreover a few civilian doubters have never affected what the GOI has done or what the army has prepared for, so why this demand that doubters "prove" their fears are justified or keep shut - and stamp them with the culturally associated apparel of a particular community? Those doubting voices do not even matter - isn't it?

I personally have consistently maintained that I do not want our soldier's lives to be lost. It appears that it is only we civilians are demanders of and responsible for military casualties, whereas the actual command decisions that place soldiers at risk are made by non-civilians. Maybe doubters should seriously start looking at who makes the decisions and under what circumstances - and what they reveal about the deciders - that leads to loss of soldiers lives - which then gets blamed on cowardly civilian dhoti-shiverers infantile demand for soldier's lives. I have heard from one of the strongmen of the congress who visited soldiers in hospital from the "NEFA" campaign against the PLA, that some of the soldiers broke down saying that they did not have sufficient clothes or guns, that their hands froze before they could pull the trigger. I followed that up with Kaul's brilliant apology of a book about how he was not responsible. Same goes for other commanders versions. No one was responsible except the whipping boy Menon. So the GOI except Menon was not responsible, Kaul and his fellow command was not responsible, the PM was not responsible - obviously only one candidate remains - the dhoti-shiverer who demands soldier's lives!

Once again, I say that since every loss of soldier's lives get fixed on a particular community's cowardice, let us raise a force distinct from the army, from that dhoti-shiverers who can be used beyond borders if necessary for unmentionable acts. The army stays strictly within its official role and builds up on the perfect capability for defense against any possible attacks from the outside. The unmentionable cowardly force does whatever dirty job needs to be done to alter the political maps of the neighbourhood without the loss of soldier's lives. How about it?

[shiv]

First not everyone in India wears the dhoti : are you consistently insisting that only "dhoti-clads" are shiverers and you exclude the lungi/chaddi/pajama/choost/sherwani-clads of India from being shiverers?

No. It is not meant literally. The expression is used in the context of the collection of a whole bunch of concerns being frequently expressed as what I see as an irrational fear that China is about to checkmate, restrict, defeat and dismember India. I believe that if we on BRF need to talk about China we have to start by addressing these fears and concerns exactly by listing each one and asking how serious it is or whether it is not serious. For example how serious is the build up near Arunachal Pradesh versus the so called "String of Pearls"?

Most often China and discussions of China cause a vague unease and anxiety which usually lead the discussion in the direction of "We are going to lose", "We are finished" - for a variety of reasons. Build up at Arunachal Pradesh, soldiers in POK, string of pearls + 400 nukes + India led by a foreigner = defeated India.

In my view anxiety about China is far greater than it needs to be in some areas and this causes a lack of realism and a demand for unusual emphasis on reactions to China that may (in my view) be totally pointless and even worthless. I believe the only way of sorting out the Gordian knot of China-generated Indian anxieties is to pick up each individual stream of concern and deal with it on its merits rather than dealing with China as a jumbled up mass of anxiety-generating issues. That seems to be the favored approach as far a I have seen. Not by everyone - but by a number of people that is significant enough to make discussions lead to untenable solutions.

[brihaspati]

The sources of anxiety about China come from three sources :
(1) Chinese sponsorship and virtual cover for Paki jihad against India
(2) Chinese sponsorship of Maoists and separatists in NE
(3) economic penetration and capturing of domestic as well as international markets

Exactly the same concerns could have been valid against UK and USA. But they do not appear in the public consciousness as much as China does over exactly the same three issues. This could partly be psychological in a colonial connection with the Anglo-Saxon world, but also due to the much greater interaction and communication that exists with the other two.

But even more than this the real sources of anxiety about China is because the position and intention about China - from teh side of the GOI is not clear, and often ambiguous or self-contradictory to the public eye. Having had prior dubious experience of hot-and-cold blowing with respect to China and the only second country after Pak to have actually managed to hold on to illegally occupied Indian territory - which India has so far not been able to recover or not deemed fit to recover - it is the attitude/statements/and tangible action from GOI side which generates the anxiety.

Almost anyone with rudimentary reasoning - and need not be whizkids from the OTA - can think out that the "string of pearls" are vulnerable to Indian attack, and even nuke submarines of China in IOR are to a large extent duds or sitting ducks if India chooses to. But all that vulnerability will mean nothing if the GOI does not intend to use that vulnerability or has ambiguous or confused or hidden motivations about China. It is more a trust issue with GOI functioing than with China.

We can ridicule that trust-issue from the civilian side, but it is perhaps not justified to ask that very same civilian side to take the initiative in "trust-building", since all the tools for that trust-building are in the hands of GOI.

[rohitvats]

While your post is in response to one post by Shiv, I have serious disagreement with some of your assertions.

Second - no you cannot combine that "fear is a normal response in humans" with "cowardly dhoti-shivering demand for soldiers to sacrifice their lives". All my post said that it was natural to expect the civilian who is kept in the dark about military capacities (or who may not have the professional expertise to understand even if told) or who has not seen proof of victory against large scale assault by China to be doubtful about future capacities.

A layman being fearful of the Chinese for the memory of the 1962 still rankles is one thing - but posters on BRF, who have either access to public information or can gain access to the said information - falling head over heals for the "PLA so strong and invinsible" is completely another thing. My personnel beef has been with the latter situation - I'm sure people on this forum have basic analytical capability to do some analysis at least when news about developments pertaining to PLA or CCP emerge - how many have done that? Rather, each piece of news is taken at face value and the armageddon scenario for India constructed. How come 'evidence' is expected of India but everything taken at face value when it comes to Chinese propaganda?

What you are suggesting is that no doubts can ever be expressed that challenges the claims of future invincibility by the authorities. Any doubts expressed amounts to cowardice. Just as those who doubt cannot prove that their doubts will turn out to be true, the government and army cannot also prove that their claims will also turn out to be true - because both are about future events.

Expressing doubts because one has not bothered to analyse the news/information and then demanding reassurance falls into the category of 'cowardice' and 'dhoti-shivering behaviour'..........Which again brings me back to the basic and fundamental question of this entire debate - how come no doubts are expressed at news coming from across the Great Wall of China? Why is that taken at face value? Why this inferiority complex? What does this behaviour tells you?

Moreover a few civilian doubters have never affected what the GOI has done or what the army has prepared for, so why this demand that doubters "prove" their fears are justified or keep shut - and stamp them with the culturally associated apparel of a particular community? Those doubting voices do not even matter - isn't it?

I think it has become fashionable to doubt everything Indian and again, take every thing coming from CCP at face value.....so much so that in every equation, the war is already lost for India without the first shot having being fired. Those doubts have gone beyond the reasoned apprehensions of a educated person - they have reached a stage where the learned posters on BRF have taken it to fear mongering level. So, every thing China does is a done thing and spells doom for India.

I personally have consistently maintained that I do not want our soldier's lives to be lost. It appears that it is only we civilians are demanders of and responsible for military casualties, whereas the actual command decisions that place soldiers at risk are made by non-civilians. Maybe doubters should seriously start looking at who makes the decisions and under what circumstances - and what they reveal about the deciders - that leads to loss of soldiers lives - which then gets blamed on cowardly civilian dhoti-shiverers infantile demand for soldier's lives. I have heard from one of the strongmen of the congress who visited soldiers in hospital from the "NEFA" campaign against the PLA, that some of the soldiers broke down saying that they did not have sufficient clothes or guns, that their hands froze before they could pull the trigger. I followed that up with Kaul's brilliant apology of a book about how he was not responsible. Same goes for other commanders versions. No one was responsible except the whipping boy Menon. So the GOI except Menon was not responsible, Kaul and his fellow command was not responsible, the PM was not responsible - obviously only one candidate remains - the dhoti-shiverer who demands soldier's lives!

IMO, this is outside my context of reply to you.

Once again, I say that since every loss of soldier's lives get fixed on a particular community's cowardice, let us raise a force distinct from the army, from that dhoti-shiverers who can be used beyond borders if necessary for unmentionable acts. The army stays strictly within its official role and builds up on the perfect capability for defense against any possible attacks from the outside. The unmentionable cowardly force does whatever dirty job needs to be done to alter the political maps of the neighbourhood without the loss of soldier's lives. How about it?

Same as above.

[brihaspati]

rohitvats ji,
both you and shiv ji have taken three elements in my post and claimed they mean something you interpret as. That is fine, since everyone can interpret everyone else's words according to their sweet will - but that remains their personal interpretation.

I simply said that "fear is a normal human response", and that "doubts and fears" crept up because of lack of evidence as perceived by the civilian who may not have the professional expertise to equate 1000X machine 1+10000X machine 2+100000X soldiers with complete security and matching if not superior capability from the PLA for foreseeable future for all possible scenarios.

The lack of evidence angle which I illustrated by saying that since 62 there has not been any large scale conflict which India has won against China the people have not had proof of Indian capability was then stretched to mean that "Indian people" demand soldiers get killed in proving capabilities in war and therefore they are "dhoti-shiverers". The term itself is objectionable since it is associated culturally with the Hindus. "Dhoti-clad Hindoo/babu" was the typical start of any mocking passages by the Brits in their glory days of imperial power when they wanted to intellectually bash the common Indian, and one of the reasons that a lot of nationalists around MKG began to sport it with pride. Most satyagrahis who got the danda on the head got it wearing the dhoti. A person I respect mot lost his eye when a baton was introduced into his eye and he remembered that he also bled on his dhoti at the time. The image of British-bootlickers is what comes to my mind when I come across the abuse against the "dhoti".

What I said about the lack of "evidence" cannot be stretched to attribute "cowardice and demand for soldiers lives". Accusations of cowardice should not be made so lightly and not on the commons so easily. Cowardice or bravery depends on the context and how people face potential death and pain and is not the monopoly one way or the other of any professional group or any subgroup. Many of the civilians have faced death with non-chalance when they felt duty called. Mere anxiety is not a proof of "cowardice".

As I had already further elaborated - that anxiety is more a trust issue with the GOI's intention rather than capabilities. However, if the "doubters" cannot prove their doubts - same goes for capabilities of the GOI or the army - they both lie in the future for actual proof.

Finally, all analysis of what is supposedly available in the public domain about the relative strengths of the military capabilities of IA and PLA - will remain incomplete and unrealistic because information will also be incomplete from both sides. Speculating on that basis be best left for those who think they are in the know - and if they really know they will be restricted in what they can say. So no amount of analysis from the strict military viewpoint is going to shed enough light that will reflect the reality of the situation. Yes the PLA probably makes a lot of noises, and pretends and drums more than they have or can do - but once we allow that they are lying in pumping things up, we will have to allow some people to think that they may not be drumming up but drumming down - saying actually less than what they have done or accumulated. Lies can go both ways isn't it? or that they claim things in an area while they are building up elsewhere etc.

[Kanson]

Why does the fear always have to be about defeat in war?
Why can't the fear concern be about loss of strategic space?
Why can't the fear concern be about political domination of India's neighborhood and beyond by another power?

Why does concern always have to be demeaned by calling it fear?

If the chaddi is too tight one better not twitch or move, because otherwise one would mocked for shivering in the dhoti!!!

hi....2 useless cents

It becomes fear and not concern as we already had 1962 exp. Becoz of the defeat in war, we lost strategic space and as well as our image in our neighborhood. It(war victory) is as if projected as Communism win over Indian republic.

[shiv]

Exactly the same concerns could have been valid against UK and USA. But they do not appear in the public consciousness as much as China does over exactly the same three issues. This could partly be psychological in a colonial connection with the Anglo-Saxon world, but also due to the much greater interaction and communication that exists with the other two.

Absolutely!!!!!!!

That is, in fact a point I have made to no avail. And that is part of the reason for my frustration with what I see as mindless fear of China.

One of the things that I feel is that if the immediate military threat from China is neutralised we are then left with the three things you have named:

(1) Chinese sponsorship and virtual cover for Paki jihad against India
(2) Chinese sponsorship of Maoists and separatists in NE
(3) economic penetration and capturing of domestic as well as international markets

I have every reason to believe that the military threat of China may well be the easiest one to face off because that is the one that has received the greatest attention.

But the responses to the three points you have named are less easy and each needs to be discussed on its own, as a separate heading. I for one would be glad to do that.

[TonyMontana]

Both entities therefore prove that they really do not belong to the human domain

the damn yellow cockroach eating slanteye Chinese.

has prepared the Han Chinese for the nuclear SAMSON sword ...

For a mintue there I thought I opened Stromfront.org instead of BRF. But then it hit me. BRF is the equivalent of StromFront for Indians. If people only came to BRF, they probably think Indians are all 7ft tall warriors-kings that kicks ass and takes names. Just like stromfront thinks all Aryans are blonde blue eyed warrior-poets. But thankfully, for the Chinese' sake, BRF only represent a small part of Indian society.

Pakistanis were Indians. 100% Indians.

You see a lot don't you doctor. Why don't you turn that high-powered perception at yourself and tell us what you see, or, maybe you're afraid to.

I have an alternative interpretation. Pakistanis were Indians, that means Indians are Pakistanis. Indians are capable of doing everything that the Chinese and Pakistanis are doing. You want to do everything that we do. Look at the suggestions made by posters in this and other threads. You want to be to China, what Pakistan is to India. But the saddest part is that at least the Pakistani/Indians has that "we-don't-give-a-fark-ness", which translate into real life actions.

If most indians do indeed think like BRFite, then we Chinese and Pakistanis do indeed need to be worried. But alas, while most Chinese think like me, and most Pakis think like Pakis, BRFites are a minority in India. Count the Indians that think like BRFites. Then count the Indians that call our Chairman, your chairman. Then you have your answer.

[Dhiman]

Dhiman I am not going to criticize you from saying this but you are saying nothing new. It is a repeat of all the "dhoti shivering" statements that one hears time and again - summed up by various statements like:

"We don't feel confidence"
"We would like to see moves that instil confidence'
"We are afraid that people are asleep on the job"

Shiv Sir, I think bhraspatiji's above posts regarding the validity of dhoti shivering have summarized by own views quite well, so not much for me to add here except to repeat that the onus is on GoI to constructively address any general dhoti shivering with respect to security issues.

That is why I asked the question: Do you think India will be defeated by China in a war if starts tomorrow?

I can only assume that by "war" you mean a full-scale non-nuclear conflict. In this case, I see the war starting out by Chinese making, what is intended to be, a short-surgical ground push for Tawang and scoring initial wins. Within a week of this high-intensity low firepower conflict, Indian forces in Tawang are ready to get run over. The conflict is expensive in terms of lives lost on both Chinese and Indian side (my guess is 1000 within a week). Images of 1962 style fiasco come back to haunt both public and government and anger within India rises exponentially. This is where a full-scale conflict starts from the Indian side, by GoI pressing missiles and IAF to target Chinese supply lines and Navy to blockade Chinese trade in IOR. As a result of this Navy blockade, stock markets across the world collapse and an already fragile global economy starts to unwind further.

After a few days or targeting Chinese supply lines, Indian army makes another ground push for Tawang and appears to be gaining ground against Chinese forces with strained supply lines. Another 1,000 lives are lost now. CCP now sensing defeat, starts targeting Indian supply lines and opens up multiple fronts.

Full scale conflict rages for several weeks with combined death toll approaching 50,000, long Chinese supply lines across Tibet in complete disarray, Indian supply lines in border areas facing strain, and global economy going into an irrecoverable crash as a result of Indian Navy starting to visibly sink Chinese shipping. Common Tibetans start to die from hunger by thousands as all food and resources are directed to Chinese troops.

Ultimately at the back of better supply lines, Indian army makes ground push in Tibet and is able to advance and hold upto 50km of Tibet in parallel with Indian border. Public and Tibetian pressure won't let GoI withdraw while as CCP face savers won't call for or accept ceasefire. After all the big weapons have been exhausted, the conflict continues in a low intensity phase for years.

The final result is that Global economy is completely wreaked for the short term. In the long term, China has learned to pay exorbitant costs to ship oil from middle-east to China via Atlantic and pacific oceans, the world has learned to locally manufacture goods (which leads to an economic boom in western world), and India and China have both gone back to the days of zero or negative economic growth. No end to low intensity low firepower fighting in sight with the only consolation from the Indian side being that the fighting zone is on the Chinese side - in 50 km wide zone in Tibet along the Indian border.

[Dhiman]

For a mintue there I thought I opened Stromfront.org instead of BRF. But then it hit me. BRF is the equivalent of StromFront for Indians. If people only came to BRF, they probably think Indians are all 7ft tall warriors-kings that kicks ass and takes names. Just like stromfront thinks all Aryans are blonde blue eyed warrior-poets. But thankfully, for the Chinese' sake, BRF only represent a small part of Indian society.

LOL, Do you not ever get tired of farting. By the way don't forget that you are from China and a CCP loving Chinese at that. Its funny how all these Chinese start talking chingrezi in public (equality, ethics, racism, etc) as if they are from Norway. Who are you trying to hide from?

If most indians do indeed think like BRFite, then we Chinese and Pakistanis do indeed need to be worried. But alas, while most Chinese think like me, and most Pakis think like Pakis, BRFites are a minority in India.

Ya, I suppose you know Pakis better than we do and you also seem to know Indians better than we do.

[svinayak]

LOL, Do you not ever get tired of farting. By the way don't forget that you are from China and a CCP loving Chinese at that. Its funny how all these Chinese start talking chingrezi in public (equality, ethics, racism, etc) as if they are from Norway. Who are you trying to hide from?

It is good that they are getting some nightmares.

[Airavat]

But alas, while most Chinese think like me, and most Pakis think like Pakis, BRFites are a minority in India.

You conducted opinion polls in three separate countries? While parked on your a$$ in front of a computer? What new superhuman Chinese ability is this?

[TonyMontana]

^

No one says we Chinese are saints here. I'm just pointing that Indians are just as black, if not more so, as us. You don't have to look further then the Hindu-Moslem bloodletting inside India to see what you're capable of. As for nightmares, I browse BRF with the same detachment as I do browsing StormFront. You guys are the ones getting angry and emotional. (Justified I must concede) To me, and IMHO, most Chinese, India is just another problem to solve. And if you look at it subjectively, impossible I know, India is a problem we are in the process of solving.

Ever seen a Paki talk about how much better Pakistan is to India? How India is going to fail? How India would burn in a nuclear fire? Do you not see the similarities?

BRFites gives Pakis so much grief. Look at the Paki POV thread recently. Do you not see that subconciously you want to be like them? And indeed, sometimes behave like them? And the fact that India don't even have the balls to become a Pakistan to China speaks volumes.

[sanjaykumar]

For Indians, being harangued by a Shaolin priest is like being lectured by one's son.

[Hari Seldon]

The drone now drones on. Sometimes from New Zealand, sometimes from Cube-aah. LOL.

Wanting to perhaps shame 'em Yindics by wantonly spraying accusations of racism, pakiphilia, amorality and such hoping some will stick and bring out the notorious Yindic self-goal self-flagell instict, I'm sure.

LOL.

Took moi a while to realize displaying being decent or fair with cheeni drones is a one-way street. One's decency and sense of fairplay is twisted and used against oneself by drone training.

yeah, jai hu - jai mao and all that.

[shiv]

I have an alternative interpretation. Pakistanis were Indians, that means Indians are Pakistanis. Indians are capable of doing everything that the Chinese and Pakistanis are doing. You want to do everything that we do. Look at the suggestions made by posters in this and other threads. You want to be to China, what Pakistan is to India.

Indians and Pakistanis are alike. Indians are already doing what Pakistanis are doing (or vice versa). India already is to China what Pakistan is to India. We would like to do better though.

[Arjun]

Tony, was awaiting your return.

Can you respond with your thoughts to two of my posts below:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 07#p973907

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 31#p973931

Look forward to your views.

[Airavat]

Divorce rates rising in Sichuan province

According to the Ministry of Civil Affairs, some 1.3 million couples got divorced nationwide in the first nine months of this year, and Sichuan topped the list of divorcees with 102,596 couples untying the knot. Social mobility has played a role in the jump in the province's divorce rate, according to Chen Kefu, deputy chief of the Sichuan provincial department of civil affairs.

Each year, millions of young migrant workers from Sichuan leave the province in search of better job opportunities, leaving behind their spouses, which causes rifts among them, Chen said.

Guang Wei, a sociology expert with the Sichuan Academy of Social Sciences, blamed the earthquake in the province's Wenchuan county on May 12, 2008, for the rise in the divorce rate. After experiencing the 8-magnitude earthquake, which killed more than 69,000 and left 18,000 missing, many Sichuan residents began thinking life was short and unpredictable, and decided to live each day to the fullest, Guang said.

If they do not get along with their spouses, they decide to part ways, he said.

Isn't that the normal reason for a divorce around the world? This "expert" seems to be well versed in Lahori logic.

[shiv]

I can only assume that by "war" you mean a full-scale non-nuclear conflict. In this case, I see..

Dhiman thanks for taking the time out to state your view.

On the general topic of "dhoti shivering" I find that your post does not allow any further discussion of that subject for the simple reason that you had the choice of saying "India will lose/has already lost" and in your assessment you disagreed with that contention. In my view most forum discussions of China get held up at this point. When you perceive China as breathing down India's neck and ready to inflict military defeat with or without provocation, the scope for discussing anything else is restricted to one single outcome on the lines of: "India tries X in the north. China defeats India in war. India tries Y in the Indian ocean. China defeats India in war. India tries Z in the far east. China defeats India in war."

Whether I agree with your scenario or not is not germane to the issue - I am in agreement that war is the most costly option for China and in fact a war stared by China may offer India the best opportunity to make politico-military points that are otherwise more difficult to make. You have stated that India is unlikely to start a war. I agree with that, but I would add that China too is unlikely to start war. War is the most costly option for both India and China and here is where Tony Montana is wrong in his assessment of Pakistan. Pakistan has chosen war as the best option. That has helped both China and the US, but it has not helped Pakistan.

Unless it is essential, this is the last post I am going to make on the subject of war and "dhoti shivering" because if we can get the "war war war, defeat defeat defeat of India" fear out of the way it gets easier to talk about the three points that brihaspati mentioned:

The sources of anxiety about China come from three sources :
(1) Chinese sponsorship and virtual cover for Paki jihad against India
(2) Chinese sponsorship of Maoists and separatists in NE
(3) economic penetration and capturing of domestic as well as international markets

But I will make one last point about war. The more desperate, decrepit and ungovernable a country is the easier it gets for that entity to sink into a state of war - either civil war or war with an external enemy. As long as India is growing and prospering despite its egregious neighbors, India is unlikely to want to provoke war. But if India is pushed to the wall and goes into a state of chronic lack of growth - it would then become a more and more attractive option for India to provoke war with China in the same way that Pakitsan has found it OK to provoke war with India. So I would not rule out India starting war with China. A lot depends on how attractive that war is from an internal political point of view.

I will now move on to brihaspati's points...

[Arjun]

As for nightmares, I browse BRF with the same detachment as I do browsing StormFront. You guys are the ones getting angry and emotional. (Justified I must concede) To me, and IMHO, most Chinese, India is just another problem to solve. And if you look at it subjectively, impossible I know, India is a problem we are in the process of solving.

Hmm...so we are dealing with a detached, cool, objective race out here. And how does this extremely objective and unemotional race of people react to Japan's arrest of a fishing boat captain, the most silly reason for a high-level dispute that one has ever heard of: China's Premier Threatens Japan Over Boat Dispute

China reacts with impotent rage, memories of a century of humiliation, and as this article highlights- trembling with anger and emotion !!

I bet you if India had done anything close to China as what China has done to India (eg proliferation of nuclear weapons to enemy state and other provocations) the Chinese would be frothing, foaming and spitting with rage...!! If anything India has been the one to react far more objectively.

[Pranav]

The warfare style adopted by Pak and China is terrorism from behind nuclear shield.

In this type of warfare, the aggressors feel that the enemy will blink before they do.

Factors that come into play are:
(1) whether enemy country can be completely annihilated
(2) whether your own country will be completely annihilated or whether there is good chance of partial survival.
(3) how much the leadership cares about its population being harmed. Also, to what extent the leadership can contemplate harming civilian populations in other countries.
(4) the ideological commitment of the leadership - whether they are mainly concerned about living a luxurious life with money looted from the poor, or whether they have religious or ideological motivations

[svinayak]

The warfare style adopted by Pak and China is terrorism from behind nuclear shield.

These are artificial states which do not have the confidence of a nation.

[Arjun]

Ever seen a Paki talk about how much better Pakistan is to India? How India is going to fail? How India would burn in a nuclear fire? Do you not see the similarities?

No similarities at all.

1. Pakistanis are largely driven by Islamist religious anger- witness their coronation as terrorism central for Islam providing foot soldiers for global jihad. Indian actions on the other hand are driven by the objective desire of not wanting to see India's rise and growth curtailed. Leave alone religion- Indians in general are not even driven by revenge, even though some of China's actions such as the proliferation to Pak could have provoked calls for revenge.

2. Bhutto (Paki prime minister of the 70s) made the infamous statement that Pakis would eat grass for however long it takes, but focus would not shift from wresting Kashmir from India. This reflects the feeling of most ordinary Pakis. This is a statement and thinking that could never ever and will never ever come from any Indian...Indians will grow at 8 - 10% year -on year...and there is no question of sacrificing our internal growth on any altar.

3. If you want more, google up a comparison of Indian and Pakistani communities, who come from very similar backgrounds, in the UK after both have emigrated in large numbers over the large several decades to Britain - and make your own judgements as to how similar they are.

[JwalaMukhi]

Nice try. India wants to be like pak to what pak is to India. Man! this is hilarious stuff. Thought we only needed BENIS thread, maybe we should have one similar to that for the CPC.
India does not have to be like anybody else. India just is and will be just like India. That's enough to send nightmares to chinese. BTW when are you guys opening up to let some sunlight in. Because sunlight is the best antidote to all the maladies of the CPC.
Indians are very sure of themselves, that they do not have to resort to sending "your chailman is our chailman " crowd to gulags for reeducation. But allow such low lives to continue and rabble rouse in India. Well, the fear of loss of face is very actue in CPC, that resorts to lip synching for simple issue.
Anyways, sunlight aka solar energy is best and free. That will do a world of good. India will be India, well china wants to be without sunlight. That's tough, Tiananmenesque people blowing trumpets on an open forum while trained in gulags and reeducation camps, provides lot of hilarious entertainment. BTW you do not have to borrow neighbours sunlight, the one that is closest would do plenty to all.

[brihaspati]

TonyMonatana's desperation is obvious. He wants to do the same equal=equal that usually our own domestic WKK's are fond of, and when Pakis want to do equal-equal between atrocities that Pakis carry out and imagined atrocities done by India.

Now TonyMontana has to consistently ignore all the posts that have been made here showing that his China is a police state, without any popular or democratic representation, that his country's legal system is a medieval barbarism and a sham, that his country's citizens are subject to movement and residence controls like Nazi Germany, that all his country's papers and media are muzzled bull mastiffs chained and prodded by the government, that prostitution is increasing, that people get evicted, and that common people have no means of redress or showing dissent. His country has no real health care system, and people cannot manage the fees required for complicated treatments.

In India, at least there are means of giving publicity to grievances if nothing else. He is here not to contribute anything, but basically to tout the excellence of the Communist Party and the PLA. He claims "equality" in the darkness department, but his own regime is staunchly on the claim that the Chinese are descended directly from Homo Erectus of the Asian branch and therefore are separate from the rest of us modern humans. He does not want to go into that particular insanity from his communist overlords and tries to divert attention from the context of my comment about "not of human origin". So he has to compare it with Stormfront.

Note how carefully he has avoided responding all our posts and pointers to what barbarianism his regime of communists actually represent on ground. He has never responded to factual criticism of any aspect of CPC rule. He only mocks and stretches any concrete argument - hoping that serious posters will get angry and abuse him back in his own terms - so that then he can do an equal equal.

Do not waste time on him. He will never accept anything that goes against the communist party.

TonyMonatan ji,
you are perhaps not aware of the fact that I am personally well versed in how communist propagandists are trained, and have known how communist structures especially "mass fronts" and agitators in them are trained and brought up - first hand. I have deliberately drawn you out in arguments along a certain line, and what came out consistently was that you were mortally scared of criticizing your party. That is almost surely an indication of what your affiliations are. I would suggest you get more careful in pushing the CPC agenda here. Some of us could have backgrounds and networks to find out information even from communist circles - and just the PLA at China's borders need not be a good barrier.

There is an old Indian saying - what would you do if the ghost is in the mustard itself? Try to find that meaning out - and a lot of what I have said about the future of the CPC will perhaps then make sense. Do not serve an organization that may ultimately betray you and do not rely on its supposed claims of monolithic party solidarity.

[shiv]

Tony Montana is here for timepass. He is a "Non resident Chinese" who lives in the west. His views offer an equally interesting timepass viewpoint. Like sitting in a doctor's waiting room for hours but finding loads of p0rn to look at while waiting.

[sanjaykumar]

Do not waste time on him. He will never accept anything that goes against the communist party.


Some of us do not have to eat the whole egg to know that it is rotten.

[TonyMontana]

^^
Indians posting on PakistaniDefence. Blacks posting on StormFront. Chinese posting on BRF.
The reactions are almost identical. And in hind sight, predictable. Hate and prejudice can be rationalised very easily.

When I first started posting, believe it or not, I felt tremendous sympathy and goodwill towards Indians. Maybe it's my luck that I never met a Indian as nationalistic as some posters are on BRF, in real life. But my attitude has changed somewhat.

A Persia saying goes:" Arabs at your feet, or Arabs at your throat." I guess this applies to the Indians too. Indeed. It applies to everybody.

I thank the Lord Jesus Christ and Buddha everyday, that so far, as of today, China is higher on the pecking order then India. I'm indeed thankful, that Chinese leaders, dispite of all the nasty things they've done, has the foresight to see that India would become a threat if not effectively checked and managed.

The conflict, that is the right word, between India and China today are not new. Empires and States has been doing this for a long time now. And it heartens me that even the most Jingoest of Indians still need China to fark up before India could get anywhere. All the talks of: The Chinese economy will collapse, so we can..so they will be... There will be uprisings in China, then we can...that allows us...The Pakistanis will nuke India, we can then...

The ball is never in India's court. There is never talks of: India need to do this and this and this, so if China continues on her present course of growth, India will....India can.... Maybe the rational one already knew that unless the Chinese farks up themselves, like the rabbit and the turtle, the turtle already lost the race.

But I ramble.

[Pranav]

^^
Indians posting on PakistaniDefence. Blacks posting on StormFront. Chinese posting on BRF.
The reactions are almost identical. And in hind sight, predictable. Hate and prejudice can be rationalised very easily.

When I first started posting, believe it or not, I felt tremendous sympathy and goodwill towards Indians. Maybe it's my luck that I never met a Indian as nationalistic as some posters are on BRF, in real life. But my attitude has changed somewhat.

....

But I ramble.

Yes, you do ramble, unfortunately.

You would do well to address the many pointed questions that have been asked. One was hopeful that some progress could be made, but you assiduously ignore all the important points.

[TonyMontana]

Some of us could have backgrounds and networks to find out information even from communist circles - and just the PLA at China's borders need not be a good barrier.

Brihaspati-ji.

I do not doubt your ability to find out information at all. If you could forgive me for any offences caused, I would pledge that I would not longer speak to you unless spoken to. As you know us Chinese are not warriors. More merchants then anything else. We shy away from conflict. Especially real life ones.

I take your threat very seriously.

Again. Apologies.

[Arjun]

Yes you ramble. Looking for response to my earlier posts..do you want me to repost for your benefit?

[TonyMontana]

You would do well to address the many pointed questions that have been asked. One was hopeful that some progress could be made, but you assiduously ignore all the important points.

I have tried in the past to answer, but my thought out answers as some posters would say, are farts.

[Pranav]

You would do well to address the many pointed questions that have been asked. One was hopeful that some progress could be made, but you assiduously ignore all the important points.

I have tried in the past to answer, but my thought out answers as some posters would say, are farts.

Well, you could start by giving your rationalization for Chinese policy of proxy terrorism from behind a nuclear shield. You have not addressed this so far.

[shiv]

I have tried in the past to answer, but my thought out answers as some posters would say, are farts.

No No Montanaji. You have one supporter in me.

You say things that I find very interesting even if I use your views as "one data point" in the tapestry of information I am building up about China.

[shiv]

Well, you could start by giving your rationalization for Chinese policy of proxy terrorism from behind a nuclear shield. You have not addressed this so far.

Actually he has. In an oblique and indirect way. As long as the Chinese people are having a good time what the CPC does is of little concern to them.

The take home lesson for me in that is that you cannot get the Chinese to answer for the CPC as long as the people are kept happy by the CPC. So if you want to spoil the CPC's party you have to do more drastic things. Making Chinese people unhappy is one method of causing worry to the CPC. How to do that is a different issue.

[Arjun]

I thank the Lord Jesus Christ and Buddha everyday, that so far, as of today, China is higher on the pecking order then India. I'm indeed thankful, that Chinese leaders, dispite of all the nasty things they've done, has the foresight to see that India would become a threat if not effectively checked and managed.

Now where have I heard that one before..? Aah here, Paki troll-speak after BRF drubbing: "I thank Allah every day of the year that Jinnah had the foresight and vision to realize that Muslims can never live under Brahmanistic, Hindu hegemony and that Hindus and Muslims are two separate nations. Thanks to Jinnah, we have built a higher, purer Islamic nation that will lead the globe in our purity."